Sparring - Yes or No?

[jjaje]

I was reading through one of those free Metro Parent magazines we picked up at the gymnastics place. It's one of those magazines that lists different events for kids and also has tons of ads in them for Gymnastics/Dance/Karate/music lessons...

I saw one ad for a martial arts studio which made a big deal about being non-competitive and also having no-sparring. This ad was mostly geared towards parents for signing up their children.

I don't want to mention the style and get into style bashing, but instead I'd like to have a conversation on everyone's opinions on sparring and children.

Do you think it's an important part of the curriculum?
How intense should they go?
Does sparring reinforce any bad habits?

Personally, I think sparring is one of many tools available to instructing children. When we spar, we usually do a continuous form of sparring. As far as intensity, when an adult is paired with a child, I want to see some intensity from teh child (focused and controlled abviously though).

I believe sparring is useful so children can start to read body language, and also so that in a real confrontation they hopefully can keep some focus and not freak out.

What are your thoughts?

[moogong]

I think for any student regardless of age, if you take sparring out of a contact art, you are doing them a disservice. Sparring bridges the gap between theory and practicality and even children benefit from seeing the difference between the two.
Competition is healthy for a child if it regulated properly. The problem comes in when you have a very sparring or competition driven instructor that devotes the majority of the class time to an activity that less gifted or skilled children feel like they fail at. That is when a student gets discouraged and is more likely to quit.

[Jeff Burger]

I think most people are going to disagree with me but Im all for it.
If you start them young and they grow up with it and you do it right they are ok with it. Less fear and anxiety.

I like starting them out with grappling.

As far as kids not being able to perform the techniques correctly thats half crap.
For example how many UFC fighters throw punches and kicks the way you learned in your Dojo / Dojang / Kwoon ? Answer, almost none.
You can learn alot about natural movement by watching kids.

[Yoshimura]

Sparring helps the kids to translate the forms blocks into real activity. I had a few kids they got the hang of it of kicking the grown ups (including myself). However, you have to be very sensitive of the size difference. Some kids get a little scared in the beginning.

[Eliz]

Do we have an age group? Just curious.

I think controlled sparring is an important part of MA's learning for all ages. To be perfectly honest, however, I haven't really seen too many young (non competitive) classes that are overly impressive. The kids seem to don their equipment and go dance around in it for a while, than they are done for another week. Along about 7 years old or so, the kids seem to get a little more into the groove of things.

I made an exception to young competitors as I have seen quite a few young (5 ish) ones that are outstanding. They are training several times a week and have a goal that they are working for.

I guess that reinforces what others have said about competition being healthy. I will also clarify that I teach pre-teens, teens and adults. I haven't worked with young ones for quite a few years.

[asdf]

I think sparring is fine for kids; I would argue, however, that having fun and satying safe would take a higher priority over learning "how to fight," especially for pre-teens. In TKD, they mostly just throw very sloppy roundhouse kicks at each other until they are too tired to continue, which hardly constitute a threat. (Actually, this sounds like something some adults to as well! :))

Let the adults and older kids worry about "real sparring," I say.

[wildwills]

I think most people are going to disagree with me but Im all for it.
If you start them young and they grow up with it and you do it right they are ok with it. Less fear and anxiety.

I like starting them out with grappling.

As far as kids not being able to perform the techniques correctly thats half crap.
For example how many UFC fighters throw punches and kicks the way you learned in your Dojo / Dojang / Kwoon ? Answer, almost none.
You can learn alot about natural movement by watching kids.


Jeff....I absolutely agree. I just wish my dojo had a dedicated kids grappling class. I only know of a few kids that don't like to grapple/wrestle...and that's including the girls too.

I think too that sparring (striking) for kids also helps them with self control both in mind and body.

[Jeff Burger]

We had some 5 year olds that would change alot of peoples minds.

Our kids start learning ukemi / break falls from day 1.
There first type of sparring is grappling.
Once they can can fall we will spar with just throws, then we may allow them to go from throws into grappling.

Next is a sparring / multiple opponents type drill "Ju Jutsu tag" if you will. Ill put 1 against two the two can only touch with hands and the one can only get out of the way. When they are good at that I might let them use kicks too and or let the one do more hands on while getting out of the way (sabaki type type blocks, pushing one into another).
We have had some kids get really good at this. We have had some kids who can do very well with 5 or 6 on 1.
If everybody involved can fall well Ill let the 1 do throws.

