View Full Version : Kobudo In Karate-Do
Thoughts on the statement?
I myself study shotokan and we practice kobudo in our dojo. Of course because we practice kobudo we are not affiliated with any orginization. In interviews I have read from the top shotokan guys (nakayama, kanazawa, etc.) this topic has come up. Many of these Jka men (or formally JKA) have picked up some kobudo lessons in searching for the overall idea of karate. From those who practice kobudo, like myself, feel karate with out kobudo leaves a gap in karate. I could not imagine going to a JKA school and not studying kobudo. After a while I have gotten the feeling that the weapons are apart of my body not a seperate object and are an extension. Am I crazy. Anways, your thoughts.
It is interesting that you make this point about kobudo. We also practice kobudo as part of our martial art. Our instructor is always reminding us that kobudo is just an "extension of our empty hand techniques".
For example a jodan uke with a sai or tonfa is basically performed the same whether you had the weapon or not. The utilization of a weapon allows us greater distance to perform blocks or strikes in order to keep us out of harms way.
Therefore, our thought process does not change just because we have a weapon. The weapon is an extension of our empty hand techniques.
I this made some sense.
David F.
Yes and No.
In some cases if you do a Jodan Uke with Tunfa the way you do it empty handed you can get an arm broke.
If you do an upper block with a Sai the way you do it empty handed you wind up on your head. There are mechanical differences need to overcome the superior leverage of the staff.
Kobudo isn't just Karate done with weapons. There are correct and incorrect practices. My Kobudo is seperate from my Karate because it is a seperate Ryuha. They work well together and I believe in practicing both. These Okinawian systems are not that much different from a Sogo Budo. There are boxing/grappling/ and armed elements with these arts.
Karate teachers just getting weapons and doing karate with weapons I think pretty much sucks. Teachers should not teach stuff they don't KNOW.
But if Kobudo knowledge pursued through proven othrodox methods of practice then it is an excellent extension of your practice, but I'm sure you guys know more about this than me.
I agree, Ed,
I've been taught by empty hand guys who learned a weapon kata and by those who specialised in weapons.
There is a difference.
One poor dojo buddy of mine, punched with his sai and when he returned it to his waist as the other hand punched, he turned his fist, just like he would with a regular, empty hand punch. The wing of the sai went thru his gi and deep into his 'love handle' just like that. It was blunt too. Yikes.
If the teaching "the weapon must just be an extension of the arm" does not take into consideration the special weaknesses and strengths of the weapon, a lot will be lost.
Yes and No.
In some cases if you do a Jodan Uke with Tunfa the way you do it empty handed you can get an arm broke.
If you do an upper block with a Sai the way you do it empty handed you wind up on your head. There are mechanical differences need to overcome the superior leverage of the staff.
Kobudo isn't just Karate done with weapons. There are correct and incorrect practices. My Kobudo is seperate from my Karate because it is a seperate Ryuha. They work well together and I believe in practicing both. These Okinawian systems are not that much different from a Sogo Budo. There are boxing/grappling/ and armed elements with these arts.
Karate teachers just getting weapons and doing karate with weapons I think pretty much sucks. Teachers should not teach stuff they don't KNOW.
But if Kobudo knowledge pursued through proven othrodox methods of practice then it is an excellent extension of your practice, but I'm sure you guys know more about this than me.
I guess I wasn't as clear as I could have been. Our study of kobudo is based on the teachings of Matayoshi Sensei passed on through Tadashi Yamashita Sensei. So we have a tradition behind our kobudo.
I understand there are definite mechanical differences between a high block with a sai, tonfa, or without a weapon. I was trying to make the point that it is not unusual to think of the weapon as an extension of your empty hand techniques.
David F
I agree, Ed,
I've been taught by empty hand guys who learned a weapon kata and by those who specialised in weapons.
There is a difference.
One poor dojo buddy of mine, punched with his sai and when he returned it to his waist as the other hand punched, he turned his fist, just like he would with a regular, empty hand punch. The wing of the sai went thru his gi and deep into his 'love handle' just like that. It was blunt too. Yikes.
If the teaching "the weapon must just be an extension of the arm" does not take into consideration the special weaknesses and strengths of the weapon, a lot will be lost.
