On having more that one Sensei.

[makotodojo]

Dear readers of this forum.

I have a question. What is the traditional Japanese outlook on a new student (someone who has either no training, or low kyu level training) who is already training with a sensei, trying to join another Dojo? Wanting to train in both Dojo.

Also what is your personal feelings on this?

If you are contacted by a student, young(14-25yrs), no real training, who is already training somewhere and this person wants to train with you while still training with their other sensei.

Thank you.

Regards,

[Ron Tisdale]

As long as their other instructor is aware of what they are doing, and has no problem with it, I would be fine with it. I wouldn't like it as much if it was some big secret. Personally, I'd like to be sure the student is clear about their objectives, and plans to train appropriately in each place, and is willing to consider focusing on one thing if they find doing two things interfers with their progress.

Best,
Ron

[Gene Williams]

Dear readers of this forum.

I have a question. What is the traditional Japanese outlook on a new student (someone who has either no training, or low kyu level training) who is already training with a sensei, trying to join another Dojo? Wanting to train in both Dojo.

Also what is your personal feelings on this?

If you are contacted by a student, young(14-25yrs), no real training, who is already training somewhere and this person wants to train with you while still training with their other sensei.

Thank you.

Regards,


Only if they are studying a separate art. If they want to do karate and come to my dojo, it is my way or the highway.:bow:

[Peter Rehse]

Dear readers of this forum.

I have a question. What is the traditional Japanese outlook on a new student (someone who has either no training, or low kyu level training) who is already training with a sensei, trying to join another Dojo? Wanting to train in both Dojo.

Also what is your personal feelings on this?

If you are contacted by a student, young(14-25yrs), no real training, who is already training somewhere and this person wants to train with you while still training with their other sensei.

Thank you.

Regards,

The traditional view?

Low kyu grades are just that but if they want to commit and take their art to a higher level you must commit to one teacher.

So no problem. Just don't expect commitment to be anything but reciprocal.

[TonyU]

The traditional view?

Low kyu grades are just that but if they want to commit and take their art to a higher level you must commit to one teacher.

So no problem. Just don't expect commitment to be anything but reciprocal.
Nicely put, Peter.

[Peter Rehse]

Slow day at work so I think I'll expand on something.

Traditionally speaking (and this is true in China or Japan) the way a dojo was run and funded was very different than now. Using Japanese terms...

You opened a dojo primarily to develope your own art and reputation - not to increase your income based on the number of students. With that in mind the dojo itself has several layers.

In the centre is the teacher. You don't hear such pithy statements like "I want to teach and help people". The better he is perceived to be the better students he will attract.

The next level are the core students. The ones he has identified in the past and trained up. These are the ones that allow him to train at the level he wants to so that he can train harder, increase his reputation and well ... the wheel turns.

Next down are the young deshi that show promise - there's always one or two that get a lot of attention.

And then there is everyone else although even here there might be a few layers and I am not talking belt colors.

Generally speaking the more mature the dojo is the fewer "everyone else" there is. The dojo will increasingly be funded by patrons rather than student fees. Those patrons may be older (and now richer) students but may even be local business men who have a vested interest to having a "master" with a reputation nearby, or anyone else that feels funding a place to study the way enhances their own reputation.

As a teacher ages the core students become even more important - their own reputation adds to your own. Througout it is these people that are responsible for teaching the mudansha.

So basically if you want the attention and full knowledge you don't want to be "everyone else". You want to strongly commit and have that recognized.

[Harlan]

Thank you, for that interesting post! Can I ask a question that touches on this post? (I hope it is not derailing.) For the mature dojo, the one that has long time advanced students that teach the beginners: What happens when 'the other' get to the point of being able to train with the head sensei?

We have an informal setup, so I'm at a point where I could train with my teacher's teacher, in the same class as more advanced students, but it feels awkward to take training from another; I turn down opportunities to train because I have committed to train with one person, another student, and can't reconcile teacher roles, or having 'more than one sensei'. Does this happen in dojos, and how is it reconciled?

[Peter Rehse]

Then you train with the head sensei.

