Self Defense in NYC Subway

[sdstories]

Greetings,
Robert Carver has approved my posting of self defense story excerpts in this forum.

A New York based martial artist (Aikido & Mixed Martial Arts) sent me a story of being attacked in the Paris subway. This attack was a "sucker" attack with little prior warning but a minor verbal exchange.

My Takeaways were:

1. Keeping distance from a potential attacker is usually a good thing.
2. A subtle movement may indicate impending attack (in this case a minor adjustment in the attackers footing) I really like the way his awareness kept him out of trouble.
3. Fighting until the fight is over but no more is usually a good thing. The martial artist didn’t drag the guy out of the train to continue fighting.


Full story at http://www.selfdefensestories.com/stories/4.16.06.html

Neil

[David Anderson]

Awareness of an impending attack is probably more important than any particular technique.

[comanighttrain]

awww man, right in the ****. That must have been some kick to (send him up and then) put him down straight away.

Good find

[TonyU]

Lets keep the language a little more appropriate.

[comanighttrain]

sorry i didnt think that was inappropriate, how should i refer to the genetils?

[TonyU]

You just did.

[David Craik]

My takeaway is, let the females tell the dork that they are tired and not really interested in going out rather than riding in on your white horse until he becomes abusive - then pull your Sir Galahad routine. Female flight attendants, especially four of them together, should be wonderful at the fine art of rejection of amorous drunks. If he keeps insisting, all of you just go on your merry way and ignore him, and the first gendarme you run across (I recall them being pretty easy to find in French subway stations), one of the ladies tells him the guy is bothering them. French cops would jump at the chance to address a drunken American. "You don't want to know who I am" sounds like a macho challenge sure to incite a drunk.

Of course, all this is armchair quarterbacking. Kicking him in the family jewels works great too. Just as well there weren't any cops around though, as all parties would likely have been detained for questioning, putting a serious damper on the sightseeing.

[comanighttrain]

Seriously, the way i mentioned them before, thats how we refer to said area in a clean way where i come from. If my posts are offensive i apologise, this forum is a bit more formal than the other forums i post on so i sometimes cross the line without noticing.

back on topic though. That was a very solid kick, is that the kind of kick i often see karate guys breaking boards with?

[David Craik]

You just did.

Or "genitals", which would be the correct spelling. :D

[comanighttrain]

what about balls?

[Gordon Nore]

...back on topic though. That was a very solid kick, is that the kind of kick i often see karate guys breaking boards with?

It depends on terminology the practitioner is used to. To me a front thrust kick is a forward directional kick with the balls of the foot. (To get the idea, stand on the floor with your feet parallel and lift your heels as high as they can go -- the part that is touching the floor is the part that does the kick, but it penetrates like a punch.) For the groin, I would use a front snap kick, same load, but you're kicking with the top of your foot, toes pointed, and you kick upward into the genitals. Really flexible kickers combine the two by curling toes back and kicking up.

So, what I call a snap kick would not be good for boards. A thrust kick with the balls of the feet goes right through 'em.

[Gordon Nore]

My takeaway is, let the females tell the dork that they are tired and not really interested in going out rather than riding in on your white horse until he becomes abusive - then pull your Sir Galahad routine. Female flight attendants, especially four of them together, should be wonderful at the fine art of rejection of amorous drunks. If he keeps insisting, all of you just go on your merry way and ignore him, and the first gendarme you run across (I recall them being pretty easy to find in French subway stations), one of the ladies tells him the guy is bothering them. French cops would jump at the chance to address a drunken American. "You don't want to know who I am" sounds like a macho challenge sure to incite a drunk.
David,
I like your analysis better than mine. That's Budo.
Regards,
George Nare

[comanighttrain]

would budo not be spearing the man to death or something? I still dont get budo.

Its defined as "the spiritual foundation for martial arts; the ethical code on which martial arts are based" by dictionary.com, but what is the code? a code must have a clear cut set of rules.

[Gordon Nore]

would budo not be spearing the man to death or something? I still dont get budo.

Its defined as "the spiritual foundation for martial arts; the ethical code on which martial arts are based" by dictionary.com, but what is the code? a code must have a clear cut set of rules.

Again, my own interpretation of Budo. I saw David's analysis as superior because he stepped back and formulated a strategy that delayed and possibly eliminated the need for physical confrontation. As I posted before, I interpret Budo as "the way of stopping or putting down aggression." That may be a limited view. David's scenario is closer to what I aspire to as an MA.

[David Craik]

Haha...you're never going to let me live that "Nare" thing down are you? :D


Like I said, it's Monday morning quarterbacking on my part and things always look different in retrospect. I may have done the same thing in reality if the guy was making me angry, but sometimes there are better ways of dealing with such a situation especially in a country where you are, for all intents and purposes, a guest. I once kicked (a front jump kick, of all things!) an obnoxious American drunk in Corfu, Greece under his chin.....guess the TKD came out. He dropped like a sack of potatoes, and it broke some of his teeth. But when I thought of the ways it could have been so easily avoided I felt like total crap, even though he was about to attack. The attack would have never been attempted if I had handled it differently. To be honest I don't remember the details today, all I remember is that he was in the wrong initially, I didn't back down, and that I kicked him when it could have all been avoided by putting the ego away, and even done a little self-effacing. Probably could have bought him a beer and talked awhile instead.

Who knows, perhaps I've gotten soft these days and my ego has taken a backseat to being sick of violence unless there is no other way.


would budo not be spearing the man to death or something? I still dont get budo.

Its defined as "the spiritual foundation for martial arts; the ethical code on which martial arts are based" by dictionary.com, but what is the code? a code must have a clear cut set of rules.

I'm not an example of what I understand as 'Budo', but I would like to be. I have made many stupid and unneccesary decisions which led to violence, particularly in my youth. I know what you are saying..'Do' being 'way', and 'Bu' - from the kanji 'quelling a revolt by means of the spear'. But to me, the 'spear' is only to be used when there is no other option. 'Hodoku' is always in mind for me these days. There is enough fighting and hurting the world. If I never have an avoidable physical confrontation with a fellow human being I will be happy on my deathbed.

Yep, I've gotten soft. Time to retire :D

[AllanJGAnderson]

Budo, is the way of the warrior. If you want a good foundation of how a modern martial artist should conduct himself, read a book by Forest E. Morgan called Living the Martial Way. In my opinion ist's the most relevant book on the matter in the modern age. Learn something from it and you'll probably get along better with some of the moderators here aswell.

[David Craik]

That's a good book. Wow, this thread may be more suited to the 'Philosophy Forum' now...my fault I guess :o

A case could be made too, for the man in question to have used a minimum amount of force. The drunk now has a hurt groin and may think better of it next time.

[Gordon Nore]

...If you want a good foundation of how a modern martial artist should conduct himself, read a book by Forest E. Morgan called Living the Martial Way. In my opinion ist's the most relevant book on the matter in the modern age...

Excellent recommendation, Allan. My copy is due for a re-read.
Gord :)

[Gordon Nore]

Haha...you're never going to let me live that "Nare" thing down are you? :D

This is the only time I've teased you publicly about it. Now I'm done. :laugh:


...I'm not an example of what I understand as 'Budo', but I would like to be. I have made many stupid and unneccesary decisions which led to violence, particularly in my youth...

Same here. Back when I was much younger, and knew more than I do now, I worked in a fairly rough bar, and was determined to prove myself against some of the miscreant clients. I allowed situations to escalate needlessly. I'm very fortunate that I never got a pint glass screwed into my face. Being less experienced in life, I let my pride get in my way.

Re-reading this thread, I think the man on the subway may have put his male pride (your reference to Sir Galahad) before his judgement. There was no iminent physical danger, just an annoying drunk. I think Budo is something one aspires to in the day to day. We make mistakes, learn from them, and move on.

[AllanJGAnderson]

I just re-read it a few weeks ago, that's probably why it keeps apearing in my posts.

[David Craik]

Though I may be making this situation somewhat academic, an excerpt from Dave Lowry's 'Traditions'* comes to mind, as it often does in these quoted "street" situations.


A young Japanese karate exponent and his wife were visting New York City a few years ago. They'd met some friends at a Manhattan restaurant for dinner and after eating they left the restaurant in search of a taxi to take them back to their hotel. Standing on a street corner in many parts of Manhattan can be an unnerving experience at any time, of course. But when it is midnight and your hometown is on the other side of the earth, it can be particularly trying. The couple had nearly reached the conclusion that every taxi driver was exacting revenge for Japan's sin of having produced a fuel efficient car. At least half a dozen of them breezed past without so much as a glance in their direction. Abruptly, the couple's problem was compounded.


'Hey, China Doll! You lookin' nice' An admirer sauntered up to lean against a street lamp. He mouthed remarks insulting to the man and insinuating to his wife, both of whom pretended not to understand. The wife moved so that her husband was between herself and the stranger. The situation grew more tense. The jerk stepped away from the light post. 'Come on, pretty lady. I'll show you a real good time.' He reached his arm out in front of the husband. 'This Jap ain't gonna be no fun', he said.

