Purpose of Breaking

[Battousai]

Following up on my previous post about Breaking;

There is a fundamental question as to the point of Tamashi Wari (breaking training, (Japanese)). It can seem like breaking a board or any sort of material has little relevance to striking real live people. How applicable is such a methodology that approximates materials like wood and stone to human bodies?
I don't think the comparison of the human body to other materials ever was, or ever is, the essential value of Tamashi Wari. Definitely breaking materials is a very poor approximation to hitting a person. But I think that thoughts along this line are a fallacy and are not along the line of the true purpose and value of Tamashi Wari.

For me, and it took me awhile to see this, breaking things have very little to do with the actual breaking of them. Rather it has everything to do with the amount of force applied.
Tamashi Wari is not about training to be able to break large piles of hard substances. Its primarily about force output, and by force output I don't mean trying to maximize the force in a strike. Increasing the strength in striking is a fine thing, but Tamashi Wari training has nothing to do with that.
Breaking is about applying a specific amount of force to a substance to break it and hopefully nothing exceeding that amount. Its all about learning how to strike with varying force. Its main concern is the controling of the power of the strike. Such that the practitioner has total control over the amount of energy leaving the body.
Beyond this, there is a conditioning aspect to the striking surfaces. Jawbones and knees may be approximated much more accurately to hard materials then other areas like the diaphram.


Now it could be asked why would anyone want to hit someone with less then the maximum amount of force possible? The best answer is conservation of strength. These martial arts were designed in feudal nations, meaning that hand to hand (weapon to weapon) combat was the primary means of warfare. When you are in a battle against hundreds and thousands of people, that could last anywere from an hour to many hours, conservation of strength is what's going to keep you alive and able to kill.
A modern day illustration would be fighting a group of people. If you have to go through 10 to 20 guys, hitting each one with maximum force, how strong are your strikes going to be by the time you get to the last one?
Besides the fact that strikes done correctly and targeted correctly need no where near full power to incapacitate most foes, strikes done at full power are very lethel and while this was not as great a concern in feudal times, its a very real concern today.

I think that the most skillful way to break something is with the least possible amount of energy. For example a hanging board, breaking it so that the broken piece of the board falls straight down would be the most skillful strike. Breaking it so that the piece flys through the air in a downward arch is the easiest way.

I believe that training to break the greatest amount of material misses out on the whole point of breaking in the first place. It is much more beneficial for students to break just 1 board over and over again, learning how much force is needed, then it is to just sit a stack in front of them and constantly drive them to break larger and larger piles. Breaking a constant amount of material, over and over again until you know exactly how much force should be applied to break it, that is the greatest training in my opinion.


Breaking has gotten labeled as a means of gauging strength and martial skill, but it should never be used as such in a training environment. The one who can break the most is not necessarily the greatest.
I would think the purpose of breaking things in public consists of wowing a crowd and gathering attention. Which isn't a bad thing (as long as spacer's are not used, LOL).

All this being said, there is a very real danger involved in Tamashi Wari. If the strikes are not done correctly bones can be broken.
As stated in the other post about breaking, tremendous confidence can be gained when kids get to break things. And when supervised, the risk of injury is drastically reduced. Statistacally I would bet that most injuries in breaking are due to oversized ego's breaking by themselves on their own and then for of public glorification.

[RA Miller]

Eddie-

Two points. Conserving energy in a mass combat looks fine on paper, but the simple fact is that anyone who is not dealt with thoroughly right away will have to be dealt with again later, and that takes much more energy and, even more precious, time.

Few of my students break. The small amount that do, usually do it once. It always starts with a student, usually small and female, who confides, "I'm not sure I could ever hit a big man hard enough to hurt him."

So I say, "Let's break a brick." And they do. If a person has decent basics it takes about five minutes to show them how to break a brick and it is a huge confidence builder.

Thta, for me, is the purpose of tameshewara- a confidence builder for insecure students.

Rory

[Bad Karma]

Let em ask this, then...

Rory, since you are familiar with swords, what is the association with sword cuts and breaking? I recently saw a magazine cover with a guy cutting a concrete block with a $17,000 Katana. I have also seen several swords cutting through the rolled up "thingies." I'm not into weapons, so I've no clue what those "thingies" are called. either way, there must be some association of worth between breaking things while unarmed and cutting things while armed - right?

