KiAi - as related to BuDo and/or KARATE

[CEB]

The KiAi thread........

Have at it.

Got to go to the hospital and see Dad. I will be back sometime later.

[Gene Williams]

So, Ed, are you playing "let's you and him argue?" :D

[CEB]

No. Doesn't matter. Looks like there is no interest in the subject.

I'm curious how different Ryuha view the subject.

The formative cultural influences on the practice of Kiaijutsu could make for some interesting conjecture if nothing else.

But that is OK.

[AllanJGAnderson]

Kihap (as they're called in Korean MA's) are vital I think. They make break-falling easier, but not allowing you to get the wind knocked out of you. And they can easily intimidate someone not assosiated with martial arts

[jabonn]

In Uechi we do not Kiai during kata. In Sport Judo we would kiai to gain the ref's attention to show that we initiated the throw and have a better chance of getting the point. Personally I do not kiai in tournament judo.

[Jared Sutton]

Kihap (as they're called in Korean MA's) are vital I think. They make break-falling easier, but not allowing you to get the wind knocked out of you. And they can easily intimidate someone not assosiated with martial arts

What he said as to my dojangs philosophy.

[Gene Williams]

Once again, as Ed said, kiai is not the yell. The yell is just a method for developing kiai. I don't think students develop true kiai for a long, long, time.
Aikido is probably the art in which you develop it the quickest, but it isn't about being in a hurry, either.

[Jared Sutton]

I guess I didn't read the latter. Though I have been told that the kihap is good for intimidation as well, I teach not to work the vocal box and let it come from the core. If a student is screaming or the kihap is a prolonged, "Kiiiiyaaaa!", I will usually point it out for correction.

[Gene Williams]

Why do the TKD guys follow us around to the karate forum?

[Gordon Nore]

Once again, as Ed said, kiai is not the yell. The yell is just a method for developing kiai. I don't think students develop true kiai for a long, long, time. Aikido is probably the art in which you develop it the quickest, but it isn't about being in a hurry, ither.

Agreed. I alluded to this in another thread on breathing and kata: look up kiai and kihap in the online glossaries of many MA websites. They often use the translation, spirit shout, shout, yell, etc. However, this interpretation of the characters would suggest that the arts Hapkido and Aikido translate as the way of shouting, yelling, etc. However, the arts themselves are often translated as the way of coordinated power, the way of harmonious energy, etc.

Thus we are taught that kiai and kihap mean, simply, focused energy, which has nothing to do with shouting. As I suggested in this other thread, I might be more inclined to kiai loudly if I'm breaking, hitting. The kiai I use is less audible when I'm holding the shield or taking ukemi.

Therefore, I do not beleve the shout makes the practitioner stronger. After all, shouts can be high-pitched, from the throat. It is the depth from which the kiai is drawn that provides its power.

And that's all I have to say about Kiai/Kihap.
Forest Gump

[Gene Williams]

In many traditional Japanese ryu, the basic "kiai' are as follows: "Hei!" is the vocalization of the attacker; "Ha!" is the vocalization of the counter-attacker, and "Ho!" is the vocalization at the completion of a technique. I have not known these specific "kiai" to be used deliberately in karate. They are generally found in certain koryu. Yabusame has some very complex kiai, and I have heard ryu specific kiai in some koryu jujutsu.

Some karate ryu do not yell at all, but most do encourage a vocalization in kata and during a decisive technique. The sound is, to some extent, left up to the practitioner, but I have insisted upon some students changing what I considered to be a sub-standard or sissy sounding yell. :D The kiai should come with the normal exhalation as the technique is done, and it should be loud...not to scare the opponent but to fully express energy and power into the target. It should represent an instant of kime and extreme zanshin. It may appear fierce to observers, but this should not be the goal of the practitioner. The vocalization is neither fierce, nor wild, nor anything else...it should be empty. By that I mean, it should not have cognitive content (e.g. "I really want to make this sound fierce."). Kata should be done as "mushin." So, the "kiai" is a by product of all the things kata is supposed to be-relaxed, focused, powerful, in a word, "shibui."