Most of the classes I take at Shodokan Honbu are taught by the deshi - that is their major function. I am still a student of the Shihan - that basically occurs when you become yudansha, before that you are a dojo member.

In fact you can learn from just about anyone - but your reference point should be one person and the more experienced the better. That doesn't mean you toss your old teachers out the window.

Personally when Shihan starts paying attention to my students I consider it a good thing.

[makotodojo]

Thank you to everyone for your replies.


I personally prefer that a student trains at my Dojo only
until at least Shodan before they cross train, if at all.

My reasons are because I find it to be a pain in the behind to undo what other teachers do. In other words, what might be great taijutsu for one style might be a "bad habit" in another style. If you have a student learning a style based on speed, power and tension, then that sme person trying to learn an internal chinese style will be having an up hill battle. Sort of like pushing the gas and the brake at the same time.

Also I dislike the consumer mentality that people can get sometimes. A little of this, a little of that...

What I am wondering, is let's say that someone want's to study Katori Shinto Ryu, but is already enrolled in Daito Ryu. Is there a precedure one follows traditionally, or is this even allowed to happen?

Thank you again

Regards,

[Gene Williams]

Thank you to everyone for your replies.


I personally prefer that a student trains at my Dojo only
until at least Shodan before they cross train, if at all.

My reasons are because I find it to be a pain in the behind to undo what other teachers do. In other words, what might be great taijutsu for one style might be a "bad habit" in another style. If you have a student learning a style based on speed, power and tension, then that sme person trying to learn an internal chinese style will be having an up hill battle. Sort of like pushing the gas and the brake at the same time.

Also I dislike the consumer mentality that people can get sometimes. A little of this, a little of that...

What I am wondering, is let's say that someone want's to study Katori Shinto Ryu, but is already enrolled in Daito Ryu. Is there a precedure one follows traditionally, or is this even allowed to happen?

Thank you again

Regards,

There probably would be no problem with that. I would encourage someone to wait until they had trained in one art for a few years before taking up another. Daito ryu and kenjutsu would complement each other very nicely.

[Yoshimura]

There probably would be no problem with that. I would encourage someone to wait until they had trained in one art for a few years before taking up another. Daito ryu and kenjutsu would complement each other very nicely.I would second on that. The risk for beginners otherwise is, that the arts are getting mixed up and they don't advance in either of them. I am personally thinking of taking on another art, but I committed myself to wait at least another year or two.

[Peter Rehse]

I used to have the same opinion about not cross-training until at least Shodan if not longer but I changed my mind.

I think its a good thing for a beginner to try various arts. I think eventually they have to choose in order to advance but I really want them to believe the fit is right with me when they do that.

If I teach only twice a week who am I to restrict unbridled enthusiasm. I would prefer something different enough that there is no confusion. Two Aikido styles I could have more trouble with (depends on the other teacher) than lets say Aikido and Judo. Few people are that foolish that they can not seperate one from the other.

I think its very important for one art to be at least aware of the potential of what else is out there. That sort of exploration I would leave to after Shodan mainly because that is the most potentially annoying thing I have to deal with. I know the Shodan or at least high Ikkyu can deal with the ukemi when I show him what I would do. They also understand enough of the rei when to bring it up.

So TRADITIONALLY (in Japan)

I once asked to train in another Aikido Shihans dojo because my Honbu dojo was too far away. He asked me to withdraw from Shodokan - I declined. His students occaisionally come to me and some of mine have gone to his classes. We are on cordial terms just not student teacher.

I onced asked to train in a Koryu style and was asked for letters from my Shihan. I decided it was better not to stir up that nest so I let it be. I have visited and participated in several Koryu styles in the past but again this was after something more formal.

I walked into a Judo dojo and just started training. They got me dan graded pretty quick and these days (ok not lately because I killed my car) I help teach kids and work out with anyone else who drops in.

[makotodojo]

Thank you.