Peace

[jabonn]

what is the association with sword cuts and breaking?

Iaido uses the Tatami to guage their cuts. They will look at angle, how clean the cut was, and was it at the correct height. The Tatami are rolled up and soaked in water for a day. They are placed on stands for cutting. - Cutting is used to guage Martial Skill.


So I say, "Let's break a brick." And they do. If a person has decent basics it takes about five minutes to show them how to break a brick and it is a huge confidence builder. We use this method as well, only use wood instead of bricks. 2X2, 2X4, 1' pine boards, and baseball bats.


Breaking has gotten labeled as a means of gauging strength and martial skill, but it should never be used as such in a training environment. The one who can break the most is not necessarily the greatest.

You are right breaking is not about strength, but it is about conditioning. I would never take a 2X2 or 2X4 across my shin unless I have attained a certian amount of skill. Understanding how and what was going to happen. This helped prevent accidents and injuries. I still get injured as I progress in the types of breaks and what I break. If I can break two pine boards with a Boshken (Thumb Strike), then I have no doubt that I can break a collar bone, or seperate the ribs with it.

[Kimpatsu]

Personally, I think breaking is a waste of time. If you use breaking as a confidence builder, you're implying that force is still required to knock a person down. (It isn't.) It would be better to show your small woman that accuracy and angle count for more. Body weight supplies the force required.
Sword cutting used to be performed on live bodies as well as tatami, to determine how sharp the blade was, among other things.
Best,

[Jeff C.]

Breaking stationary, inanimate objects in my opinion has nothing to do with combat utility. Learning to break non-moving objects is not necessary to teach any facet of fighting. And there are health risks involved in engaging in such activity. Therefore, I have to ask myself, if it is not a necessary tool to improve combat utility, and the practice of it carries risks, then why do it?

Breaking can be used to teach such things as confidence, but I can think of many other healthier less-risky ways to do the same thing.

Comparing breaking a collar bone to breaking a brick or board is not a directly valid comparison. Breaking a collar bone is infinitely easier, AND infinitely harder, than breaking a board. Collar bones are very thin and fragile. A child with no training can break one that isn't moving. Collar bones also move around quite a bit, as they are attached to a resisting opponent who is presumably hitting back, and therefore are somewhat difficult to make contact with.

Also, breaking bones is not necessary to stop an opponent, and VERY FREQUENTLY DOES NOT STOP ONE ANYWAY! I would rather learn how to dislocate joints, separate cartilage, skeletally lock up a pain-impervious opponent or render him unconcious, strike repeatedly to soft vital areas, than to try to focus my energies on breaking a 2x4 across my head. ;)

I have done the breaking-thing a long time ago. I suppose if I had 24 hours a day to train myself and my students, I might take some valuable training time and play around with it again. But training time is at a premium. and breaking is at the bottom of my list of priorities.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[JudoSamurai]

one prob




-Bricks dont hit back...
-bloodsport

Sincerly,
JudoSamurai

[LEFTHOOK]

I do not teach breaking. I do not see the relationship with breaking concerning the sport or self defence aspects of my arts. But what I do see breaking doing is building discipline. I remember back when I was breaking boards in Tae kwon do and goju karate the first few times doing it it took some inner soal searching to convince myself to strike a board, It never really gave me confidence as far as knocking someone out but it did make me learn to over come my fears of hurting myself and not giving into those fears.

[Venom]

breaking has taught me one thing (well, two, and both sometimes dont apply, but hey, they do at times!); go through what you intend to break, and mind over matter makes sense

[ninja sensei]

when you stike trough a board you shoud
aim your force ten centimeter on the other side of the board

but you don't have to have boards to train this
aim your fore ten centimeter behind the sandbag
when you hit it in traing.

tameski is about perfecting your swordcuts

cut in the right way and cut trough the bambu staff
for example.

[Jeff Burger]

We do very little breaking.

Some for confidence but Id have to say the biggest thing we do with breaking is demos.
We can come out a do some basics and kata and even some self defense stuff.
The crowd seems to like the breaking the best.

We are a non profit organization and we get tax dedeuctable donations from people.
So we get ourselves seen in the public.
We do various shows for various events for our own fund raisers and for others we feel are doing good thigns for the community.

