Objective way to determine rank/budo art

[Nthdegree]

Is there a 'process of elimination' in determining legit 10th dans?

from what I understand, there are NO 10th dans in the west which are also recognized in the East. is that right?

so let's say someone creates their own style and promotes themselves (or friends promote them in exchange for rank themselves). what would be the process of being recognized as a budo art? and if someone claims they are a budo art, how can someone verify if they are?

how does one verify rank and if something is budo? 'budo' suggests japanese, so does that mean they must be recognized by japan in order to claim budo status?

thanks, -Ed

[Gae-Bek]

It all depends on what you consider "legit". Does legit mean authorized by another individual? Or does it have to be an organization? There are plenty of shady individuals AND organizations out there who will grant rank to anyone with a pulse and a checking account.

But, anyone with substantial experience can recognize within a minute or so, whether or not you really know what you're doing. No certificate or belt can save you from that, no matter how "legit" they are. Of course, it's often the case that the self-proclaimed 10th Dan folks tend to shy-away from situations where their ineptitude might become apparent, such as training with those who can beat them.

[Gene Williams]

Legitimate tenth dan are awarded, in Japan, by the ZNBK or the shihan board of an organization. It is generally done posthumously, but occasionally while living. It is a truly high honor and fairly rare. It is a safe bet that people running around in America calling themselves "10th dan" are full of crap.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Legitimate tenth dan are awarded, in Japan, by the ZNBK or the shihan board of an organization. It is generally done posthumously, but occasionally while living. It is a truly high honor and fairly rare. It is a safe bet that people running around in America calling themselves "10th dan" are full of crap.

Gene that really depends on the organization. If you are talking Karate, Judo, Jiujitsu then you are probably right on. However, if you get into Budo Taijutsu or some other Japanese arts then you would be incorrect. ;)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

[Jeff Burger]

I dont put alot of value on rank, its to relative to the individual school or style.

More and more its alot of politics.

Jeff

[Musubi Dojo]

I dont put alot of value on rank, its to relative to the individual school or style.

More and more its alot of politics.

Jeff

Yup.

some extra words....

[Gene Williams]

Gene that really depends on the organization. If you are talking Karate, Judo, Jiujitsu then you are probably right on. However, if you get into Budo Taijutsu or some other Japanese arts then you would be incorrect. ;)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

I am ONLY talking about ryu that are recognized by the ZNBK. What others do I could care less.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I dont put alot of value on rank, its to relative to the individual school or style.

More and more its alot of politics.

Jeff

You are definately right on there Jeff! :D

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

[Brian R. VanCise]

Legitimate tenth dan are awarded, in Japan, by the ZNBK or the shihan board of an organization. It is generally done posthumously, but occasionally while living. It is a truly high honor and fairly rare. It is a safe bet that people running around in America calling themselves "10th dan" are full of crap.

Hey Gene glad to have you back. :D However your quote above said ZNBK or Shihan board of an organization. If all you meant were ZNBK recognized ryu then you cannot claim that anyone else walking around with a 10th Dan is full of crap. The reason for this is that the ZNBK is just one small area of martial arts and their are many, many, many organizations whether Japanese, Korean, Chinese, etc that do not fall under the ZNBK and some of them use Dan rankings.(rightly or wrongly) ;) If you were to say that anyone not pracitcing a ZNBK recognized martial art was full of crap if they had a 10th Dan then you definately could rightly have that opinion except that you have excluded probably 90 percent of the martial arts on the planet from your equation. I have no problem with exclusion if that is what you chose but you must understand that not everyone will share your opinion. (in the long haul it will always be a minority opinion) That is just my 02. for what it is worth! :up:

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

[Brian R. VanCise]

PS

I am not trying to start a battle of words with you just a nice discussion because I enjoy your posts! ;)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

[Brian R. VanCise]

Here are just two very prominent martial artists that were tenth Dans or equivalent in their respective arts.

Helio Gracie

Remy Presas

Is either one not legitimate by not being recognized by the ZBNK?
Most people would say no, because they fall outside of the ZBNK which is not the governing body for all martial arts inside or outside or Japan. Just another view point to add to the discussion.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

[Jeff Burger]

I went to a couple of Remy Presas seminars.
He was so good it was just silly.
Really nice guy too, his passing was a great loss to MAs.


Jeff

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Jeff,

Yes Remy was simply incredible. He was even more incredible when you got to work with him one on one and he could do anything that he wanted to. Truly a great loss to the martial arts community. :bow:

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

[Gene Williams]

Hey Gene glad to have you back. :D However your quote above said ZNBK or Shihan board of an organization. If all you meant were ZNBK recognized ryu then you cannot claim that anyone else walking around with a 10th Dan is full of crap. The reason for this is that the ZNBK is just one small area of martial arts and their are many, many, many organizations whether Japanese, Korean, Chinese, etc that do not fall under the ZNBK and some of them use Dan rankings.(rightly or wrongly) ;) If you were to say that anyone not pracitcing a ZNBK recognized martial art was full of crap if they had a 10th Dan then you definately could rightly have that opinion except that you have excluded probably 90 percent of the martial arts on the planet from your equation. I have no problem with exclusion if that is what you chose but you must understand that not everyone will share your opinion. (in the long haul it will always be a minority opinion) That is just my 02. for what it is worth! :up:

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

The "high dan" tradition is a Japanese/Okinawan one. There is a tight structure and specific guidelines, not to mention a long history and tradition of awarding them. That isn't to say that there isn't politics, nor that the ZNBK and shihan boards are perfect. But, it is to say that the title/rank doesn't really make any sense outside that structure. I guess, for Westerners, it is just a nice way to say, "Wow! He's good!"

The first time I ever heard a Westerner referred to as a 10th dan, I laughed. That was years ago when I was probably a shodan or something. Most karateka in the traditional ryu still laugh when we hear that. It is much like Westerners using the term "soke." It just doesn't make any sense, plus it is grandiose as Hell.

10th dan was never intended to reflect skill. It is an honorary award given to people like Kuniba, Hayashi, Otsuka and others who have spent a lifetime contributing to the martial arts. To associate it with simple skill (which should go without saying) is to cheapen it. So, rolling on the mat and choking people out really good and waving sticks really fast and doing some jujutsu type stuff with them really good doesn't make you a 10th dan. Like so much else in our Western ego centered, rank crazy society this has been bastardized, cheapened, and pretty well screwed up. I may take the skills of certain Western "masters" seriously (though most have been disappointing), but I do not take them seriously as 10th dan. Sort of like "Professors of the martial arts ...now THAT'S funny!

[Jeff Burger]

Yes Remy was simply incredible. He was even more incredible when you got to work with him one on one and he could do anything that he wanted to.


