prices too high? [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

Jeff Burger

04-26-2002, 10:17

Supply and demand.
How good is the teacher, what else is available in the area, how much interest is there in the area all play a role in if its a fair price or not.
I know schools charging $75 a month for 1 day a week and and then charge big bucks for promotions and kill their students on every little corner(patches,drinks.....).

Go to China...if your in a big city they know foreigners will pay alot to learn...if your out in the country you can ger private lessons for $1 USD an hour because no one has extra income to spend learning martial arts.

I ran into Zhou Hung Ke..he was national champ in China for whip chain and rope dart years ago. But at the time I meet him he was homeless and jobless only finding part time labor jobs occasionally and only getting paid in food and temporary roof over his head.
Now he is connected with a couple of large schools and can sell his profession.

I used to charge $25 for privates but that time filled up so I went to $35...when that filled I went to $50.
But for my students who show real desire its free.
A famous teacher here in Boston charges $75 an hour to just stand there and meditate.

Its important to see some places are martial arts schools and some are martial arts bussinesses. Some of the bussinesses go to the point of actually performing a desservice to the student just to keep them coming and paying.

JMB

notoriousBLT

10-27-2002, 15:13

I don't know if I'm allowed to post here but

The school that I go to charges 124 a month. I get 1 private lesson every week and there are group classes everyday except sunday. There is a white sash class, yellow sash class, and intermediate classes. You are allowed to come whenever you want and ask for help or tips from any teacher that is free. I don't know how other schools charge but I THINK it is expensive. I don't know but 124 is alot of money.

acecchetto

10-27-2002, 17:22

At my dojo, my instructor charges $45/ month, plus anytime that I want a private leason, we just go in. Promotional is $25, that includes the belt. When we moved to our new dojo, it was costing more in rent, but he refused to change the price, and said he doesn't want to make money from teaching... he just wants to break even.

Abbax8

10-27-2002, 18:51

I teach at school that is registered as a non-profit. We offer Judo, TKD, Aikido, Muay Thai, Jujutsu, as well as Cardio Kickboxing. Fees are $30.00 per month for first person in family, $15.00 for second and $10.00 for third. The most any family pays is $55.00 per month. All instructors teach for free. Most of the people who attend or who have kids in class feel it is a bargain. The question of how much is MA training worth is a good one. I have been studying judo for 35 years and have been teaching it for over 30 years. I began as an assistant instructor and now teach on my own. Teachers in schools with a masters degree (thats 6 years of study) and 30 years teaching experiance make between $40,000 and $100,000 a year depending on the school district. A doctor with 8 to 10 years of study charges between $75.00 and $500.00 per hour. Personnel fitness consultants get $50.00 per hour or more, most have less than 2 years of training. I guess my feelings are a good MA instructor is priceless as are good people in other disciplines. I don't teach MA as a business now, although for a while I tried. Just my thoughts.

Peace
Dennis

Jen

10-27-2002, 20:34

Where I train, the monthly fee if you sign up for 3 months at time is $55. It just went up this month from $50. This is the price for an adult. I think the kids price is $5 a month higher, as they require more supervision. If you sign up just one month at a time, it is $60, 6 months, $50, and 1 year $45. There is also a plan called black belt club where, you pay only a certain amount of money to train until you get your black belt, no matter if it takes you 3 years, or 30 years. I'm not exactly sure how this plan works, but I know you pay a monthly fee for a certain amount of time ( I think you pay for the minimum time in training), and then stop paying. When you get your black belt, you can get the same type of thing for your second dan and so on. There are also family discounts, which I think for each person in your family attending the fee is $5 less then the previous person. EX- 2 people for 3 months, 1st would be $55, second $50, and if there were a third they would be $45. Testing is $35 for the first half of the tests, I guess since you don't spend as much time at your test, and $45 for the second half of the tests, when more requirements are added. There are classes everyday except for Sunday, unless cancelled because we are supposed to attend another event. Since we are in a gym (but not owned by them), the dojang is open for our use any hours that the gym is open. We don't have private lessons really, but students can always stay after or come in early. There are also morning and afternoon classes which are relatively empty, usually less then 5 people, and the Friday night adult classes rarely see more then 10 people.
We are the lowest priced martial arts school in the area, so I do not feel like I am paying too much. I don't have a problem with someone making a living teaching if they are able to keep costs reasonable. If you have to charge extreme amounts of money, then perhaps you should seek a second job to supplement your income.
I also took kendo for a little bit, where the cost was $96 for an 8 week session. I thought it was high, but I did it anyway. I actually got a 10% student discount, and since it was being run out of my mom's friend's Yoga studio, I was supposed to get a further discount. I also brought in half the class. Needless to say, I never got the rest of my discount. I ended up attending 5 of the 8 classes. Another of my friends had to go away, but planned to come back for the days the classes were scheduled. Classes changed, and she missed 4. I was told I would receive a refund for my missed classes, that I am still waiting for 6 weeks later. What angered me was that I was only told after signing up that the instructor also teaches through the next township over's parks department for less then half the price I paid. I found the instruction to be poor quality and never bothered going over there. I found it hard not to laugh during classes as he told us about being inducted into the martial arts hall of fame for suckers.
I like the dojang I go to because well, I am a highschool student, and if my parents made me pay, I could afford to go there with the income I could make from a parttime job. If I could afford to go there on a mcdonalds type job, then for 90% of the people the area, this would be something they could afford.