"Kiai" exists in every moment and every movement of kata. You do not yell on every movement. One or two vocalizations in a kata is enough. Seniors, if you do not yell at all, it is ok...unless you aren't convincing anyone through your performance of the kata that you have kiai. Then your sensei will insist you yell because you have to act yourself into kiai by such means.

I insist on vocalization points in kata through the Pinan, usually the last move down the embusen first time and last move of the kata. After that, I tell my students that the kata should pull a kiai from you somewhere. You just let it happen. I do not always vocalize in the same place when I practice kata; it just happens somewhere.

During class, I will often tell the class to "kiai' on every punch. I count in a very loud voice, sometimes growling out the count or doing kiai myself as I count. One of my students said my counting sounds like I am punching...good. This gets junior students used to noise and makes them less self-conscious about vocalizing. I do not train with the class; you cannot do that and teach properly. But, I conduct the class in the same spirit as when I train and do kata. Students do not need to see a sensei strolling around with his hands hooked in his obi doing halfassed counts and watery techniques. They do not need a sensei who spends half the class time lecturing about some BS theory of why something is done. They need lots of hands on correction, lots of spirited "encouragement," and lots of repetition. Mostly what the sensei should hear is the rustle and pop of canvas, the shuffle of feet on the mat, and his count (in Japanese, please) followed by "kiai." :bow:

[Dale Lackey]

We do kiai pretty much like Gene does, i believe. I'm currently still learning Heian and we do 3 to 4 Kiai per kata or should i say the yell, centered in the stomach and taught to be personal. For awhile, especially when doing bag work i would hold my breath so for few months i did a small yell to force air out of my lungs as i strike. Teaching method mostly, i don't do it very often now. Perhaps off the subject but it reminds me of tennis players, especially women nowdays and their yelling as they swing. Is it the yell that makes the swing harder or just the fact that you exhale properly?

[don]

Aikido is probably the art in which you develop it the quickest, but it isn't about being in a hurry, either.

Interesting. Why do you say so?

Thanks.

[moogong]

Why do the TKD guys follow us around to the karate forum?

Come on now, Gene...do I gotta start linking all the posts you put in the TKD section??? :up:

[Gene Williams]

Come on now, Gene...do I gotta start linking all the posts you put in the TKD section??? :up:

I've only gone there when the Okinawan kata were being discussed, for the most part, or when there was some karate discussion. I never pretended to know anything about TKD or TSD. :)

[Gene Williams]

Interesting. Why do you say so?

Thanks.

Hi Don, I have never trained in aikido, but I do have a friend in aikido (George Kennedy in Atlanta) under Kanai who has been teaching and training for years. I asked him if I could bring all my dan up for them to see what aikido was since there was so much BS pretending to be aikido. This turned into about 4 months of Saturdays for 4 hours with him and his seniors "showing" us what aikido is. He mostly taught us ukemi and tenkan/irimi, then he taught us gokyo. He was very generous to do this for a bunch of "karate thugs." :D We did not learn much aikido, but we got a feel for the spirit of the art and met some fine people and excellent martial artists. We certainly improved the quality of our ukemi.
I saw immediately that "kiai" comes more quickly because you always have a partner to work off of. There really is something to the "aiki" part of "kiai." The structure of aikido is such that you have constant and immediate feedback, and you are forced to adapt to your uke's force and motion in ways karate cannot match. We develop kiai largely through kata and the partner work involved in bunkai. In aikido, every technique is a mini-kata between two people. Quite a difference.
Aikido is much harder to learn than karate, but I believe the kiai comes quicker.

[AllanJGAnderson]

In HapKiDo I've noticed that we tend to have a lower, near-growling kihap, as opposed to the higher pitched sounds of TKD guys. I don't know if this is just what I've noticed but I've heard other people talk about Ki arts tending to have a lower, through-the-teeth kind of Kihap. Any opinions?

[Gene Williams]

In HapKiDo I've noticed that we tend to have a lower, near-growling kihap, as opposed to the higher pitched sounds of TKD guys. I don't know if this is just what I've noticed but I've heard other people talk about Ki arts tending to have a lower, through-the-teeth kind of Kihap. Any opinions?