The jerk didn't know it, but the 'Jap' in question had achieved something of a reputation back in Japan for snapping off the makiwara punching posts in his dojo when he struck them. If he'd hit the troublesome jerk, there was a real possibility he'd have inflicted terrible, perhaps fatal damage. Instead, he laughed. Uproariously. He gave the man a playful shove, the kind a friend might give another, rocking the jerk back on his heels.

'You wouldn't want to spend any time with her', he said, still laughing and, with his arm around his wife, turning to walk toward a taxi he saw down the block. 'She's a Jap too!'



This to me, while probably difficult for many to understand, is the spirit of Budo, and quick and reasoned thinking on the part of the gentleman in question. If only we all could put away our testosterone and think as clearly as this. This is not weakness, I have no doubt that if the jerk had moved on either of them physically, the Japanese man would have mistaken his face for a makiwara. But he knew the difference between a genuine threat (which he diffused before it materialized) and BS. I imagine the jerk probably thought something along the lines of "crazy Japs" as they got in the taxi instead of being moved to violence by a display of macho. At least, this is the ideal in my mind.

I hope that if ever in a situation like this, I could think clearly enough to defuse it in a similar way.



* 'Traditions', Ch. 4: 'A Puppy Dog's Bark', Dave Lowry ISBN 0-8048-3432-6

Get it here. (http://koryu.com/store/tr.html)

[AllanJGAnderson]

Darn good citation. Hit the nail on the head with that one.

[Gordon Nore]

Great story. Also it's the kind of story a person can tell years later without any remorse or second-guessing.

[comanighttrain]

man im so drunk....iv had a few beers...you guys are all wrong....

[AllanJGAnderson]

:::Troll Countdown Begining:::

[David Craik]

Perhaps a day will be sufficient to allow you to sober up. See you then.

[Rasputin]

In regards to Budo,

Is it respect for the law that guides a follower of Budo to pursue the least violent recourse in a conflict, or is it concern for the well-being of one's fellow man?

Laws come and go. The other day, my friend was telling me that Louisiana has recently passed legislation which severely reduces a criminal's (or their estate's) ability to file countersuit against a person if that criminal is injured during the course of committing a crime against them.

Taken broadly, this could be seen as carte blanche here in the state to defend one's self with impunity, not fearing legal reprisal for broken bones and/or the death of one's attacker.

Does Budo protect our attacker even if the law does not? Should it? Or is it an Eastern respect for one's self and the harmony with the greater whole of Man which encourages this?

[Cameron]

man im so drunk....iv had a few beers...you guys are all wrong....


What is this guy talking about? Anyone care to elaborate?

[TonyU]

What is this guy talking about? Anyone care to elaborate?
It doesn't matter, he's no longer with us.

[Jeff C.]

Neil, I agree totally with David. I think your number one takeaway should have something to do with the "hero" chosing to escalate instead of de-escalate the situation. He made it worse with his mouth. He could have made it better, and non-violent, with his mouth.

He made the wrong choice.

Jeff Cook

[sdstories]

Rob, a New York based martial artist and friend of mine, sent me this short story.
I was coming home late from a bar one Friday night and was getting on the IRT #6 train at 23rd Street. The entry area was empty except for the token booth clerk and two guys loitering by the wall. I really didn’t pay any attention to them and started toward the turnstile. Before I could get through the turnstile I sensed something behind me. I turned around and the two guys who had been loitering by the wall were now right behind me. The guy closest to me took a swing at me, which I avoided by ducking. It came so quickly that I just reacted without thinking, just trying to avoid it. I couldn’t move much because I was right against the turnstile. As I started straightening up, the other guy wailed a roundhouse punch. I blocked it and caught him I the mouth with a reverse punch and he stumbled back. Since his accomplice was so close to me I was able to catch him with a backward elbow smash to his face right off my reverse punch. Because my adrenaline was so high I don’t remember much after this. I think I hit the guy on my left another time and then I ran out of the station and a few blocks and then hailed a cab home. Next time I’ll probably take a cab after being out drinking.
Kind of shows how knee jerk reactions can save the day. Connecting with a couple of solid punches even in the confined space of the subway worked for Rob.

[khujo78]

ummm...ok.

[TonyU]

I merged the threads. As much as I think it's all crap, lets at least keep in one continious thread.