Mandeigh Wells

01-06-2003, 16:40

Its interesting that what has come across in this discussion is the difference between cost and value for money.

Notorious BLT said
The school that I go to charges 124 a month. I get 1 private lesson every week and there are group classes everyday except sunday. There is a white sash class, yellow sash class, and intermediate classes. You are allowed to come whenever you want and ask for help or tips from any teacher that is free. I don't know how other schools charge but I THINK it is expensive. I don't know but 124 is alot of money. I am assuming you are talking dollars? thats about 77 quid a month...yes I agree thats a lot of cash but a private lesson a week and you can train everyday, if you balance it oout its maybe not as much as it first seems...but if you haven't got the money you haven't got it....I understand that. But as Abbax explained based on quality and years of experience, maybe martial arts teachers should be able to earn more.

Mandeigh

John Bennett

01-07-2003, 08:37

Jeff Burger

01-08-2003, 08:32

AMEN!!!!!!!

H@pkid0ist

01-15-2003, 12:20

This almost goes with the thread about is making a profit a crime. I believe that in this aspect that there is nothing wrong with trying to make your living as a full time owner/instructor. Hell that is what I am trying to get started now. If I gota bust my rump for the rest of my life to make a living then It might as well be at something I love doing. What matters most about a school is balance. Don't treat it to much like a business, and don't neglect the business. Give your students what you advertise. As far as how much is to much, well that is actually set by the consumer. If you do not use the services becouse they are to high then they will be changed to suit the market. As well it is set by the competition. You are not going to charge $100 a month for the exact same thing the guy 15 min away from you charges $55 a month for. But like I said, If the consumer is willing to pay that rate then that will become the acceptable rate, and be considered fair and reasonable.
At my Dojang we go by contract periods of Monthly, 3 months, 6 months, 18 months, and 36 months. The prices range from 95 monthly to 55 for 36 months. To boot we have an introductory special 10 Weeks and a free uniform for $99. This is just enough time for anyone to realize if they like the school or the system. THere is no catch after the 10 weeks either, no strings attached. If you decide that this is for me then choose a contract period and you are good to go. As far as our hours, we open at 10 am, close from 12-2 for lunch and are open until 9 pm Mon - Fri and 10-12 on Sat. Reguardless of if you are on the 10 week special or a regular contract, you train as many days a week as you want, as many hours a day as you want. You set your own schedule. We try and tapper the trainning to the individual from the begining. You progress at your own pace, not the pace of a whole group or any other individual. We have no set testing dates except for BB. You test when you are ready. Its not about how many years you have paid your dues, its about what you put into it, and how good you are at it. We have no Katas, and our students usually put in as much in one day that many other Schools students put in, in a week and 1/2. So they progress accordingly. We have no trophies in the Dojang becouse thats not what we are all about. Now if they want to compete on their own we will give them our blessings and cheer for them, but its not a school event. This is how we are and our students love it. Those that pay 95 a month still feel that it is worth the price. We offer a lot to our students, and as far as buisness goes, we charge accordingly.

