elbows

[Sankheng]

whats everyones opinion on the use of the elbow in Muay Thai, and in fact any full contact martial arts. Do you think its too dangerous? or do you think that its a valid technque and its an affront being excluded from use?
Opinions please :)

[KoshoBob]

If both fighters agree then I would not stop them. I do think for a sport the risk of serious injury is very high.

[John Bennett]

I know they are too dangerous for me. I'm too old and too handsome for getting smashed with elbows. :D

But if others want to do it, I say, enjoy.

[Sankheng]

exeperiencing it is a good way of finding out whether you agree or not :D

[Ishinguy]

Way too hard for me but if the Muay thai fighters are okay with it then more power to them !
Nick Barrett

[Bad Karma]

Since when have the Thai Fighter's not had it in their sport? I missed a developemnt or two!

Wait a minute...is this for "outside" countries and events?

Peace

[RA Miller]

I don't get it-
If you exclude the dangerous techniques from full contact, is it still full contact?

Yes, there are things too dangerous to do in contest.
Yes, if you take them out you water down the art.

So how about either leave them in and accept the body count or take them out and admit that you're only playing a game?

Rory (on two hours sleep)

[Bad Karma]

Call it kickboxing or call it MT?

Peace

[Kim Kophwan]

:cool: the elbow attaks are effective especially to the chin but the move should be used in close range so it should be used wisely. :eek:

[Sankheng]

Well, in international Muay Thai (excluding Finland) the elbow is considered too dangerous to use, therefore an illegal move. Sorry to the people who already know this, but some might not.

[Bad Karma]

Me! Me! Me! I was totally unaware of this. So, I guess this means headbutts are out of the question, too?

Peace

[Sankheng]

Yes my friend, unfortunately headbutts are out of the question. :D
C.Mulliss

[Skye]

A new thing that is being tried in my state (New South Wales...in Australia) is wearing boxing headgear and neoprene (the stuff wetsuit are made of) elbow pads, and fighting full thai rules.
This system is open to amateurs, whereas the only other option in australia if you want to use elbows is to go professional...and even this is limited to a few states.
I think that this way may make elbows a little less brutal, though the padding is really only to stop cuts opening up, it won't reduce the force of the blows that much.

[Sankheng]

True, in the end, it isn't the cuts that kill when it comes to elbow strikes. We haven't yet heard many opinions from people who are against the use of the elbow. More opinions please :D
C.Mulliss

[Sanjuro]

Elbows are instant cut openers in thai & cause most of the doc's stoppages from what I've seen. That neoprene pad idea isn't half bad, its a good compromise between fighter safety and keeping the full range of weapons in a thai fight.

[Jeff Burger]

No...I dont think elbows are too dangerous.

A punch could kill a kick could kill....
Its up to the competitors....to the most part.

John...chicks dig scars.


JMB

[John Bennett]

Originally posted by Jeff Burger
"John...chicks dig scars."

Ha! Jeff, what kind of women do you hang around with?!


It's not the scars I fear from elbow strikes, it's the closed head injury.

My brain has suffered enough damage already. Add a few elbow shots and I would NEVER be able to find my car keys in the morning. :)

[Jeff Burger]

I used to hang with a pretty ruff crowd some years back...I can think a half dozen girls Id like to have back me up in a fight than alot guys I know.

Dawn F...used to wrestle for G.L.O.W.(Gorgious Ladies of Wrestling)

Michelle M...one of my friends was getting picked on by a bouncer cause of his long hair....they got into a fight and we guys figured we'd watch and see how he does...she grabbed the bouncer in a headlock and flung him over her hip....kept the headlock and took off her high heel and put a couple dozen crescent moon cuts on his noggin.

Lisa S...man I wish she had taken classes...but she just takes sparring like a real fight and gets too upset...but she was just crazy.

Fightgrrl...there are a few guys in class with a more powerful low kick than her...she grappled with Kizito (guy in our club former boxer from Kenya...guys in phenominal shape)...they went at it for half an hour until I stopped.

