Boxing Combos/One steps (karate equivalent)

[sooner_sadiq]

I was just inquiring to see if there is any stylistic difference here between the karate folks and tkd. As a former tkd practitioner I know how the majority of us train but i was wondering if the karate fellows did the same. When you guys train your one-steps or whatever the karate equivalent is do you guys train against a single held out punch (traditional punching) or against the more modern type punches (jab/cross/hook)? On a side note do most karate practitioners train using the modern boxing combonations?

[CEB]

yes...............

[Dale Lackey]

We have some muay thai pads to train with, straight jab, hook, round kick etc. I suppose that depends also on the school.

[Margaret Lo]

I was just inquiring to see if there is any stylistic difference here between the karate folks and tkd. As a former tkd practitioner I know how the majority of us train but i was wondering if the karate fellows did the same. When you guys train your one-steps or whatever the karate equivalent is do you guys train against a single held out punch (traditional punching) or against the more modern type punches (jab/cross/hook)? On a side note do most karate practitioners train using the modern boxing combonations?

Most traditional karate people train in one step w/ one side stepping forward while the other side executes defense. Attacks are usually punch to head, body, front kick, roundhouse, side thrust.

In JKA shotokan, defense vs. one step usually involves announcing attack, defense stepping back w/ block and counter.

In our 1 step semi free, attacker takes a higher sparring stance, announces type of attack, steps forward w/ technique and defense moves back and blocks/counters. Then, there is progression to tournament style attacks where punches are not combined with stepping forward.

While the progression seems logical - beginners step forward in basic stance, then move to more natural stance still stepping forward, then boxer type stance and no stepping forward - to my mind there is no reason to step forward at all. After all boxers never train with stepping forward, why do the traditional karate/TKD people do this?

I have a theory that this stepforward/don't stepforward progression is actually a creole form, half karate half kickboxing. I think to really understand what we are doing we really need to tweek one step sparring and understand its purpose.

I think, we have to remember that true traditional karate contains weapons training and its training methods aim to put in coordination which assumes weapons will be part of your curriculum. If you have a bo or Japanese sword you need to step forward with strikes so your body balances the weapon. But w/ modern sport karate, weapons have fallen out of use, yet the training methodology remains (stepping forward behind a punch) even though what attacker does that?

So in that light, one step is really a separate animal from free sparring boxing type attacks which are pure in their assumption of empty hand attacks.


M

[Gene Williams]

Most traditional karate people train in one step w/ one side stepping forward while the other side executes defense. Attacks are usually punch to head, body, front kick, roundhouse, side thrust.

In JKA shotokan, defense vs. one step usually involves stepping back w/ block and counter.

In our 1 step semi free, attacker takes a sparring stance, announces type of attack and defense moves back and blocks/counters. Then, there is progression to tournament style attacks where punches are not combined with stepping forward.

While the progression seems logical - beginners step forward in basic stance, then move to more natural stance still stepping forward, then boxer type stance and no stepping forward - to my mind there is no reason to step forward at all. After all boxers never train with stepping forward, why do the traditional karate/TKD people do this?

I have a theory that this stepforward/don't stepforward progression is actually a creole form, half karate half kickboxing. I think to really understand what we are doing we really need to tweek one step sparring and understand its purpose.

M

Actually, in Shito ryu, the step forward develops into a lunging attack which can be either an oi zuki off the front foot or a gyakuzuki off the rear foot after step/sliding forward. The value of the drills you mention and of such kata (in Shotokan) as Taikyoku Shodan is in the development of a powerful lunging step, which can be the basis for many techniques later on. But, the "step" cannot be a static, rigid step like you see so often in dojo partner work. It has to be explosive. The "step" becomes very important in "closing the gap" later on. I used to have students stand a bo length away from each other and hit the uke with a proper, focused oi zuki from that distance with one step, both from zenkutsu dachi and a natural stance or a hanmi dachi. You need to be able to do things like that, and those drills and kata that employ the step forward are training for that (if done properly for a long time.) :bow:

[Tony Dismukes]

After all boxers never train with stepping forward

Margaret, do you mean that boxers don't train with a lunging step forward? Boxers do typically step when they punch. It's just not a lunging step where the rear foot becomes the front foot.

[Margaret Lo]

Margaret, do you mean that boxers don't train with a lunging step forward? Boxers do typically step when they punch. It's just not a lunging step where the rear foot becomes the front foot.

Tony, I meant that boxers don't use the lunge step forward, I boxed a little (Mikhail Grygorian - Boston MA salute to you coach and olympian) I know boxers do use their lower bodies a lot and put weight behind the punch. Modern jiyu kumite employs jab/cross combination from left forward position much like boxers.


the "step" cannot be a static, rigid step like you see so often in dojo partner work. It has to be explosive. The "step" becomes very important in "closing the gap" later on.