[fifthchamber]

I would say that traditionally (Indeed, just the same as it is now) the only person to ask about this would have been (And is) one's own Sensei. The schools have rules when you join and those are, of course followed too.
In your example you use Daito Ryu and the Shinto Ryu. In that case either Otake Sensei or Kondo Sensei would have to approve for it to be anything close to above board...If they didn't agree the chances are that they would think it unwise for one reason or another to mix the arts..But the Sensei is the ultimate power as regards that one.
These days many arts here are more open to this as well, they have seen that students can manage to train in two or more arts and still be viable as students..But it's not easy and the Sensei has the final call on it..
I would also suggest you ask the prospective student to read the article by Dave Lowry in the third book from Koryu.com, a great article that sums up all the possible issues with cross training that the student should expect.
Regards.

[allan]

I would also suggest you ask the prospective student to read the article by Dave Lowry in the third book from Koryu.com, a great article that sums up all the possible issues with cross training that the student should expect.
Regards.

I second Ben's suggestion. Lowry's article is well-thought out and interesting.

Good day,
Al

[makotodojo]

Dear Mr. Sharples and Mr. Heinemann,

thank you I will look at it.

Sincerely,

[Crysto84]

I am currently training at 2 different schools. My first school was a Tang Soo Do school. I earned my 1st Dan there. I trained there for about 8 years. I started working as a security officer and my scheduled prevented me from training.

I found at Yoseikan Karate school that offered classes when I was available. So I started training there. I am a 7th Kyu (Orange belt) getting ready to test for my 6th Kyu (Green belt).

My schedule changed again. I got promoted to sargeant so now I work day shift. So now I am training at both schools. I believe myself to be loyal to both schools and all of my instructors. I will also support both schools as well. I believe training in different styles can strengthen and make you grow as a martial artist. Not one style is better than the other. We tend to get too caught up in competition. Thats not what martial arts is about.

In my training is am learning the differences in styles between Tang Soo Do and Karate. The stances and techniques are slightly different. So I have to reprogram my brain at times. Tang Soo Do is more speed and high kicks and so forth. While Karate is more strength and lower techniques. So I want to strengthen my low defense and offense as well as my high defense and offense.

The Yoseikan I train in is a combination of several styles. Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Aikido, and Iaido.

Martial Arts is a expression of one's self. I feel we should train in different styles to strengthen our character and to discover ourselves as a martial artist.

[moogong]

I am currently training at 2 different schools. My first school was a Tang Soo Do school. I earned my 1st Dan there. I trained there for about 8 years. I started working as a security officer and my scheduled prevented me from training.

I found at Yoseikan Karate school that offered classes when I was available. So I started training there. I am a 7th Kyu (Orange belt) getting ready to test for my 6th Kyu (Green belt).

My schedule changed again. I got promoted to sargeant so now I work day shift. So now I am training at both schools. I believe myself to be loyal to both schools and all of my instructors. I will also support both schools as well. I believe training in different styles can strengthen and make you grow as a martial artist. Not one style is better than the other. We tend to get too caught up in competition. Thats not what martial arts is about.

In my training is am learning the differences in styles between Tang Soo Do and Karate. The stances and techniques are slightly different. So I have to reprogram my brain at times. Tang Soo Do is more speed and high kicks and so forth. While Karate is more strength and lower techniques. So I want to strengthen my low defense and offense as well as my high defense and offense.

The Yoseikan I train in is a combination of several styles. Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Aikido, and Iaido.

Martial Arts is a expression of one's self. I feel we should train in different styles to strengthen our character and to discover ourselves as a martial artist.


How are you loyal to both instructors? You have shown your taekwondo instructor that you will go learn another style from somebody else and you have shown your karate instructor you are not willing to leave behind you previous training or teacher. I am not criticizing your cross training because I have done it for years but rather your definition of loyalty. Loyalty does not change just because your schedule becomes an inconvenience.

Also, I think your assessment of the two styles will most definitely change over the years. As you grow in your art you will see it no longer becomes easy to make statements of the arts characteristics. That is a subject for another thread though.