For striking Ill put body pads on them and say full contact to the body only hands only. Then kicks to only and only to the body. Then I might let them add throws or leg kicks. Yup I let them hit with leg kicks. Thing is when they get a sting more often than not by this level they are laughing about it.
Its not far from there before they are literally begging me to let them go to the head.

You start them young you can cultivate what they fear and what they dont.
We had some awesome personal developments for kids. We had two kids who were so shy they came to watch class 5 or 6 times over almost a year before they signed up and they literally hid behind their mom when they watch.
They ended up being two of the best (and 1 was admittedly teachers pet).

[Gordon Nore]

I saw one ad for a martial arts studio which made a big deal about being non-competitive and also having no-sparring. This ad was mostly geared towards parents for signing up their children.
...
Do you think it's an important part of the curriculum?
How intense should they go?
Does sparring reinforce any bad habits?

A martial arts class for kids without sparring. I can't see it. I've met many instructors who don't take their kids to tournaments because they've had bad experiences with over-the-top parents and kids with bad attitudes, but why not have controlled sparring in their own school? The accidental bump in the mouth or nose can be extremely instructive for both children. I've supervised or watched hundreds of elementary school aged kids spar, and I've seen more kids get hurt in soccer, hockey, little league, or even gym class.

As for teaching kids some groundwork, absolutely! Young children can be taught to fall and roll so naturally. Young kids tend to be more comfortable working in close with eachother like that. Those are some great ideas, Jeff B!

The kids pictured below had been taking falls for only a few weeks.

[jjaje]

Do we have an age group? Just curious.


Well the picture of the kid in the ad put him at 4 I'd say. But I was thinking sparring in general and kids younger than teens.

Great discussion everyone, let's hear some more opinions.

[QuiKujoJin]

I thnk it's a good idea becuase it lets kids know just exactly what they can and can't do. When I was a kid, I was big for my age. My mom always told to be careful with other kids because I might hurt someone. That was just normal rough-housing. Turns out I wasn't any tougher than anyone else.

When I started martial arts (around 14), sparring was great. I knew what worked for me and what didn't.

I think anyone (kids or adults) should have to spar if they do martial arts. It may relieve some fears, whether it be they think they'll hurt someone, or that what they know won't be effective.

Just my two cents.

[Jeff Burger]

Those are some great ideas, Jeff B!

Thanks, I half expecting to get scolded.

[saluteme54]

Now, i know this is not the same thing but i grew up in a rough city. When i was growing up i had to defend myself as well as i could, so if that meant scrap then i scrapped but it didn't really have adverse side effects. I am now in the army, and will be starting college at BGSU next year to become a teacher. So basically i think that the sooner kids can learn to defend themselves the more confidence they will have and they will have better control. Plus sparring is not like fighting i dont think a kid that is too young would get hurt bad.

later.

[Gordon Nore]

Thanks, I half expecting to get scolded.

What for???

[Jeff Burger]

So basically i think that the sooner kids can learn to defend themselves the more confidence they will have and they will have better control

I think so too. Thing is making it the right environment for them.


Gordon..
Like I mentioned I was waiting to get scolded.

[toryander]

The kids in our dojang spar every week. They seem to love it. Usually the only tears you ever see isn't when a kid gets kicked, but when when he or she does the kicking wrong and kicks an elbow or something. Generally we will match the kids up by skill level and weight. Quite often we will let them pick who they want to spar. The smart ones will pick a much higher belt because the lower belt has learned that the higher belts will bang them up less than someone their own level (higher belts exercise control). We speak a little about this, but most of the kids learn fast that you will get back what you give either by one you are sparring now or by one you will spar later. I think this is a valuable, natural lesson in control.

[coralreefer]

I think sparring for kids can be a good thing, but on the other side, for some it can be a bad thing as well. I think this is a decidion for an instructor to make, to know your students well enough to have an idea of which ones are ready and which ones are not. I teach here in Korea, and most of my students are under 10 years old. It's true, most of them just put on the gear and dance, play, or otherwise chase each other around the room. It's very difficult for kids to stick with and use the footworks, drills, and skills they have learned, and actually apply it in a sparring situation. Some kids are very eager to spar, while others are not. At my dojang, I will not make them spar if they dont want to. If they are not willing to spar with an actual opponent, then I will do target sparring with them with 2 kicking paddles.