Gene, I certainly agree with you there (note to self - haven't emphasized this part enough in class) but the purpose of closing the gap is I think a truly "martial" application. In tournament sparring, just like in boxing, there's not as much need to close the gap because 1) your opponent will generally approach you, and 2) if they back off, there's no place to run and you have many chances, so the fighting distance b/n contestants is quite small these days. To close the gap explosively implies a real or "street" concept of technique, which isn't the first thing you think of when thinking of 1 step sparring.

M

[Gene Williams]

Tony, I meant that boxers don't use the lunge step forward, I boxed a little (Mikhail Grygorian - Boston MA salute to you coach and olympian) I know boxers do use their lower bodies a lot and put weight behind the punch. Modern jiyu kumite employs jab/cross combination from left forward position much like boxers.



Gene, I certainly agree with you there (note to self - haven't emphasized this part enough in class) but the purpose of closing the gap is I think a truly "martial" application. In tournament sparring, just like in boxing, there's not as much need to close the gap because 1) your opponent will generally approach you, and 2) if they back off, there's no place to run and you have many chances, so the fighting distance b/n contestants is quite small these days. To close the gap explosively implies a real or "street" concept of technique, which isn't the first thing you think of when thinking of 1 step sparring.

M

Well, it is a "martial art." :D We don't emphasize point sparring very much. One step and 3 step yes. Ma ai is pretty important, and I don't care for those close distance starting points. :bow:

[CEB]

Closer the better

[Gene Williams]

Closer the better

Just like a damned Goju guy! :D No, I want him to have to come get me...of course I may decide when he is half way there to come get him instead, Hell, who knows, I may just go get him at the same time he comes to get me. :laugh:

[wab25]

Looking at this from a jujitsu point of view, that lunging step could be a very useful tool. As a jujitsuka, we have to move from too far away to be kicked, or hit, through the kicking range, then through the punching range, then through knee / elbow range, in order to get to grappling throwing range. Closing distance is the most dangerous part for us, mainly because we have to travel through the other guys strengths. Gene suggested being able to move from bo range, to punching range, very quickly. I might want to apply that to moving from outside kicking range to throwing range, either just before or just after a missed kick.

Also, for point sparring, it can be useful. If your opponent is very good at kicking, you can get inside his effective kicking range, to nullify the kicks, with this type of lunge. (be sure to punch him, once you get there)

[Gene Williams]

Looking at this from a jujitsu point of view, that lunging step could be a very useful tool. As a jujitsuka, we have to move from too far away to be kicked, or hit, through the kicking range, then through the punching range, then through knee / elbow range, in order to get to grappling throwing range. Closing distance is the most dangerous part for us, mainly because we have to travel through the other guys strengths. Gene suggested being able to move from bo range, to punching range, very quickly. I might want to apply that to moving from outside kicking range to throwing range, either just before or just after a missed kick.

Also, for point sparring, it can be useful. If your opponent is very good at kicking, you can get inside his effective kicking range, to nullify the kicks, with this type of lunge. (be sure to punch him, once you get there)


You are one of those impatient jujutsuka :D You could let him close the gap for you. :laugh:

[wab25]

You are one of those impatient jujutsuka :D You could let him close the gap for you. :laugh: I am usually hit quite a few times, while I wait. ;) I figure its good to have more than one route in.

[Gene Williams]

I am usually hit quite a few times, while I wait. ;) I figure its good to have more than one route in.

On a more serious note, what role does atemi play in your tradition? Some jujutsu ryu hit and kick more than others.

[wab25]

Up through black belt, there is very little atemi. After black belt, lots of atemi. Part of the deal is that when you work with the kyu ranks and ask them to throw a punch, you get something a little different each time. You learn to quickly adapt your technique to the punch given. Therefore, my throw doesn't require you to step in a particular place, it just requires you to throw a throw a punch that will hit me and is more than a jab. New white belts that learned to punch in other systems really test the unaware upper belts when they say punch me, no really punch me..... Its a good test and good practice though, even if you do get humbled every now and again. (it also teaches you what a punch feels like, and that you can still many times finish the throw, even though you got punched)

[kumite]

Gene, I certainly agree with you there (note to self - haven't emphasized this part enough in class) but the purpose of closing the gap is I think a truly "martial" application. In tournament sparring, just like in boxing, there's not as much need to close the gap because 1) your opponent will generally approach you, and 2) if they back off, there's no place to run and you have many chances, so the fighting distance b/n contestants is quite small these days. To close the gap explosively implies a real or "street" concept of technique, which isn't the first thing you think of when thinking of 1 step sparring.

M

I disagree. I've always taught that every thing you do in practice should be "street" oriented. You can always adjust your techniques to fit in a set of rules for whatever form of competition you desire.

As far as the distance between people when a fight starts, most that I've been in when I was younger and those I watched often started less than three feet apart. Some were nose to nose. Just depended on how much jawing they did before they got down to the brass tacks.