And thats just few.

I havent gone full contact elbows without protection...in my old Karate school elbows were allowed but it was politeness not to do them. And where I do Muay Thai we dont spar with them...we dont even tap with them without protection.

I feel not using them makes less of a fighter...if for only not knowing how to defend against them


My full contact days are coming to an end soon...the birthdays are accumulating.
Hopefully I wont end up like Homer Simpson...though he seems pretty happy....ooo look a doughnut...mmmm doooooough nut.

JMB

[John Bennett]

Ha! Tell me about it! This Sunday, June 30, I'll be 36 years old. A young man to some, an old codger to many.

I'm already starting to look like Homer!

http://www.wainer.com/figutemp/27.jpg

[Jeff Burger]

Hey John...
if Im down your way can I get that autographed?


JMB

[LEFTHOOK]

Elbow use is limited in the way I train. I only let advanced students use it in sparring and usualy only on me. I do train elbows of course on pads and bags and I believe that elbows are the easiest weapons to learn on the body. When I teach a hook I find that most students learn quicker by throwing an elbow hook and then learning the regular hook. For some reason the using the rest of the arm confuses them.

[Jeannette]

Use your elbows, fingers, knee, toes, .......if you have it, use it.

If you are refering to a sport, I'm not sure, in this case. I guess you will have to work it out with your training partners ahead of time.

[Jeff Burger]

BK mentioned head butts...
Head butts have been out of competition Muay Thai for along time.
I dont see why....you can kick someone in the neck (Narai Sanbien) but you can head butt them:rolleyes:

You can still find head butt training in Muay Thai...
There is Mae Mai and Luk Mai..
Mae Mai is the old style and Luk Mai is more the modern.

With the sport adding gloves and taking out headbutts and many other moves, some wanted to keep the old stuff around.


Jeff

[TenchuDude]

I can understand wanting to keep the competitors safe and all that jazz. But don't you think that taking out techniques and stuff like that, makes it less than what it once was?

[Jeff Burger]

Its a balancing game.
Dangerous techniques are also dangerous to the practitioners.
Sometimes it works to have a practice thats safe enough to go all out in rather than getting hurt in your training.

If we spar with elbows we wear an elbow pad held inside a neoprene sleeve on top of using head gear.

People have day jobs.
Not everyone is willing to walk around with black eyes or risk cuts and or broken noses missing or loose teeth or sucking milk shakes for the next few weeks.
Getting banged up to be as ready as possible for a fight that may never happen also doesnt float well with less serious students.

Jeff

[Ray White]

Hello Jeff,


There is Mae Mai and Luk Mai..

Where can I find out more about the headbutt?

Ray

[Jeff Burger]

Thats would be in the Mae Mai Muay Thai.

I dont know if anybody in the states is doing Mae Mai (besides us).

Its one of the videos we plan on doing.

A tape on knees, elbows and headbutts (attack and defense) is on the to do list.

I think every Muay Thai place is doing defenses against knees but other than jamming I dont see any defenses against elbows out there to the most part.

And I dont think I have ever seen anybody do defense for headbutts.

I think we could do some good tapes material wise...Id like to get a digital camera and some good editing software and a decent place to shoot (light and sound).

But Im seeing so many videos out there now that are non studio just gym footage I may just do that.

Having something with my name on it Id like it to be really good.
Im kind of anxious to get them out and maybe the people who will appreciate the material will let the fluff slide if the material is good.

The Mae Mai has some nasty stuff in it.
Consider how ruff Muay Thai is and then think they took this stuff out cause it was too dangerous and you get some idea how nasty some of this stuff is.

I think alot of traditional Ju Jitsu guys would recognize alot of stuff.

Also variations in punching without the glove.
Mae Mai is dying out though cause there is no money in it.
Even the guys doing it in Thailand do it as a respect to tradition of Muay Thai and say it will end up like dead Karate cause its not really being used.