Jeff

[Ron Rompen]

Just my humble opinion, FWIW:

My sensei teaches breaking, and features it during some of our demonstrations. Having said that, there is NO pressure (hidden or otherwise) to do this.

I have broken bricks, slates, and boards (as well as a few bones in my hand but thats ANOTHER story), and having done all this, I can say with some authority that it is NOT the same as hitting a person.

Breaking of any kind is done under very controlled conditions, with lots of preparation (physical and mental). It bears (as far as I can tell) no relationship to real-world encounters or threats (unless you plan on being attacked by a treant).

But it is FUN! And a great confidence-builder for those who think they 'can't hit hard enough' (as someone else pointed out). It takes suprisingly little effort to break a properly supported board, and not a lot more to break a brick.

[Jeff C.]

Ninja Sensei,

When you say "tameski" do you mean "tameshigiri?" Not familiar with that term.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[wab25]

While I agree that breaking boards and bricks gives you very little in terms of "real world" fighting ability, I feel it does have some useful lessons to teach. First, is mind over matter. Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right. The next thing it teaches, is relaxation. Most people naturally tense up to hit something hard. In order to generate the most force, you need to relax. Finally, it teaches you how to deal with pressure. If you use bad form, you will very likely get hurt. There are usually people watching you. You are in a position where you need to deal with pressure and fear of getting hurt, and at the same time relax and execute perfect form. Yes, all these things can be learned in other ways, like sparring, competition and testing. Yet each one of these things feels different. None of these things feel like a real fight. I think the real skill learned in breaking, is to take a new situation that has both a little fear and a little pressure, and to center yourself and perform well under those conditions. Breaking then is all about simulating a different kind of situation, introducing a different kind of stress and pressure, so that you can learn how to adjust to it. I don't think that there is a way to accurately similate how it feels to be attacked and defend your life. I can say, from experience, that there is a lot of stress, pressure and fear involved, further more, it is different each time. The best way to prepare for that is to take new situations and adjust to them, learn to choose your focus, learn to find your center, learn to relax and learn to perform under pressure. I don't think that breaking is the best way to train for this, but it is another way to train for this. I think the best way to train for this is to train as many different ways as possible for this.

[ninja sensei]

ok modern breaking is not the same as hitting a person in a selfdefense situation thats right.

but what i wanted to say is that if you defend your self
you must hitt through the person.

you must use the same if your hitting a stone

and you must use the same power if your hitting a sandbag otherwise it gives no good training.

you don't have to have the same kind off power
if you hit a breaking board.

it's a bad habitt to not hitt through the sandbag

thats what i think and thats the end of the discussion for me.






Originally posted by wab25
While I agree that breaking boards and bricks gives you very little in terms of "real world" fighting ability, I feel it does have some useful lessons to teach. First, is mind over matter. Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right. The next thing it teaches, is relaxation. Most people naturally tense up to hit something hard. In order to generate the most force, you need to relax. Finally, it teaches you how to deal with pressure. If you use bad form, you will very likely get hurt. There are usually people watching you. You are in a position where you need to deal with pressure and fear of getting hurt, and at the same time relax and execute perfect form. Yes, all these things can be learned in other ways, like sparring, competition and testing. Yet each one of these things feels different. None of these things feel like a real fight. I think the real skill learned in breaking, is to take a new situation that has both a little fear and a little pressure, and to center yourself and perform well under those conditions. Breaking then is all about simulating a different kind of situation, introducing a different kind of stress and pressure, so that you can learn how to adjust to it. I don't think that there is a way to accurately similate how it feels to be attacked and defend your life. I can say, from experience, that there is a lot of stress, pressure and fear involved, further more, it is different each time. The best way to prepare for that is to take new situations and adjust to them, learn to choose your focus, learn to find your center, learn to relax and learn to perform under pressure. I don't think that breaking is the best way to train for this, but it is another way to train for this. I think the best way to train for this is to train as many different ways as possible for this.

[ninja sensei]

so no one missunderstands me.

i only hitt pepole if I have to.

if someone tryes to hitt me i block
and leave the place
if the person who tryed to hitt
me tryes to stop me i use grips.

anyway what i ment ion my las quote
is that it's a matter of life or death
when you defend your self
you should hitt trough if you have
to hitt the person.
when you defend yourself.

this id the last qoute in this forum
from me.