It isn't about the sound. Seriously, why don't you take the Hapkido/TKD stuff to that forum?

[Jeff C.]

Gene, I think you gave a great answer. You and Ed are absolutely correct in stating that kiai is not a vocalization. It annoys me to no end to hear people say they "do kiai's" during their kata, or that they "kiai" when they punch, as if "kiai" is some sort of action verb, rather than a state of energy. When I hear someone actually shout the word "kiai" during a kata, I want to choke them out.

Kiai IS aiki, and aiki IS kiai. It is really that simple.

Oh, and just for you Gene: TKD=Korean "karate" ;)

Jeff Cook

[AllanJGAnderson]

I apologize masta' I didn' knows I wasn supposta leave da Korean martial arts forums. I's gonna try real ha'd to stay in dere next time.

[Gene Williams]

Your comments and smartass phrasing seem racist to me. I got suspended for 3 months for what were construed as "racist" comments about Katrina. If I was hijacking threads over in the TKD forum, I'd get fussed at by Robert or Tony. Maybe you are special because you are just a young punk. I don't know, just a guess.

[Jeff C.]

Good point, Gene. All, the thread is titled "Kiai - as related to budo and KARATE. Please keep your comments and/or questions on topic. Thanks.

And no, Gene, he is not "special." He's probably not a "punk," either. I just caught up to this thread.

Jeff Cook

[AllanJGAnderson]

I apologize, and in retrospect my comment was out of line. I was only trying to get some feedback, though. I feel that one thing that makes this site so worth while, is the fact that martial artists from different styles CAN discuss these kind of things and get multiple viewpoints, expanding everyones knowledge and understanding.
Apologies :bow:

[rgoad]

The shout is mostly a training method for developing the ki-ai (hyphen for emphasis). There are external benefits that range from startling the opponent, to focusing oneself. But I am convinced the shout is actually a beginner’s tool for developing the kiai.

If one makes the shout from the bowels and low in the abdomen, even the thighs, one tenses all sorts of muscles that may not get much use on a conscious level. The sphincters for the bowels, the muscles on the floor of the abdomen in front of the anus and anterior to the genitals, the muscle set used in the ‘Kegel’ exercises are all used. They may flex at once or almost spasmodically at first, but with focus effort and awareness they can be flexed in a coordinated manner. As the willful ability to access these muscles is developed, just like one develops muscles in the hand and forearm to hold guitar chords without looking at the neck of the guitar, the ability to make adjustments to one’s body that help with good posture and body mechanics becomes second nature and can occur on the fly. (No pun intended, Gene.)

This detailed body awareness manifests itself as balance and apparent increase in strength. The apparent increase in strength is due to the ability to place the body quickly into a good posture (as long as you know what that posture is). It may appear to be a tensing of the body, but is actually the sudden movement of the body into a good position for the effort. Any good athlete does this in action sports.

The active mental awareness of the body and the ability to rapidly focus mental effort and muscle control is, in my personal opinion based on personal experience, what is often described as ‘ki’. The Chinese say they ‘chi follows the yi’ or the ki follows the intent. Just as a relaxed but alert muscle will react faster than one that is under tension, the mind can react faster if it is in a relaxed state of awareness. Its range of reaction is improved in a manner similar to the muscle in that it is better able to do a task it has been trained to do. So the mind that has developed awareness and control of muscle groups through repeated training is more able to reach and control those muscle groups quickly and effectively than one that has never or only infrequently done it. The audible kiai is the start of this kind of training as a tool to help beginners use those muscle sets.

As one performs kata and exercises the kiai one should be able to set the postures and stances more cleanly and effectively by use of the mental control of the muscles developed by kiai. The use of the inaudible kiai during a form, e.g. Seisan, that requires body motions for stance transition that are not telegraphed by large body movements, helps keep movement subtle and balance well grounded.

Advanced practitioners will perform kiai in forms where required and other times as well, so it is not for beginners only. However, truly advanced people will have a controlled kiai at all times in practice that manifests itself as continuous strong spirit and yet is not exhaustive.

[Gordon Nore]

"Kiai" exists in every moment and every movement of kata. You do not yell on every movement. One or two vocalizations in a kata is enough. Seniors, if you do not yell at all, it is ok...unless you aren't convincing anyone through your performance of the kata that you have kiai. Then your sensei will insist you yell because you have to act yourself into kiai by such means.
Thank you for your posts in this thread, Gene. This, in particular, helped see an aspect of Kiai that I was missing, but that I didn't know I was missing. Jeff C. and also echoed this sentiment.

...kiai is not a vocalization. It annoys me to no end to hear people say they "do kiai's" during their kata, or that they "kiai" when they punch, as if "kiai" is some sort of action verb, rather than a state of energy.
I kept those two thoughts in the forefront of my mind when I was training last night.
:bow:

[Gene Williams]

Thank you for your posts in this thread, Gene. This, in particular, helped see an aspect of Kiai that I was missing, but that I didn't know I was missing. Jeff C. and also echoed this sentiment.

I kept those two thoughts in the forefront of my mind when I was training last night.
:bow:

Well, I'm glad it helped. It is best not to think about it too much and just let it develop over time. It will. :bow:

[Gordon Nore]

Well, I'm glad it helped. It is best not to think about it too much and just let it develop over time. It will. :bow:

No, Gene. I will recite each night before bed and when I get up in the morning until it is ingrained and mastered. I'm on a tight timeline for achieving my next goal -- soke by age 50! :laugh:

[Gene Williams]

The shout is mostly a training method for developing the ki-ai (hyphen for emphasis). There are external benefits that range from startling the opponent, to focusing oneself. But I am convinced the shout is actually a beginner’s tool for developing the kiai.

If one makes the shout from the bowels and low in the abdomen, even the thighs, one tenses all sorts of muscles that may not get much use on a conscious level. The sphincters for the bowels, the muscles on the floor of the abdomen in front of the anus and anterior to the genitals, the muscle set used in the ‘Kegel’ exercises are all used. They may flex at once or almost spasmodically at first, but with focus effort and awareness they can be flexed in a coordinated manner. As the willful ability to access these muscles is developed, just like one develops muscles in the hand and forearm to hold guitar chords without looking at the neck of the guitar, the ability to make adjustments to one’s body that help with good posture and body mechanics becomes second nature and can occur on the fly. (No pun intended, Gene.)

This detailed body awareness manifests itself as balance and apparent increase in strength. The apparent increase in strength is due to the ability to place the body quickly into a good posture (as long as you know what that posture is). It may appear to be a tensing of the body, but is actually the sudden movement of the body into a good position for the effort. Any good athlete does this in action sports.

The active mental awareness of the body and the ability to rapidly focus mental effort and muscle control is, in my personal opinion based on personal experience, what is often described as ‘ki’. The Chinese say they ‘chi follows the yi’ or the ki follows the intent. Just as a relaxed but alert muscle will react faster than one that is under tension, the mind can react faster if it is in a relaxed state of awareness. Its range of reaction is improved in a manner similar to the muscle in that it is better able to do a task it has been trained to do. So the mind that has developed awareness and control of muscle groups through repeated training is more able to reach and control those muscle groups quickly and effectively than one that has never or only infrequently done it. The audible kiai is the start of this kind of training as a tool to help beginners use those muscle sets.

As one performs kata and exercises the kiai one should be able to set the postures and stances more cleanly and effectively by use of the mental control of the muscles developed by kiai. The use of the inaudible kiai during a form, e.g. Seisan, that requires body motions for stance transition that are not telegraphed by large body movements, helps keep movement subtle and balance well grounded.

Advanced practitioners will perform kiai in forms where required and other times as well, so it is not for beginners only. However, truly advanced people will have a controlled kiai at all times in practice that manifests itself as continuous strong spirit and yet is not exhaustive.

Again, I think we are running into the danger of over-analysis here. These things do happen, but you shouldn't try to make them happen. If you train properly, they will develop over time.

[rgoad]

Again, I think we are running into the danger of over-analysis here. These things do happen, but you shouldn't try to make them happen. If you train properly, they will develop over time.Fair enough. My main point is that Kiai is, as you said, not a shout. There is a lot more to look for and, taken in small bits, can be used as metrics to measure progress. The shout is a 'tool'.

[TonyU]

The shout is a 'tool'.
I don't know, I think the aiki in the kiai is a tool. The shout, vocalization, or kiai is a byproduct.

[CEB]

So AiKi is KiAi ? ...... That sounds neat.

[Gene Williams]

So AiKi is KiAi ? ...... That sounds neat.

They do kinda' have something to do with each other.

[rgoad]

I don't know, I think the aiki in the kiai is a tool. The shout, vocalization, or kiai is a byproduct.The shout is a tool like your makawara. Do the shout type kiai and pay attention to how your body responds. As you repeat it intentionally try to feel and use different parts of your body.

When you train stepping forward you tuck you hips and watch your posture, etc. As you get better at it you notice an improvement in power and stability. The shout helps people activate muscles that are hard to consciously reach for most people. As you exercise them you can play with the shout to feel the different sets of muslces.

Since kiai is not the shout itself as you get better at feeling and activating the muscles you won't need to shout, although at times it can still be used.

[CEB]

Sure they are related .....

.....
Kiai IS aiki, and aiki IS kiai. It is really that simple.
.....

Go is Ju...Ju is Go...Hard is Soft...Soft is Hard...Black is White...White is Black. Sounds really good.

Why the differentiation between Goho and Juho jutsu? If all this stuff is the same?

[Gene Williams]

Those are very good questions :) "Ju yoku go o sei-suru." :bow:


Possum Valley...isn't that in California?

[CEB]

Hey Ju Yoku Go o Seiseru is printed on my giant 3 ring binder where I keep all my Karate notes.....No joke.

The Soft conquers the Hard

Anti-Viagra I guess.

[Gene Williams]

Great minds think alike, Ed. Hey, ever tried playing pool with a rope? :D

[kohai]

gene, you mentioned something earlier about "complex kiai".... i was wondering if you could elaborate?

thanks :bow:

[Jeff C.]

Ed, I am not trying to "sound neat." I am trying to simplify something which ALWAYS gets over-talked. Thus my short answer. They both embody a concept of energy integration, the only difference being the source/direction of that energy. But the integration process is the same. There is nothing profound, or profoundly different, between harmonizing with an attacker's energy or harmonizing your energy to project outwards.

Please excuse my cynicism.

Jeff Cook

[TEA]

Oh, and just for you Gene: TKD=Korean "karate" ;)

Jeff Cook

I thought Karate was Okinawan TKD. :rolleyes: :t2: It was transmited to Okinawa by Paekche refugees when Paekche was conquered by Silla, just after Paekche colonized Japan and founded the so-called imperial family. :laugh:

[Gene Williams]

I thought Karate was Okinawan TKD. :rolleyes: :t2: It was transmited to Okinawa by Paekche refugees when Paekche was conquered by Silla, just after Paekche colonized Japan and founded the so-called imperial family. :laugh:


:D Well, guess what? You are pitifully ignorant, Dogi Breath! Karate and TKD were invented by Chuck Norris in hopes that an opponent worthy of him would develop. To date, this has not happened, so Chuck invented Dillman so we could all have some fun. Ha, ha. Anyway, he is now bored with Dillman and will eliminate him with a no touch roundhouse kick. At this point, Chuck is considering destroying karate, TKD, Okinawa, and Japan with a roundhouse kick. Then he will go eat a steak and eliminate Iran's nuclear program. He is thinking about using a backfist instead of a roundhouse kick.

[Yang Wei Xin]

He is thinking about using a backfist instead of a roundhouse kick.
Now I know your lying, chuck only uses roundhouse kicks.

[Gene Williams]

Now I know your lying, chuck only uses roundhouse kicks.


Well, I said he was only thinking about it...