Jeff

[ICF MickV]

As long as both competitors agree to elbows (in Muay Thai) than it they should. Its not to often you see elbow strikes nowadays anyway...inside defence is too good.

I do believe that only after 5 amatuer fights should you be allowed to use elbows (at all) and knees to the head.

[Luebbers]

From my end, I've put a lot of thought into allowing or not allowing elbows or headbutts in MMA fights. Neither Pride nor UFC allow headbutts, and only UFC allows elbows. I think that Pride has it right. Both headbutts and elbows open up fight-ending cuts, but they don't do that much damage. In fact, a lot of people think of the allowing elbows in the UFC as kind of a "cheap" tactic. Score a takedown, stay in close, drop elbows on the guy's face until a bad enough cut opens up that the fight has to be stopped.

I haven't seen very many fights (actually, I can't recall seeing any offhand) that were ended by an elbow strike because of it's knockout power. Just because it cuts. No one wants to see a fight end due to a cut; so for me, you're trading a technique that isn't all that powerful so that you have a more entertaining fight. Maybe that's "watered down," but that's fine by me. Ditto for true "bareknuckle."

[Spartan]

Elbow is used to KO, with great effect, in MuayThai. It is a powerful KO tool worthy of fear and respect.

[Luebbers]

Elbow is used to KO, with great effect, in MuayThai. It is a powerful KO tool worthy of fear and respect.

See, this perplexes me. I'll take your word that the elbow is a common KO tool in Muay Thai, because I really don't have that much exposure to MT. But I have watched a lot of of MMA fights and I really can't recall anyone being knocked out by an elbow, especially standing. I think I saw a King of the Cage where a guy knocked another guy out from the mount and he MIGHT have used an elbow.

But, MT techniques are very prevalent in MMA and using MT techniques in the clinch is a key aspect to just about everyone's game, so how come nobody is being knocked out by theese in the UFC?

It's not that I doubt the veracity of this statement, I just don't understand how this can be true in MT but not in MMA.

[Spartan]

As far as I know, almost all MT competitions in North America do not use elbow, whereas in Thailand, elbow is a preferred weapon over the fist. The Thais are phenomenal in their use of the elbows and knees. Their training dictates that. Their competition rules give more points to elbow and knee hits. Foreigners who are more interested in beating the Thais, than in beating MuayThai, tend to outlaw the use of elbows and knees.

Needless to say, elbow strikes can have pretty nasty effect. I am not sure I would want to see it used. Afterall, it is a sport we are talking about, and not a colosseum gladiator fight.

[Jeff Burger]

Since when does UFC style striking look like any skilled striking art anyway?

In S-1 (Thailand's answer to K-1) elbows are not allowed until the final match up.

Most of the knockouts I saw in Thailand were from elbows. Not because the person was KO'd but because of severe cuts.

Jeff

[Luebbers]

Most of the knockouts I saw in Thailand were from elbows. Not because the person was KO'd but because of severe cuts.

Jeff

That's exactly why I think they should not be allowed in MMA. I've seen tons of people have to stop from cuts from elbows, but nobody who just got dropped. If some Muay Thai guy comes in and starts legitimately KO'ing people with them, and fighters start learning how to use them effectively in that fashion, maybe I'll change my tune, but for now, I stand by the elbow ban.

[DARKSON]

Bobby Hoffman knocked some guy out with a elbow from the clinch in a UFC. His fight name was the white rhino. David Louiseau uses the elbow effectively in UFC. I dont think he has KO'd anybody with it yet. Not many MMA guys are good with elbows standing.

In Atlanta, Georgia elbows are legal in Muay Thai pro and amateur. Amateurs wear fairtex elbow pads not sure about the pros. Hopefully I will have my first fight with elbows this month.

Im sure there are legal elbows elsewere in the U.S. I rebember reading about Melchor Menor fighting Muay Thai with elbows in the U.S.