[Jerusalem]

Both the schools I have spent time in have used breaking for belt advancement. I also have friends in Karate that don't understand the reason TKD puts so much into breaking. I understand both sides of the issue and I can agree with those both for an against it.

I do have a question though. When you talk about breaking in this thread I tend to think you're talking about a properly supported board. Either held by people or a device. So my question is what do you think about "speed" breaks? In which the board is supported by little or nothing. Does this change anything..or nothing?

[johenora]

Tameshigeri improves FOCUS.
The target materials need to be considered in relation to what the purpose is also. Coconuts, board on a string,bricks,bottles rocks,concrete etc each have their breaking point.
Remember --when---the Karate Kid movie and the breaks were great.
Some materials I do NOT think will break--like bullet proof glass from a punch or kick. Some have claimed it can be done. As for me I will not subject myself to the torture.
I will stick to cutting circular wrapped straw(soaked in water and left three days in the shade) and cutting wrapped up New York Times Newspapers on a stand using my ShinKen Katana(Japanerse Sword).Spectacular for floor shows. Some schools use the activity to recruit students ,advertize and get in the Guiness Book of World Records.
Each has a purpose. Some schools even require breaking and cutting for promotion.
Happy punching and cutting,

[ninja sensei]

breaking stones is not a thing that you must do to achive
blackbelt in chen shinobijutzu

why because making the nukles harder trough traditional training are not a part of the style any longer.

but we have a modern typ of makeing the nukles a litle bit
harder than untrained nukles.

I'm training punching and blocking against bodyshields and trees to harden my nuckles but i don't do it the traditional way

the traditional way is to cotinue punching even if blood comes from your nuckles.

if my nuckles starts to blead litle or much blod when i train i stop
and train something else and go back to punching a few days later.

I don't train on breaking stones and i dont train with modern
breakig boards.

but i have tested to puching trough a tree boards that is abit
harder than modern plastic breaking boards
and i have discoverd that it's not possible to break a
abit harder tree board if you are not relaxed and focusing on the board 't and punch trough it.

what i want to point out is that is importent to punch
the punch bag the same way as if you want to punch
trough something that is very hard thing example like a stone.

breaking things the modern way looks good
because its very ease to do.

another thing that i want to point out is that
traing on breaking on things that is easy to break very much
is not good if you don't puch trough
the objekt because then you will
begin to use a bad habit thinking you don't have to punch
trough a hard objekt.

you can ofcourse train on sandbags and bodysheilds
and do breaking when you perform a martial art show
i have nothing against that.

why i don't want to post any qoutes in this forum any longer is because some pepole in this has said that i don't know
what i'm talking about and that i have made up thing that
are written on the website that i have created.



Originally posted by johenora
Tameshigeri improves FOCUS.
The target materials need to be considered in relation to what the purpose is also. Coconuts, board on a string,bricks,bottles rocks,concrete etc each have their breaking point.
Remember --when---the Karate Kid movie and the breaks were great.
Some materials I do NOT think will break--like bullet proof glass from a punch or kick. Some have claimed it can be done. As for me I will not subject myself to the torture.
I will stick to cutting circular wrapped straw(soaked in water and left three days in the shade) and cutting wrapped up New York Times Newspapers on a stand using my ShinKen Katana(Japanerse Sword).Spectacular for floor shows. Some schools use the activity to recruit students ,advertize and get in the Guiness Book of World Records.
Each has a purpose. Some schools even require breaking and cutting for promotion.
Happy punching and cutting,

[johenora]

Chen:
I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Please do not let others prevent you from posting your quotes. As long as you do not violate the rules of the forum you are expected to voice your opinion.
You were born free--remain free and we want to hear your good things so we shall be FREE.
Yours in Budo and Bujutsu.

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by ninja sensei
why i don't want to post any qoutes in this forum any longer is because some pepole in this has said that i don't know
what i'm talking about and that i have made up thing that
are written on the website that i have created.


Oh my, talking behind people's (pepole's) back are we?

Don't be so mad about the fact that after you posted some really bad advice as if you were an expert, the fact you made mistakes even a begginer should know was pointed out. And don't be mad over the requests for some sort of information proving your art existed outside of your country and before the popularity of disco music. You have not bothered to respond to the request for proof and now are on another thread giving your spin on the situation.