[loki]

If you are running a school for business and are going to keep the doors open, you will run into this. Personally, I never had a problem with students who were 'double dipping' since (1) I didn't care about the local 'dojo crashing' tactics that can happen - let them see what I do, nothing to hide and (2) my doors were open to anyone who was willing to train within the guidelines of the class (basic safe and responsible conduct, proper working attitude/character practices). For professional courtesy, ensure that the other instructor knows that the student is 'double dipping' but we are not bound by some mythic code of loyalty that, to be honest, probably never existed in reality. We are educational institutions (privately operated) providing a service to paying clients. As far as business ethics/practices, we have to decide how we run things to make sure we are operating legally, socially responsibly, and in a way that will not hurt our own market image.

In my personal training, I believe deeply in cross training early, often, and frequently as long as you can afford it. No 'one' approach has it all. Admittedly, the learning curve of each individual system can be retarded because of the hyperexposure to other things, but that isn't a bad thing necessarily.

Not everyone sees it that way for various reasons, but my main focus in MA training is effectiveness/self defense, so having exposure to more than one way of movement when developing my read/react awareness is a good thing since you don't know how 'they' will move when you are out in the real world.


Dear readers of this forum.

I have a question. What is the traditional Japanese outlook on a new student (someone who has either no training, or low kyu level training) who is already training with a sensei, trying to join another Dojo? Wanting to train in both Dojo.

Also what is your personal feelings on this?

If you are contacted by a student, young(14-25yrs), no real training, who is already training somewhere and this person wants to train with you while still training with their other sensei.

Thank you.

Regards,

[MilkManX]

I train both Kyokushin and Enshin right now. They are very simular though!

[Crysto84]

How are you loyal to both instructors? You have shown your taekwondo instructor that you will go learn another style from somebody else and you have shown your karate instructor you are not willing to leave behind you previous training or teacher. I am not criticizing your cross training because I have done it for years but rather your definition of loyalty. Loyalty does not change just because your schedule becomes an inconvenience.

Also, I think your assessment of the two styles will most definitely change over the years. As you grow in your art you will see it no longer becomes easy to make statements of the arts characteristics. That is a subject for another thread though.
So you're saying you can only be loyal to one person? I understand it is a tradition to only train under one Master. At that period of time you trained under one master for the rest of your life. But things change with time. Now we are seeing bigger schools with several Masters and Grandmasters. You end up training under several different Masters. So is that disloyalty to your master? Remember, you're only supposed to train under one master. So you change tradition to being loyal to the school. Tradition was changed. Now there are schools with several Masters and teach several styles. Is that disloyalty to their Masters of each particular style? Tang Soo Do (Moo Duk Kwan) was created but several styles. Chinese Yang Style, Okinawan Karate, and Korean martial arts. Grandmaster Hwang Kee trained in Chung Do Kwan. According to my research the Master of chung do Kwan trained in Japan. Were the disloyal to their Masters? Yoseikan was developed to strengthen weaknesses. They trained in various styles so they would be prepared for different situations. Was that disloyal? So if you do some research even the Masters of Tradition have broken "tradition". Then you have the fact; where did martial arts come from? Korea got most of their arts from China and Japan. Japan got theirs from China and so forth. Each country adapted their own styles from other styles. Is that disloyalty?

Loyalty is a matter of point of view. I believe I can be loyal to as many people as I wish. People get stuck on competition and forget the real meaning behind martial arts. Martial arts is a way to better yourself. It teaches self-defense, increases self-esteem and confidence. It teaches disipline. Schools are homes and students and instructors are family. We all know families can grow. So I have 2 martial art homes and even more family members. People should be humble and look at the big picture. This is my opinion anyways. I don't mean any disrespect to anyone.

[CEB]

Hey I don't know much but what the heck.....

Once you have a base I think it is prudent to fill in holes if you actually want to learn some bare-handed fighting. If you just want some sort of social hobby then do whatever you want. It doesn't matter .... Just don't think you know anything.

I have paper in several different arts but the biggest piece of my training over the last 33 and 11/12th years has been is in Karate. IMO my Karate consistutes my most effective fighting technique. I've used it on 2 occassions and it works pretty good.

But it has limits. Karate can go out the window when you have 200 pounds of man on top of you. Position matters!

