incredible martial arts clip !! [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

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capoeirascience

05-31-2006, 05:58

Have look at these incredible capoeira (http://www.capoeirascience.com) video clips. These guys are among the BEST capoeiristas in the world, check out their style, grace and the incredible moves! Concrete floors, bare-feet, fearless.

http://www.capoeirascience.com

Gordon Nore

05-31-2006, 06:21

capoeirascience

05-31-2006, 08:41

DragonMind

05-31-2006, 11:17

Interesting, almost like TKD with a back beat... :laugh:

Maybe you could enlighten us on some of the finer points? I'm not seeing any kicks I haven't seen in other styles and my gut reaction to the head spins is that's a great way to lose teeth on the street. What am I missing?

And please tone down the adjective generator. Using "incredible" twice in three sentences is a bit much. Obsession is not a good thing, by the way...

Gordon Nore

05-31-2006, 11:38

yep im totally obsessed with capoeira (http://www.capoeirascience.com), its basically my whole life. im not good enough to teach yet so i train under mestre ponciano. i make thse vids to educate people as to what is really good in capoeira (from my point of view) and how it can be done in different ways..

I take it then that capoeirascience.com is your website and these are your words from the site...

What is Capoeira Science?

This site is dedicated to the science of the art of Capoeira. Please note that as regards the reader i.e. YOU this website is all theory do not attempt to practice anything you read or see herein before reading the disclaimer at the bottom of this page. Capoeira Science as per Cientista, can be grouped under one of two general headings:-

a.) Sports Science
The scientific principles applied in garnering, directing and controlling momentum in order to force the human body through space in dynamic, acrobatic contortion against the opposing force of gravity and better intellectual reasoning.

b.) Social Science
Capoeira’s, place in history and culture, that of Brazil and the rest of the world today. A general, open-ended exploration of the deeper meaning of capoeira.
My question: Are you here to participate in a discussion or to flog your website?

Yang Wei Xin

05-31-2006, 13:05

Enjoy your stay at Budoseek Andy!

What does it mean to flog a website, is he going to beat it with a rod?

Gordon Nore

05-31-2006, 13:22

What does it mean to flog a website, is he going to beat it with a rod?
Number 2, below...

flog
tr.v. flogged, flog·ging, flogs

1. To beat severely with a whip or rod.
2. Informal. To publicize aggressively: flogging a new book.

David Craik

05-31-2006, 16:53

.....................

capoeirascience

06-01-2006, 07:23

AllanJGAnderson

06-01-2006, 07:45

steady on with the flogging of the spam!

Translation anyone?

Musubi Dojo

06-01-2006, 08:16

Translation anyone?

Keep abusing the canned, gelatenous meat byproduct?

Gordon Nore

06-01-2006, 09:47

steady on with the flogging of the spam! ok so the text is bombastics but so is the action. i needed to get your attention that's all. im not making any money out of it (except ad-sense which as we all know is craaap) and the site isnt about me. i promote capoeira as an art via talented individuals who practice it. bombast over.
No, the flogging ends now. You didn't need to get anyone's attention. We've seen Capoeira videos before. No one ever suspected you were going to make a dime off this. People spam for profit or personal glory.

ok... defense part over. kicks - that you havent seen before - look at mestre ponciano on fire, the red one. he cartwheels in then does a chaka-chaka. this is unique to capoeira as is armada dupla (or double leg), au batido (standing on one arm and kicking over your shoulder) and what about meia lua de compasso!? the bread an butter of capoeira - a reverse roundhouse wih both hands on the floor. this are just a few, capoeira is nothing if not innovative.
And we've seen it all before. Personally, I have great respect for your art. What I have trouble with are the endless sales pitches to the rest of the MA community that we've somehow been missing something.

I'm inclined to close this thread, but I won't. We'll push it over to Member Announcements, and see where it goes from there. See rules below. You may consider this a warning against future spamming.

9. Do not SPAM our forums. Please do not spam our forums. We have provided one forum, "Member Announcements" were you can post information on events, and other announcements.

Yang Wei Xin

06-01-2006, 10:13

What exactly is he announcing, that capoeira is cool?

Shouldn't this be in Martial Media?

capoeirascience

06-01-2006, 11:10

well I was discussing but i have receieved many insults instead. I am not a spammer this is a martial arts forum and capoeira is a martial art. my god. we are all missing something. theres so much going on in the world and we cant be everywhere... so i tried to show you something I love. if u show me something, I will comment on it maybe ask questions... instead i am forced to defend myself. guaranteed the spam commentators didnt have a look at all the vides or you WOULD see thnigs that you havent seen before. I should know ive been doing this for 8 years and made this site cos there is a lack of high -level clips out there.

if anyone else has question I will be glad to answer them. negative commentators - go create something and stop bringing other people down. u make me sad.

Webmaster

06-01-2006, 11:47

Josh: He is promoting his site, so the Member Announcements area is where we permit posts of this type.

To everyone: I do not really see this as spam since he is just promoting his site and not selling some silly arsed product. When he starts to claim to cure cancer, then I might have a problem with him.

Last, I thought the video clips were pretty cool. I am not sure that the point of all of the acrobatic stuff is, but it is still pretty cool. I just wonder if they can actually generate any real power behind their kicks.