You acted like an expert (still are) and were called on your faulty knowledge, you claim to be descended from a Japanese AND Chinese ninjutsu system you can't back up and people seem amused by your antics. Get over it and stop talking about the past behind people's backs. There were valid questions about what you wrote, but instead of having the courage to answer them, you now are acting like a child.

You can now return to your normal conversations as long as you stay within the subject matter and don't talk about anything that I was involved in. Otherwise, I'll be sure to give the other side of the story.

[johenora]

Originally posted by Jerusalem
Both the schools I have spent time in have used breaking for belt advancement. I also have friends in Karate that don't understand the reason TKD puts so much into breaking. I understand both sides of the issue and I can agree with those both for an against it.

I do have a question though. When you talk about breaking in this thread I tend to think you're talking about a properly supported board. Either held by people or a device.
--------------
So my question is what do you think about "speed" breaks? In which the board is supported by little or nothing. Does this change anything..or nothing?

--------------
Dear Eric Dillard:
Your quetion regarding "speed breaks" where the board or object is supported by little or nothing is most interesting.
Have you experienced such breaking demonstrations?
By that I mean do you know any persons doing "negative force breaks/impacts " on boards with no support--ie-suspended or on innocent animals.In some cases demonstrating on humans.
There are persons who have done these types of breaks for example on pigs,horses etc in China with kicks and palm strikes etc. The Chew Yee Chung group and others have from what I have been told. But for the life of me I do not know what they are trying to accomplish or measure. I have never witnessed such cruelties to kill animals.Such inhuman behavior violates the laws of morality.
I have witnessed volunteers actually get cut from swords or Kamas or Nunchukus in watermelon cutting and cucumber cutting and in apple supported by the teeth of one's mouth.It is supposed to be the skill of agility and accuracy.
Some of these are stage tricks and some are for real and kind of suspenseful. Spectacular but sometimes accidents happen. As the old Japanese saying goes:"Even monkeys fall out of trees". When the cutter cuts/strikes the dummy---oops!
I for one am not impressed at all by such extravaganzas.
The spilling of useless blood is enough to make Buddahas cry and lament. Such actions have a chilling effect and makes me wonder why so-called Budoists would do such sad inhumane acts.They probably would not want it done to them ,I think, unless they want to die "to go to heaven" (death wish) or go to the hospital bleeding (blood spill wish). It is pure masochistic-sadeism of the likes of the Marquis De Sade.
Innocent animals and the human species have a right to life.
Thanks for raising such an important question.
Respectfully yours,

[jjaje]

Breaking can have one benefit that marching exercies, sparring and to a smaller extent hitting a bag don't provide.

You know if you're hitting with the right part of the hand/foot or not. I've seen this help people to remember what they are striking with, and correct placement, more than just bag work.

It is possible to do bag work, yet still hit a board (or face) wrong. Not that doing board breaking all the time is good, but it does help focus, penetration, technique and placement.

[Jerusalem]

Originally posted by johenora


--------------
Dear Eric Dillard:
Your quetion regarding "speed breaks" where the board or object is supported by little or nothing is most interesting.
Have you experienced such breaking demonstrations?
By that I mean do you know any persons doing "negative force breaks/impacts " on boards with no support--ie-suspended or on innocent animals.In some cases demonstrating on humans.
There are persons who have done these types of breaks for example on pigs,horses etc in China with kicks and palm strikes etc. The Chew Yee Chung group and others have from what I have been told. But for the life of me I do not know what they are trying to accomplish or measure. I have never witnessed such cruelties to kill animals.Such inhuman behavior violates the laws of morality.
I have witnessed volunteers actually get cut from swords or Kamas or Nunchukus in watermelon cutting and cucumber cutting and in apple supported by the teeth of one's mouth.It is supposed to be the skill of agility and accuracy.
Some of these are stage tricks and some are for real and kind of suspenseful. Spectacular but sometimes accidents happen. As the old Japanese saying goes:"Even monkeys fall out of trees". When the cutter cuts/strikes the dummy---oops!
I for one am not impressed at all by such extravaganzas.
The spilling of useless blood is enough to make Buddahas cry and lament. Such actions have a chilling effect and makes me wonder why so-called Budoists would do such sad inhumane acts.They probably would not want it done to them ,I think, unless they want to die "to go to heaven" (death wish) or go to the hospital bleeding (blood spill wish). It is pure masochistic-sadeism of the likes of the Marquis De Sade.
Innocent animals and the human species have a right to life.
Thanks for raising such an important question.
Respectfully yours,

I myself have done breaks where the board was supported by little or nothing. Though the other parts of your post are "out there". No, I have never witnessed a demo in which an animal has been used and I have never participated in one (nor would I). I have witnessed demo's in which things have been cut while resting on someone else's body...though I have never seen one gone awry.