Check this out. The man getting his butt handed to him may be a good Karate man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGcJSzp-Utk&feature=related

[Rasputin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGcJSzp-Utk&feature=related

Wow. The judo guy sure missed a crapload of attacks from kesa gatame. Must not have been big on training newaza.

Reminded me of why the UFC used to be so cool before all the weight classes and rules.

[chonmun]

i think the main question is not about if you have one sensei period, but rather if you have one main teacher per style.

some martial artists enjoy training in a couple of complementary styles to "fill in gaps" as mentioned above.

i think that filling in the gaps is important when considering a complete fight and the different ranges of fighting. i believe that sometimes it is best for the student to explore in order to find their feet. Advanced student also oftgen need to shop around a bit in order to research and learn more from their existing art. comparison is good.

the problems could potentially occur if you went to other instructors within the the same style without the knowledge of your main guy.

this could create political problems between the different instructors and may not have good results for the style.

the best way is to simply communicate and be open with instructors to gauge their opinion about cross dojo, and cross style training.

just my view.
later

[Nick L.]

Wow. The judo guy sure missed a crapload of attacks from kesa gatame. Must not have been big on training newaza.


He just couldn't figure out that Ashi Ude Garami.

Brian,
On the topic of this thread, do you hold loyalty to one Sensei over the other(s) and if so, does the secondary Sensei know where his training is placed in your life?

[Crysto84]

He just couldn't figure out that Ashi Ude Garami.

Brian,
On the topic of this thread, do you hold loyalty to one Sensei over the other(s) and if so, does the secondary Sensei know where his training is placed in your life?
I feel I am loyal to them equally. We feel like we are family at both schools. I take my training serious at both schools and they are a big part of my life. There are some differences in techniques. After I have gained more and more experience in both styles I can take what I have learned and make my own style. After all Martial Arts is about expressing ones self. When I said make my own style I am not meaning another art. I mean technique. I will use the techniques I feel work for me.

I have trained in Tang Soo Do for 8 years. So its a little more comfortable to me since thats what I know. I have only been training in Karate for about 6 months. I am learning things in Karate that I haven't learned in Tang Soo Do.

Tang Soo Do makes me fast and flexible. Karate is making me stronger. Together I will be fast, flexible, and strong.

[Nick L.]

Tang Soo Do makes me fast and flexible. Karate is making me stronger. Together I will be fast, flexible, and strong.

Ah ha, so you think your kung fu is good, ha-ha, ha :karate:. Would you like to back that up, Ah ha. My tiger claw will teach you ha-ha.:laugh:

Jus' kiddin.

I would think that since you have trained in TSD for eight years, you should be ready to explore other teachings. I wish that I could have started my martial arts training at an early age!

[Crysto84]

Ah ha, so you think your kung fu is good, ha-ha, ha :karate:. Would you like to back that up, Ah ha. My tiger claw will teach you ha-ha.:laugh:

Jus' kiddin.

I would think that since you have trained in TSD for eight years, you should be ready to explore other teachings. I wish that I could have started my martial arts training at an early age!
I would be glad to learn your tiger claw. It might come useful. :-)

I started training around the age of 16. I kind of wish I would of started younger that way I would have more experience and perform better.

Some of my instructors has referred to Gup/Kyu belts as grade school and Dan Belts as college. You learn the basics and then you start learning more advanced things. If we train at different schools and styles we can find a style that fits us more. Every school is different and every teacher teaches differently. Everyone has their own experiences.

[TonyU]

If I may add something slightly off topic but has been mentioned. Do not preoccupy yourselves with "I should have started training at a younger age".
Martial artist who have started very young and have kept with it are rare.
Also at that young age it doens't necessarily give you a better understanding of the art. One is not mentally or physically mature enough.
I started at 18 and also wished I started younger, but have come to the realization that if I did I probably wouldn't have stuck with it.

[Rasputin]

I wish I had started in grade school, but only because it would have made the a$$kickings work the other way during Junior High School. It would also have given me more confidence during High School. Those were the years I would have found it to be most useful.