I also do not like that the content for the site/clips are contained inside of an "inline frame". Not to mention, green text on a black background does not provide enough contrast to be comfortable to read.

Tang-Soo-Architect

06-01-2006, 11:53

Yes.. incredi-bubble. ;)

Gordon Nore

06-01-2006, 17:59

...Last, I thought the video clips were pretty cool. I am not sure that the point of all of the acrobatic stuff is, but it is still pretty cool. I just wonder if they can actually generate any real power behind their kicks.

Agreed on that. I trained in Capoeira for a short time. I could not fly through the air; however, I really respected my teachers' and fellow students' dedication to the art.

Andy, my spam remark was a bit hasty; however, this is the best place for the thread.

Empty_Teacup

06-01-2006, 21:50

Andy, please correct me if I am wrong but I believe Capoeira was developed by African slaves.

They developed this method of combat because they were not allowed to fight in a more traditional sense to resolve differences or agruments. This are was developed with a dance-like quality to cover up their agressive intentions. That is also why I believe you hear the African drums beating in the background of the clips.

I would just like to say that I have always found Capoeira very interesting in that it requires a tremendous amount of muscular power to perform many of the techniques.

Thanks for the videos they were great!

Gordon Nore

06-01-2006, 22:05

Andy, please correct me if I am wrong but I believe Capoeira was developed by African slaves.

They developed this method of combat because they were not allowed to fight in a more traditional sense to resolve differences or agruments. This are was developed with a dance-like quality to cover up their agressive intentions. That is also why I believe you hear the African drums beating in the background of the clips.

Mr Waltzing,
Your brief summary of Capoeira is pretty consistent with everything I've read or heard. This article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capoeira) covers the topic pretty well.

I also like the following title, currently unavailable, according to Amazon.com. Capoeira, a Brazilian Art Form: History, Philosophy, and Practice (ISBN: 093819030X) by Bira Almeida.

Perhaps Andy has titles to recommend.

capoeirascience

06-02-2006, 04:14

Ahhh thats nice, apology accepted, sorry for the over the top entrance and thanks everyone for the support. Yep that Wikipedia article is an excellent introduction. Capoeira Ring of Liberation, by J Lovell Lewis would provide a good contrast to Mestre Acordeon's (Bira Almeida's) book as rather than having been written by a master it is written by a novice - a university lecturer who upon seeing capoeira became fascinated by it (as I was) and so it is an attempt, albeit flawed to understand capoeira through intellectual reasoning. It resounds with my own experience of the martial arts, that struggle to understand everything in a day. Impossible of course these things take years but the thirst for knowledge drive us on.

Another excellent capoeira book is The Little Book of Capoeira by Nestor Capoeira as it provides description of actual movements to a grerater extent than the other two. AL together that would make a complimentary trio.

I'm glad many of you are enjoying the videos, as time goes on I'll be putting more varied clips up - games with older masters, physically disadvantaged players, fighting, things that may challenge general preconceptions of capoeira - that you have to be in supreme condition to enjoy it, that it is always non-contact etc. (preconceptions that at the moment my site is reinforcing!)

cheers, cientista

konosan13

06-02-2006, 08:50

DragonMind

06-02-2006, 10:29

kicks - that you havent seen before - look at mestre ponciano on fire, the red one. he cartwheels in then does a chaka-chaka. this is unique to capoeira as is armada dupla (or double leg), au batido (standing on one arm and kicking over your shoulder) and what about meia lua de compasso!? the bread an butter of capoeira - a reverse roundhouse wih both hands on the floor. this are just a few, capoeira is nothing if not innovative.

if u HAVE seen those kick in other arts i.e. on bilang.com it is becuase the come from capoeira and are absorbed by "tricksters".

any more questions?
cientista
It would help if you translated the terms to English - what is a "chaka-chaka"? As for unique, no I've seen TKD, Kenpo and Hapkido folks do every kick I saw on the videos. Mostly for training purposes, because many of those are impractical or ill-advised in a street fight. I can assure you they were not copied from Capoiera. There are only a finite number of ways the human body can kick and we've had plenty of time to discover them all...repeatedly.

Gordon Nore

06-02-2006, 12:32

...but don't get cought in a fight on the street, you are going to get creamed! :wink2:

Mr Ramero,
In fairness, I don't think anywhere in his enthusiast posts did Andy engage in the My art is the deadliest discussion. Gettin beaten in a street-fight, or betting someone else, does not speak to the core integrity of a martial art, in my opinion.

And Andy,
No I don't think other arts have been plagiarizing capoeira's kicking. As Barry said, at the end of the day, there are just so many ways for one person to kick another. I have seen practitioners who cross-train in Capoeira and another art that involves kicking. (Me) In some instances, one experience will inform the other.

konosan13

06-02-2006, 12:57

Mr Ramero,
In fairness, I don't think anywhere in his enthusiast posts did Andy engage in the My art is the deadliest discussion. Gettin beaten in a street-fight, or betting someone else, does not speak to the core integrity of a martial art, in my opinion.

And Andy,
No I don't think other arts have been plagiarizing capoeira's kicking. As Barry said, at the end of the day, there are just so many ways for one person to kick another. I have seen practitioners who cross-train in Capoeira and another art that involves kicking. (Me) In some instances, one experience will inform the other.

I wasn't suggesting that one might be deadlier than another, if you might have noticed, i didn't compare his thing to another.

