Sneaking, Hiding, Camoflage and other such activities

[comanighttrain]

Hey guys, I have very little experiance of these subjects.

I am aware that modern ninjutsu dojo focus more on tai-jitsu, but does anyone actually retain knowledge on more obscure skills such as Sneaking, Hiding, Camoflage, Outdoor survival, Concealing things on your person, Deception, Escaping persuers and so on and so forth.

I know a little about a lot of these sorts of subjects, such as not using solid colours for camoflage/hiding (Jet black does not make you invisible at night etc), I know a little about surviving on not much outdoors (mainly water > food, shelter > food, deer hunting and dont eat "monks hood") etc.

Just wondering if anyone knows much about this in relation to ninjutsu or even not so, i think such skills are important for self preservation.

I also know that some ninja in ancient history hid inside the refuse(sewage) pit for quite a long time to assasinate a japanese officer of some sort, i cant remember the name or date of this, or even if it were true.

[Niten Ninja]

That's a legend. As far as I know, ninjutsu is taught as mainly theory rather than practice.

[Kennin]

Why do people always think you have to practice these things in order to train ninjutsu?
It's the same as if people felt obliged to study courtiership when going into the martial arts of the samurai.

[heretic888]

I also know that some ninja in ancient history hid inside the refuse(sewage) pit for quite a long time to assasinate a japanese officer of some sort, i cant remember the name or date of this, or even if it were true.

You seem to be referring to the death of Uesugi Kenshin here.

Legend has Kenshin's death attributed to a dwarven "ninja" sent by Oda Nobunaga that hid in his latrine for three days and then slayed him "from below" with a spear. As the story goes, the culprit was never captured.

However, it is my understanding that most historians don't put much weight into this story. Uesugi Kenshin was extremely ill and sickly in the months prior to his death, with many of his close retainers being extremely worrisome concerning his health. At one point, he wrote a haiku that seemed to indicate he had knowledge that he was dying. In addition, the man was something of an alcoholic. Turnbull discusses all this in some detail in his most recent publication on the ninja.

Occam's Razor reminds us not to needlessly multiply hypotheses. In this case, the most parsimonious explanation is that Uesugi Kenshin died of some kind of stomach cancer or ulcer. This is somewhat reminiscent of Ashikaga Yoshihisa, who died of pnemounia after a failed military campaign in Omi Province, but whose death was attributed to "ninja" assassins in some stories. I've even heard a few stories attributing Oda Nobunaga's death to "ninja" when, in actuality, he commited seppukku after being betrayed by Akechi Mitsuhide.

If we are to believe the words of historians like Turnbull, then there is actually very, very little in the way of actual historical evidence to tie the Iga/Koga "ninja" groups to the practice of assassination. In all cases, it pretty much seems to be examples of the aforementioned, in which legend and superstition attaches the "ninja" mystique to incidents that were far more mundane and believable in nature.

Laterz.

[Rasputin]

Why do people always think you have to practice these things in order to train ninjutsu?

Because, to the casual observer, sneaking around in the dark with pointy objects is what is cool about ninja. Blame the media. Oh, and Ashida Kim.

[comanighttrain]

Why do people always think you have to practice these things in order to train ninjutsu?
It's the same as if people felt obliged to study courtiership when going into the martial arts of the samurai.

Well if martial arts has taught me anything its that a diversity of skills is better than being great at one thing. So yeah, be great at hand to hand combat, focus on it in the dojo and train hard (you may as well, your probobly paying for it).

Aside from that though is it not good to have other skills? E.G. A good mma fight will trash any ninjutsu student in a straight up hand to hand fight, but if the ninja was to introduce say...a knife...or a blunt weapon, chances are the mma fighter will know NOTHING about how to hand the sitation and the roles will be reversed.

So lets say your being chased by a group of thugs (neds, yobs or whatever you want to call them) all the ninjutsu in the world doesnt beat a good burst of speed or some other escape route (hiding, climbing, id swim through a river to avoid a beatdown).