[Dustin Ferguson]

I agree with jeff in the fact that the danger involved with elbows can't be considered any more dangerous then kiks or punches. Heck you could be walkin down the street and get hit by a car that's your luck, so when you talk about muay thai elbows are a key component to it, just like walking is a component to life. I say that if elbows are a possible risk in any self defence situation then train for it because muay thai was developed to defend against a defence in which has the upper hand on you. You can't train muay thai and go into a street fight against another muay thai fighter (who trains in elbows) and expect to win. So competing with all your limbs including elbows is very important to being a muay thai fighter. The plus side is that if you ever have a situation which requires you to defend yourself it gives you one more thing to fall back on.

[Dustin Ferguson]

Luebbers- your fists are just as capable making severe gashes in the face as elbows are.....whats the solution.... well gloves were put into commission to stop people from busting there hands up and oppenents being slaughtered. So can't they put some form of elbow protection on and fight that way instead of taking out elbows completely. This would truly give a muay thai expierience.

PS: When I say elbow protection I do not mean elbow pads because they are not realistic enough, I mean more like elbow sleeves if there is such a thing. something thick enough not to cause gashes easily, but thin enough to make the opponent feel the power of the elbow

[DungeonWorks]

See, this perplexes me. I'll take your word that the elbow is a common KO tool in Muay Thai, because I really don't have that much exposure to MT. But I have watched a lot of of MMA fights and I really can't recall anyone being knocked out by an elbow, especially standing. I think I saw a King of the Cage where a guy knocked another guy out from the mount and he MIGHT have used an elbow.

But, MT techniques are very prevalent in MMA and using MT techniques in the clinch is a key aspect to just about everyone's game, so how come nobody is being knocked out by theese in the UFC?

It's not that I doubt the veracity of this statement, I just don't understand how this can be true in MT but not in MMA.


Michael, did you see UFC 51 last weekend??? NASTY NASTY NASTY cut/knockout of Gideon Ray by David Loiseau...a noted elbow technician. Gos, it was one of the GORIEST cuts I have ever seen in ANY combat sport! This is from mmanews.com's results page

( http://www.mmanews.com/news/ufc/headlines/109681252.shtml )




David Loiseau def. Gideon Ray via TKO (cut stoppage) after Round 1.

Breakdown: Was said to be a great fight, highlights definitely backed that up. Loiseau looked very aggressive and was blasting Ray standing and with ground and pound on top on the ground. A big knee standing and I guess an elbow or punch that followed on the ground opened up a disgusting cut on the side of Ray's head, which resulted in him not being able to answer the bell after round one, due to doctor stoppage. It was in a similar spot that Rivera had a bad cut in the Loiseau fight, in "The Crow's" second UFC bout. Loiseau also has the famous win over Frkylund from a nasty blood-gushing cut as well, so winning by doctor or referee stoppage from a cut is nothing new to the Canadian striking phenom David Loiseau. Loiseau is your winner via doctor stoppage after one round of action.

I never sparred with it....my kickboxing experience was just American rules...kicks above the waist, no backfists (did use backfists sparring on occaision though).

[RickMatz]

My brother was at a wedding reception, standing in the crowd of single men, waiting for the bride's garter to be thrown. There was a lot of pushing and jostling. Someone pushed him from the back, and to create some space he blindly threw an elbow behind him.

The garter was thrown, someone caught it, and the crowd dispersed. The guy who was standing behind my brother fell to the floor, unconcious. My brother inadvertantly knocked him out.

[Luebbers]

Michael, did you see UFC 51 last weekend??? NASTY NASTY NASTY cut/knockout of Gideon Ray by David Loiseau...a noted elbow technician. Gos, it was one of the GORIEST cuts I have ever seen in ANY combat sport! This is from mmanews.com's results page




Again, that's what I'm talking about. I hate seeing fights stopped due to cuts, and I just think that the elbow has an infinitely greater change of cutting than knocking out, enough so that making it illegal makes for a better fight. True, fists and knees can definitely cut, but I've seen more people knocked out by them than cut, so to me, that's a worthwhile technique to include in the fight. I definitely lean more towards the laissez-faire approach to MMA (the fewer rules, the better), but I also want an exciting fight. It is a sport, it's primary goal is to entertain the audience and I think this is a key part of that.