I think some care needs to be taken concerning young children and sparring. Some children are naturally more competitive than others, and learn and understand, and can apply the concepts faster . It can be easy for a child who is not so adept at sparring to become disappointed and feel like they cant do it as well as others, and want to quit. I think it is an instructors job, to seperate those kids from the others, and find a way to teach them sparring skills without putting them in a competivive environment with their peers.

Let me give you an example. In one of my classes, it is mostly children under 9, but in that class, there is one 12 year old boy, a little heavy, but he does TKD as well as the others. As my dojang is only 6 months old, he and one other boy from his neighborhood (8 years old) were my very first students, so currently, they are my highest ranking students. As they are friends, and comparably equal in rank and skill, I pair them up sometimes. The 8 year old boy enjoys sparring alot, and does well at applying the curriculum and footwork to score points. When they spar, the smaller boy usually does very well, using his skills to score points, keeps coming at the 12 year old, and has a very aggressive nature. So the older boy, because he is older, heavier, and alot stronger, can't really do anything, because if he actually hit the boy like he could, he would hurt him. So because of this, all he can really do is be on the defensive, and block and evade. One day, after a round, be broke into tears and shouted "What am I, a sand bag?" He was upset that the other boy could score on him so easily, and upset with me that I pair them up quite a bit. I had to explain to him, that I do so, because he and the other boy are of the highest skill, and therefore, can learn from each other. I know the older boy can be aggressive, but I want him to learn to be more agile and quick on the defensive end, so I pair him up with that particular 8 year old, because I know his style, and he will force the older boy to adjust his style, and be more agile and move around more, rather than just using his weight advantage to intimidate and otherwise chase around all the other students.

From his perspective, all he can see is that he spars a kid that he can't beat. And many children in sparring, at least at this age, arent really as concerned about improving their sparring technique as much as they are about having fun, or winning the match. I'd love to have the kind of students someone mentioned above, the kind of students that are so dedicated to sparing that they only want to spar higher ranking students to improver their skill, but i think those kind of dedicated students at this age are few and far between.

I think sparring can teach many things to children that can be good lessons, such as control, tactics and so on. It can also teach them about what its like to lose a match, to not have everything go your way all the time, which is a good "life" lesson, but a lesson I think many young children are not ready for.

Sparring is part of my regualar curriculum, and beginning at yellow belt, they must spar another student for their belt tests. Of course, for their test, no matter how well they spar, as long as they do not give up, and perform the footwork skills and kicking combinations they learned for their rank in the sparring match during their test, they will pass the test regardless of whether they actually score a point or not. My personal opinion, is to give them the basics and tools they need for sparring, and let them take it from there. Some will naturally be more interested in it than others, but i dont think it is a good idea to try to force a young child to be competitive, and hold them back if they do not excel at it as well as others.

Todd

[Eliz]

.... So the older boy, because he is older, heavier, and alot stronger, can't really do anything, because if he actually hit the boy like he could, he would hurt him. So because of this, all he can really do is be on the defensive, and block and evade.

I think you have put a lot of thought and care into your students and it sounds as though you are running a good program. In my humble opinion, I feel sorry for this 12 year old. I don't think what is happening to him is right. He should be allowed to offensively participate more.

Just my .02

[Gene Williams]

I only took 12 and up, but they didn't spar until they were brown belt, and then only with me or other seniors. We didn't do tournaments after about 1984 (when I became totally disgusted with tournaments and competition karate), so I made most everybody wait until brown belt. That way they at least had good habits and fundamentals.

[coralreefer]

I think you have put a lot of thought and care into your students and it sounds as though you are running a good program. In my humble opinion, I feel sorry for this 12 year old. I don't think what is happening to him is right. He should be allowed to offensively participate more.

Just my .02


I understand your point. I agree and also feel a little bit sorry for him. But he chose to participate in that time slot, and therefore, he is the oldest and quite a bit larger than the rest of the students in that class. I invited him to come to the next class, where the students are middle school students and the same size (actually bigger), but he wished to remaim in the class with the younger students. It's not that I dont allow him to participate and be offensive, as much as it is that he understands that he has to control his techniques, and because the smaller boy comes at him with so such aggressivness, he understands that he can't do much without hurting the boy.