Im jealous

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Gene,

You get no argument from me that high Dan ranks and titles have been cheapened to the extreme. The only thing I think that you need to take into account some times is that the ZBKN and Japanese + Okinawan Karate ryu are a very small amount of the total martial arts in Japan as well as the rest of the world. Having said that I have met more of my fair share of over inflated, ego driven, rank chasing people and to be honest I just let them do their thing and stay away. :rolleyes: It is good though, that you are back to keep everyone honest and checking their egos at the door!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

[Tony Dismukes]

It is an honorary award given to people like Kuniba, Hayashi, Otsuka and others who have spent a lifetime contributing to the martial arts.

Hmm ... I imagine quite a few folks would say that exactly describes the ranks of Helio Gracie and Remy Presas.

[starkjudo]

10th dan was never intended to reflect skill. It is an honorary award given to people like Kuniba, Hayashi, Otsuka and others who have spent a lifetime contributing to the martial arts. To associate it with simple skill (which should go without saying) is to cheapen it. So, rolling on the mat and choking people out really good and waving sticks really fast and doing some jujutsu type stuff with them really good doesn't make you a 10th dan.

So, a lifetime of contribution to kicking and punching the air is more important than a lifetime of contribution rolling around on the mat or waving sticks really fast. Got it, I understand now :D

[Gene Williams]

Tony and Rob, You are deliberately not getting it. I know that you two guys are quite intelligent and know far more about martial arts than I do, but IT IS A JAPANESE TRADITION. The rank makes no sense outside that tradition except as some arbitrary adaptation completely detached from context, history, and philosophy. It is like calling somebody "Captain" who has never been in the military, or calling me a doctor because I took a splinter out of someone's hand. Referring to people in just any old martial art as "10th dan" is part of what is wrong with the concept of "rank" that all you guys fuss about.

As far as "kicking and punching air" is concerned, you are only revealing your ignorance of karate and the training associated with it. Come go a round with some of my dan, or brown belts if you prefer. Better than that, come to a class and let's see what kind of physical condition you are in.:wink2:

[Matthew Jones]

Gene,

Does John Bluming count as a legitimate Westerner who holds a 10th Dan?

[Gene Williams]

Gene,

Does John Bluming count as a legitimate Westerner who holds a 10th Dan?


Who awarded it to him? I know who John Bluming is/was.

[Jared Sutton]

<DRIFT>

...

As far as "kicking and punching air" is concerned, you are only revealing your ignorance of karate and the training associated with it. Come go a round with some of my dan, or brown belts if you prefer. Better than that, come to a class and let's see what kind of physical condition you are in.:wink2:


So, rolling on the mat and choking people out really good and waving sticks really fast and doing some jujutsu type stuff...

Hmmm...:confused: Difference, I think not.

</DRIFT>

J. Sutton

[Tony Dismukes]

IT IS A JAPANESE TRADITION. The rank makes no sense outside that tradition except as some arbitrary adaptation completely detached from context, history, and philosophy. It is like calling somebody "Captain" who has never been in the military, or calling me a doctor because I took a splinter out of someone's hand. Referring to people in just any old martial art as "10th dan" is part of what is wrong with the concept of "rank" that all you guys fuss about.

Okay. Of course by that logic, non-Japanese traditions shouldn't use kyu/dan rankings at all. After all, a 3rd kyu is just as much a part of the Japanese rank tradition as a 10th dan. This would be fine by me, as I don't care much about ranks one way or the other.

Of course, this particular Japanese tradition (the dan ranking system) was invented by Kano in 1883, with the actual black belt being added to signify dan rank in 1907. Helio Gracie began developing Gracie jiu-jitsu as an offshoot of Kano's judo around 1929. Funakoshi adopted Kano's rank system in the 1920's, promoting his first dan-grade students in 1924.

I don't know at what date the various Okinawan karate systems started using the dan ranking system. Maybe you can help with that, Gene. If they adopted the tradition around the same time as Funakoshi did, then the Okinawans have had this tradition for less than a decade earlier than the Brazilians had it.

In terms of the context/history/philosophy, I'm afraid I'm a bit ignorant on how Kano's intent for the dan ranking system differs that greatly from the use which the Gracies made of it. Could you point me to any writings of Kano's which would help clarify the difference for me? Thanks.

[Jared Sutton]

Rank is only any good nowadays in the school or organization it was issued. Only there is the true underlying meaning of "What the heck are we actually using the ranking structure for?" answered and there is/should be no question on who deserves what because a person should be held to the standard of whatever the heck they are using the structure as a means for. When I see articles in magazines and online complementing their profound thoughts by putting a quote from a high-degree "master" into it, I'm constantly left in wonder of what makes this man's opinion on wrist alignment hold any more weight than mine when the only "credentials" we have on him is "my sensei, Al K. Seltzer, 8th dan." Okay, I now know that this guy is an 8th degree blackbelt in what I would hope to be some kind of Japanese or Korean style and that his name sounds like an antacid. And? I'll give him the front of the line and take his tray to the trash simply because I'm a lowly beginner, but what does rank mean where he got it from and where would he be at my dojo? (which I'm still lacking in...:D )

J. Sutton

[Brian R. VanCise]

Rank is only any good nowadays in the school or organization it was issued. Only there is the true underlying meaning of "What the heck are we actually using the ranking structure for?" answered and there is/should be no question on who deserves what because a person should be held to the standard of whatever the heck they are using the structure as a means for. When I see articles in magazines and online complementing their profound thoughts by putting a quote from a high-degree "master" into it, I'm constantly left in wonder of what makes this man's opinion on wrist alignment hold any more weight than mine when the only "credentials" we have on him is "my sensei, Al K. Seltzer, 8th dan." Okay, I now know that this guy is an 8th degree blackbelt in what I would hope to be some kind of Japanese or Korean style and that his name sounds like an antacid. And? I'll give him the front of the line and take his tray to the trash simply because I'm a lowly beginner, but what does rank mean where he got it from and where would he be at my dojo? (which I'm still lacking in...:D )

J. Sutton

Nicely put Jared! Our views are very similar.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

[Gene Williams]

Okay. Of course by that logic, non-Japanese traditions shouldn't use kyu/dan rankings at all. After all, a 3rd kyu is just as much a part of the Japanese rank tradition as a 10th dan. This would be fine by me, as I don't care much about ranks one way or the other.

Of course, this particular Japanese tradition (the dan ranking system) was invented by Kano in 1883, with the actual black belt being added to signify dan rank in 1907. Helio Gracie began developing Gracie jiu-jitsu as an offshoot of Kano's judo around 1929. Funakoshi adopted Kano's rank system in the 1920's, promoting his first dan-grade students in 1924.

I don't know at what date the various Okinawan karate systems started using the dan ranking system. Maybe you can help with that, Gene. If they adopted the tradition around the same time as Funakoshi did, then the Okinawans have had this tradition for less than a decade earlier than the Brazilians had it.

In terms of the context/history/philosophy, I'm afraid I'm a bit ignorant on how Kano's intent for the dan ranking system differs that greatly from the use which the Gracies made of it. Could you point me to any writings of Kano's which would help clarify the difference for me? Thanks.