[johenora]

Thanks immensely Eric.
Your purpose of breaking sounds proper to me.
I avoid the gory corny ones.
Cheers.

[ninja sensei]

i'm not chen

my name i staffan s.

i wrote chen shinobijutzu
above my name so pepole
could see what style I instrukt


this is funny why does pepole missunderstand me
I'm not akting like a master

i have changed my post sign
for your sake Don Roley

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by ninja sensei
I'm not akting like a master

Uhh, yes you are. And you were certainly talking like one a while back before being shown that you knew almost nothing about the subject matter.

But of course, now you just want to talk about how people were mean to you. Silly me, I thought this thread was about breaking- but you had to bring up past subjects.

So, since you are not willing to answer the questions on another section of the forum, do you want to stick to the subject of breaking or not?

Anyone who wants to talk about just how silly Ninja Sensei is shoudl take it over to the following forum and thread and leave this thread to comments about breaking.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=21933&pagenumber=1

Ninja Sensei, you could have saved us all some problems if you had never bothered to talk about what happened before and kept to the subject. Instead you tried to talk behind people's backs and I am forced to give the other side of the story.

[jakmak52]

Focus and concentration, hit it hard and hit it the middle (with the grain) :D

[ilbumy]

I feel breaking a necessary for strong finger strikes. It's incredible to see people break boreds with just two fingers. I'm sure that'd come handy in a real situation when life or death comes on the line. Striking someones eyes with fingers that can break boards seems scarey, or even someones throat.

For Fists and Kicks, I feel it's more for aiding concentration and form. Although it's always cool to see a little guy break a ton of bricks or something, but like many have you said, the opponent is moving and not standing still or in a real fight you'll never have a perfect situation where everything is calm and relaxed and your opponent is standing motionless so you can focus for a minute to deliver your most devestating blow.

Also Boards in the air are harder to break. Boards That have someone holding it make it easier to break because boards are brittle objects and if a brittle object has something that is holding for force down, it'll make it snap despite being tougher than a coller bone. Also like a member mentioned before the collar bone will be moving and if it's moving away from the force, much of the force is negated resulting in a weaker attack while the board is staying still resulting in all the force running through the object.

Breaking has some pluses and minuses. Overall I say it's just another aid that should be practiced everynow and then.

[jakmak52]

Following up on my previous post about Breaking;

There is a fundamental question as to the point of Tamashi Wari (breaking training, (Japanese)). It can seem like breaking a board or any sort of material has little relevance to striking real live people. How applicable is such a methodology that approximates materials like wood and stone to human bodies?
I don't think the comparison of the human body to other materials ever was, or ever is, the essential value of Tamashi Wari. Definitely breaking materials is a very poor approximation to hitting a person. But I think that thoughts along this line are a fallacy and are not along the line of the true purpose and value of Tamashi Wari.

For me, and it took me awhile to see this, breaking things have very little to do with the actual breaking of them. Rather it has everything to do with the amount of force applied.
Tamashi Wari is not about training to be able to break large piles of hard substances. Its primarily about force output, and by force output I don't mean trying to maximize the force in a strike. Increasing the strength in striking is a fine thing, but Tamashi Wari training has nothing to do with that.
Breaking is about applying a specific amount of force to a substance to break it and hopefully nothing exceeding that amount. Its all about learning how to strike with varying force. Its main concern is the controling of the power of the strike. Such that the practitioner has total control over the amount of energy leaving the body.
Beyond this, there is a conditioning aspect to the striking surfaces. Jawbones and knees may be approximated much more accurately to hard materials then other areas like the diaphram.


Now it could be asked why would anyone want to hit someone with less then the maximum amount of force possible? The best answer is conservation of strength. These martial arts were designed in feudal nations, meaning that hand to hand (weapon to weapon) combat was the primary means of warfare. When you are in a battle against hundreds and thousands of people, that could last anywere from an hour to many hours, conservation of strength is what's going to keep you alive and able to kill.
A modern day illustration would be fighting a group of people. If you have to go through 10 to 20 guys, hitting each one with maximum force, how strong are your strikes going to be by the time you get to the last one?
Besides the fact that strikes done correctly and targeted correctly need no where near full power to incapacitate most foes, strikes done at full power are very lethel and while this was not as great a concern in feudal times, its a very real concern today.

I think that the most skillful way to break something is with the least possible amount of energy. For example a hanging board, breaking it so that the broken piece of the board falls straight down would be the most skillful strike. Breaking it so that the piece flys through the air in a downward arch is the easiest way.

I believe that training to break the greatest amount of material misses out on the whole point of breaking in the first place. It is much more beneficial for students to break just 1 board over and over again, learning how much force is needed, then it is to just sit a stack in front of them and constantly drive them to break larger and larger piles. Breaking a constant amount of material, over and over again until you know exactly how much force should be applied to break it, that is the greatest training in my opinion.


Breaking has gotten labeled as a means of gauging strength and martial skill, but it should never be used as such in a training environment. The one who can break the most is not necessarily the greatest.
I would think the purpose of breaking things in public consists of wowing a crowd and gathering attention. Which isn't a bad thing (as long as spacer's are not used, LOL).

All this being said, there is a very real danger involved in Tamashi Wari. If the strikes are not done correctly bones can be broken.
As stated in the other post about breaking, tremendous confidence can be gained when kids get to break things. And when supervised, the risk of injury is drastically reduced. Statistacally I would bet that most injuries in breaking are due to oversized ego's breaking by themselves on their own and then for of public glorification.

Breaking a 1 inch pine board is equivalent to two sets of human ribs, you do the math,genius.

[DragonMind]

Breaking a 1 inch pine board is equivalent to two sets of human ribs, you do the math,genius.
Actually, a single pine board has the same tensile strength (roughly) as nose cartilage ~ 8 lbs. Two pine boards w/o spacers is about a human rib ~ 64 lbs tensile. Adding spacers seriously reduces the tensile strength. Of course, these figures are based on dry wood. Green wet wood is a whole other story.

[jakmak52]

Actually, a single pine board has the same tensile strength (roughly) as nose cartilage ~ 8 lbs. Two pine boards w/o spacers is about a human rib ~ 64 lbs tensile. Adding spacers seriously reduces the tensile strength. Of course, these figures are based on dry wood. Green wet wood is a whole other story.

That's right, thanks for the correction.

Jack

[jakmak52]

Tamashi in fact means 'trial' and Tamashiwari is therefore 'trial by wood'. This does suggest that there is some other benefit to this practice other than flashy showmanship after all 'boards don't hit back'.

It is claimed by styles like Kyokushinkai that Tamashiwari is a physical and psychological necessity for Karateka and that it possesses a spiritual (Zen) significance. Tamashiwari requires great concentration and focus and is as much, if not more a mental as well as a physical effort. If one believes oneself of being capable of breaking an object then one can release one's entire physical energies into the act. Any mental reservations, such as being concerned of hitting something hard or what if the wood doesn't break will inhibit the maximum use of power and potential of the technique.

The other argument for Tamashiwari is that the self-discipline required for such a strike is more a strike at one's self than the wood. The total commitment, concentration and absorption in the action is such that the Karateka's ego can be temporarily obliterated, he/she transcends their normal nature and momentarily enters the Zen world of nothingness. In this context Tamashiwari can provide 'enlightenment through a single blow' in what amounts to active Zen meditation.

I'll leave you to weigh up the benefit of this practice, but would like to point out that it is Extremely Dangerous for an untrained person to attempt Tamashiwari. Improperly executed and without adequate hand conditioning, it can lead to serious injury.

[cyberdrake]

Breaking is a good way to train "impact", I practiced the one-inch punch on the heavy bag for some time without satisfying results but when I started training it with a partner holding a plastic board it took me only a few tries to get it "right" (don't want to brag).

Also when the board is held by a partner instead of lying on bricks breaking is a good exercise for accuracy as well as strenght. When you're good at it ask your partner to hold the board with one hand and when you're able to do that throw the board in the air and break it while it's flying (very hard).