What attracted me to ninjutsu more was the diversity of skills seemed to be taught (escaping persuers, hiding,weapons training), i had an ebook on the subject that descibed escaping, hiding and concealed entry but i lost it and it was so long ago i dont remember much about it.

[Jason Chambers]

Aside from that though is it not good to have other skills? E.G. A good mma fight will trash any ninjutsu student in a straight up hand to hand fight,
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You know what they say about assumptions and complacency... ;)

If you really want to learn these types of skills, why don't you enlist in a special forces branch of the military? You'll get LOADS of training.

[Niten Ninja]

"Aside from that though is it not good to have other skills? E.G. A good mma fight will trash any ninjutsu student in a straight up hand to hand fight,"

Great logic there. An MMA fighter is someone who fights under MMA rules not a style. They are not mutually exclusive.

[comanighttrain]

"Aside from that though is it not good to have other skills? E.G. A good mma fight will trash any ninjutsu student in a straight up hand to hand fight,"

Great logic there. An MMA fighter is someone who fights under MMA rules not a style. They are not mutually exclusive.

True, but most MMA fighters come from a style that does indeed have a lot of lethal techniques. Even those that done do get taught some in mma. Without a weapon your really playing to the mma fighters game, dont be dumb, use a stick.

lmao @ jason chambers : I was actually in training for the marines for a while (our marines are more like your SEALS i think, as opposed to being general assault infantry like the US marines). Hence i do know a lot about a lot of subjects relating to survival, I never got sworn in due to my Father begging me not to go as i am an only child.

[gfys]

True, but most MMA fighters come from a style that does indeed have a lot of lethal techniques. Even those that done do get taught some in mma. Without a weapon your really playing to the mma fighters game, dont be dumb, use a stick.

lmao @ jason chambers : I was actually in training for the marines for a while (our marines are more like your SEALS i think, as opposed to being general assault infantry like the US marines). Hence i do know a lot about a lot of subjects relating to survival, I never got sworn in due to my Father begging me not to go as i am an only child.

There are lethal techniques in every martial art. I hate it when people automatically assume that MMA is better than anything else. Style is not the only thing that affects the outcome of a fight. I'm not even talking about just weapons. But hey, let's not have a pissing contest to see what art is better than what art. It really doesn't matter and is a moot point. And if you do know a lot about subjects relating to survival, why'd you say in your initial post that you didn't?

[Jason Chambers]

Keep on laughing... I am. :D

[comanighttrain]

when did i say i knew a lot about it? i said i knew about a lot about a lot of subjects relating to it. By which i meant i have a broad general knowledge on the subject but not much in depth knowledge.

to put an end to the flaming, does anyone actually have anything new to add to the subject or is everyone who reads this pretty unaware of anything but combative techniques?

[Don Roley]

You seem to be referring to the death of Uesugi Kenshin here.

Legend has Kenshin's death attributed to a dwarven "ninja" sent by Oda Nobunaga that hid in his latrine for three days and then slayed him "from below" with a spear. As the story goes, the culprit was never captured.

However, it is my understanding that most historians don't put much weight into this story.

To be quite clear, this theory does not seem to be discussed at all in Japan. The source in the West seems to be from Donn Draeger and his book on ninjutsu. His source for the 'legend' seems to be a Japanese comic book.

I would not say that this story even raises to the level of historical theory.

[Don Roley]

when did i say i knew a lot about it? i said i knew about a lot about a lot of subjects relating to it. By which i meant i have a broad general knowledge on the subject but not much in depth knowledge.

From where I stand, to say that you have any knowledge is false and a sign of egotism on your part.

To be blunt, you do not even know what sources are good and which are bad. You have never been a student of the art. You mix things from comic books and movies with a few tidbits of real info.

If you accept the fact that you know almost nothing about the subject and that what you think may be false, then you will have a great potential for growth. But I look at what you write above and see that you think you know something- and that will cause you to close your eyes to corrections and new info that you so desperatly need.

[The Nephilim]

True, but most MMA fighters come from a style that does indeed have a lot of lethal techniques.

Oooh should I rip him up for this?

Now which body orifice is this from? When a MMA fighter starts MMA from a style, terms come into play and they have to lose all the "killer techniques" just to compete. So kick, punch, grapple and look like a gay porn film in the UFC fights is all they can do.

But it was said. If you want to learn to hide, learn fieldcraft for outdoors survival and camoflage, go to the military. Be a seal and get clubbed in Alaska :laugh: Talk to Soulend. He knows people that can teach you. Or look up Ray Mears books and the SAS surival books.

[Niten Ninja]

True, but most MMA fighters come from a style that does indeed have a lot of lethal techniques. Even those that done do get taught some in mma. Without a weapon your really playing to the mma fighters game, dont be dumb, use a stick.

Not anymore than most styles. It is quite resonable to be both an MMA fighter and a taijutsu practitioner.


hate it when people automatically assume that MMA is better than anything else

MMA isn't a style. It's a rule set.


When a MMA fighter starts MMA from a style, terms come into play and they have to lose all the "killer techniques" just to compete. So kick, punch, grapple and look like a gay porn film in the UFC fights is all they can do.

I don't get it what exactly are these "killer" techniques. I've never bought that arguement. The things the rules outlaw are generally unneccesary things or desperation attacks.

[The Nephilim]

When you compare budo to MMA, you see that MMA has rules. Most are common sense like no eye gouging, groin shots and nerve attacks. It is making the sport that is MMA a watchable sporting event. With the referee controlling the fight so these "killer techniques" are not applied to the extent to place a competitor in danger, the risk of something going wrong is reduced.

Now budo does not have the rules like MMA. MMA people would love to have a budo competition fight where all the safety is taken away. I would love to see budo against MMA. I would like to see the look on a MMA fighter when you produce a Shinken and start to fight. But as MMA has Kokoro and Fudoshin, it lacks the budo aspect. Some will say that MMA has budo, but the element is removed to the point that it has as much relevence as budo has in Judo.

So when you get Muay Thai fighters coming on here saying that they have budo, we all snigger, point at the monitor and call them idiots at their lack of understanding. Budo is the Japanese warrior fighting form that stems from the military fighting on the battlefield. Budo has armour, weapons, explosives [depending on what form you fight with], spiritual and philisophical.

So when MMA fighters say they have techniques that are lethal, well, yeah... In the ring which is a confined space. But they are not trained for the budo side and the realisation of fight to survive. Fighters in MMA may come from a buso type background, but once they do MMA, they lose the style and become an eclectic compilation of skills. With MMA they fight to win within a controlled environment. Budo practitioners fight to get home, no matter what the cost is to that persons trying to kill you. MMA may be a great sport, but we don't do sport as taijutsu, we do it to make sure we dont have to have our family members crying at a graveside.

[comanighttrain]

Ok, we are going way off topic here.

Niten Ninja : thats true that someone can study Tai jitsu and MMA. Usually most mma fighters come from a background (whether that be TKD, Karate, muay thai or whatever. Bas Rutten is arguably the best example as he went TKD->Muay Thai->MMA) . So i agree, i see need to argue the point further eh?

The Nephilim : If you look at Niten's point you can see that a MMA fighter can still sue his old techniques, just because one does MMA does not mean one only does MMA....If i like to climb mountains does it mean i cant swim?
also, i amk getting some ray mears books, he seems to be quite reputable.

Don Roley : how do you even come to that conclusion? you dont know anything about me? what are you saying i dont know?

[Don Roley]

Don Roley : how do you even come to that conclusion? you dont know anything about me? what are you saying i dont know?

I know what you have written. And based on that, you really do not know anything worthy of mention. Do you want to try to say that you know something when you have not even studied the art and quote things from comic books?

[comanighttrain]

i was actually told about that by none other than a ninjutsu student.Even at that your drawing your conclusion from one piece of information.

Even more so, to say i know nothing worthy of mention is totally false.

[The Nephilim]

i was actually told about that by none other than a ninjutsu student.Even at that your drawing your conclusion from one piece of information.

And was he part of the X-kans or just another fake system that is still stuck in the 80's?


when martial arts are combined, they lose the core of that style. If they study a Koryu system then they can say that they are learning budo. But to adapt a fighting form does not mean including kicks from TKD and sticky hands from Wing Chun, you apply the theory of what it is needed for the now. What was before is still a part of today in learning. MMA has lost the core of what MMA was intended to be. The UFC wanted fighters from systems to see who was the best fighters of that style. Since they found out Gracies were winning a lot of the fights, people started to mix their own style with another, dropped some practices and kept what was thought was good. They lost their roots in style and became a spectator sport.

So to learn the escape, outdoors they have dropped the other parts of the sytems to make it more sport and now more MMA. So the books like Mears and Lofty who wrote the SAS survival (pocket) books, if fighters began to learn that, they are relearning what their sytem may have had and are returning to their core system. That what is IMO, MMA. Not the sport, but the Fighting form away from the ring and in the real envoronments.

[comanighttrain]

[QUOTE=The Nephilim]And was he part of the X-kans or just another fake system that is still stuck in the 80's?
[QUOTE]

Nope, bujinkan...or bunjikan...im not too keen on the spelling.

It was a long time ago.

[Niten Ninja]

When you compare budo to MMA,

Budo!?! That's japanese for martial way. They are not comparible.


you see that MMA has rules. Most are common sense like no eye gouging, groin shots and nerve attacks.

Eye gouging and groin shots are desperation attacks, if your style centres on those then your style is flawed. Nerve attacks aren't banned as far as I know, their just not very good. I've seen a number of examples that suggest with adrenaline pumping groin shots stop working alot.


It is making the sport that is MMA a watchable sporting event. With the referee controlling the fight so these "killer techniques" are not applied to the extent to place a competitor in danger, the risk of something going wrong is reduced.

Yeah?


Now budo does not have the rules like MMA.

judo and kendo, two budo, two sets of rules.


MMA people would love to have a budo competition fight where all the safety is taken away.

That's probably true.


I would love to see budo against MMA.

Budo= martial arts MMA=mixed martial arts... right.


I would like to see the look on a MMA fighter when you produce a Shinken and start to fight.

What point are you trying to prove? MMA is to test peoples unarmed skills.


But as MMA has Kokoro and Fudoshin, it lacks the budo aspect. Some will say that MMA has budo, but the element is removed to the point that it has as much relevence as budo has in Judo.

Budo aspect? judo is budo.


So when you get Muay Thai fighters coming on here saying that they have budo,

When?


we all snigger, point at the monitor and call them idiots at their lack of understanding.

Where? I've never heard of a Muay Thai fighter saying that.


Budo is the Japanese warrior fighting form that stems from the military fighting on the battlefield. Budo has armour, weapons, explosives [depending on what form you fight with], spiritual and philisophical.

Then most budo aren't budo... genius.


So when MMA fighters say they have techniques that are lethal, well, yeah... In the ring which is a confined space.

No not in the ring if they were lethal in the ring then people would die.


But they are not trained for the budo side and the realisation of fight to survive.

lots of budo isn't for survival, and many MMA fighters do so for survival.


Fighters in MMA may come from a budo type background, but once they do MMA, they lose the style and become an eclectic compilation of skills.

So? why does it matter? This is taijutsu, if it isn't an eclectic style then nothing else is.


With MMA they fight to win within a controlled environment. Budo practitioners fight to get home, no matter what the cost is to that persons trying to kill you.

Rubbish. You have a very odd idea of budo.


MMA may be a great sport, but we don't do sport as taijutsu, we do it to make sure we dont have to have our family members crying at a graveside.

A very poor excuse.


when martial arts are combined, they lose the core of that style.

So Takamatsu, Hatsumi and Tanemura are all guilty of destroying the core of their styles.


What was before is still a part of today in learning. MMA has lost the core of what MMA was intended to be.

As far as I can tell, that was effectively to give the Gracies a forum to show how good they were...