Tony, It doesn't matter what Helio Gracie did. Let's see...Kano, Funakoshi...those are JAPANESE names last time I checked. You don't really give a damn about this, you just want to argue. The Gracies have never pretended to be traditional. Royce Gracie is no tenth dan, by the Japanese criteria, by any stretch. 10th dan are 1.) very old, or, 2.) dead.

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't know at what date the various Okinawan karate systems started using the dan ranking system.

Well, since Gene hasn't filled in that info for us yet, I'm trying to do some research myself. According to this (LINK) (http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Products/Pages/books_gojuhistrev.html) Goju Ryu history (speaking about Miyagi Chojun) "...he opposed ranking systems in karate, as he believed it would lead to men being judged by their rank and not their character. The dan ranking system was only introduced in Okinawa in 1956 after Miyagi's death, and the first all-style dan grading in Okinawa did not take place until 1960." This passage leaves it unclear whether any other Okinawan karate systems adopted the dan ranking system earlier than Goju Ryu. If not, the Okinawans would have had this tradition for less time than the Brazilians, and with less of a connection to the inventor of the tradition.

With respect to Kano's intentions for the dan rank system, I haven't found too much, but I did come across this (LINK) (http://www.e-budokai.com/articles/belts.htm) article by Don Cunningham. Don states "While he left no documented reason for the various colors used, Dr. Kano did leave some clues. ...(various theories presented) ... On the other hand, Dr. Kano's dan ranking system may have represented a radical rejection of Japanese culture and a deliberate way of distinguishing his new and improved system from traditional jujutsu styles, according to Skoss."

I'm not qualified to judge the likelihood of the conjecture presented above. Any serious judo historians want to have a whack at it?

[Tony Dismukes]

Royce Gracie is no tenth dan, by the Japanese criteria, by any stretch. 10th dan are 1.) very old, or, 2.) dead.

Totally correct! Royce Gracie is not a 10th dan. Helio Gracie is a 10th dan, and at 93 years, I think he might qualify as old.


Kano, Funakoshi...those are JAPANESE names last time I checked.

Yep, but I'm not quite following your point. Are you saying that since the tradition was invented by a Japanese person, then the tradition can only apply to other Japanese persons? In that case, non-Japanese shouldn't receive any other dan ranking either. There's nothing about the 10th dan rank which is more traditional than a 5th dan or a 1st dan. Come to think of it, I guess westerners shouldn't receive kyu ranks either, since those were invented by a Japanese as well.

[Gene Williams]

Totally correct! Royce Gracie is not a 10th dan. Helio Gracie is a 10th dan, and at 93 years, I think he might qualify as old.



Yep, but I'm not quite following your point. Are you saying that since the tradition was invented by a Japanese person, then the tradition can only apply to other Japanese persons? In that case, non-Japanese shouldn't receive any other dan ranking either. There's nothing about the 10th dan rank which is more traditional than a 5th dan or a 1st dan. Come to think of it, I guess westerners shouldn't receive kyu ranks either, since those were invented by a Japanese as well.
(Helio, Royce...it doesn't matter.)
No, what I'm saying is that it should only apply to those within the Japanese/Okinawan TRADITIONS. There are plenty of non-Japanese who train in the various Japanese/Okinawan ryu who are perfectly legitimate within the ranking system.

Look at the title of this thread. Precisely the reason such questions have to be asked is because of the misuse and cheapening of titles and rank. Westerners are the primary culprits. You, and others like you, are good examples of the Western/American egalitarian philosophy of iconoclasm, levelling, and dislike of structure and ranking systems. There is a certain type of individuality that is represented by all that which is what has made America great in industry and technology. But, it is what has screwed up martial arts in this country. We need to end this ridiculous discussion. It isn't going anywhere.

[DragonMind]

If I recall my history correctly, Okinawa was a US Protectorate from 1945 to 1972 and only became part of Japan once again on May 15, 1972 (my father was there for the ceremony). Even today many Okinawans do not consider themselves Japanese.

[Gene Williams]

If I recall my history correctly, Okinawa was a US Protectorate from 1945 to 1972 and only became part of Japan once again on May 15, 1972 (my father was there for the ceremony). Even today many Okinawans do not consider themselves Japanese.

This is correct. But, karate has adopted the Japanese traditions, for better or worse.

[starkjudo]

Neil Ohlenkamp has a brief article on the Judo rank system here at judoinfo.com (http://www.judoinfo.com/obi.htm). An article by Draeger, here, (http://www.judoinfo.com/ranks.htm) goes into even more detail on how the whole idea of a ranking system comes from a commoner idea, not part of the feudal system of Japan.

The whole concept of a ranking structure is VERY western in concept. Kano originally started out with only two ranks, white and black. Brown was added later. The entire kyu-grade system comes out of an concept to make the arts more accessible to westerners. The idea of a dan-grade system, with different rankings, apparently doesn't appear until 1930, a good 40 years after Kano began to work out his art.

Gene, my snarky (I admit it) kicking and punching the air comments, weren't meant to belittle Karate, which I have respect for, but to argue against the point you appeared to be making. The Japanese respect mastery in many forms - to keep it martial, ne-waza, ground techniques, are as you know a critical part of Judo. So also with traditional Judo is defenses against weapons and strikes, although even most truly traditional Judo dojos limit this to a few katas, unless they also employ jujitsu-specific classes as well. The concept of mastery also expands in the Japanese mindest to the non-martial, with Calighrapy and tea service.

But one does NOT have to be Japanese to recognize and respect these rites, or even to achieve a high level of proficency (10th dan) in them. The whole idea that one has to be Japanese for that is more tied to institutionalized Japanese arrogance and racism, pardon me for saying it, than anything else. That is a large part of why it'll be at least a good 30 years, if that, before we will ever see the Kodokan recognize a Gaijin with 10th dan.

[Gene Williams]

Neil Ohlenkamp has a brief article on the Judo rank system here at judoinfo.com (http://www.judoinfo.com/obi.htm). An article by Draeger, here, (http://www.judoinfo.com/ranks.htm) goes into even more detail on how the whole idea of a ranking system comes from a commoner idea, not part of the feudal system of Japan.

The whole concept of a ranking structure is VERY western in concept. Kano originally started out with only two ranks, white and black. Brown was added later. The entire kyu-grade system comes out of an concept to make the arts more accessible to westerners. The idea of a dan-grade system, with different rankings, apparently doesn't appear until 1930, a good 40 years after Kano began to work out his art.

Gene, my snarky (I admit it) kicking and punching the air comments, weren't meant to belittle Karate, which I have respect for, but to argue against the point you appeared to be making. The Japanese respect mastery in many forms - to keep it martial, ne-waza, ground techniques, are as you know a critical part of Judo. So also with traditional Judo is defenses against weapons and strikes, although even most truly traditional Judo dojos limit this to a few katas, unless they also employ jujitsu-specific classes as well. The concept of mastery also expands in the Japanese mindest to the non-martial, with Calighrapy and tea service.

But one does NOT have to be Japanese to recognize and respect these rites, or even to achieve a high level of proficency (10th dan) in them. The whole idea that one has to be Japanese for that is more tied to institutionalized Japanese arrogance and racism, pardon me for saying it, than anything else. That is a large part of why it'll be at least a good 30 years, if that, before we will ever see the Kodokan recognize a Gaijin with 10th dan.

You are right. But, I am not arguing that one has to be Japanese, only that the rank only makes sense in the context of that tradition. There are plenty of Westerners in the tradition. Again, 10th dan is not given based upon proficiency. Most karate ryu don't promote past godan on proficiency alone. You have to give something back.

I think the bit about rank being to make the arts more accessible is, indeed, more applicable to judo than karate, since judo spread much faster and was organized into sport and tournaments on an international level a lot sooner.

Look, the rank system is far from perfect. I think we should just have maybe 2 or 3 belt levels. But, it used to be that rank actually meant something before the West got hold of it. Some of us in the traditional ryu still try to maintain those standards. It is an uphill struggle. But, I think the Japanese have the right idea about things like 10th dan. It should be very special and limited to only a few. Do I think there are Americans deserving of it...yes. That doesn't mean they'll ever see it from the Japanese, though. Many Japanese still do not take karate in America as seriously as they should. Never mind when they come over here now they are surprised at the level of ability and often get embarrassed in kumite and kata. A couple of Japanese I know have said that Japan has gotten lazy about their karate and America has caught up.

[Tony Dismukes]

what I'm saying is that it should only apply to those within the Japanese/Okinawan TRADITIONS

So let me get this straight:

In 1882, a young Japanese innovator (Kano) develops a new style of martial art. He also invents a new system of grading for this art, which is completely different from prior Japanese traditions.

In 1922, an Okinawan karate instructor (Funakoshi) brought his art to Japan. He made a number of changes to the system, creating a Japanese version of the art, for which certain practitioners of Okinawan karate still criticize him.

In 1924, Funakoshi adopts Kano's rank system, even though his karate has no historical link to Kano's judo.

In the 1910s, a student of Kano (Maeda), travelled to Brazil and taught judo to the Gracie family. Over the next couple of decades, the family developed a specialized off-shoot of judo. It's likely that this art is as close or closer to judo than judo was to it's parent arts. The Gracies changed the name of the art, but kept Kano's rank system.

Meanwhile, the traditional Okinawan karate instructors in Okinawa resisted adopting judo's rank system for a while, but eventually (by the 1950s) went with the flow and started using the dan rank system.

So .. from all this, we can deduce that the Gracies, who have a direct lineage relationship to the inventor of the dan grading system and have been using said system for almost a century are not entitled to use that system.

Conversely, the Okinawan karate traditions, which adopted the dan grading system decades after the Gracies had been using it, from an art which they had no lineage relationship to, are entitled to use said system.

I'm sure there's some sort of logic there, but I'm just not seeing it.



Precisely the reason such questions have to be asked is because of the misuse and cheapening of titles and rank.

Yes, clearly the Gracies are the ones who are cheapening rank. An average of 10 years of hard work to achieve shodan (for the minority of practitioners who ever reach that rank). I'm sure it takes much, much longer to reach 1st dan in any Japanese system.

I may be iconoclastic and egalitarian, but I'm also a big fan of history and backing up my arguments with verifiable evidence. Just weaknesses of mine, I guess.

Edit -

Again, 10th dan is not given based upon proficiency. Most karate ryu don't promote past godan on proficiency alone. You have to give something back.

The exact same is true in BJJ.

[Gene Williams]

So let me get this straight:

In 1882, a young Japanese innovator (Kano) develops a new style of martial art. He also invents a new system of grading for this art, which is completely different from prior Japanese traditions.

In 1922, an Okinawan karate instructor (Funakoshi) brought his art to Japan. He made a number of changes to the system, creating a Japanese version of the art, for which certain practitioners of Okinawan karate still criticize him.

In 1924, Funakoshi adopts Kano's rank system, even though his karate has no historical link to Kano's judo.

In the 1910s, a student of Kano (Maeda), travelled to Brazil and taught judo to the Gracie family. Over the next couple of decades, the family developed a specialized off-shoot of judo. It's likely that this art is as close or closer to judo than judo was to it's parent arts. The Gracies changed the name of the art, but kept Kano's rank system.

Meanwhile, the traditional Okinawan karate instructors in Okinawa resisted adopting judo's rank system for a while, but eventually (by the 1950s) went with the flow and started using the dan rank system.

So .. from all this, we can deduce that the Gracies, who have a direct lineage relationship to the inventor of the dan grading system and have been using said system for almost a century are not entitled to use that system.

Conversely, the Okinawan karate traditions, which adopted the dan grading system decades after the Gracies had been using it, from an art which they had no lineage relationship to, are entitled to use said system.

I'm sure there's some sort of logic there, but I'm just not seeing it.




Yes, clearly the Gracies are the ones who are cheapening rank. An average of 10 years of hard work to achieve shodan (for the minority of practitioners who ever reach that rank). I'm sure it takes much, much longer to reach 1st dan in any Japanese system.

I may be iconoclastic and egalitarian, but I'm also a big fan of history and backing up my arguments with verifiable evidence. Just weaknesses of mine, I guess.

Edit -


The exact same is true in BJJ.

Nobody is talking about the Gracies here. Sure, they are entitled to use the ranking system. Fine. But, 10th dan is not given by the organization YOU create. It isn't given by your students. In fact, as I have said, it isn't about proficiency at all, anyway.

Do the Japanese view BJJ as closer to judo than judo? I doubt it.

Whatever you may think about your history and verifiable evidence (as if this were some kind of mystery) the bottom line is this...that's the way the Japanese do it. If you don't accept that or don't like it...tough. I don't think they'll be changing it because you are such a nice, reasonable guy who just doesn't get it. So, those of us in karate and other Japanese/Okinawan arts will still smile and shake our heads when we hear about all these Westerners who are 10th dan. That's it.

[Tony Dismukes]

Nobody is talking about the Gracies here.

Really? I thought someone asked your opinion of Helio Gracies 10th dan and you seemed to indicate that he wasn't entitled to it.


But, 10th dan is not given by the organization YOU create. It isn't given by your students.

Hmm. Any judo historians want to explain where Jigaro Kano's rank came from? At least they waited until after he was dead to award him 12th dan.


Do the Japanese view BJJ as closer to judo than judo?

That's not what I said. I said BJJ is as close to judo as judo was to Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu (its parent arts). If any judo historians (Japanese or otherwise) want to confirm or deny this, I'll happily listen.


In fact, as I have said, it isn't about proficiency at all, anyway.

Once again, it's the same in BJJ.


that's the way the Japanese do it. If you don't accept that or don't like it...tough. I don't think they'll be changing it

Who's asking them to change anything? I'm simply pointing out that the Gracies' approach to rank isn't all that different from the Japanese way (except for being more consistently stringent in their requirements than most Japanese systems. :) ) As far as what the Japanese think, I haven't really seen or heard of any of them claiming Helio Gracie doesn't deserve his rank. Maybe some of them believe it, but I guess the individuals who hold such a belief can make that argument on its merits if they care to.

[Tony Dismukes]

Oh Gene, I almost forgot to thank you for saying that I am a "good example of the Western/American egalitarian philosophy." That was a really nice thing to say.

I don't know where you got the idea that I dislike structure, though. I'm a big fan of structure.

As far as my opinions on rank, it appears that they are pretty much the same as those of Miyagi Chojun. I guess he must have been another one of those egalitarian iconoclasts.

[Gene Williams]

Oh Gene, I almost forgot to thank you for saying that I am a "good example of the Western/American egalitarian philosophy." That was a really nice thing to say.

I don't know where you got the idea that I dislike structure, though. I'm a big fan of structure.

As far as my opinions on rank, it appears that they are pretty much the same as those of Miyagi Chojun. I guess he must have been another one of those egalitarian iconoclasts.

I have problems witht he rank system, too, but given the fact that I am in that tradition and in a Japanese kai, that is the way it is. Myagi aside, the Japanese have chosen to do it that way, and karate is their ball game.

Does someone like Helio Gracie deserve 10th dan, of course he does. So do Cecil Patterson of Wado and Richard Baillargeon of Shito ryu. But, from the Japanese view, it just doesn't work that way. The problem with that rank being given so much in the West is that it muddies the water and makes it meaningless.

[Brian R. VanCise]

For better or for worse many martial arts have gone the route of Kano's
belt/dan ranking system. The cat is out of the bag so to speak. One body in Japan does not control the idea of legitimacy in martial arts ranks. That is just a simple fact.

Now I do not dispute your opinion that anything that is not recognized by the ZBKN is not legit by you. However, that is just your opinion and one organizations opinion and they govern only a small amount of practitioners in the world.

I will take another example from the Filipino martial arts. Grandmaster Ernesto Presas of Kombaton is also a 10th Degree Blackbelt. (and quite deserving) When the Japanese arts of Karate and Judo came to the Phillipines they were embraced and many indigenous arts soon adopted Kano's belt ranking system. Are they not legit? They certainly do not fall under the auspices of the ZBKN!

What about the Korean martial arts that now use a belt/Dan Degree ranking system. They are legit and recognized in the East! (Korea)

The idea of Belt/Dan Degree only applying to Japanese martial arts is how shall we say ridiculous. To many arts from around the world have followed suit.

Now if you were to use the classical Koryu way of ranking then that probably is mostly found only still in Japanese arts but the Belt/Dan Degree has spread to wide now for it to exclusively apply to any one group. (wrongly or rightly)

As always it is a joy to chat with you!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

[DragonMind]

I guess I'm a little confused here. The Japanese developed the dan ranking system; though there is some debate if Kano invented it or adapted it. Kano is generally credited with bringing it into the MA world in judo; his new sport form of jujitsu. The purpose seems to have been to recognize a) comparative skill levels, and later b) contribution to the style/martial arts in general. This ranking system is later adopted by the other Japanese styles, Okinawans, Koreans, Brazilians and Americans (to name a few) for their martial arts styles; ostensibly for the same original purpose(s).

Now, Gene is saying that it is OK for the Japanese and Okinawans to use that rank system but not anybody else. However, by that logic no one except the judo folks should be allowed to use it since they were the original developers. Now, if one were to argue that as long as it was being used for its intended purpose then the other Japanese and Okinawan styles should be allowed to use it. But then what justifies drawing a line between them and say the Koreans who arguably based TKD on Shotokan - a Japanese/Okinawan tradition, or the Brazilians who were reaching behind judo back to its jujitsu roots?

This kind of circular logic sends up a stench of cultural bias as opposed to any defensible stance. Following that logic, perhaps we should outlaw using double entry accounting outside of Italy (invented by an Italian monk in the 14th century) or the use of calculus outside of India (the Kerala school defined differential calculus 300 years before Leibniz and Newton). Wow, that really would be absurd, but then so is this rank system xenophobia. :rolleyes:

[Rasputin]

Myagi aside, the Japanese have chosen to do it that way, and karate is their ball game.

Why?

Japan conquered Okinawa and stole some of Karate from the Okinawans, right? Is it their right by conquest to determine who gets ranked?

If so, I have two buddies called Fat Man and Little Boy who might have something to say on the subject.

Just couldn't help myself, sorry.

[Harlan]

How about some background on the evolution of the concept?

http://www.koryubooks.com/library/wbodiford1.html


Is there a 'process of elimination' in determining legit 10th dans?

from what I understand, there are NO 10th dans in the west which are also recognized in the East. is that right?

so let's say someone creates their own style and promotes themselves (or friends promote them in exchange for rank themselves). what would be the process of being recognized as a budo art? and if someone claims they are a budo art, how can someone verify if they are?

how does one verify rank and if something is budo? 'budo' suggests japanese, so does that mean they must be recognized by japan in order to claim budo status?

thanks, -Ed

[dtf]

I don't understand why people are having such a hard time with the way that Gene has presented his points. The ability to receive a ranking of 10th Dan falls under Okinawan/Japanese traditional martial arts. As an individual I can not give myself 10th dan no matter how good I may be or how much I may deserve to be recognized as a 10th dan.

People start their own so-called martial arts organizations and automatically call themselves, 10th dans, soke, professors, masters, grand masters, super-duper grand masters to sell their own "system" as the only "true" and "best" martial art.

Just because you say it, it don't make it so. There are just not that many real 10th dans out there.

David Frank

[Gene Williams]

Why?

Japan conquered Okinawa and stole some of Karate from the Okinawans, right? Is it their right by conquest to determine who gets ranked?

If so, I have two buddies called Fat Man and Little Boy who might have something to say on the subject.

Just couldn't help myself, sorry.


Well, you are certainly right about that. But, that is just the way it has worked out.

[Jeff Burger]

no one except the judo folks should be allowed to use it since they were the original developers


I was going to mention that.

[Harlan]

Not knowing anything about rank, then is it safe to say that anyone claiming 10th Dan or above, and who is not in Judo (would that be Kodokan recognized only Judo?)...is misrepresenting themself?

Or to put it another way, what long term and widely acknowledged and reputable organizations 'out there' recognize high grades (and is it art specific...Judo, Aikido, etc.)? Does it all go back to the Dai Nippon Butokukai?

Thank you.

[Tony Dismukes]

http://www.koryubooks.com/library/wbodiford1.html

Thanks for that link. Lots of good historical info there.

[DragonMind]

I don't understand why people are having such a hard time with the way that Gene has presented his points. The ability to receive a ranking of 10th Dan falls under Okinawan/Japanese traditional martial arts.
Therein lies the first point of contention; the assertion that only Japanese/Okinawan systems have the right to use the dan ranking system at all. All of the reasoning given points to a xenophobic elitism that does not hold up in the real world.


As an individual I can not give myself 10th dan no matter how good I may be or how much I may deserve to be recognized as a 10th dan.

People start their own so-called martial arts organizations and automatically call themselves, 10th dans, soke, professors, masters, grand masters, super-duper grand masters to sell their own "system" as the only "true" and "best" martial art.

Just because you say it, it don't make it so. There are just not that many real 10th dans out there.

David Frank
The issues here are two-fold: 1) phonies giving themselves inflated rank for ego reasons, and 2) a chicken-egg problem for new styles. I don't think anyone here disagrees that #1 is a problem and those folks should be run out of town. The #2 problem is if the founder can't grant themselves xth dan (whatever the highest may be), then who can? Do we want a committee of his/her students doing it? How about a council of peers? I can see pros and cons with every approach.

[Rasputin]

I think that the biggest problem that some traditionalists have with this is that they ask "who needs new styles? Humans have been fighting each other and studying the results for thousands of years; what could possibly be missing?"

By that logic, there is no need for anyone to use the Dan rankings other than those which are already in existence.

[wab25]

My simple mind can not understand Gene's viewpoint. One group of people have a direct link to Kano, and used his rank system from the out set. Another group rejected Kano's rank system, until 60 years ago, before they changed and decided to use it. It would seem then, that the first group, with direct lineage to the creator of the system, the same group that has been using it ever since, would have more authority, and more claim to that system of rank, than the other group that rejected it for 30 or so years, only to then adopt it later, the same group that also has no direct ties to Kano.

On another point, rank means nothing outside of your organization and school. Once you get outside the realm of your organization, it is your skill that matters. If Jim-Bob, is a 10th degree in in Ju-Bob-su Ryu, then you evaluate Jim Bob's skill, as the the pinnicle of skill in Ju-Bob-su Ryu. If that ain't what you want, skill wize, look somewhere else. If Jim Bob is 3rd kyu, then perhaps he has a way to go, and you shouldn't judge Ju-Bob-Su Ryu by his skill. In other words, the higher the claimed rank, the more you judge the art by the practioner's skill. If you don't want your art to be judged by Jim Bob's lack of skill, don't promote him.

[Tony Dismukes]

In other words, the higher the claimed rank, the more you judge the art by the practioner's skill. If you don't want your art to be judged by Jim Bob's lack of skill, don't promote him.

Interesting thought. Some might also add, if you don't want your art to be judged by Jim Bob's lack of character, then don't promote him. (This would apply more or less depending on the goals of the art in question.)

[wab25]

You can super soke yourself to your hearts content, but if you lack the skill, the only thing that gets wet, is the style you claim to represent, and the last one to know that you have been found out, is you...;)

[TonyU]

You can super soke yourself to your hearts content,
:laugh:
Good thing I wasn't drinking anything.

[Jeff Burger]

People start their own so-called martial arts organizations and automatically call themselves, 10th dans, soke, professors, masters, grand masters, super-duper grand masters to sell their own "system" as the only "true" and "best" martial art.



Some people named their own style because of politics.
When I first opened my school I was told I couldnt use various style names cause I wasnt paying into their associations.

I was told by different teachers I couldnt teach this or that because I wasnt part of them any more (Im talking techniques, forms...).

I never named my own style or promoted myself. It crossed my mind. People would ask me what am I going to call it. Im glad I put off calling it anything, but the pressure was there.

As far as restricting what I taught I told them the shove it. I paid for lessons and Ill teach what I want.

Once I was doing my own thing and they all saw they werent going to get a dime they were suddnely nice ot me again.

The first *** kissing was offers of rank.
I even had a CMA instructor offer to promote me to 3rd degree black belt if I made my school under him. Funny cause he didnt do ranks and my Nidan was in Karate.


Jeff

[Jeff C.]

Sorry for the question, but I am coming into this late.

Gene, what the hell is the "ZNBK?" I've heard of the DNBK - Dai Nippon Butokukai. What does "ZNBK" stand for?

Jeff Cook

[Gene Williams]

Sorry for the question, but I am coming into this late.

Gene, what the hell is the "ZNBK?" I've heard of the DNBK - Dai Nippon Butokukai. What does "ZNBK" stand for?

Jeff Cook

Zen Nippon Butokukai. This is actually more proper, I am told.

Most everyone is not getting it. Here is the short version. It is just the way the Japanese are. It doesn't matter that judo started the rank systen and karate only did it later, it doesn't matter that karate is originally Okinawan (though most, if not all HQ's are in Japan now.), it does not matter that we don't like it, understand it, or think it makes sense. It is just how it is. After all, we are talking about a country that ended the samurai era by decree...poof..."ok, guys, the samurai era is now over. Cut your topknots." When Tatsuno took over Seishin Kai, he fired all the shihan...just like that...and installed his own. Hardada did the same. That's just how they do it

[Jeff C.]

Thanks, Gene. Are they the same group, just different ways of saying it?

Jeff Cook

[Gene Williams]

It is the same body. Hamada has his own branch of ZNBK here called DAI Nippon Butokukai. I have never been clear of its relationship to Japan, however. I think it is tenuous, at best. Hamada is a character.

[Jeff C.]

Where do the myriad of other Japanese organizations fit into this argument, such as the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai? Is the DNBK the only "government-sanctioned" organization, and if so does that make it more "official?"

Jeff Cook

[Gene Williams]

Where do the myriad of other Japanese organizations fit into this argument, such as the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai? Is the DNBK the only "government-sanctioned" organization, and if so does that make it more "official?"

Jeff Cook

I don't know, Jeff. I was brought up in karate to believe that ZNBK was Moses, Joshua, and Jesus.:D

[P Goldsbury]

Hello Gene,

I had some time on my hands today and chanced upon this thread. I did a Google search (in English) for the Zen Nihon/Nippon Butokukai and came up with very little. A search in Japanese came up with 57,000 hits, but these were all for the Dai Nippon Butokukai. There was a very illuminating Wikpedia entry (but it is the Japanese Wikipedia), which gives a brief history of the organization until it was suppressed in 1946.

Aikido, which is the martial art I practise, received its name in 1942 because the Dai Nippon Butokukai decided that this was a good general name for an art like jujutsu, but which had to be a 'do', like judo and kendo (aiki was already an established term). Up to then, aikido was known as aikibudo, or Ueshiba ryu, after its founder, and the parent organization was the Kobukan (the dojo) or the Kobukai (the legal entity, recognized by the government). The military govenmnent required all martial arts organizations to join the Dai Nippon Butotukai, in order that they could contribute properly to the war effort, by teaching correct martial virtues. I think Ueshiba was not entirely happy about this situation, but he had little choice.

After the war, organizations such as the Zen-Nippon Kendo Renmei continued, but the old Kobukai became the Aikikai. Of course, the old association with the Dai Nippon Butotukai was completely severed. Other martial arts developped their own governing bodies, which explains the proliferation that Mr Cook mentions.

The present day Dai Nippon Butotukai is a different organization, based, I suspect, on nostalgia for what Japan 'lost' as a result of its defeat in WWII. On Google I was referred to a site, which cautioned readers to beware of another site which was run by a yakuza (gangster) group. Generally speaking, 'Dai' (= great) has a prewar ring, whereas 'zen' (= all) has a postwar ring, with no emphasis on Japan's 'greatness'.

The Aikikai has always had an iemoto-style system, with power vested in one family. The head of the art, Doshu, has no rank at all, since he is the sole source. Ueshiba liked to give out 10th dans to people he liked (there is even an honorary 10th dan given to one James Mitose, but this was given by Tohei, not Ueshiba), but this practice was stopped after he died and the only postwar 10th dans except Tohei's 10th dan have been given posthumously. Even the rank of 9th dan has not been given by the present Doshu.

If you do not have an iemoto system like the Aikikai, then you have a dilemma. You obviously have to promote from within the group, but if you do not have an unranked Head, like Doshu, you have to do it from below, by means of a shihankai. But this is another term for a group of senior teachers who gather together and decide to promote someone, usually so that they can then move up a rank. If the group has numbered ranks, then the problem is to decide which is going to be the highest number.

Of course, there are problems with either system. Probably Kano had a similar dilemma when he established the dan system. He wanted to break away from the proliferation of koryu schools teaching little of any use, and develop something of value for post-Meiji Japan. Ueshiba knew Kano and taught some of his students. He changed from a menkyo system to a dan system, but gave his senior disciples 8th dan to start with, since this was considered to be the equivalent of a menkyo-kaiden. But he never gave himself rank and this tradition has remained with his successors.

I see that this post has turned out longer than I expected. Apologies.

[Jeff Burger]

It is just the way the Japanese are. It doesn't matter that judo started the rank systen and karate only did it later, it doesn't matter that karate is originally Okinawan (though most, if not all HQ's are in Japan now.), it does not matter that we don't like it, understand it, or think it makes sense. It is just how it is. After all, we are talking about a country that ended the samurai era by decree...poof..."ok, guys, the samurai era is now over. Cut your topknots." When Tatsuno took over Seishin Kai, he fired all the shihan...just like that...and installed his own. Hardada did the same. That's just how they do it



I remember when I was a kid if I asked my mom a question she didnt have real answer to she would just say...
"Because I said so".

[Jeff C.]

Dr. Goldsbury, thank you very much for taking the time to write about this. Gene, thanks for your answers also.

Jeff B., the quote in your post above is somewhat accurate. To a degree, anyway. That is the way it is everywhere, not just in Japan. Who cares if the Japanese/Okinawans/folks like Gene disagree with how HKD/TKD/BJJ/you/me adopt/adapt Dr. Kano's rank system?

It is futile to attempt to force objective "standards" onto a totally subjective value system.

Jeff Cook

[Gene Williams]

Dr. Goldsbury, thank you very much for taking the time to write about this. Gene, thanks for your answers also.

Jeff B., the quote in your post above is somewhat accurate. To a degree, anyway. That is the way it is everywhere, not just in Japan. Who cares if the Japanese/Okinawans/folks like Gene disagree with how HKD/TKD/BJJ/you/me adopt/adapt Dr. Kano's rank system?

It is futile to attempt to force objective "standards" onto a totally subjective value system.

Jeff Cook

Thank you, Dr. Goldsbury. I had always used DNBK, but Kuniba once told us that Zen Nippon Butokukai would be more proper. He may have been expressing a personal opinion rather than indicating a current usage.

We still have the problem of the Shihan boards of karate ryu in Japan awarding 10th dan, posthumously as you again pointed out. It is still clear that they consider it a high honor, reserved for the very few. The abuse of it in other, non-Japanese venues, has badly muddied the water.

This can be argued all day. My personal bias is that the closer we remain to how the Japanese do it, the better. That does not mean that I don't think there are problems. Plus, being in a large Japanese organization and holding a position there, though a small one, means I follow their rules. I can live with that, and I believe they do it better than we do,

[Jeff Burger]

That is the way it is everywhere, not just in Japan. Who cares if the Japanese/Okinawans/folks like Gene disagree with how HKD/TKD/BJJ/you/me adopt/adapt Dr. Kano's rank system?

It is futile to attempt to force objective "standards" onto a totally subjective value system.






Which brings me back to my first post on the thread.


I dont put alot of value on rank, its to relative to the individual school or style.

More and more its alot of politics.

[Gene Williams]

Which brings me back to my first post on the thread.

We are all very aware of the problems with the rank systems. Having a board at Seishin Kai HQ in Japan where all dan diplomas come from AFTER Harada and the kaicho observe testing or approve the promotion is our way of handling it. Kancho do not award dan ranks. I am shibucho/6th dan and I can't award them without special permission from the Kaicho, and he has to ask Harada (soke). Even this doesn't eliminate all the mistakes, but it does tighten things up a good bit. Rank should mean something, but I cannot argue with you guys that there are few standards outside the various organizations.

[P Goldsbury]

Hello Gene,

Thank you for your comments. I give a few more of mine.


Thank you, Dr. Goldsbury. I had always used DNBK, but Kuniba once told us that Zen Nippon Butokukai would be more proper. He may have been expressing a personal opinion rather than indicating a current usage.
Perhaps Kuniba Sensei was thinking of the prewar/postwar divide, as I intimated in my earlier post. In aikido, Morihei Ueshiba's son Kisshomaru jettisoned all the prewar Omoto/Shinto trappings in which his father conceptualized the art and this included all links with the prewar DNBK. Of course, some believe that in doing so, he threw a whole brood of babies out with the bathwater. I myself am not so sure. I have read Ueshiba's writings in Japanese and there is so much with which postwar 'westerners' simply cannot associate. Period.

But if you read aikido bulletn boards, you will find endless discussions about finding the one point, focussing on one's center, directing KI, and a whole literature about aikido being a force for peace in the modern world. I myself have no problem with aikido being a force for peace in the modern world, but I think this should be based on real fighting situations and not on woolly ideas about love and harmony. I know that the founder talked about aiki (martial) as aiki (love), but I think this was really a trick, based on the fact that different kanji were read in the same way.


We still have the problem of the Shihan boards of karate ryu in Japan awarding 10th dan, posthumously as you again pointed out. It is still clear that they consider it a high honor, reserved for the very few. The abuse of it in other, non-Japanese venues, has badly muddied the water.
I know little about the organization of karate. The only karate shihan I know is Hiroshi Kanazawa Sensei. I know him because of his connection with Takushoku University.

When I was a young white belt aikido student, aeons ago, Kanazawa Sensei came to our dojo in London and gave an awesome class on how to kick. (Note, for those who need some background infornation: the martial arts clubs at Takushoku University form a martial arts sub-culture and all the arts clubs form part of this culture. Thus two of my own aikido teachers were students at Takushoku-dai and thus had a very important relationship with Kanazawa Sensei, even though they were from different martial arts. Thus, my aikido teacher (Takushoku-dai) could ask Kanazawa Sensei to come to his dojo to teach kicking to us beginners because he was at Takudai, and Kanazawa Sensei would have had a sempai/kohai obligation to accept the request.

Now, I believe that Kanazawa Sensei has the rank of 10th dan. As a non-karateka, who has seen him in action, I would say he deserved it, but this is a highly subjective judgment. I have really no clue whether he is really a 10th dan in karate. However, I believe that he separated from the Japanese organization and so I suspect that the 10th dan was given from within his organization.


This can be argued all day. My personal bias is that the closer we remain to how the Japanese do it, the better. That does not mean that I don't think there are problems. Plus, being in a large Japanese organization and holding a position there, though a small one, means I follow their rules. I can live with that, and I believe they do it better than we do.

I agree with you if we are talking about the Japanese dan system, but we then need to be aware that the Japanese system is FULL of politics and this is a major labyrinth for non-Japanese. You state that you hold a position in a large Japanese organization. I also hold a major position in a large organization. This organization is really international, but which is thought by the Japanese to be part of Japanese aikido, which is full of politics, as I suggested. So I do not mind being close to how the Japanese do it, but we non-Japanese also need to be in a postion to tell the Japanese clearly (and very bluntly sometimes) how their dan system sucks.

Best wishes,

[Gene Williams]

Hello Gene,

Thank you for your comments. I give a few more of mine.


Perhaps Kuniba Sensei was thinking of the prewar/postwar divide, as I intimated in my earlier post. In aikido, Morihei Ueshiba's son Kisshomaru jettisoned all the prewar Omoto/Shinto trappings in which his father conceptualized the art and this included all links with the prewar DNBK. Of course, some believe that in doing so, he threw a whole brood of babies out with the bathwater. I myself am not so sure. I have read Ueshiba's writings in Japanese and there is so much with which postwar 'westerners' simply cannot associate. Period.

But if you read aikido bulletn boards, you will find endless discussions about finding the one point, focussing on one's center, directing KI, and a whole literature about aikido being a force for peace in the modern world. I myself have no problem with aikido being a force for peace in the modern world, but I think this should be based on real fighting situations and not on woolly ideas about love and harmony. I know that the founder talked about aiki (martial) as aiki (love), but I think this was really a trick, based on the fact that different kanji were read in the same way.


I know little about the organization of karate. The only karate shihan I know is Hiroshi Kanazawa Sensei. I know him because of his connection with Takushoku University.

When I was a young white belt aikido student, aeons ago, Kanazawa Sensei came to our dojo in London and gave an awesome class on how to kick. (Note, for those who need some background infornation: the martial arts clubs at Takushoku University form a martial arts sub-culture and all the arts clubs form part of this culture. Thus two of my own aikido teachers were students at Takushoku-dai and thus had a very important relationship with Kanazawa Sensei, even though they were from different martial arts. Thus, my aikido teacher (Takushoku-dai) could ask Kanazawa Sensei to come to his dojo to teach kicking to us beginners because he was at Takudai, and Kanazawa Sensei would have had a sempai/kohai obligation to accept the request.

Now, I believe that Kanazawa Sensei has the rank of 10th dan. As a non-karateka, who has seen him in action, I would say he deserved it, but this is a highly subjective judgment. I have really no clue whether he is really a 10th dan in karate. However, I believe that he separated from the Japanese organization and so I suspect that the 10th dan was given from within his organization.



I agree with you if we are talking about the Japanese dan system, but we then need to be aware that the Japanese system is FULL of politics and this is a major labyrinth for non-Japanese. You state that you hold a position in a large Japanese organization. I also hold a major position in a large organization. This organization is really international, but which is thought by the Japanese to be part of Japanese aikido, which is full of politics, as I suggested. So I do not mind being close to how the Japanese do it, but we non-Japanese also need to be in a postion to tell the Japanese clearly (and very bluntly sometimes) how their dan system sucks.

Best wishes,

I think we can agree on that. I haven't quite developed the martial insouciance to tell Harada his grading system sucks, however.:wink2:

[Nthdegree]

I appreciate and am surprized by the response of this thread...thank-you.

personally, I don't recognize rank, nor claim any...hence the NthDegree parody - but I follow/respect whatever relative rank system which I interact with. eg, I wear whatever color they ask me to wear. but the thread isn't for me to come to terms with how I personally feel, I'm already comfortable with wearing whatever dress code other people feel comfortable with.

The reason for re-visiting this overdone subject (which, I think Miyagi's quote hit it dead on), is because I was thinking: if someone claims 10th dan in order to raise themselves up in stature thereby increacing marketability of their business, there is absolutely nothing in a legal sense that can be done about it.


Character

this, I beleive is a serious flaw in the MA commercial world and does nothing to protect students of fraud.

* there are laws against someone parading as a doctor yet who doesn't hold a degree from a accedited school.

* there are laws that protect from 'associations' from handing out 'diplomas' while claiming accreditation which they don't have or falsely state.


The fact MA has no national/international accreditation, I see as a geometrically progressing problem. the worst case of which hopefully won't take the form of newspaper stories telling of charlitons and mentally/sexually ill org leaders who mis-use their position of perceived rank in order to abuse in one way or another, their students. but how do you make requirements of character?


Proficiency

Another hurdle is how do you set accreditation 'standards' or at least guidelines? the accedemic model is the only one we have to go by really. Think of the difficulty and rarety it is to become the dean of a university ..or even a professor for that matter. If deans and professors were able to name themselves like Soke's Hanshis and Masters we have now, the higher education system would be a joke. that is the current state of martial arts as far as commercialy available systems...a joke.

upon hearing a criticsm like this, people try to explain how 'their' system has high standards and whatnot...and that very well could be relatively true...but are those standards in relation to other standards? or definitive and agreed upon set?

but, another problem still: do even HAVING standards degrade the Art? Painting Artists who suck can still graduate and get a degree...but even then, they are required to understand and demonstrate at least basic concepts. does that provide for a status quo as oppossed to creative development? well, with anything, there are some better than most and few better than some...but what happens when the few place themselves into a position of creating the standard as oppossed to them earning the right to judge that standard?

so, it would seem:
character + profiency = title.

the problem being character and proficiency are subjective and relative.

10th dans are getting younger and more abundant ever year. as high rank becomes more and more common, so does the relative value of such title. we can only hope that in time, rank will be meaningless to all and there will be two ranks: those who train and those who don't train.

just thoughts, I'm not expecting to have anything solved here and now.

[Brandon Fisher]

Here is a great way to tell who is blowin smoke and whos not.
1. Look at their history. If they are 60 years old or less and they are claiming 10th dan be leary. Simple fact is it is extremely rare of that happening legitimately.
2. Talk to them see what they know. Do they blow off or are they helpful. Are they evasive on answering basic questions then you can draw your own conclusion
3. train with them. This will tell all in my mind.