I definitely agree Ted. The point about the retraction of the hand; It's one of our first warnings when starting to teach a beginner about the sai. Haven't had an "accidental piercing" in our school yet. :D
David F
sooner_sadiq
05-25-2006, 13:01
i agree that the weapon is an extension of the empty hand work. of course there will have to be slight modification to movement depending on the weapon used at the time (stick, knife,sai, etc). The angles of attack are the same and can be transposed to any weapon. Plus weapon training should be inherent with martial arts training. Every civilized fighting force learns to use weapons first, then empty hand because no one goes into battle empty handed. Even todays modern special forces would use their weapon first, then if it is lost use their empty hand skills to gain another weapon, not stick empty handed. So yes i feel it should be a part of you.
I'm too new to MA to make an informed comment on the topic. I only know that the Goju that I am studying comes along with Matayoshi kobudo.
They can supplement each other and one can give you an insight into the other.
Interesting points made on the mechanics of kobudo. I agree with Ed's point that the the techniques have slight differences. Though like dave said, I feel more of an extension of my body. I was being unclear, I wasnt necessarily talking about the mechanics but the symbolism or philosophy behind it. The fact that the JKA does not practice weapons is symbolic to them saying, Kobudo and karate are two different arts. Yes, but Itsou, Azato, Matsumura, etc. were all karate and kobudo masters. I believe Itosu said that he could beat any samurai in an Iai match. My point is that the weapons are apart of us as much as our body is as a weapon. They are not two arts but one. Anyone agree or, think I am crazy?
No offense Alex, your philosophical approach is commendable, but I think you're getting way too ahead of yourself.
Just train and enjoy yourself. Answers will come.
.... I agree with Ed's point that the techniques have slight differences. ....
I didn't say that.
I said there are differences. Some of which are NOT slight but major. Some of these are not necessarily intuitive either. The way you strike with a sai is a completely different feel and a different form of power from the way a lot of you guys probably punch. Age uke….totally different etc…..
Genuine Kobudo supplements Karate very well.
Crap however is crap.
Karate sensei should only teach something if they know it. If you are fortunate enough to have access to a legitimate line of Kobudo then you are lucky and should count your blessings.
Gene Williams
05-25-2006, 14:41
Yes, Brothers, but others must find their own path. Let us not hinder their efforts at merging with their instruments of violence, even if it is to do violence upon themselves by their misunderstanding. Perhaps one day they will come to know. Who are we, simply because we have hundreds of years of teaching and training among us all, to suggest that these little ones should follow the proven way. Nay, I say, allow them to seek enlightenment as they would. We are but dust. Mu. :bow:
Jesus I laughed so hard I almost peed myself.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
The Gene-amania is back. Although I liked the cartman, respect my authority icon.
Osu sensei
Dale Lackey
05-25-2006, 18:19
Interesting points made on the mechanics of kobudo. I agree with Ed's point that the the techniques have slight differences. Though like dave said, I feel more of an extension of my body. I was being unclear, I wasnt necessarily talking about the mechanics but the symbolism or philosophy behind it. The fact that the JKA does not practice weapons is symbolic to them saying, Kobudo and karate are two different arts. Yes, but Itsou, Azato, Matsumura, etc. were all karate and kobudo masters. I believe Itosu said that he could beat any samurai in an Iai match. My point is that the weapons are apart of us as much as our body is as a weapon. They are not two arts but one. Anyone agree or, think I am crazy?
JKA do not practice weapons or just wait till shodan to even talk about the possibility?
JKA do not practice weapons or just wait till shodan to even talk about the possibility?
Dale,
No, the JKA practice no weapons. Who do you study under, do you guys have a website. Mine is www.shokarate.org
alex
Dale Lackey
05-25-2006, 18:52
My sensei is Gregory Wells. He was part of the Bahamas Kenkojuku association under Sensei Arnold Farquharson back in the 80's. Since then he has taken quite a few other arts and decided to teach what he wanted to teach and when he wanted to teach it.
No, no website. He says he got his Sandan when it was affliated with JKA but it was also Kenkojuku, so not sure. That is all he wears now, but we do alot of stuff , weapons, muay thai, and even grappling in class. All of our kata is shotokan though with a few differences.
FWIW - Funakoshi Gichen taught weapons. I guess his favorite staff kata was Tenryu no Kun.
I guess it got lost????
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10580
Gene Williams
05-26-2006, 21:58
I used to to teach Tenryu no kun, but then just went straight to teaching Sushi no kun. I don't think I even remember Tenryu no kun anymore. Mr. Davis teaches Tenryu no kun. He learned it from me before I quit doing it.
Ron Davis
05-27-2006, 09:15
Yes I teach Tenryu no kun I think it is a good basic kata to introduce students to the bo. Its not flashy and the moves are simple and to the point.
Dale Lackey
05-28-2006, 08:58
Can you describe it? All of our bo kata that i have benn taught that is have the same pattern of steps as our beginning kata, easy to learn, hard to master. Really just curious. I should look up a book on bo kata, i love the bo.
Gene Williams
05-28-2006, 09:27
Can you describe it? All of our bo kata that i have benn taught that is have the same pattern of steps as our beginning kata, easy to learn, hard to master. Really just curious. I should look up a book on bo kata, i love the bo.
Well, let's see, you grab a bo, bow, then you go this way for a couple of steps and do something with the bo, then you turn and go in another direction and do something else with the bo, then you repeat a couple of times. :rolleyes:
Sort of like this but done with a longer stick.
http://www.fudebakudo.com/graphics/gallery_31count_600_x_450.gif
Gene Williams
05-28-2006, 09:58
Sort of like this but done with a longer stick.
http://www.fudebakudo.com/graphics/gallery_31count_600_x_450.gif
I like move number 4. Will you teach it to me? :bow:
Ron Davis
05-28-2006, 10:29
you can check out http://www.goju-ryu.info
you have to register but it is free. You can then download video of the kata there are several from different style on the site.
Gene Williams
05-28-2006, 10:33
you can check out http://www.goju-ryu.info
you have to register but it is free. You can then download video of the kata there are several from different style on the site.
Mr. Davis is a good guy, and he performs very good kata. But, HE did not learn it by fishing on the internet. :nono:
Ron Davis
05-28-2006, 16:54
HE did not learn it by fishing on the internet.
No I recomend this link for research only there is no way to learn proper kata over the internet. Plus with the dffernet versions that is on this site you will only get confused.....
Dale Lackey
05-28-2006, 17:04
Mr. Davis is a good guy, and he performs very good kata. But, HE did not learn it by fishing on the internet. :nono:
Was that comment for him or for me? If it was for me, then i think you have the wrong idea. I use the internet for general information on other martial arts. I have definitely learned more about the origins of karate since I joined this forum, as well as different opinions on many different topics. I am not interested in home study black belt programs or taking video and trying to perform the said bo kata. I was really just curious. I don't have large amounts of money to buy every book i can find, although i am working on that. But i am insanely curious about all martial arts and use the internet to feed that need, since it's here. I also use this forum and a few other sites, to keep me interested and motivated, which is a good thing right?
:bow:
Gene Williams
05-28-2006, 19:44
Was that comment for him or for me? If it was for me, then i think you have the wrong idea. I use the internet for general information on other martial arts. I have definitely learned more about the origins of karate since I joined this forum, as well as different opinions on many different topics. I am not interested in home study black belt programs or taking video and trying to perform the said bo kata. I was really just curious. I don't have large amounts of money to buy every book i can find, although i am working on that. But i am insanely curious about all martial arts and use the internet to feed that need, since it's here. I also use this forum and a few other sites, to keep me interested and motivated, which is a good thing right?
:bow:
I, or CEB, need to address this. I think you are a good guy who may be confusing yourself with an information overload. But, I am tired right now. Maybe later tonight or tomorrow...unless Ed wants to do it.
No you can address this. Not sure who to advise the youngster. Only way I know how to approach this is how I would advise my own but .... He isn't so I won't.
The internet OK for entertainment purposes but other than entertainment it is pretty much useless. That last thing a novice needs is to be getting 'research'.
Who could really do a good job of answering this would be St. Francias. Too bad about that Gordon guy.
Dale Lackey
05-29-2006, 11:52
I get what both of you are saying, and i understand. I don't need to muddy the waters so to speak while i am trying to learn. I always take things with a grain of salt anyways.
Despite this, I think i have found out alot from this forum in particular. Private message me if you want, I'll be around. :bow:
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