And it's spelled with an "o".

In my oppinio getting your butt handed to you on the street is the only guidelines to know if your system workes or not. It certainly dosen't happen in the dojo or on a tournament with rules.

fDMiLKiS

06-02-2006, 15:48

way way way~~~~ too much body movement.

Dennis Monk

06-02-2006, 18:30

And it's spelled with an "o".
Ok.

In my oppinio ....
I believe it is spelled opinion.

Gordon Nore

06-02-2006, 19:33

way way way~~~~ too much body movement.
Frances,

Could you elaborate on that observation? I don't know what "~" means unless I see it in an website URL.

Gordon

capoeirascience

06-05-2006, 06:05

sorry but you are so SO wrong. many of capoeiras kicks are completely different from everything from the east. This is because capoeira did not descend from yoga or chinese martial arts it is African in origin so the family tree is vastly different.

"Au Batido" (portuguse = cartwheel strike) Type it into google and select images. Some breakers call it "L-kick", this winds my teacher right up.

"Armada Dupla" (= double armed (as in weapons not upper limbs) strike)
http://www.trickstutorials.com/index.php?page=content/t_doubleleg
Capoeiristas do this from standing, there will be a clip on my site soon, this guy is not a capoeirista... showing just exactly the large extent of plagiarising capoeira that is happening. Plagiarising is life, how do we learn to speak, walk etc? By copying, I'm not saying its wrong just saying dont come back at me with "L-kicks" and "double legs" you saw in break-dancing or bilang.com

This is but 2 examples, you have made me think that I should definintely put a moves section on my site. Capoeira invents new moves all the time and the combinations get more complex, difficult and bizarre each time. Like breakdancing, it is a changing art where many stles are still engaged in an intense state of evolution, as opposed to say Kung-Fu which has been around for a millenia and has set forms and styles.

Gordon Nore

06-05-2006, 06:32

sorry but you are so SO wrong.

Andy,
Who is so wrong? You didn't indicate whom you were addressing, what s/he said that was wrong in your view.

Dennis Monk

06-05-2006, 10:01

sCapoeira invents new moves all the time and the combinations get more complex, difficult and bizarre each time. Like breakdancing, it is a changing art where many stles are still engaged in an intense state of evolution, as opposed to say Kung-Fu which has been around for a millenia and has set forms and styles.
You see, when I watched the videos and saw the (whatever he is) doing the little head spin thing; I knew that all those breakdancers from the 1980's had stolen the idea from someone. I had no idea that it was from Capoeira. So did the Capoeira people invent the "worm", the "robot" and the concept of "poppin" and "lockin" too?

Tony Dismukes

06-05-2006, 11:21

Here (LINK) (http://www.alternet.org/wiretap/87/) is an article on the relationship between capoeira and breakdancing.

Dennis Monk

06-05-2006, 11:26

I have now watched all of the videos on the website. I will admit that the practioners of this ....."art" are very athletic and acrobatic. What I do not see, nor have I yet to see, is the application of Capoeira in any form of actual sparring. I have seen no contact, I have not seen anything remotely considered self defense. I am not saying that I don't believe it is there. I am saying that I have not seen it yet. Please, so that I do not continue with a distorted view of Capoeira, show me a video of two people fighting with at least one of them using Capoeira. I would be happy being able to see a video of people wearing hand and foot pads, doing Capoeira, and actually making contact with each other. I am sure these videos exist, right? Surely, I am am not saying that this is the case, but I would hope that Capoeira is not referred to as a "martial" art with no actual "martial" applications.
I am being very serious. I can respect the acrobatic and athlectic agility of anyone in any sport or artform. I condider ballet dancers, and figure skaters way high up on the list. They, however, appear to be as they are described.

Tony Dismukes

06-05-2006, 12:04

Dennis, in all fairness, there are a number of schools of Asian based martial arts schools that just practice forms and never do any sparring with contact. I don't particularly think that's an effective way of training for combat, but such forms are still typically graced with the title of "martial art."

I've seen examples of capoeira fighting applications in books, but not yet in videos, so I too would be curious to see them demonstrated. I understand that in earlier years, capoeira had more of a bad reputation as a streetfighting art. I get the impression that there is more of an effort to emphasize the artistic/cultural side of the art these days. Perhaps Andy can clarify that. I'd like to know how many capoeiristas practice the martial arts aspect as much as the cultural dance/game.

I also understand that historically, the dance/game in the roda was a way for an oppressed people to train without being seen to train in fighting. Thus the movements are disguised. Even in the current version, I've read that there is a concept of being prepared for treachery. Your opponent/partner in the roda may join with you in demonstrating beautiful moves ... or they just might nail you with something in the middle of the flow. The videos I've watched so far seem to show that - no real impact, but certainly some moments of "I could have just landed something on you just then." Once again, I'd like to hear what Andy or any other experienced capoeirista has to say on the subject.

Dennis Monk

06-05-2006, 13:07

Like I said, I want to see it. I really don't want to have the wrong idea about capoeira.
I just don't get it. As far as agility, upper body strength, gymnastic ability and balance goes: I have to give it an A+.
My grade for what I have seen of its "martial" nature would be somewhat lower. That is until I can actually see it for myself in a real fight setting.

Tony Dismukes

06-05-2006, 13:41

My grade for what I have seen of its "martial" nature would be somewhat lower.

That much seems fair, given that it is widely practiced as a cultural dance/game at least as much as a martial art. I know the martial aspects are there, but I'm curious as to how widely emphasized they are and what they look like when they are emphasized.

The only capoeirista I know of to fight NHB is Mestre Hulk. I haven't seen any of his fights, but Sherdog (LINK) (http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=1742) shows that all his wins are by punching, which I wouldn't expect to see if he was using pure capoeira for his fighting techniques. If any capoeiristas out there have seen his NHB fights, I'd like to know what you thought of what he shows in those fights.

Tony Dismukes

06-05-2006, 14:07

OK, I've found another NHB fighter who uses capoeira. Jean Silva (LINK) (http://www.jeansilva.co.uk/english/bio.html) list capoeira as one of his foundational arts (along with BJJ). I'm not sure how much of it actually comes out in his fights, though. I can't watch too much of his fight clips at work, but it seems like he's applying the standard MMA techniques, with a few flashy kicks thrown in for variety. Presumably those come from capoeira.

DragonMind

06-05-2006, 15:02

sorry but you are so SO wrong. many of capoeiras kicks are completely different from everything from the east. This is because capoeira did not descend from yoga or chinese martial arts it is African in origin so the family tree is vastly different.
Since I believe you are addressing me, I have to disagree with you. The "family tree" here is the human body. There are only a finite number of ways of kicking. Capoeira, being as young as it is, is not discovering anything new, merely re-discovering what others have already tried. Many of the kicks you showed have been rejected from older styles because they aren't practical in a martial sense. I agree with Dennis that it is pretty to watch and the videos show a good degree of fitness and agility. I'm with him, too in waiting to see where the martial part comes in. Tony's point about styles today having no sparring is valid but misses the point that they are still adaptations of things that have already been proven in combat.

Dennis Monk

06-05-2006, 15:35

I watched the videos of Jean Silva; not really impressed. He does some of the Capoeira stuff like somersaults and such while his opponent is all the way across the ring. I think it is more of a show off thing than anything else.
I still really want to see Capoeira stuff in "real life" applications. As much as I am a fan of NHB/MMA, it isn't real life. There are rules.

Gordon Nore

06-05-2006, 17:12

...in all fairness, there are a number of schools of Asian based martial arts schools that just practice forms and never do any sparring with contact. I don't particularly think that's an effective way of training for combat, but such forms are still typically graced with the title of "martial art."

This is part of the reason that I accept Capoeira as a martial art. Also, in my training, there were rules for class, a rank structure, a mestre (master), and many of the conventions of other martial arts. However, I do not see it as a combative art. As I've posted elsewhere, Capoeira makes sense in its own context: two Capoeiristas playing together in the roda (circle). Take a Capoeirista and put him against a karateka (or whatever martial artist you choose), and you have a scene from any of a dozen secret-fight-to-the-death-martial-arts-tournament-somewhere-in-Asia movies.

The reason, I believe, is that Capoeira is played by its own, unique set of rules. To my knowledge, unless the commercialization of the art has caused some big changes in the last few years, there is no such thing as a Capoeira tournament. I believe the art would lose something in the effort to score its performers.

Barry, I agree with everything you said about kicking and more. Andy, your two examples of kicks do not negate Barry's argument. What gives Capoeira is unique flair is the ability of artists, playing together, to deliver kick after kick after kick. Take out the showier, less practical kicks (they exist in many arts), and I think a good Capoeira teacher can teach any martial arts student a lot of useful kicking basics, just like a good karate or Tae Kwon Do teacher can. That was certainly my experience. Capoeira improved my kicking generally, particularly my ability to deliver basic kicks with less effort and more effect.

I think the Capoeira community has a wonderful art -- I have great respect for it. But I also believe it is very unique in the martial arts community and does not need to be compared to other arts for it to have value.

bustr

06-05-2006, 22:16

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8145595176120914316&q=capoeira

Dennis Monk

06-06-2006, 00:06

Hey Michael, long time no see.
Sorry, but that appeared to be more like Tae Kwon Do with punches meets gymnastics.

capoeirascience

06-06-2006, 04:38

Dragon Mind your theory that nothing is new is flawed on two points.

One: you say the the human body is finite.. ok, it is but the human MIND is not finite or at least if it is we are LONG from reaching or understanding its limits. The mind controls the body and gives rise to innovation, there are many ideas we have not yet had, evolution continues. capoeira is evolving.

Two: You said that everything has been done before and is either being re-used or re-discovered. This is impossible conjecture and unquantifiable. How will you prove this? What IS possible however is to look for proof of cross-over by studying specific movements from any one art and if they are exclusive to that art we can legitimately say they "belong" there (I gave you two examples of this in capoeira already). We can then look at other arts which have come about at a later date, see the same movement, modified, incorporated into another move and often applied for a different end and say wow! look at that it came from... example one:- Kung-fu get up move from the ground seen performed in the acrobatic schools in "monks" shows etc. , they spin on their backs whip their legs in front of them causing them to roll on their shoulders and they are on their feet. mix this with the "turtle" from breakdancing where dancers balance in a planche, bodies horizontal to floor arms bent at elbows and elbows pressed into abdomen hands on floor, they spin in a circle by tranferring weight from one hand to the other. mix these moves together in an endless cycle and you have.. the windmill. the classic move that indentifies breakdancing (or b-boying). result = new move, circa 1970s the windmill. this is proveable, not beyond doubt but I find it more satisfying than your philosphical truism.

capoeirascience

06-06-2006, 05:22

ok u want contact, you got it.

gordon, you are correct - capoeira makes sense in its own context. it has rules and conventions. however there are and have been capoeira tournaments in brazil since the 70s, perhaps before. look at this clip of muscular individuals trying to score knock-outs, hard-kicks, punches and grapples on each other. dangerous stuff. konasan, I dont think these guys would get 'creamed in the street'
Muzenza Capoeira Tournament (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8187511154475743278&q=muzenza+capoeira)

dennis, more contact for you. in the roda anything can happen, real emotions adrenaline etc. play a part. brazil is nothing if not at times chaotic. it depends on the school, the indiviual personalities invloved etc. this kind of violence is frowned upon within my school, cordao de ouro. but these guys are from CDO? so why does one knock the other out with a side kick to the head? because they deciced to play like that, they enjoy it and one brought it on but could not keep it up in the end. these are high level players.. so its up to them!
capoeira knock-out shot (http://mapage.noos.fr/d1autremonde/fortalez.html)

bustr, that clip was gymnastics and he obviously knows more about TKDO or something. capoeiristas do not use tramploines. just hard, bare floor, tramps would not help, i have tried! he knows some capoeira but he is nowhere near the level of the guys on my site.

capoeirascience

06-06-2006, 06:24

adminstrator, please remove post #42 and this one. it was an accidental duplicate then i tried to edit it to make it a new reply and then it timed out. sorry!

thanks, cientista

Webmaster

06-06-2006, 08:23

adminstrator, please remove post #42 and this one. it was an accidental duplicate then i tried to edit it to make it a new reply and then it timed out. sorry!

thanks, cientista
Done.

Since this has turned into a real discussion, I have moved it to the "Other Arts" Forum.

Dennis Monk

06-06-2006, 11:09

Getting close to what I want. It is really hard to discern anything from videos made up of constantly changing scenes and then at the end a guy is knocked down by a high front leg round kick. It seemed to me that the very few instances of contact in the last two videos, that the contact was a standard form of strike. Round kicks, front kicks and snap kicks all pre-date the African slaves in Brasil, so therefore would pre-date capoeira; thus solidifying Dragonmind's argument.
I appreciate your effort in providing videos that show capoiera to have some martial semblance to it. Although I am not convinced as of yet, at least I finally saw contact; whether it looked intentional or not.

capoeirascience

06-06-2006, 12:21

Dennis, I didnt say ALL of capoeira was original I would never think such a thing. and yes of course there is much truth in Dragon Minds argument but I beleive it is fundamentally flawed and cannot be appleid to everything. I said that capoeira has a FEW kicks of its own which other arts have assimilated namely what is to be found on bilang and breakdancers. capoeira has assimilated too, a lot! for the record I dont beleive breakdancing came from capoeira, i wrote a 10,000 word dissartation on this, there are influences and the same african family tree in terms of circles of interaction, rap type repeateing chants/calls an other stuff but I beleive breakings history has more to do with north american plantation dances, what became tap dance (not to mention 70s kung-fu flicks) and body popping ... "muscle isolation" is done by the Ashanti at funeral rites.

I know the individual invloved in that knockout clip, that 'martelo' (side kick) was meant for the guys head, after years of playing capoeira your reflexes get very good and he wouldnt make a mistake like that. those particular guys have little else to do there.. no industy and no jobs in fortaleza, i just visited them and many live in squalid conditions (by UK standards) and train, train, train. but theyre happy, dont get me wrong here.

did you watch the first clip? its a tournament and they're sizing each other up the whole time rather than it just turning into a fight like the knockout. gone are the somersaults. too much danger for me!

Cameron

06-06-2006, 12:46

I beleive breakings history has more to do with north american plantation dances, what became tap dance (not to mention 70s kung-fu flicks) and body popping ... "muscle isolation" is done by the Ashanti at funeral rites.

Could you elaborate more on this? I am interested.
Especially about the 80's Kung fu flicks, how exactly are they related?

fDMiLKiS

06-06-2006, 15:09

Frances,

Could you elaborate on that observation? I don't know what "~" means unless I see it in an website URL.

Gordon

I meant to say way way waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy too much budy movement. They can get their face ripped apart by a simple roundhouse kick or a flying side kick and their hands are too busy holding their body off the ground.

Also

and Frances is a girls name :rolleyes:

Gordon Nore

06-06-2006, 15:16

...and Frances is a girls name :rolleyes:

Typo. Apologies. :bow:

DragonMind

06-06-2006, 15:45

Dragon Mind your theory that nothing is new is flawed on two points.
More accurately, what I said was nothing you have shown us in the videos is new or original.

One: you say the the human body is finite.. ok, it is but the human MIND is not finite or at least if it is we are LONG from reaching or understanding its limits. The mind controls the body and gives rise to innovation, there are many ideas we have not yet had, evolution continues. capoeira is evolving.
Your mind can dream up all sorts of things your body can't do, e.g. levitation, chi-balls, monkeys flying out of butts, etc. Just because you can dream it, doesn't make it part of the realm of the physical world. We have a really good idea of the limits of the physical body and Jason (jwinch) can enumerate them at length. Capoeira may be evolving within its own sphere, but it hasn't invented new ways for the body to move. Unless you grow a third arm or a second knee joint in the same leg, we have a pretty good idea of what kinds of kicks are possible. Minor tweaks and tricks do not a new kick make.

Two: You said that everything has been done before and is either being re-used or re-discovered. This is impossible conjecture and unquantifiable. How will you prove this? What IS possible however is to look for proof of cross-over by studying specific movements from any one art and if they are exclusive to that art we can legitimately say they "belong" there (I gave you two examples of this in capoeira already). We can then look at other arts which have come about at a later date, see the same movement, modified, incorporated into another move and often applied for a different end and say wow! look at that it came from... example one:- Kung-fu get up move from the ground seen performed in the acrobatic schools in "monks" shows etc. , they spin on their backs whip their legs in front of them causing them to roll on their shoulders and they are on their feet. mix this with the "turtle" from breakdancing where dancers balance in a planche, bodies horizontal to floor arms bent at elbows and elbows pressed into abdomen hands on floor, they spin in a circle by tranferring weight from one hand to the other. mix these moves together in an endless cycle and you have.. the windmill. the classic move that indentifies breakdancing (or b-boying). result = new move, circa 1970s the windmill. this is proveable, not beyond doubt but I find it more satisfying than your philosphical truism.
Again, what I said was that Capoeira isn't inventing anything new and that the range of possible kicks has been pretty well exhausted. It is a young art compared to many. While there may be signature kicks in one style or another that does not mean they "own" them; merely that they are prevalent there. As for your example, it is flawed reasoning. All you have done is taken two existing things, combined them and given that combination a new name. That is hardly inventive and certainly doesn't define a new way of movement.

David Craik

06-06-2006, 16:23

You mean monkeys can't fly out of butts? As Barry says, the human body only moves a limited number of ways, and pretty much all of those have been figured out over the course of thousands of years. This is why a move which would break an arm in 300 B.C. will still break arms today. Damn evolution...so friggin' slow.

Is any capoeira still taught where blades are used, like back in the old days?

capoeirascience

06-07-2006, 11:29

the human body only moves a limited number of ways, and pretty much all of those have been figured out over the course of thousands of years. ?

Yes this has been said on this thread, repeatedly. As I said, it cannot be proven. Unless you have been watching this last 1000 years. The ancient chinese were not short on writing and research themselves you know.. so lets see some shaolin texts about the experimentation and eventual loss of one armed hand stand kicks. Either that or quit with the gilb, un-informed replies! I gave 2 specific examples (armada dupla and au batido) that are not combinations of exisiting things but moves in their own right... which you would understand if you could do them.

I also gave the example of the breakdancing windmill - a weird and wonderful move, glaringly original and showed how it came partly from wu-shu. I didn't even mention the butterfly twist which only exists in wu-shu but then later can be seen done by capoeiristas. Through it's absence in all other traditional eastern arts can one deduce then that butterfly twist belongs to kung-fu and was copied by capoeiristas? Wow!!! What am I some kind of genius? No. I'm an academic and I research the things I talk about. I have a BA in Portuguese and Brazilian studies from Kings College London and I have studied movement patterns from Africa to present day Brazil. I can also do the movements, see my showreel.

For more information on transnational African customs in the Americas see
"The Black Atlantic", by Paul Gilroy.

There is another important book about muscular heritage i.e. re-remembered movement and music patterns from Angola to Brazil that relates directly to capoeira, breakdancing, rap and other forms of popular expression rooted in Africa but developed in the new world.. but I need to hunt out its title.

Dragon Mind, What gives you the right to the definitve answer on the entire history of human movement, martial arts and dance? Are you a grandmaster of several styles from different continents? Can your body do 'everything'? Me? Im just a student sharing what I studied...

Please no silly replies about monkeys and asses this time, dont show yourself up!

Dennis Monk

06-07-2006, 12:19

Mr. Eadie, I am going to strongly caution you to choose your words more carefully. You are the one taking the offensive here and have done so since early on. You are actually duped in believing that this art has developed something that is totally different than what anyone, anywhere alese in the world has come up with before; especially when other arts pre date capoeira by some 1000 years. OK, so be it. You can believe in the tooth fairy too, if you wish. You keep claiming "un-informed" replies. Prove your "informed" status. You don't have to turn everything here into a pissing contest. People don't agree with you that capoeira has much, if anything original, and you go into vapor lock. So What!

capoeirascience

06-08-2006, 08:09

Apologies if I sounded offensive. However if we are to trace the history of this post I was forced into the defensive early on... apologies have been made so I feel no need to re-visit this issue.

I stated my university credentials in the previous post and I can add to that 8 years of training in capoeira including 2 years living in Brazil and that I have loved and studied oriental arts including ninjitsu and Judo for a few years each in addition to reading up on other arts since my teens. Along with gymnastics, trampolining and high-diving I have continued to train sport karate/capoeira/tae-kwon-do type kicks of the bilang type at various london gyms (I wanted to be a stunt man). After all that I'm still not that good but I train capoeira every day.