One thing the anti-profit MAists need to keep in mind is that MA profit is not a new business or concept. The old Masters and those before them all on down the line ran profitable schools, and thats just the way it has always been. Not good not bad, just the way it is.

Abbax8

01-15-2003, 16:08

Daniel,
in your state is a 36 month contract legal. Many states have a law the only allows 6 months. This came about because of people upset with health club contracts. Just curious.

Peace
Dennis

H@pkid0ist

01-16-2003, 22:32

36 Month contracts are no problem here. But, We also give potential student a 2 1/2 month trial membership and free uniform for $99. This is more than enough time for them to figure out if they want to keep studying.

Jashan

02-22-2003, 19:50

The most expensive school in my area is a Brazilian jj / Vale Tudo school... If you sign up for a full YEAR, it's $89/month. Month to month, it's $120. Around here that is *high*. Plus a $150-ish fee the first month which covers your uniform, some association dues, and testing fees for the period you're enrolled. They bill themselves as the "elite martial arts school." I'm definitely not rich enough to be elite.

I've school I'm currently at is $70 if you pay month by month. $60 if you go in 3 month blocks. not sure if there's a discount for longer terms. However, the belt fees (IMO) are too high -- $50 per test, even for a stripe, from yellow to orange... then $55, $60, $65, etc. $200 for your blackbelt.

By contrast, another school (which is very small and struggling for students -- the instructor seems good, so I'm not sure if it's just bad luck or if he teaches badly) costs about $50/month but charges no belt fees at all until you get to blackbelt.

A third school I've looked at here [I'm thinking of switching styles, can you tell?] is $40/month, plus $45 the first month for uniform and association dues... $20 per belt test, or $15 if you pay in advance for it.

shortstick

02-22-2003, 22:20

Ya, its all about the value you feel you are getting, and what the market is willing to pay. Think about how people buy cars, some just want 4 wheels, and want to pay as little as they can....for others , they are willing to pay big bucks because they may be into the make of the car, the style, for work and so on. In my town there are 5 schools within about a 6 block area. 2 charge $150.00 per month for blackbelt classes!? In some cases I think people do not really shop around, they may spend years at one place and not know that they are really missing out, and getting gouged, because they have not compared.

Rich

03-05-2003, 05:14

Hi, great thread!

Well, I've been surprised by some of the prices. I'm training at the Kodokan in Japan and I think the prices are great considering that this is the centre for World Judo. Here are the prices for joining the beginners class.

1 There is a one-off joining fee of 6000 yen (about $50 I think)
2 Monthly fee of 5000 yen (about $38)
3 Monthly grading is 200 yen (about $2)

For that you get

1 Training 6 days a week mon - fri. Classes are 1 1/2 hours long.
2 Gym
3 Study room with TV's and videos
4 Museum
5 Kitchen where you can make your own food
6 Shop

Accommodation is also available at differing rates depending on the room.

I think that prices really vary from place to place. From the sound of it, it may be worth taking a holiday abroad and training in China/Japan/Korea/Thailand depending on your MA.

I'm having a great time here in Japan, especially when the National squads come to train here!

Richard.

Jeannette

03-18-2003, 14:47

I have a friend that easily paid $75.00 on a pair of jeans the other day. Also, I've seen a budy of mine spend $100.00 on four music cd's and video games. Some people spend thousands of dollars on a piece of blown glass "art" for their living room. And what about those new flat screen t.v's for the entertainment room???
What is so ironic about this, is that these same people are complaining about a reasonable monthly martial art fee!

you can't put a price on learning something that has life value.