I also feel that it forces GnP'ers to work harder. They can't just lay and pray, tied up with the guy on bottom and throw some short elbows trying to open up a cut. They either have to improve position or start throwing Fedor bombs to get things going.

[wab25]

See, this perplexes me. I'll take your word that the elbow is a common KO tool in Muay Thai, because I really don't have that much exposure to MT. But I have watched a lot of of MMA fights and I really can't recall anyone being knocked out by an elbow, especially standing. I think I saw a King of the Cage where a guy knocked another guy out from the mount and he MIGHT have used an elbow.

In UFC 2 there was a vicious elbow KO, with no blood at all. The Judo guy from Sweden, I think, threw his opponent, pinned him kasa gatami, and elbowed his head 5 or 6 times. Then looked at the ref and said what now, he ain't moving. In the replay, you can see the guy was out cold after the first one.

I have also seen Pride fights, where an elbow is dropped on someones back as they shoot in for a take down. ( usually by someone new to pride ) The ref stops the fight, and the other fighter is usually in a lot of pain and takes a while before he can continue.

I think the Gracies had a lot to do with taking elbows and headbutts out. These things are hard to defend against from the guard position, and can open cuts fast. They can also KO fast too, if the guy knows what he is doing.


Since when does UFC style striking look like any skilled striking art anyway?

I agree with Jeff. Lots of people are in UFC and Pride, only because they are big and can take a shot. People winning by big lucky haymaker, sells tickets. I love to see these big guys get beat by people with skill.

In the end, I think elbows should be allowed. People would learn to defend them. A few positions would change in their dominance a bit. I think the real reason they were taken out was because some big guys in the sport couldn't defend against them, and didn't want to lose.

[Cliff Hargrave]

I think the Gracies had a lot to do with taking elbows and headbutts out.

Man you just never know when to quit do you? Do you just dream this stuff up or what? Do you scan this board every day just looking for an opportunity to take a jab at BJJ?

Find me ONE reference where any Gracie or any other BJJ fighter has asked for ANY special rules other than involving time limits and referee intervention......

[DungeonWorks]

I think the Gracies had a lot to do with taking elbows and headbutts out. These things are hard to defend against from the guard position, and can open cuts fast. They can also KO fast too, if the guy knows what he is doing.

To the contrary, I believe the BJJ offers much in the way of elbow DEFENSE from what I can tell....and I am un-educates in BJJ of any sorts. I have wathced nearly every one of Royce Gracie's UFC apearances and cannot recall him ever taking an effective headbutt/elbow from an opponent. Now, compare that to another guy named Oleg Taktarov, the Russian Sambo practitioner who ate a very healthy portion of headbuts and elbows in his diet! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:bow:

[Luebbers]

Headbutts were removed long after the Gracie era of UFC, and elbows are still allowed there. Mark Coleman has more to do with the removal of headbutts. When you have wrestlers who just headbutt and cut people open instead of doing real ground and pound, people get a little disappointed in the fights. I personally think ditto on the elbows, which is why Pride doesn't allow them.

[TroyRoget]

I saw a UFC match where a fighter got stuck in the corner and was taking a pounding, but then when I thought he was a goner he came back with an elbow and knocked his opponent out in one hit. I *think* it was Royce Gracie, but I'm not sure.

[Thai boxing badger]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: ELBOWS SHOULD DEFINATLY BE ALLOWED BECAUSE WITH OUT ELBOWS AND KNEES IT WOULDNT BE MUAY THAI. WHY THATS LIKE TAKING THE KATAS OUT OF KARATE!!!!!!! :mad: