View Full Version : Developing Self Defense class for Women
My husband and I are working on developing a Women's self defense class . The audience will likely be suburban moms. I'm planning on including the following topics
Awareness (situational and your surroundings)
Statistics on violence (specifically sexual assault)
Using your surroundings (both for escape and defense)
verbal and non-verbal de-escalation
Body targets (groin, knee, neck, instep etc.)
Body weapons (knees, elbows, fists etc.)
physical techniques (simple but effective techniques)
laws about self defense in Texas
Post assault - things to do (and not do) if you've been assaulted (information comes from a SANE nurse)
Does anyone see anything else that should be included, things that they think should be taken out (and why), or have any comments?
Matthew Jones
07-13-2006, 12:49
I've heard these guys put on really good, realistic stuff. Check it out.
http://www.modelmugging.org/
littlecelt
07-13-2006, 18:35
Have you thought of including the following States of Awareness:Cooper Color Codes (http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States%20of%20Awareness.htm)? I would suggest that you spend time on weapons such as small bra knives or concealable guns, since they are legal in TX right? Knives will require training for use in a self-protection mode, just as a gun would. We've had threads on this.
If you're targeting surburban moms, have you thought about a special add-on for the kids? I've seen one school that even worked with the PD and had scenarios for the kids on abduction examples, etc...
Musubi Dojo
07-13-2006, 21:50
If you search previous threads you'll find some great posts on the subject by Rory Miller.
Cheers
c
DragonMind
07-13-2006, 21:56
Adrenal stress response including differences in rates between men and women. Psychological impact of assaut and violence. Use and carrying tactical weapons like a flashlight (e.g. SureFire Z2), folding pocket knife, expandable baton (Monadnock rather than ASP), or civilian Taser.
But I have to ask some questions that your proposed curriculum doesn't seem to address. What do you think suburban moms need defense against, i.e. are you talking about smackdown at a white sale or a home invasion rape scenario? Are you talking about crime of opportunity muggings or spouse abuse? You mention sexual assault, but seem to be focused on unarmed responses. Thinking that unarmed against a sexual assailant is a reasonable approach is ignoring a lot of realities and is doing the woman a disservice. Besides which, it takes less time and skill to use a weapon than it does to become proficient enough with unarmed techniques to hope to have a chance against a bigger, stronger and determined attacker. I really hope you talk to your local LEOs that specialize in assault and homicide and get a realistic take on the dynamics of violence. Please read the articles that Rory Miller has written on these subjects. [Note - Chris posted while I was still writing. Rory is the expert I turn to when it comes to the nature of violence.]
Have you thought of including the following States of Awareness:Cooper Color Codes? I would suggest that you spend time on weapons such as small bra knives or concealable guns, since they are legal in TX right? Knives will require training for use in a self-protection mode, just as a gun would. We've had threads on this.
We may include the Cooper Color Codes, it is certainly under consideration. I will likely mention weapons, and I will try and find places where they can receive training in them, but I am not qualified to teach them in any way, and so I am not going to attempt that.
If you're targeting surburban moms, have you thought about a special add-on for the kids? I've seen one school that even worked with the PD and had scenarios for the kids on abduction examples, etc...
That's a great idea! I hadn't thought of that.
really hope you talk to your local LEOs that specialize in assault and homicide and get a realistic take on the dynamics of violence.
I have every intention of doing this, but I have not yet gotten that far into the project.
My husband and I are working on developing a Women's self defense class . The audience will likely be suburban moms. I'm planning on including the following topics
....
laws about self defense in Texas
....
Does anyone see anything else that should be included, things that they think should be taken out (and why), or have any comments?
Hi Jessica.
The list sounds great and other members have certainly given you good advice.
I would be a little careful about quoting the law. As black and white as it appears, it can be very subjective when put to the test. Perhaps you can invite a member of the local police to come in and address specific issues - including that one.
Best of luck with it. Let us know how it goes. :)
I would be a little careful about quoting the law. As black and white as it appears, it can be very subjective when put to the test. Perhaps you can invite a member of the local police to come in and address specific issues - including that one.
The best thing to do in that case after you've spoken to an LEO/DA/Prosecutor is if there any pertintent case law.
Case law, for those that may not know, is the court decision and interpretation of a praticular law after it has been through the courts.
Even asking a lawyer of LEO can get murkey if the case law is still fluctuating. In Ohio, for example, there was an attempt to outlaw certain kinds of knives. As a result of poor writing there was confusion among the enforcement community and hard feelings between them and martial artists and knife owners. Same for guns, etc. There were arguments about what constituted lethal force, justifiable, etc. There was a lot of misinformation that came from some police only because they were repeating what they were told by their departments, which may have been an over reaction or just plain wrong. It was a mess due to the politicians putting the wrong kind of pressure on the LEOs.
Fortunately it got sorted out. But I found the best sources may be in the local academies because they try to stay on top of common law and policy. They will even tell you out right how interpretations vary by local. The ones I know are also better trained at presentations and really like talking about their subjects so can give good presentations to your classes.
But I found the best sources may be in the local academies because they try to stay on top of common law and policy. They will even tell you out right how interpretations vary by local. The ones I know are also better trained at presentations and really like talking about their subjects so can give good presentations to your classes.
While I agree with this the only caveat I have is that in some states as in this one 9NJ) non-leo's cannot attend the academies for that type of training.
I know some states have civilian academies, but do they delve into case law?
Something to look into.
Just please teach them how to fight effective, and spend less time on blowing whistles...
We'll do our best :)
While I agree with this the only caveat I have is that in some states as in this one 9NJ) non-leo's cannot attend the academies for that type of training.
I know some states have civilian academies, but do they delve into case law?
Something to look into.
I am learning how much I don't know...Thanks Guys!!
While I agree with this the only caveat I have is that in some states as in this one 9NJ) non-leo's cannot attend the academies for that type of training.
I know some states have civilian academies, but do they delve into case law?
Something to look into.
Good point. The regular class stuff would not apply 90% anyway. What I mean is just ask the guys or gals to give you a bit of time and tell them what you are loking for. They usually get really excited and love to speak to groups, especially if you are talking women's self-defense. My local shooting club is operated by LEOs who have lots of classes on armed and unarmed civilian as well as LEO defensive tactics. Aside from the actual tactics they can serve as a great source for actual legal information so you don't fall for misinformation.
littlecelt
07-17-2006, 16:10
Jessica, I know you took part in the "Myths of Self-Defense" discussion
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15023
It's a long thread, but there are some very relevant topics in the thread. It also has some really great reference sites for materials as well.
littlecelt
07-18-2006, 16:49
I know that there are different requirements and options when working with the local PD’s, but instead of having someone come in to interpret the law or review case law, here's another option for you.
What if you have an officer review the procedures anyone should expect to encounter once that phone call has been made to 911? This is something that your local LEO can speak to and I'm willing to bet that the folks in your class will have no idea of what is about to happen. For instance, would a victim ever expect to be arrested? If an officer shows up and there are several people involved, all giving different stories, some trying to mislead the police and leave the scene; the quickest and easiest way to sort everything out is to arrest everyone and take them all with you to the station. What if they’re injured and the officer suggests they give their statement before going to the hospital, etc… Different situations have different types of actions.
Would one of the LEO's here please confirm this? I've heard this type of presentation done and it went over very well.
If you dont mind me asking, how are you planning on structuring and teaching the technical training portion of the class? Also, what were you planning to show. Overall the program looks good. I have always been a big advocate of teaching awareness as well as psychological tactics but being able to pull off what you show is of uber importance.
Robert Soliz
If you dont mind me asking, how are you planning on structuring and teaching the technical training portion of the class?
By technical training portion do you mean the actual physical techniques? or do you mean something else?
but being able to pull off what you show is of uber importance.
Agreed! I suspect we will run a "dress rehersal" with people we know but who have had little to no experience in martial arts to make sure we have the stuff down really well in advance.
As a general outline of the class, it will be a 5-6 week course that runs once a week for an hour and a half. The first half hour of each class will be discussion of statistics, awareness, what to do if you've been assaulted etc. (different topic every week) and the last hour will be learning and practicing the techniques.
We are planning on bringing in a few assistants to act as the "bad guys" so that the women can have a few people to practice on if they choose. We will have something in the booklet that says they don't HAVE to practice techniques that may make them uncomfortable, but we strongly reccomend that they do. (we definitely don't want to accidentally traumatize someone that's already been assaulted)
Let me know if I answered your question...if not I'll try again :)
By technical training portion do you mean the actual physical techniques? or do you mean something else?
Yup thats exactly my question.
We are planning on bringing in a few assistants to act as the "bad guys" so that the women can have a few people to practice on if they choose. We will have something in the booklet that says they don't HAVE to practice techniques that may make them uncomfortable, but we strongly reccomend that they do. (we definitely don't want to accidentally traumatize someone that's already been assaulted)
I would strongly urge them to do it hands on. I can see where you dont want to traumatize someone but I think a good physical training session will be good. I would rather they become traumatized in class then have them freak out and freeze when they dont need to. Think of how many women dont know how they will react if they are assualted. Once they get over that initial fear, they can become more prepared to defend themselves. Fear management is an important part of self defense training IMO. Also, part of the physical training is not just for technical development but it also helps to teach these women what they are capable of doing to someone. I had so many friends in college who never imagined they could defend themselves if they needed to. When I taught them how to hit (and where to hit) and then had them practice striking something, they were often surprised with the power they could generate. It helps empower them. In many cases this can help. I really dont like the Model Mugging suit. I think its unnatural and unrealistic (thats why I like Tony Blauer's suit but its $$$$) but at least the women can hit it. Just my two cents.
Robert Soliz
Think of how many women dont know how they will react if they are assualted.
Actually I was thinking of women who had already been assaulted. Since I don't know what would trigger a flashback then I want the option in there that they can just watch. Obviously for the vast majority of people in the class I would strongly encourage them to participate.
If you dont mind me asking, how are you planning on structuring and teaching the technical training portion of the class?
We're still working this out and getting feedback from others who have taught this kind of class, but we will probably start out with punches kicks and elbows in the air and with a kick shield, and then move on to techniques with attackers, and have the women pair up first, and then perhaps work with one of the instructors or assistants. After we've worked on some of the physical techniques we'll probably do some deterance and assertiveness stuff.
With respect, may I ask:
1. Why are you offering this class?
2. What are your qualifications to teach it?
This is my perspective, coming from a suburban mom, having experienced a couple of encounters that you might address, one that has taken a R.A.D. workshop and a newbie in the martial arts: I think that folks should stick to what they are good at (if you train in Goju karate, then you should teach Goju karate...not Judo)...or spend time and money getting qualifications and skill.
Have you considered 'outsourcing' to professionals?
1. Why are you offering this class?
I was asked to develop and offer this class by the YMCA that we are working with.
I also have an interest in the subject matter, enjoy teaching and want women to feel more empowered.
2. What are your qualifications to teach it?
I've researched the subject quite a bit; I've studied a martial art that spends a significant amount of time on self defense for the past 7 years; I have taught a martial arts based self defense course for the past year; and I've taken several women's self defense courses including the RAD course.
Our martial arts self defense course is not suited to a WSD course and so I am working on developing a new course.
Have you considered 'outsourcing' to professionals?
Professionals become "professional" by studying the material, developing a course (or using someone elses material) and then teaching it. One has to start somewhere.
Outsourcing requires having the wherewithal to pay someone else.
I think that folks should stick to what they are good at
Then no one would ever try anything new now would they.:eek:
Thank you for the reply. No disrespect intended, and glad to know you have a passion for the topic.
If you're still looking for someone to offer legal advice, you might want to consider getting in touch with an organization of women lawyers. Most law societies require some level of pro-bono work in the community, and you might be able to find someone who wouldn't mind coming to your class to discuss legal issues.
http://www.texaswomenlawyers.org/
Might be a good place to start.
Chunkstyle
08-20-2006, 21:28
I know Texas is a little less liberal than Minnesota and women carrying OC/CS spray is common in the Twin Cities area here and should be no trouble where you're at. I've attended several women's self-defense workshops here as moral support with my mother who was shot twice in a dangerous domestic encounter. The MPD instructors who put it on all say "Buy OC/CS spray and carry it in your hand whenever you're in a location you're not completely comfortable in." I have to agree. That spray is nasty and unless you're dealing with a really drugged up individual, it works really well. Freeze +P is what the LEOs here carry and the same with me when I'm on duty. Though my coworker Mark has had a lot of success with FOX.
Adding my two cents.
I did a self-defense course when I was younger aimed at women (was done through my school, all girls) so it's a little bit of critque on that.
Basically some things that I think you might have missed (even though you still might include them you just didn't list).
Learn about everyday weapons, probably come under using your surroundings. For example, belts, pens (seen the Bourne Identity)
Proper stances for balance and to appear agressive/non-aggressive
What to do during an attack. For example, if they try to change locations.
And any techniques make sure they work. One of the ones I was taught through this course I tried during sparring on the ground. Let's just say I didn't get far.
Proper stances for balance and to appear agressive/non-aggressive
Excellent point!
Very good point, I'll try and incorporate that.
I'm excited, our class is scheduled to start October 3rd. Now let's see if they Y has managed to get anyone to sign up. Several people have indicated interest, but as of last thursday, no one had committed.
Very good point, I'll try and incorporate that.
I'm excited, our class is scheduled to start October 3rd. Now let's see if they Y has managed to get anyone to sign up. Several people have indicated interest, but as of last thursday, no one had committed.
Good luck, Jessica! :)
Let us know how it goes.
My husband and I are working on developing a Women's self defense class . The audience will likely be suburban moms. I'm planning on including the following topics
Awareness (situational and your surroundings)
Statistics on violence (specifically sexual assault)
Using your surroundings (both for escape and defense)
verbal and non-verbal de-escalation
Body targets (groin, knee, neck, instep etc.)
Body weapons (knees, elbows, fists etc.)
physical techniques (simple but effective techniques)
laws about self defense in Texas
Post assault - things to do (and not do) if you've been assaulted (information comes from a SANE nurse)
Does anyone see anything else that should be included, things that they think should be taken out (and why), or have any comments?
There have been some good points already made here but thought I might throw in my 2 cents.
I would recommend eliminating the statistics. While these are definitely valuable they also have a tendency to create mild fear in some people. That is also something that is done to death by self-defense instructors everywhere.
I would recommend adding some aspects of mental / emotional conditioning. Teach them to develop the mind-set for doing what is necessary to deal with violent situations. this is the most neglected aspect of self-defense courses. The truth is, if people aren't mentally prepared to do what is necessary all of the physical skills, regardless of how good they are, will be useless.
In regards to targets, simplify them. Focus on a handful of targets that have the highest probability of slowing or stopping the assault. Example: while the instep works great in a training environment it tends to work less effectively under stress and when the assailant is moving in an attempt to overwhelm the intended victim.
The same is true with body weapons, again simplify. Focus on natural movements such as open hand strikes. I would recommend avoiding closed fist strikes because there is too much risk of breaking a hand. I know that RAD and other systems teach various punches in their programs but I am not a fan. Especially for the purpose of teaching solid self-defense in a short period of time. While an elbow can be an extremely effective tool I have seen many students have a hard time learning proper technique during short presentations.
Keep the techniques simple and avoid those standard traditional self-defense techniques. Example: attempting a wrist lock against a two hand choke. Teach the students that when someone puts their hands on them in an attacking fashion, especially around the throat they should strike first and strike fast. Some of those traditional-style techniques tend to focus on peeling off the limbs when they should instead focus on disrupting the assailant's computer.
In regards to the laws- I think it's essential to address this to some extent. As an instructor you can be held liable if a student uses their skills out of context. However, if you are not a lawyer don't let them think you are. Provide them with a copy of the state laws and tell them that if they have any questions or concerns to contact their own lawyer. Emphasize that the laws vary from state to state and even within the jurisdictions of each state. Although, if you help the students place self-defense in proper context they should leave your class knowing when and where their skills are appropriate and necessary.
As was mentioned, some type of padded assailant training is always recommended. This not only helps the students understand how adrenaline can effect their mind and their body it also helps them understand that they can successfully use it to their advantage.
As for the mention of weapons training, I would recommend offering that as a separate class, maybe as part 2 to your class. The reason is that people can only learn and retain so much material. If you give them too much in any period of time they will likely not retain the necessary components to survive a violent altercation.
Hope this helps,
Steve Zorn, ICPS
Jessica
IMO ...it seems like you may be trying to teach S/D from that same old program that Traditional Martial artists have been using for years.
SImply put, you can show a women how to use a palm heel strike to the nose of a male attacker. Then what....she will get the S&%t kicked out of her 90% of the time.
You might try looking up one of the Machodo's BJJ schools. That would be the way to go , they can actaully teach a smaller person to defeat a larger, stronger opponent on the ground . That's where a male wants to go most of the time...why not have a little something for him ...check them out .
Teaching women to go, toe to toe with a man is not the safest way to teach self defence.
James O'Neill
10-09-2006, 09:50
"Teaching women to go, toe to toe with a man is not the safest way to teach self defence."
Agreed. But then neither is encouraging them to get into a grappling match if avoidable. Or teaching them to hunt for a submission while down there.
BJJRon seems to have a major chip on his shoulder about anything that is not BJJ. Dogma is dogma, even if it is well intended :(
Jessica
IMO ...it seems like you may be trying to teach S/D from that same old program that Traditional Martial artists have been using for years.
Hmmmm. Somehow I have managed for quite sometime now without getting the stuffing kicked out of me. I believe there are quite a few other women here who might say the same.
Musubi Dojo
10-09-2006, 10:20
Self Defense should be about avoidance and escape, not defeating an opponent.
Going to the ground with an attacker twice your size after a single class of BJJ type training would be a nightmare.
Learning some escapes from the ground is a great idea though and should probably be a seperate class as well.
my 2 cents
c
As for the mention of weapons training, I would recommend offering that as a separate class, maybe as part 2 to your class. The reason is that people can only learn and retain so much material.
I reccomend that if they're interested in carrying weapons they get training in it, but I don't pretend to be qualified to instruct anyone in weapon's use.
I believe there are quite a few other women here who might say the same.
Agreed.
Self Defense should be about avoidance and escape, not defeating an opponent.
Again, I concure.
Incidentally, we had our first class, but because the director failed to market the class properly we only had one person show up. She seemed happy with the class though.
Musubi Dojo
10-09-2006, 11:34
Incidentally, we had our first class, but because the director failed to market the class properly we only had one person show up. She seemed happy with the class though.
One is a start. :)
Cheers
c
Uf, class got cancelled because not enough people showed. Hopefully the next one will have more people.
"Teaching women to go, toe to toe with a man is not the safest way to teach self defence."
Agreed. But then neither is encouraging them to get into a grappling match if avoidable. Or teaching them to hunt for a submission while down there.
BJJRon seems to have a major chip on his shoulder about anything that is not BJJ. Dogma is dogma, even if it is well intended :(
I don't really get that feeling from his post - maybe I missed something somewhere else? Looks to me like he is just making a suggestion.
I believe his intent was this: males who target women generally end up putting the woman on the ground. A woman needs to know how to avoid going to the gound, how to get up as quickly and safely as possible when she ends up on the ground, and how to do this if a large man is assaulting her. BJJ, judo, and a few other systems can teach all of these things.
Jeff Cook
James O'Neill
10-12-2006, 11:53
Without trying to stir the pot, I took this:
"...Simply put, you can show a women how to use a palm heel strike to the nose of a male attacker. Then what....she will get the S&%t kicked out of her 90% of the time. You might try looking up one of the Machodo's BJJ schools..."
As an indictment of teaching a women to strike, an endorsement for teaching her to "fight" (when the goal of self defense is far different) and another endorsement for having women learn BJJ as a primary method of self defense.
That's not to say some ground work is not essential for womes self defense - it is essential IMO. But it should be tailored for the situation and the goal is of escape should be paramount over 'winning a fight' or getting a submission.
But maybe the Machado's have a Self Defense class as opposed to just sport BJJ and that was what he meant (:confused:)
...Looking back on it, perhaps I read more into it then he intended to say :o
Uf, class got cancelled because not enough people showed. Hopefully the next one will have more people.
Sorry to hear it, Jessica. :( I know you put a lot of planning into it. I hope you get the marketing support next time!
As an indictment of teaching a women to strike, an endorsement for teaching her to "fight" (when the goal of self defense is far different) and another endorsement for having women learn BJJ as a primary method of self defense.
I read the post the same as you. My apologies [to Ron] if I misunderstood. Perhaps it was Ron's rather dry reference to "That same old program [that traditional MA's...."] that set the tone of the post.
Musubi Dojo
10-12-2006, 15:15
I read the post the same as you. My apologies [to Ron] if I misunderstood. Perhaps it was Ron's rather dry reference to "That same old program [that traditional MA's...."] that set the tone of the post.
I took it that way as well.
I think learning defense on the ground is REALLY important, but I also think that the ground would be the absolute last place woman would go on purpose. (Unless she'd trained in BJJ for years, then maybe she'd rip his arms off :) )
Her odds of fighting a man twice her size are crappy enough without having all his weight on her.
Did we misunderstand you wrong Ron?
Cheers
c
If I might clarify my position.......nothing beats an ongoing program.
The longer the program's duration ....the greater the retention!
Good Luck
"Sometimes the best of intentions seem to go astray "
RA Miller
10-12-2006, 20:05
I disagree with you a bit, Ron.
Ongoing programs are excellent for skill building, refinement and testing, but they instill habits that are critical in the class environment and detrimental in a self-defense situation; they also tend to become over-complicated and over-refined as skilled players build a chess game out of what needs to be handled at an amygdalic, explosive, reflex level.
Self defense is weird in that can be an extremely complex problem- the basic matrix I start with is level of surprise versus allowable damage. Something that simple gives twelve different kinds of fights with different possible goals and parameters. Throwing in weapons or numbers complicates it exponentially. Recognizing what you need to do to win (and what winning is in the circumstances) is a skill all its own. There are physical skills, legal parameters, conditioned psychological response, physiological responses and environmental concerns that affect every aspect of the attack....
And this very very complex thing requires simple and fast answers.
Martial arts do almost the opposite. They have a relatively simple problem: How do I get the ippon or the knockout or the submission? They then create systems that are very complex responses to these simple problems. In some cases, so complex that they fail when presentedwith a real attack because they are designed around the contest of skill.
There are huge advantages to ongoing, long term training, but at some point you are training for the art itself, not for violence anymore.
Rory
BTW- Jessica I sent you a PM. Did you recieve it?
I can't read Ron's mind, so I can only say how I perceive his words, and interject my own thoughts and opinions based upon my background/experience.
It is a fallacy to suggest that BJJ self-defense advocates always taking an attacker to the ground and going to the ground with him. BJJ self-defense training incorporates many throws from judo and some other basic, easily-retainable standup methods, including strikes. As with any martial arts program, it can be tailored for more than one use. Sport competition is one use. Self-defense is another use.
Another advantage to BJJ, judo, and other systems that train for self-defense is they also do some sparring against a resistant partner.
Rory, I think there is some truth in what you are saying, but I strongly feel that you are over-generalizing and over-analyzing. A program that teaches bad habits will instill those habits the longer you train in it. A program that teaches GOOD habits will instill those GOOD habits the longer you train in it.
No program is perfect. A program that safely teaches devastating techniques in addition to controlled sparring is a great mix. I also think it is very important to always remember that we are training humans with brains capable of making decisions even while under stress. We are not training attack-dogs.
Getting back to the BJJ thing, I am surprised that I keep hearing that BJJ is only for sport, that BJJ always endorses going to the ground with an opponent in a self-defense situation. That simply is not true, yet I hear it over and over. Perhaps there are a lot of bad schools out there; maybe my view is narrow because I have been fortunate to have only encountered very good BJJ instruction. I can't tell you how many times I have practiced techniques for taking someone to the ground while remaining standing, and techniques on how to break contact on the ground to regain my feet.
Also, even the very inexperienced BJJ folks who only work on the ground soon realize that they can very easily adapt what they know to reasonable escape-and-avoidance self defense strategy. Again, they are humans with a brain. They know they can throw an attacker to the ground with a hip throw and not be compelled to automatically and immediately go to the mount for ground-and-pound or submissions. Just like the "eye gouge" argument - you don't have to teach a BJJer how to gouge eyes or avoid the eye gouge, as they have been trained on positional strategy. That same positional strategy and common sense allows them to manage the combat space with little forethought in a self-defense situation.
At any rate, there are plenty of good self-defense programs out there that are not BJJ-based. I have a feeling, though, that some of you have an anti-BJJ chip on YOUR shoulders, and are discounting it out of hand as a method for teaching self-defense.
Jeff Cook
Getting back to the BJJ thing, I am surprised that I keep hearing that BJJ is only for sport, that BJJ always endorses going to the ground with an opponent in a self-defense situation. That simply is not true, yet I hear it over and over.
Welcome to my world. :rolleyes: (WTF TKD)
As to the "Anti-BJJ Chip." Nothing could be further from the truth as far as I [personally] am concerned. That is a bit of a heavy statement as I have NEVER slammed one style of learning over another. *Kiss/kiss*
What I took from Rory's post is in fact the one element of Women's Self Defense that has been drilled into me....the element of suprise. It is not about having honed techniques from a particular style. It is about refusing to be a victim and doing whatever is necessary to stop that. Much of Women's Self Defense is cognitive training. I see his point about practicing techniques over and over and over again. It takes the "NO!" mentality away.
On the other hand, however, these Self Defense seminars also serve to introduce people to more long term learning should they be interested.
Seminars should serve a variety of purposes. I think Jessica did the right thing by opening the subject up for further appraisal. Hats off to you, babe!!!
Probably just as heavy as the statement directed at Ron. ;) That was my point.
Rory's post was good, as always. The mental preparation, fighting/survival spirit, verbal skills, etc. of self-defense needs to be sustained in a long-term program too. The "no" mentality is only taken away when it is not sustained or reinforced in repetitive training. It is not lost because you are practicing other skills in addition to that skill, but only because you cease to practice that skill.
Jeff Cook
RA Miller
10-12-2006, 23:24
Sorry, Jeff. I hope it didn't come across as an anti-BJJ post.
Really, there were two points that I wanted to make:
1) Self-defense happens in a complex environment with social, psychological and physical elements that have the power to change every aspect from what winning is (dialing 911 on a cell phone while being kicked to rolling out of the back of a moving van after you have been stabbed and tied to recovering from having a pitcher of beer broken over your head) whereas martial arts tend to be very simplified in that you know who you will be facing and where and what is allowed and how to win never changes. The side note is that the tactical time available in self defense is often zero, instead of the bow in, measure up, circle and plan available in training.
2) is what I call stylistic in-breeding. I come up with a cool move. It works for a while and you come up with a cool counter. Then I come up with a way around your counter. Then you realize that my way around your counter leaves a window of vulnerability that you exploit with a cool move. So I come up with a cool counter. So you come up with a way around that counter. So I find a window... It doesn't take much of this until you have a really excellent physical and mental work-out that no longer has any bearing on self defense.
Case in point, we've both spent hours on "breaking a turtle". There are some really cool ways to do it and it's a lot of fun... but unless I am in uniform and have a duty to act and need to cuff this guy there is absolutely no threat in a guy "turtling up." All of those hours of training were based on breaking a defense that existed because of the training and for no other reason.
In my opinion (which may be over-analyzed and over-generalized ;)) humans are monkeys who can't leave simple, effective stuff alone and keep making it cooler and more complicated.
Rory
James O'Neill
10-13-2006, 06:59
Speaking for myself, no chip here. I consider BJJ a 'cousin' art to my MA of choice & have nothing but respect. And apparently others took a similar impression away from reading the post in question - so I don't think I was too far off base...
Regarding self defense, it is all well and good to say you are going to change up and 1) try to escape instead of go for the submission or 2) go for the "maimer" instead of the techniques you train for in class. But the brain doesn't work like that under stress. We tend to do what we are trained to do - if that is to 'maim & run' then this is what we will find ourselves doing when hit with the 'epinephrine' dump. If we train to mount & go for the submission it is going to be allot easier said than done to change one's approach in the middle of a situation.
Beyond that, I understand that the Gracie's tend to focus allot more on self defense than pure sport with regard to instruction - but that is not what I have observed or participated in with the 'generic' BJJ I have been exposed to as taught by others. For the most part what I have seen is purely sport oriented instruction - obviously my anecdotal experience makes for a generalization in that regard - but I think it is a mostly true generalization nonetheless.
Furthermore, what I have seen of Gracie JJ's stand up techniques & self defense techniques have not been markedly different than what I have seen of many other arts. Some of it is great & some of what I've seen - well not so much IMO. Additionally, regarding specific standup techniques, I do not think teaching a 90lb female a hip toss is any less risky than teaching her a palm strike. Both techniques can be very effective but both have their POV's (point of vulnerability) too.
So I'm not disrespecting BJJ, nor do I have a bias against it. I just don't think it is 'all that' with regard to teaching women's self defense - I think one could do just as well in learning self defense from many other styles. As I always have maintained, it will be the teacher and not the art that dictates competent self defense instruction. Be it male or female, BJJ or Kenpo :bow:
In ideal world the best self defense is in reconigntion of danger, descalation of tension and avoidance. If you have reached a point where you are exchanging blows then something has already gone wrong.
If it comes to physical self defense I think there are two trains of thought. One is I will "win" the encounter. And I think that BJJ complements that philosophy well. The other is I will "survive" the encounter which includes avenues or submission and escape as well as fighting.
James O'Neill
10-13-2006, 11:05
Avoidence or barring that, escaping IS winning in the real world.
Avoidence or barring that, escaping IS winning in the real world.
Yes, I would also call that winning and I think you understand what I meant but, to clarify what I meant by a "winning" philosophy is a continued upping the stakes until your opponent stops (i.e.)
if you threaten me, I will hurt you,
if you attempt to hurt me, I will disable you,
if you attempt to disable me, I will kill you,
if you attempt to kill me, I will kill you first.
Elizabeth .....we need more women like you ......
Really !
If more women could channel that warrior spirit ....we'd have less demand for S/D classes :)
Elizabeth .....we need more women like you ......
Really !
If more women could channel that warrior spirit ....we'd have less demand for S/D classes :)
Thank You! :)
BTW- Jessica I sent you a PM. Did you recieve it?
I did not. I've been on very spottily lately, work is keeping me rather busy :(
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