This is where you decide how serious you are about your martial art.

tkdcanada

03-18-2003, 16:39

First of all, those items that people are willing to pay so much for are usually one time purchases or at the very least not so frequent purchases. Also, you obviously can put a price on learning something that has a lifetime value - the people who run the MA schools do it. I understand what you are saying, but the issue is not always so simple. I myself have no qualms about the fee that I am paying - I pay $60.00 every month (a lump sum for myself and my two children) This includes classes three times a week and on two of those days our classes run from two to three hours - so we get anywhere from 5 to 7 hours a week training. We are very serious about our training but I also have to stay in the real world. If I had to pay a much higher amount, I couldn't do it no matter how serious I was about it! What is considered reasonable is really relative to many factors and not just the opinion of the person charging the fees. You can't blame a person for trying to get the best possible value when it comes to their training and for trying to stay away from those who overcharge while claiming to offer superior training. (I understand the opposite occurs too - people undercharging and not offering quality training, but that's where following your gut instinct comes in handy). Actually, an instructor with his own school who really loves his art is probably not in it so much for the money and his rates will likely be more reasonable. It's sometimes useful to look at it from the point of view of the student paying.

Mandeigh Wells

03-18-2003, 16:55

very well put Jeannette!

One of the major problems in the taiji world is that there is so much rubbish taiji out there and community centres and the like 'give it away'. Well It has cost me many years and ££££'s to study and I am teaching for a living....not out of some need to educate the masses in taiji but to give those who are genuine about studying a chance to learn correctly. I have lost students to the cheap and cheerful taiji dance classes and thats fine......I know my value and it is important that students have some idea of that too. Also I have made allowences for genuine students when it comes to payment. But I am not a registered charity and I need to make a living.

Mandeigh

Jeannette

03-23-2003, 18:47

Thanks Mandeigh!

Seven years ago when I first started training I paid 85.00 american per month!
I didn't make that much money at the time, and I even had to think about it an entire year before I started training. I figured, if I can go out to Sushi with my friends, buy after drinks, dancing at the discos all in one evening (spending at least 100.00) I certainly can work a little bit harder and come up with the extra 85.00. Then, I stopped spending money on crap I didn't "need", in order to save
more money. And you know what? I NEVER missed a class! I am one dedicated student!

Michleine, in the real world, I'm not sure what it's like in the land of "oat and aboat", some teachers DO have to make a living, pay the bills, and feed their children. In reality, some people are cheap, and are "oat" to look for deals so they can continue to purchase their "one-time" materialistic purchases, and they are too lazy to work a few more hours so they can pay their monthly training fees.

Here's a good example of someone trying to get out of paying dojo fees:

A student of mine tried to weezle out of paying his fees. He always complained of how broke he was. So, feeling sorry for him, I tried to compromise and offered an exchange program. He could have cleaned and moped the dojo and the bathroom only four hours a week. Instead, he decided that he can make more money at his job and rather pay the monthly fee. My offer still stands for students who are unable to pay.

Jeff Burger

03-23-2003, 18:53

I just checked out some schools for a fnend of mine in her area for her son.

How does $150 for 10 classes sound? Pretty bad right....want the worse part???? Thats for a half hour class and does include promotions.

There excuse...I mean REASON is that they are "THE BEST"

Jeff

Jeannette

03-23-2003, 19:03

That is pretty high, however the kid doesn't have to take it. Also, it can be a weeding out process. Perhaps the teacher isn't that interested in having a lot of students?

tkdcanada

03-23-2003, 20:41

Jeanette,

It would be nice if you tried to make our comments a little less concescending :anger:

First of all, I DO live in the real world. I am 32 years old, not an kid who has no concept of the value of money. I just finished three years of university after having stayed home for eight years to raise my two children and living on my husband's salary - so I know what the "real world" is like. Now I am paying student loans, working on an on-call basis and I still have one year of university left to complete. I do not make those one-time purchases, nor do I go out drinking and dancing or eat out in restaurants - I keep my purse strings very tight! If training fees were so high that I could not somehow fit them into my budget, I would be very heart-broken and disappointed since I do realize how priceless ithe training is. It is for that reason that school owners should do their best to make the fees reasonable and attainable for the regular 'Joe' who is doing everything possible to include such a meaningful activity into his life. Just claiming to be 'the best' should in no way entitle someone to charge phenominal fees. In my opinion such a person probably just has a very bloated head and is just hurting himself by making sure the majority of people with modest incomes cannot afford his services. From all of the posts that I have read and research that I have done about what defines quality training, I am sure that I have it and I still have very reasonable fees. There is a fine line between 'giving it away' and 'claiming to sell gold' and it's to school owner's benefit to find that line. And as far as your comment about what it's like in the land of 'oat and aboat', I'm assuming it was meant as some kind of derogatory comment and although I'm not sure exactly what it meant, I didn't appreciate it at all. If it wasn't such a comment, my apologies. I was merely trying to show the picture from the point of view of a regular 'joe' struggling to do the best with what's available to him. Not everyone looking for better and more reasonable training rates is lazy, no good and looking for a handout. :rolleyes:
You are right, it is the school owner's perogative - but if you're going to offer a service it is only good business sense to make sure that the public can afford the service - unless, of course you consider it to be a service that should be available only to the elite :rolleyes:

fightgrrl

03-24-2003, 08:53

I liked Jeannette's comment on sacrifice...students who really want it will usually find a way to pay...as with your friend, we have given the 'work it off' option...our fees slide all the way down to $0..its disappointing when you give someone that break and they abuse it...we have a brother and sister who have gotten free classes all year..they have missed a number of team events and competed for free at a number of tournaments...they didn't show up for something this weekend and that was the last straw...they have been with us for under a year and are definitely getting a lot from the program, they are at the school from 4-7PM 4 days a week, on the days where there is a class between their 2 classes(they don't do wushu or chinese weapons) we make sure they get their homework done too.
A little participation is a small price to pay, especially if you are 10 years old and don't have any heavy obligations. (wish i could bill them for the almost $1500 they have gotten!)

Their Mom has cried poverty when it comes to Karate but pays $20 a day each for babysitting(19 yr old sitter parks them in front of TV) during school vacations. She didn't send them to Karate Kamp in Feb. ($65 week 10A-7PM for them) because we told her she'd have to pay, instead she paid $200 to her 10-3 babysitter...
what kind of smart financial decision is that?

Because we are in the city many of our expenses (rent!) are higher, but we still keep our regular tuition at or below the rate of most area schools. We offer assistance to any student who asks and all competition is free for the students who participate in team events. It burns me when someone treats it like a free babysitting service....

tkdcanada

03-24-2003, 09:12

I don't dispute that there are people out there who will try to take advantage. My point simply was that prices should be reasonable. If prices are reasonable, then the choice is left to the individual whether they can afford it or not. I don't think that a school owner is obligated to do more than that (I don't even think the 'work it off' option' should even be an option unless the school owner really doesn't mind). My rates are very reasonable but if I, for some reason ran into trouble paying them, I would never think of making it my instructor's problem. My issue was more with the way Jeanette came across - very judgemental and closed minded. As I've said: There is a difference between making rates reasonable and labelling people lazy because they are unable to somehow make the extra money to pay sky high rates. (Granted those people do exist, I'll admit, but it's dangerous and unfair to assume that everyone who is looking for a reasonable rate is like that - sometimes it just may be that the rates ARE unreasonable). There is a bottom to the barrel no matter how you look at it. Very few people experience a barrel without a bottom. I'm only trying to paint an objective picture which can show ALL sides and I don't think Jeanette was doing that. :(

Jeff Burger

03-24-2003, 11:56

If the price is too high they can chose not to go...thas true...for some.

What gets me is there alot of kidso out there who cant choose because they dont have any money and or their parents jsut dont do things for them.

These high price peopel are taking advantage and usually focusing on kids (they are easy to manipulate and parents will give into them).

A ceratin portion of being a martial arts teacher was to benefit the community. There is a section here on Budoseek called Budo citizen. I aslo remember Kimpatsu wrote somewhere that his school teaches they should half for themselves and half for others.

It pains me to see martial arts exploted just as a $$$ venture.

BTW those 2 kids that Fightgrrl mentioned are going to get the word today...no more free classes. They have not lived up to their obligation in helping the school.
Maybe some think that will be a hard lesson...well good. Better to learn it in a low consequence setting like martial arts classes then in more important things in life...like job and family.

I think the Do aspects of martial arts is a great thing especially for kids. My goal is not to turn kids into wrecking machines, but to use martial arts to build body, mind and spirit. The dojo is a little world in and of itself where alot of hard lessons can be learned in a low consequence environment.

Spread that tuff love.

Jeff

tkdcanada

03-24-2003, 13:26

Thank you Jeff! I agree wholeheartedly!

Part of being involved in martial arts is to find yourself as a person and grow. Giving back is part of it. (And also teaching the students to give back also by expecting them to play an active role in their school's community). If the primary motivation is money, then sooner or later the more philosophical aspects of the training, such as the 'Do' aspect that Jeff mentioned will become lost in the interest of profit. It's absolutely right that the Dojo (or Dojang) is a little world in and of itself and it's a world that my kids and I look forward to visiting three times a week and one that we have learned so much from and have so much yet to learn (and it's very much because of the emphasis on that "Do" aspect as well as the physical training). If my instructor were simply in it for the money, I seriously doubt that I would feel this way. It affects the whole atmosphere of the school.

BTW Jeff, I do think that's a good move. I'm all for learning tough lessons early in life (I wouldn't have it any other way for my own kids) and there's absolutely nothing wrong with expecting them to do their part. Things always work better when they go BOTH WAYS and obviously this was a one way deal for them. It's those tough lessons that inspire personal growth.

Jeannette

03-24-2003, 14:16

Lighten up canada, I'm not as bad as you think. I have a couple of students that help me run my jewelry business. They can't afford to pay for training and are going to school working towards their masters. They are so dedicated and their heart is in training, that we've worked it out where they help me a few extra hours a week in exchange for free training. My point is, that I really haven't met a teacher who is not willing to work it out with their students as fightgirl has mentioned. I really like the idea of starting to teach a childrens class, since I have a child myself. Perhaps, start a "teen-at-risk" program where they do so many hours of homework in the dojo with tutors, then train for 2-3 hours (for free). I've been thinking about this program for a while, yet I run my own business and find it hard to do it alone since the other teachers are also full time workers. (By the way, now we only charge 40 dollars a month!)

My point again, people that complain about fees certainly have to sacrifise some things by priortizing. (with the rare exception of course!) Perhaps, they may have to wait a year or two before they can train? This is respected.

tkdcanada

03-24-2003, 19:01

"lighten up canada, I'm not as bad as you think...."

Maybe not but I don't know you and that's how you come across in a lot of your comments.

No problem Jeannette but I still maintain that we're not as rare as you think. (Us people who live week to week and honestly do not spend any money on extras). My point was simply that sometimes the price actually ARE too high and that there's really no excuse for it. Anyway, I think we both made our points and should just agree to disagree.

I still want to know what that "oat and aboat" comment was all about though. Is it some kind of joke towards canadians and the way we talk? :confused: Maybe it wasn't derogatory at all but that's sure how it came across. :(

Jeff Burger

03-24-2003, 20:49

The 2 students I mentioned have miised several team things and have been warned their scholarship is in jeapordy.

Today I told them they have lost part of their scholarship.
They will still pay less than half price.
$65 a month for both of them (not a piece)that includes Karate level 1 & 2 grappling, weapons and sparring classes...that adds up to 9 classes a week.

Still a good deal and they will stil have to do some extra team stuff.
Its their way of working it off.

Jeff

tkdcanada

03-24-2003, 21:12

A good deal indeed! And if they don't jump on it and ensure they don't lose it by pitching in and becoming part of the team, then they really don't deserve it and probably aren't that interested anyway. Hopefully they see the value in your generosity and make the best of it!

Sean Reilly

03-25-2003, 05:14

Less than a year ago I decided to get back into martial arts after a few years out of it. Once I had decided which art to take on I then proceeded to look at schools & costs.

I went with a BJJ club and found that most decent BJJ schools in Australia charge between AUS$80 & $100 per month for about 12 classes per week.

I now am relocating to the US and find myself in the same position but, CRICKEY! (yeah...right, we all talk like that Down Under) in the States most BJJ clubs of similar quality & quantity charge at least US$150 per month.

When you consider that the Aussie Dollar is currently about 56 cents to the US Dollar that really smarts.

So I figure that the cost of MA's like most things is driven purely by what the market will accept and no more.

Cheers

Sean

PS: Hey Jeanette..... enough of that "oat & aboat" stuff. I too am offended (Vancouver BC born & bred and proud of it.:p

Jeannette

03-25-2003, 13:02

Don't be offended Crickey! There's much to say about us fruits and nuts. Although, I am native of Peru! Us latinas have a fond way of insulting people, yet it is really meant to be taken as cute, not offensive. If you were to hear my heavy peruvian accent you'd know I was joking. Sorry if I offended you oat and aboats! You will take what you want to take when you read written words.