At his age, I appreciate more that he knows he has the power advantage, and doesnt get frustrated and hurt the boy.

I can understand him somewhat, as back in America, I was in a similar position. There was a girl at my dojang, lower ranked than me. She was a few years older, but we had a very friendly relationship. She enjoyed sparring alot, and we used to play spar quite a bit, when i would come in, and she would always want to spar with me, just light contact with no pads. She had a very aggressive nature too, and didnt really have any other strategy other that charging in with a barrage of kicks. Many times in the beginning, i just caught her with a kick to the face, didnt mean to touch her, but basically because of her style, and lack of training, she more or less ran into my kicks rather that me actually trying to kick her. She would do some dramatic fall, and procede to tell everyone around the school that I "knocked her out" While she was just playing, and teasing me with that (Todd knocked me out routine), I grew to hate sparring with her. Because of her style, and my needing to control myself, all i could do was back away from her. I could have easily scored every time, but because of my higher skill, and the fact I could hurt her(i broke her arm once before on a front leg roundhouse i barely threw that she blocked by using the opposite arm) I thought it was best to just retreat, rather than take the chance of kicking at her and her hurting herself on my foot.

I think this older boy understands the same thing. He knows he is alot stronger, and to kick at head level of all the students in the class is his chest level, so on that particular 8 year old, he is observing control, and I really think that shows his maturity, in that he chooses to back away and be scored on rather than risk hurting the smaller boy and satisfying his ego.


Todd

[karatekitty]

I haven't a real theory on sparring and kids. I am not well versed as so many of the instructors are here. However, I have begun teaching the mini dragons at our dojo. I am more concerned with teaching them to focus, follow the rules and remembering through repetition some basic techniques. I only have two students at this time. Every friday we have fight night, we suggest all try it. But we make it a requirement to do at least a few fight nights between testings after your a yellow belt. 80% of our students love it. 20% percent are afraid. These are the adults that are usually in thier late 20's or 30's. Actually I was so afraid of sparring that I would avoid it at all costs.
Recently at one of our fight nights,my two little students(3 years old and 4 years old girls) grabbed gear, got it on and hit the floor with the bigger kids. They were totally uninhibited, no fear, ready to rock and roll. They had a blast! I was envious of them. They also made me proud, because when I stood on the side line coaching them a little bit, they listened!

Make it fun, teach them well, and as they progress in thier martial arts careers, they will have no fear of sparring. They might have the nervous energy that all competitors have, but they will have confidence.

I wished that when I was younger I had that chance to develope my confidence. It is embarassing to be an adult and hide in the changing room instead of sparring. Although I haven't done that since I was a green belt. :karate:

Thats my two cents, thank you

[Abbax8]

In judo we call it randori and the kids love it. For sparring to be positive and useful, the instructor simply needs to keep control of the class and be alert for any student who may acting badly.

Jeff, if you were looking for "sparring is BAD, teaches young kids violence, etc. " you won't get it from me. I will say that I do remember reading on the net once about a judo school that DID NOT allow students to complete a throw. They did not want anybody to get hurt. The reaction of all the judokas were- that's not judo!!!

Peace

Dennis

[karatekitty]

I think any true Martial artist that has been training seriously, or any instructor that takes Martial Arts serious will always see the benefit of sparring and kids.

MY GIRLS LOVE .. two littel 3 years can, with control, kick some little martial arts butt and laugh about.

[jjaje]

Dennis,

I wasn't looking for any response in particular, good or bad. I had hoped ot bring a little more activity and conversation to this section. Responses have been great.

I thought it interesting that this studio was using "No Sparring" as a major selling point in its ad. I wonder how many parents read that and are swayed by it.

[Jeff Burger]

I thought it interesting that this studio was using "No Sparring" as a major selling point in its ad. I wonder how many parents read that and are swayed by it.

Probably alot. Parents think of all the discipline, character building and exercise but dont want their child "fighting".

I have had several adults come in and before signing up explicitly say they do not want to spar.
However its usually not long before they are sparring and loving it. They just had this idea that it was all pain and bruises and its not. Its pain, bruises and FUN.