Since they found out Gracies were winning a lot of the fights, people started to mix their own style with another, dropped some practices and kept what was thought was good.

Like many koryu style have done in the past.


They lost their roots in style and became a spectator sport.

Great logic, destroyed their styles inexchange for being alot better and more effective... how terrible.


Not the sport, but the Fighting form away from the ring and in the real envoronments.

So how exactly do you train that is so much more realistic?

[The Nephilim]

Judo is not budo. It lost the budo aspect when the originator of Judo took out the main parts of the fighting system due to the high rate of injury. The entire aspect of Judo was lost from that point and is no longer a budo system. Even the non competative sport side of Judo is not budo. Look into Judo history and tell me that I am not right.

As for the Takamatsuden, Yes Soke Takamatsu learned the ninpo system as well as Karate like Kukishinden and Koto. But they were Koryu systems. The linage is nearly or just over 1,000 years. You know this as you train in the Gendai ninpo budo. Some systems of jujutsu are not Koryu as they evolved after the end of the Edo period. They say Kendo is Koryu but that came after the reformation and abolition of the Samurai warrior class system. So by making a new system has no Koryu and is not traditional. The MMA crowd claim to be budo but it is so far removed you need a radio telescope to see their history and linage. MMA is just the new MA style to be seen in, same as Kung Fu in the 70's, Karate in the 80's, ninjas in the 80's as well and Kickboxing in the 90's.

As Marylyn Manson sang "This is the new sh*t". We all follow the best thing that we all see and want to try, but everyone knows, deep down the Koryu systems will always remain regardless of how popular Colture is and if Bravo has the rights to the Ultimate Fighter for TV airing. One day MMA will just be the fad that it is with fighters being like the kickboxers of yesterday. We all have the great UFC, Pride and K1. But when that interest dies, the Koryu systems will still be around teaching the skills of Budo like this actual thread aspect is.

[Niten Ninja]

Judo is not budo. It lost the budo aspect when the originator of Judo took out the main parts of the fighting system due to the high rate of injury.

No he didn't. He kept them in the way they'd always been, He simply didn't allow them in Randori. I think you'll find it is budo. Come on do some research, that's basic history.


The entire aspect of Judo was lost from that point and is no longer a budo system. Even the non competative sport side of Judo is not budo. Look into Judo history and tell me that I am not right.

You're about as wrong as it is possible to be.


As for the Takamatsuden, Yes Soke Takamatsu learned the ninpo system as well as Karate like Kukishinden and Koto. But they were Koryu systems.

So? Why does being a koryu make it automatically better than anything else?


The linage is nearly or just over 1,000 years.

Right... of course... because samurai don't lie...


You know this as you train in the Gendai ninpo budo.

Doesn't mean I believe it.


Some systems of jujutsu are not Koryu as they evolved after the end of the Edo period.

So what are they if not budo?


They say Kendo is Koryu but that came after the reformation and abolition of the Samurai warrior class system.

No, no one but you says kendo is koryu.


So by making a new system has no Koryu and is not traditional.

So? if it's a japanese MA it's budo.


The MMA crowd claim to be budo

No actually I've never heard an MMA fighter say them were budo.


But when that interest dies, the Koryu systems will still be around teaching the skills of Budo like this actual thread aspect is.

As will judo as will kendo as will aikido and so on. These are budo whether you like it or not.

[Don Roley]

Even more so, to say i know nothing worthy of mention is totally false.

You see, that is the mind set that will get in the way of you ever learning anything.

It is very obvious from what you write that you know nothing worthy of mention. If you accept that what you know may not be what you think it is and look at the subject of ninjutsu with new eyes, then you can learn a gret deal.

But if you let your ego push you into trying to convince yourself and others that you are knowledgeable, then you will close your eyes to all the stuff you need to learn. I have seen it happen. People with mistaken impressions about this art come in, can't let go of their fantasy and mistaken impressions and end up not learning a thing before wandering off to become a soke- dokey themselves. :rolleyes:

I don't want that to happen to you. You still can learn if you can admit that you need to learn.

[TonyU]

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