My point is that my all of my arguments come with a quantifiable backing, they are to the point and do not digress into what I earlier termed as 'silliness' (the monkeys flying out of butts comment). I also merely pointed out that traditional eastern martial arts were and still are exhaustively documented.

I stand by my argument, my points are valid but I apologise to all concerned if my aggressive tone distracted from these points.

DragonMind

06-08-2006, 16:40

Yes this has been said on this thread, repeatedly. As I said, it cannot be proven. Unless you have been watching this last 1000 years.
Don't have to, there are medical texts dating back hundreds of years explaining the anatomy and physiology of the human body. There was also this guy in Europe a while back who studied the human body quite extensively and left a multitude of writings on the subject. Fellow by the name of Da Vinci, ever heard of him?

The ancient chinese were not short on writing and research themselves you know.. so lets see some shaolin texts about the experimentation and eventual loss of one armed hand stand kicks.
Interesting that you think the Chinese were the only ones with a one-armed handstand. I know for a fact that Ernie Reyes and Tom Callos have been teaching that in Korean styles for many years. I have video of Tom teaching it to a kids class from a decade ago!

Either that or quit with the gilb, un-informed replies! I gave 2 specific examples (armada dupla and au batido) that are not combinations of exisiting things but moves in their own right... which you would understand if you could do them.
The brainwashed one here appears to be you. Those "moves" are just minor variations of existing kicks and can be found in other arts. Your two-legged kick was rejected in Hapkido for a single leg version due to the extreme lead-in required to perform the kick and the ease of avoiding/countering it. And why do you assume I can't do those moves? You know next to nothing about me.

I also gave the example of the breakdancing windmill - a weird and wonderful move, glaringly original and showed how it came partly from wu-shu. How can something be "glaringly original" while defined as coming from other sources? It might have been unknown compared to the inventory of steps in classic ballroom dancing, but it is hardly original.

I didn't even mention the butterfly twist which only exists in wu-shu but then later can be seen done by capoeiristas. Through it's absence in all other traditional eastern arts can one deduce then that butterfly twist belongs to kung-fu and was copied by capoeiristas? Wow!!! What am I some kind of genius?
No, sadly misinformed. Had you done any real research in the martial arts instead of what you hear from your own group, you'd know how stupid that statement is. There are that style of kicks in Japanese, Chinese, Korean, French and Hawaiin based arts; sometimes under different names (e.g. butterfly, tornado, etc.).

No. I'm an academic and I research the things I talk about.
Apparently, not very thoroughly.

I have a BA in Portuguese and Brazilian studies from Kings College London and I have studied movement patterns from Africa to present day Brazil.
OK, I have a BA in Experimental Psychology, MS in Education, and PhD in Computer Science. I also hold dan rankings in four styles and have been doing martial arts for 12 years longer than you've been alive. Now that the game of Mine is Bigger Than Yours is over, let's get back to the subject at hand.

Dragon Mind, What gives you the right to the definitve answer on the entire history of human movement, martial arts and dance? Are you a grandmaster of several styles from different continents? Can your body do 'everything'? Me? Im just a student sharing what I studied...

Please no silly replies about monkeys and asses this time, dont show yourself up!
As a wise man once said, "If I see further, it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants." You are relying on myths and fables within your own little clique and ignoring the thousands of man-years of work in anatomy, physiology, sports medicine, combatives, and martial arts history. You're also turning a blind eye to common sense and the obvious. You keep saying you have a "quantifiable backing" but cite no credible resources. You posted some videos and when people said cute but unimpressed, you screech about how wonderful capoeira is. None of us disagreed that it is certainly athletic, looks interesting but has some serious problems as a combative art that we can see. Instead of showing counter-evidence you start talking about break-dancing. Am I to assume that, following your reasoning above, capoeira is the basis for XMA?

Gordon Nore

06-08-2006, 17:11

Wow!!! What am I some kind of genius? No. I'm an academic and I research the things I talk about. I have a BA in Portuguese and Brazilian studies from Kings College London and I have studied movement patterns from Africa to present day Brazil. I can also do the movements, see my showreel.

Mr Eadie,
The videos were fine, very entertaining. I've tried to follow this thread, but your analysis is bewildering to me. You profess to be an academic with serious research intentions, and you post this...

{from post #47 (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=185111&postcount=47)}...for the record I dont beleive breakdancing came from capoeira, i wrote a 10,000 word dissartation on this, there are influences and the same african family tree in terms of circles of interaction, rap type repeateing chants/calls an other stuff but I beleive breakings history has more to do with north american plantation dances, what became tap dance (not to mention 70s kung-fu flicks) and body popping ... "muscle isolation" is done by the Ashanti at funeral rites.

Academic degress are not a requirement to participate in an online community. If you insist upon using your academic authority as the basis for your arguments, I think better tighten up your game.

capoeirascience

06-09-2006, 04:20

I mis-spelt several words, thanks for pointing this out! This is an excellent point Mr Nore. Academics should not mispell. I shall endeavour to proof-read all I do in the future.

David Craik

06-09-2006, 05:10

Either that or quit with the gilb, un-informed replies! I gave 2 specific examples (armada dupla and au batido) that are not combinations of exisiting things but moves in their own right... which you would understand if you could do them.

Nope, I don't have to quit a damn thing actually. I've no desire to 'do them', didn't have any real want to jump around like a monkey a la the Electric Boogaloo in the 80's nor do I today. I don't see the combative value of wasting energy, doing one-armed handstands, or kicks that will put one on their backside in the unlikely event that they actually connect. Possibly very few others did either, which would account for capoeira's perceived uniqueness.

capoeirascience

06-09-2006, 08:58

Dragon mind you said in your last post
(...) there are medical texts dating back hundreds of years explaining the anatomy and physiology of the human body. There was also this guy in Europe a while back who studied the human body quite extensively and left a multitude of writings on the subject. Fellow by the name of Da Vinci, ever heard of him?

this refers to anatomy not movements. I was talking about new ways of moving not new parts of the anotomy, it's what you do with it that is important.

Interesting that you think the Chinese were the only ones with a one-armed handstand. I know for a fact that Ernie Reyes and Tom Callos have been teaching that in Korean styles for many years. I have video of Tom teaching it to a kids class from a decade ago!

I just used the Chinese as an example. One armed handstands are everywhere being quite a simple movement. Au batido is a bit different, it is a one armed handstand kick where the kicking leg lies along the shoulder of the arm not being used for support. APologies if this is what you were reffering to however it doesn't preclude the idea that they were incorporated from Capoeira.

The brainwashed one here appears to be you. Those "moves" are just minor variations of existing kicks and can be found in other arts. Your two-legged kick was rejected in Hapkido for a single leg version due to the extreme lead-in required to perform the kick and the ease of avoiding/countering it. And why do you assume I can't do those moves? You know next to nothing about me.

I didn't say anyone was brainwashed but the very fact that you are talking about Hapkido rejecting those kicks interest me, when was this? Does it predate contact with capoeira? If it does I would be willing to re-think the Armada Dupla (double-leg). The truth is I dont beleive all of capoeiras movements are original, but I beleive a lot of people have found interesting things in capoeira and there has been cross-pollination across the arts. I assumed you couldnt do those moves because in my experience of people that can do those moves they cite capoeira as an origin which you have refused flatly to do on any point whatsoever. See thisthread (http://www.trickstutorials.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10658) from Tricks Tutorials from people that can do the moves and know the origins.
(To save you time many tricks ares discussed as the trick of all tricking but then dismissed as gymnastisc, capoeira, another martial art etc.)

How can something be "glaringly original" while defined as coming from other sources? It might have been unknown compared to the inventory of steps in classic ballroom dancing, but it is hardly original.

What I meant is that the windmill is marked enough to have captured the imagination of a generation of kids. No matter how little someone knows about the art, show most people a windmill and they instantly identify it with breaking. You can be able to do the seperate parts of the windmill but without the transition you cant actually do it, I beleive it stands on its own as a move but if you dont agree, ok.

No, sadly misinformed. Had you done any real research in the martial arts instead of what you hear from your own group, you'd know how stupid that statement is. There are that style of kicks in Japanese, Chinese, Korean, French and Hawaiin based arts; sometimes under different names (e.g. butterfly, tornado, etc.).

As I said I researched at University, studied other eastern arts and I train with martial artists of all different backgrounds at various London gyms... I mentioned butterfly twist. Where one spins 360 degrees the body locked straight horizontal to the floor. In a French based art? I would like to hear more about that. Just so we're talking about the same move here and not a butterfly kick or tornado kick heres a clip of a butterfly twist. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHIhggszf0Q) (teh first is butteflly kick the second is butterfly twist)

OK, I have a BA in Experimental Psychology, MS in Education, and PhD in Computer Science. I also hold dan rankings in four styles and have been doing martial arts for 12 years longer than you've been alive. Now that the game of Mine is Bigger Than Yours is over, let's get back to the subject at hand.

Thats great but my degree was specific to my subject, all that means is I have studied capoeira in depth. I much prefer debate to slanging or irreverent comments.

As a wise man once said, "If I see further, it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants." You are relying on myths and fables within your own little clique and ignoring the thousands of man-years of work in anatomy, physiology, sports medicine, combatives, and martial arts history. You're also turning a blind eye to common sense and the obvious. You keep saying you have a "quantifiable backing" but cite no credible resources. You posted some videos and when people said cute but unimpressed, you screech about how wonderful capoeira is. None of us disagreed that it is certainly athletic, looks interesting but has some serious problems as a combative art that we can see. Instead of showing counter-evidence you start talking about break-dancing. Am I to assume that, following your reasoning above, capoeira is the basis for XMA?

Whos the giant, what's his name, where can I get a copy of his book/video to back-up your theory? I cited sources and what's wrong with my resources? I mentioned some good books and gave videos as evidence. Dennis wanted contact I gave links to two videos of contact. And I mentioned breakdancing because like XMA it is relevant, connected and I was actually asked for more info about it on this thread. Incidentally I agree with you on teh comabtive point but the same goes for Karate, Kung-Fu, Tae-Kwon-DO - one on one combat there is only one winner, the grapplers as Ultimate Fighting has shown.

:eek: One thing I would like to clarify is that I do not beleive capoeira is the basis for XMA. I beleive that traditional marital eastern arts are, and XMA builds on these, sometimes incorporating techniques found in other arts and often inventing anew. You will find that Bilang, Club 540 and Tricks Tutorials among others will cite capoeira as a great source of inspiration but not as the basis for XMA. :wink2: