View Full Version : Kuk sool won
Okay, i am hoping to put all of you guys great knowladge to work here. I am looking into a school of Kuk sool won. I have been debating leaving my current school of TKD soon, for various reasons. This art seems to have it all, and everything that I am interested in.
I am wondering if there is anyone out there that knows much about the art that can tell me whether this system is all it claims to be. Or, if anyone has any experience with it and can tell me about it from their POV it would be great!
To check out the website of the school, and see what they profess to teach go here: http://kuksool.home.texas.net/our_martial_art.html
Thanks for your help guys.
I have been in Kuk Sool for about 3 years now (in Houston by the way). In my honest opinion it is all it claims to be. I also came from another school when I ran across Kuk Sool. Like any other martial art school though it all depends on the teacher. I would suggest going up there and watching a class or two to see what you think. Kuk Sool is basically Hapkido (joint locks), Kung Fu, Karate (hand strikes & some kicks) and Judo (falling and throwing techniques). It will be somewhat of a change for you coming from TKD because KSW is a fluid martial art not hard and rigid like TKD. Hey if you have any questions just ask.
The Opal Dragon
04-15-2002, 21:27
I have a question for BSC.
I have been doing Aikido for almost 2 years now and love it but can't make it to classes too often. I am interested in trying Kuk Sool Won (in addition to Aikido)someday in the future. The school is much nearer to my house than my Aikido dojo and I know that they have classes on days that I don't have Aikido. I plan to go visit the Kuk Sool Won place to see what it's like. From what I've already heard and read about it, some of the things that are done in Kuk Sool Won sound a lot like Aikido and you said yourself "it's basically like Hapkido". Aikido and Hapkido are very similar. I do prefer the more fluid martial arts. My main question to you is whether you think doing Kuk Sool Won would be beneficial to my Aikido? In other words, will it maybe help me do some things better or would it just confuse me with the kicks and punches? Even if I thought it might confuse me with Aikido, and if I checked out the Kuk class and thought it looked fun, I'd probably try to do it someday anyway. ;) I'm be interested in your opinion or anyone else's. Thank you! :bow:
Robyn :)
Well both Hapkido and Kuk Sool are more aggressive than Aikido from what I have seen. I wouldn't practice Kuk Sool for the purpose of improving your Aikido skills, I just don't see any benefit in that. And in all honesty yes I do think it would be confusing to practice both. It would for me anyway only because there are so many techniques to remember. I'm sure some people can do it with no problem but I'm just not one of them.
The Opal Dragon
04-16-2002, 11:29
Thank you BSC! :) You told me what I wanted to know. I'm already confused in Aikido because of all the hundreds of different techniques there are. I still might try Kuk Sool Won someday but more for the "fun" part now. Thank you very much!
Robyn :wave:
Brandon--
Thanks for replying. Heck, you might even know the instructor for the school I am interested in. The instructor that serves over him, not sure what that is called, has a school in Houston, I think the Woodlands. His name is Barry Harmon. The owner and instructor of the school here in Austin is Dewaine Perry.
Anyway...I was wondering how much of Kuk Sool Won is throwing, joint locks, and grappling? I have always been very interested in Aikido, but right now I want to be involved with something that involves kicking and punching as well as throwing, joint locks, and grappling. I need the grappling because I am primarily a striker and I wouldn't last a second on the ground against a stronger foe.
Also, how long do you have to study before they begin teaching weapons? Internal healing arts? Pressure point striking? Do they really teach theese things or are they just draws to get you in the door?
Thanks alot.
Kristopher
"Thanks for replying. Heck, you might even know the instructor for the school I am interested in. The instructor that serves over him, not sure what that is called, has a school in Houston, I think the Woodlands. His name is Barry Harmon. The owner and instructor of the school here in Austin is Dewaine Perry."
The school I started at was the head quarters in Houston, Kuk Sa Nim's (Kuk Sools founder) school. Barry Harmon and his wife own a school in Clear lake but from what I understand he has now taken over the head quarters in Houston on 1960 (my old school), because Kuk Sa Nim bought some land near Conroe (I think) where he will only teach instructors for now on. I don't know Dewaine Perry but then I am not a important person in the Kuk Sool organization. However I think I have seen him at the masters demo the last couple of years. I'm sure he is more than qualified if that's what your wanting to know.
"Anyway...I was wondering how much of Kuk Sool Won is throwing, joint locks, and grappling? I have always been very interested in Aikido, but right now I want to be involved with something that involves kicking and punching as well as throwing, joint locks, and grappling. I need the grappling because I am primarily a striker and I wouldn't last a second on the ground against a stronger foe."
Honestly Kuk Sool sounds like a very good match for you. It has lots of joint locks and throws as well as hand strikes and kicks. As for the grappling, you don't get into that until mid brown belt I believe but yes it's in there. I started Kuk Sool for the same reasons as you by the way.
"Also, how long do you have to study before they begin teaching weapons? Internal healing arts? Pressure point striking? Do they really teach these things or are they just draws to get you in the door?"
As far as weapons go that all depends on the instructor. Pressure point striking starts fairly early around your 3rd belt I think. As for internal healing, well that all depends on what your talking about. Depending on your instructor you might start meditation your 3rd class or it might be 2 years down the road. That's kinda hard to say but if he's not teaching it and you want to learn don't hesitate to ask about it. As far as the other internal healing arts they come after black belt.
Thank you BSC!! You have been a lot of help! I may have a few other questions after I view a class or two. I'll get back to you.
With respect,
The Opal Dragon
05-11-2002, 18:13
I'm back again!
I finally got a chance to visit the Kuk Sool Won place. I must say that I was very impressed with what I saw! It seems to me like a pretty complete art! Seems to have the best of everything from many offensive and defensive types of arts. After hearing that Kuk Sool Won would be very confusing for me and that it's very different from Aikido, I was very surprised that many of the joint lock/techniques/grappling that I saw were almost EXACTLY the same things we do in Aikido!!!! Must be that Hapkido part. ;) I particularly liked the techniques that ended in the chokes. I have a mentally ill older brother who sometimes goes berserk and I've had to use choke/pins before to keep him under control and the idea of learning more ways/moves on how to get into the choke (besides the few ways I already know), is very appealing!
The instructor was very nice too and he talked with me and my friend quite a bit. He said that it would be less confusing for me to learn Kuk Sool Won (because of the Aikido-like parts) than my friend who has done Tang Soo Do for several years! :eek: I saw many other things during the class that is very different from Aikido and I know that I would have a hard time learning because it's so different from what I've ever done before.
On the whole, it looks very interesting and someday I'd love to join. I don't want to be limited to just one art. I want to be able to have more options on how to defend myself. :)
Robyn :)
kodanjaclay
05-11-2002, 19:42
Robyn,
Things may not always be as they appear. IE try it first, before you sign anything. Talk with students and see what they think of the school and what not. If all seems well...then I wish you the best of luck :)
The Opal Dragon
05-11-2002, 20:09
Yes, yes, I know what you mean. Of course I would go watch many more classes before actually joining! :rolleyes: I don't even think I'll be able to actually join the Kuk Sool Won class for about a year (I plan ahead) anyway. I just wanted to say that from what I saw so far, I think it is really a good art and I still hope to do it someday. ;) I very much appreciate your concern for my well being, though! Thank you! :D
Robyn :bow:
I'm glad you liked what you saw. I am surprised to hear Aikido and Kuk Sool are so similar. I still think it would be confusing for me. There are so many techniques and forms to remember I can't even imagine trying to learn another art on top of Kuk Sool but I guess it all depends on the person. Good luck and please let us know when/if you join the class.
The Opal Dragon
05-14-2002, 10:23
Hapkido is probably more similar to Kuk Sool Won than Aikido but Hapkido and Aikido practice the same techniques with maybe only one or two variations at the end. I might get confused if I am able to join Kuk Sool Won someday. I only know some of the joint lock (Aikidoish) techniques while everything else would be completely new to me. I hope to have a chance to watch more classes soon. :) I really wish I didn't have to wait so long to join but I need to earn money for a car first before Kuk Sool Won classes. :cry:
Robyn :cool:
BSC you said "It will be somewhat of a change for you coming from TKD because KSW is a fluid martial art not hard and rigid like TKD."
I know this is changing the subject of the thread some what but I would like you to clarify this remark. Some one who does not have any TKD training could take this wrong. Guess I am just touchy about this, not arguing, I would just like clarification.
I study TKD chang moo kwan. Chang moo kwan means circling fists. Yes some of our moves tend to look rigid but only to the untrained eye. I have been studying TKD since 1987 (not long in the grand scheme of things) and I too thought at one time that it was rigid. Then I took the extra time to study the gisul in depth. I was surprised at what I saw. I also found that ju jitsu ties right into it and works well with it.
Again, I know this is off topic, I was just curious about how you came to make the comment about TKD being rigid.
Thanks in advance.
kodanjaclay
05-26-2002, 13:55
Wil,
I think that Taekwondo is very rigid when compared to certain styles.. ShimKiDo, Taijiquan, Certain styles of Kung Fu. Taekwondo is an external style. There is nothing wrong with that. It just takes a different route. I would not be overly concerned with it.
Master Clay,
I wasn't offended or getting defensive or anything, just wanted to know if he was educated. Alot of people say that TKD is very rigid and linear. Well, compared to the styles you listed I would have to agree. But it isn't all straight lines and angles. As posted in other posts the sine wave, and the twisting motion at the end of the gisul goes against the linear theory. Also, we teach circling fist techniques at blue/red/black belt levels.
Again I wasn't arguing, just being inquisistive. Thanks for responding. I always look forward to your insite.
Ever heard of framing a gisul? You may call it something different.
kodanjaclay
05-26-2002, 21:56
No problem Wlerp. With this medium, it can be very difficult to discern intent. I can't say that I haveheard that particular term. Perhaps if you could describe it to me, I can better anwer what we would call it.
Thanks, Wil.
"Again, I know this is off topic, I was just curious about how you came to make the comment about TKD being rigid."
I can understand how my comment would get under your skin if it's false information. I honestly didn't mean to talk down on TKD if that's the impression I gave. I have never studied TKD so I guess I was going off of what I had seen in classes and what not. I did study karate in Houston (Houston Budokan great school) and did notice that SOME of the forms were similar to TKD. I guess that's what I was going off of. You said yourself that at one time you thought TKD was rigid. Even if I was right about TKD being a hard martial art that's not a bad thing at all in my opinion. I hope I answered your question and again sorry if I posted any false information.
Brandon C.
Thanks Brandon,
You didn't get under my skin. I was just curious. Again, I too thought that TKD was rigid at one time. It is considered a hard style and I teach my students that others will percieve it that way. But then I tell them to examine each move in detail as they go along in their training. Each student eventually comes to me and says that everything including the punches and blocks all make a circular motion.
Didn't mean to take the thread off topic. Great post. I learned alot myself talking to others about Kuk sul won and following some of the links. Seems I have some studying to do on it too.
Master Clay,
When doing a knife hand guarding block for example you would first chamber your hands. Bondae or rear hand extended palm forward to you opponent and the front hand up at the ear with the arms crossed. Then the gisul snaps out into the knife hand guarding block. Front hand out in a knife hand (sudo) and the bondae hand guarding at the xiphoid process palm up also in sudo. When chambering the technique with the bondae hand out, this is actually the block; the bondae or rear hand out blocks the strike, when the hands snap out into the sudo marki (knife hand block) this is a strike to the appropriate area on the opponents body. Two parts to every gisul.
Do you teach the gisul this way to advanced students? I never actually got introduced to this until hitting 2nd dan. Lately though I have seen it taught to gup ranks.
Thanks
kodanjaclay
05-27-2002, 20:59
Wil,
If I am understanding you correctly, we do the same types of drills. Our old Kwanjangnim called this type of technique Um-Yang Soo as it leads into using long and short strikes. I always liked his name for it. This type of technique was trained in us at the yugupja levels. Mostly beginning about 5th gup, though I must admit, most people really don't seem to understand its significance until they mature more.
Thank you Master Clay,
OK new word for the day, "Um-Yang S00". Thanks again.
Last year I visited the Houston Kuk Sool Won school in Meyerland -- looking for a good place to cross-train. The teacher is only 3rd dan, but it was an excellent school. Several folks have already talked about how well-rounded the system is, so I will talk other points.
I teach an old, combat-effective form of Taijiquan, and have some background in Taekwondo and the Bujinkan. Because of the TKD experience, having seen some pretty terrible black belts, I went to KSW expecting the worst. What I saw was among the best.
I judge a teacher, and his school, by his students. I watched a black belt class do empty hand and sword forms. The students were attentive and exacting; the teacher, a fairly young man, was patient and instructive in an expert way. In another incarnation -- before I discovered my current master teacher -- I would have happily signed on.
The teacher noticed me watching, and could tell I had experience of my own. Now, an older 7th dan TKD teacher just down the street was so intimidated by my mere presence that he would not let me in the door (understandably; his students look like sh*t). This KSW teacher, however, young though he was, was sincere, humble, and unconcerned. We had a long, pleasant conversation about his art. I learned a few things just from talking to him.
He was a good representative of his art, and the art is worth learning. I was impressed. Even though I have a top-notch teacher, I felt like I was missing out by not training there.
KSN Doug
09-09-2002, 08:29
Laotse,
Fortunately, you found a very good instructor to watch and talk to. I can tell from your description that you were talking to PSBN Mike Nebgin. His wife is there as well, PSBN Kaori. I trained in Clear Lake under Master Harmon when PSBN (KSN at the time)was still an instructor there. Master Harmon is an amazing martial artist, and an amazing instructor. PSBN Mike learned from one of the best. He has some great skills as well. He can seem to float in air when he does his aireal moves.
However, KSW is not immune from lesser proficient instructors. I've now trained under two of the top masters in KSW, master Harmon and Master Sims, and in two different areas of the U.S. I have also visited a number of others while nearby on vacation and on business. Most are very good. However, try as Kuk Sa Nim does to keep everything consistant, there are a few out there that don't hold there standards up as high as they should.
If you ever have the need to change, you won't go wrong with the Meyerland dojang.
worndowndahnbonym
09-19-2002, 05:46
Hi, I'm new, but I saw this thread, and had to ask some questions...
I did KSW for several years (1995-1999) under the former PSBN Jeff Luker. But I slowly faded out of training as life took over.
Now I'm in a position to start training again, and I am considering returning to KSW. However, I had heard some fears expressed before I left that WKSA was going to be taking over the billing and pricing of classes. Does anyone know if this is true?
The other advice I would ask is if anyone has any advice for a VERY out of shape brown belt.... I'm in the worst shape I've been in since Jr. High, and one of the big motivations I've got for resuming training is to get back into shape.
So advice, if you would be so kind, O Artists!
KSN Doug
09-19-2002, 07:53
To this point, I have not seen any serious attempt to accomplish what you describe. All the schools up here in the Northeast still set their own pricing, and collect their own fees. Headquarters has always set the prices on black belt promotions, so that hasn't changed. However, everything under black, and all the monthly class prices are up to the individual schools.
If you HAVE to prepare before going back, I would just work on some cardio endurance. Everything else you need to get back to class to refresh.
worndowndahnbonym
09-20-2002, 02:09
Oh yes, there is a definite need to prepare... I went from an active job, to a sitting at a desk job, and have put on close to 50 pounds of flab.
I'm quite excited to hear that WKSA hasn't intruded... that was one of the things that I was worried about.
The instructor that I would be dealing with informed me that Master Suh has put together a program for students returning to KSW after an absence.... something I can really see a need for here in my area, as there is a small army of former KSW students.
Does anyone know anything of this program? I'm not doubting KSN Hall, but I'm curious to know if there has been anyone else that has dealt with this before.
KSN Doug
09-20-2002, 07:57
Fortunately, I've never had to be out more than a few months. That was when I first moved up to CT from Houston. And even then I was still practicing everything I could on my own. When I went back, I just found the class schedule of the nearest dojang, talked with the head instructor, and started going.
As my current dojang is a ways away from me, I only get there on Friday nights after work for about 3 hours. I have to train on my own the rest of the week. We're small enough that we probably wouldn't need any program as you describe, and I haven't heard of it to this point either.
Just out of curiosity, were is it that you train, and why is there a "small army" of "former" students?
worndowndahnbonym
09-21-2002, 03:47
Rather a long story, and I can't go into much detail, because I was only a little involved with what was going on...
I trained in Sacramento, home of Sacramento Kuk Sool Won for years and years under PSBN Jeff Luker. Mr. Luker was in the process of training for his 5th degree test, and was quite well known in the ranks....
But some legal problems cropped up, and Mr. Luker eventually left the WSKA, and Kuk Sool Won. Mr. Luker and Amy Goodwin trained Kuk Sool Won in schools and through the parks and rec district here, so I'm constantly running into students that trained for a while, and then stopped when Mr. Luker left.
For a long time, Sacramento Kuk Sool Won was the only Kuk Sool Won school in the sacramento area, but that has since changed, and Kuk Sool Won is once again being taught in a classroom structure under KSN Casy (I don't remember her last name, and she may be a 3rd Degree by now..). If I resume (which I'm looking into) I will be training under KSN Dominic Hall, adult Champion at the SF International Tournament in 1995 (and 1996? maybe? )
martialartsfreak
12-16-2002, 14:31
I may be slightly off topic but..........Is it accurate to call Kuk Sool Won Korean kung fu?? I don't practise KSW but I am well versed in kung fu and hapkido and from what I've seen of KSW, I'm impressed and always thought it looks very much like a korean version of kung fu. I'm I wrong in assuming this?
worndowndahnbonym
12-24-2002, 05:36
It sort of depends on the school of Kung Fu you come from.
Kuk Sool is what is usually refered to as a "Mixed style", meaning it is not all linear and power strikes as in TKD, and it's not all circles and fluidity, as in Wu Shu.
There is a lot of focus on joint locks and throws, as is in Kung Fu (from what I've seen) and there is a pretty heavy weapons training in the upper levels, also as in Kung Fu.
I don't know about the philosophy in Kung Fu, but you may want to do some research on "Hu Won Wa", the elemental philosophy behind KSW.
Good Luck!
R. Brandle
H@pkid0ist
12-24-2002, 13:14
KSW is a great art. Simular in so many wys to HKD and HRD. In the long run it depends on the school though. The system itself is great, but you need to make sure the instruction is quality and realistic. This is all up to the instructor reguardless of any art. There are a lot of great increadable arts out there that are Fed up by the instructors.
worndowndahnbonym
12-26-2002, 04:01
Unrelated, but what are the odds of getting a Kuk Sool won forum on this site?
I've looked around, and I can't find any other Kuk Sool won message boards anywhere.
And as can be seen by this thread alone, there are at least a few active posters that practice Kuk Sool, or want information on it.
Ray Brandle
ushankido
09-27-2003, 00:18
Question: If Kuk Sool Won means "Nations or National Martial Art" then why isn't it headquartered in Korea. Lastly, aren't there numbers (schools/students) in Korea quite low?
worndowndahnbonym
10-09-2003, 20:59
The headquarters for the WKSA are in Texas. However, the arts themselves originally came from Korea (and mayhaps with some Japanese influence.... a constant source of debate).
Personally, I imagine it makes very little difference these days. The WKSA could be in the US for business reasons, or tax reasons, or maybe because the founder prefers the climate of Texas.
Kuk, if it means nation, could be any nation. And Kuk, if it means specifically Korea, could mean that the arts are from the Korean nation, but have since then spread throughout the world.
According the the WKSA, there are quite a few students and school in Korea. I've seen footage of a fairly large amount of students practicing hyung in unison that was taken in Korea.... not that that is indicitave of anything, but it's helped me paint a fairly decent picture of what Kuk Sool is like in Korea.... not as large as TKD, but growing.
ushankido
10-09-2003, 21:56
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Andyminkorea
10-17-2003, 10:34
Does anyone know how I can find out if there is a Kuk Sool Won school near me, I live near Pusan where loads of the oldest schools were set up but I'm too far away from Pusan to travel there.
Is there a Korean KSW association?
Does anybody know it's website?
I'm keen to learn KSW as I'm training in taekwondo at the moment but due to the way things are in Korea it's mainly kids in the classes.
I'd like to go to a school with a more adult focused training program (It's no big deal if I can't find one as I'm really loving taekwondo- 1 and half hours a day, 5 days a week even more if I can reach my blue belt!)
Thanks for any advice/help you can offer
Andy
ushankido
10-17-2003, 11:00
Here's the link to the World Kuk Sool Association.
http://www.kuksoolwon.com/
worndowndahnbonym
10-23-2003, 20:44
Hey, ushankido, is that you bidding on the Red Book on Ebay? I noticed the names were similar.....
ushankido
10-23-2003, 22:20
Yep. Am I bidding against you?
worndowndahnbonym
10-24-2003, 13:37
Sadly, no. That's way out of my price range.
At this point, I'm just looking for volume 2 of the current editions of the Kuk Sool Won books... if I can get away with paying less than $50, I would consider it a good deal.
ushankido
10-24-2003, 13:40
Try the KSW website. They have all of the books for sale.
worndowndahnbonym
10-24-2003, 14:43
Yeah, I'm just trying to avoid spending the rather high price for them by buying used. Ah well....
2ManArmy
07-04-2004, 18:24
I trained in Houston for three years with the Harmons and some very talented other black belts. They (Mr. and Mrs. Harmon) are superb instructors, and KSW has a lot to offer. Now I am in (with no choice in the matter) Karate, and despite my excellent instructor and debatably better self-defense technique, overall Karate doesn't come close to Kuk Sool.
The text books run at $60, and the only benefit of buying them from a school is that you can have them signed by an instructor and don't have to pay for shipping.
Cunnivore
01-11-2005, 14:56
There's a 4th degree with a school near me. His name is Cleo Randall. The website is HERE (http://home.earthlink.net/~espivey/index.htm). Does anyone here recognize him or have any opinion? I've never trained in KSW, but from what I've heard and read, it might be a good choice, as well as being an art my son and I can train in at the same time. I haven't tried his school yet, but I'm going tonight. If I like this school, it might end up being my dojo. If not, I'll probably end up with Mike Brown of the NTFA, who also teaches Aikijujutsu.
Say, guys, does anyone know of an online resource that shows the 1st form (kata) and the 1st set of moves, I think it's called kibonsoo?
I did a little kuk sool and, while it doesn't captivate my heart like BJJ does, I'd like to remember what I learned and the order in which these skills came. Having one form and the first group of moves available could be helpful. I remember the skills, just not the order in which they are meant to come.
I'd like to teach my little 120 lb wife some of these moves, too, and in the same structure as kuk sool as I'm hoping she'll go to the school where I used to go.
Any ideas?
Thanks heaps.
-Erik
tony ferone
01-12-2005, 19:34
hi my name is tony and i live in connecticut . i wouild like to know if there is a kuksoolwon dojang in connecticut. tony ferone.
ushankido
01-18-2005, 06:43
Tony,
Visit the World KSW site at http://www.kuksoolwon.com and click under the school section to find a dojang in your area.
rconwayksw
03-18-2005, 19:26
Hello, all. I'm new to the forums here, and wanted to introduce myself. I've been studying Kuk Sool Won for about six years now. I'm a first Dan, and will be testing the first time for my second Dan this summer. I assistant-teach in the kid's classes, and both of my own kids study Kuk Sool Won as well. I train in Rochester, NY under Kwang Jahng Nim Gary Evarts. Our website is here (http://kuksoolgreaterrochester.com).
I'm happy to discuss any and all aspects of martial arts training. Looking forward to learning more from all of you.
Best wishes!
Rudy W. Timmerman
03-18-2005, 22:34
Hello, all. I'm new to the forums here, and wanted to introduce myself. I've been studying Kuk Sool Won for about six years now. I'm a first Dan, and will be testing the first time for my second Dan this summer. I assistant-teach in the kid's classes, and both of my own kids study Kuk Sool Won as well. I train in Rochester, NY under Kwang Jahng Nim Gary Evarts. Our website is here (http://kuksoolgreaterrochester.com).
I'm happy to discuss any and all aspects of martial arts training. Looking forward to learning more from all of you.
Best wishes!
KJN Evarts is a fine practitioner whom I have known for a long time. Lost touch with him after I left the organization, and perhaps you can say hello to him for me.
Say, guys, does anyone know of an online resource that shows the 1st form (kata) and the 1st set of moves, I think it's called kibonsoo?
Erik,
The first form is actually called Ki Cho Hyung. The first set of techniques is Ki Bohn Soo. As far as where you can find video or online resources that's kind of tough. I've actually never seen video or photos posted online of this stuff.
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