Good bye, from the Peruvian Nazi! (Ok? I insulted myself. Come on guys, don't take life so seriously! ha ha)

edited:
aaaaaah, I see I didn't give anyone a chance to make fun of me 'cause redwoods and the sea can be anywhere! Well, I gave you a hint, the state where you can find all the fruit and nuts, the state where you will find gold, the state that most everyone hates 'cause we are extremely arrogant, obnoxious, and tacky!.........

tkdcanada

03-25-2003, 17:13

Let me guess.....California

I agree we shouldn't always take life too seriously but however, there are certain social rules about talking to people and comments like that are generally only accepted from closer ties because they can be taken within the context of the relationship. You still haven't explained the comment :confused:

Mandeigh Wells

03-26-2003, 03:46

I am just interested to know what 'oat and aboat' is?:D

Mandeigh

Jeff Burger

03-26-2003, 06:43

Its Canadian accent / slang.

Whatchya crying aboat.

Jeff

Mandeigh Wells

03-26-2003, 15:59

Thanks Jeff......so all Canadians are Geordies then.....thats funny cause I thought they were all Scots....but then it would be oot and aboot.......:D

Mandeigh

Jeannette

03-26-2003, 17:02

ha ha, that's funny Mandeigh!

Jeannette

03-26-2003, 17:42

Here's a thought about living in the "real world".

Here we (postees) all are in nice lush countries that no matter how you look at it, even if you live with your parents mooching off them for free rent in order to pay off all those terrible loans that you were FORCED to take which I have no sympathy for, here I am thinking on my walk today about my family in Peru. A very poor country and you avoid the police as much as you can 'cause they may rob you of all your money. If I wanted to train in Peru in the small village I lived, I would have to travel many days and nights on the back of a chicken truck just to train. If I love it, I would make the time to somehow do it. I have a cousin that travels this way every month for his education. It's quite a normal thing to do in third world countries. My point is again, if a person has it in their heart to train or do anything they love no matter where you live in the world, they will come up with a way to do it. ( No matter what their income) From my experience, it is the people in "rich" countries who complain of such silly trite things as a dojo fee. And back at what I mentioned before, sacrifise some of your materialistic things, in order to gain a life value martial art.

Rich

03-27-2003, 05:10

Jeanette,

Thanks for that post. You hit the nail on the head. I totally agree with your sentiment. There are too many people who complain and not enough who actually get up and do something to help themselves.

If a Dojo offers to let you work at the Dojo and then train for free (as a number do from the sound of it) then anybody who complains about the price but refuses to work in lieu of payment has no right to complain.

Richard.

tkdcanada

03-27-2003, 19:40

We don't live in Peru, so to even bother comparing us to life in Peru is irrelevant. I'm sure we all realize how lucky we are to live in such a privileged state; the fact that some people mention that training prices seem a little too high (many times rightfully so) does not signify a "poor me" attitude but rather an initiative to make sure that a person received value for his money. Just because people in Peru and other third world countries have to sacrifice so much does that mean we should have to match that before we say anything? You're comparing apples with oranges. I completely agree with sacrifice to attain your goals, that's not my issue. And yes, people in "rich" countries have different complaints that people in "poor" countries - that's a fact of life; lifestyles are different and expectations are different. It's also funny that Dojo fees are silly when the consumer thinks they're too high but not so silly when the instructor is trying to justify their price. Then it's not so silly.

Also, I never said I was FORCED to take out loans, etc.. and am not looking for sympathy. I work hard for what I get and I earn it. Maybe I don't do quite as much as someone from Peru, but that's because I don't have to and I don't feel I need to feel guilty about that either. I'll do what I have to to attain my goals, but I will not let the price (money, emotional, physical etc..) be more than the value. There's nothing wrong with making sure it's a fair deal.

Jeannette

03-28-2003, 13:18

No, I am not saying that you have to match people in Peru by sacrifising the "same" as they do, and by all means it is good to enjoy the things that you have in your country. I was trying to offer a different perspective to make a point.
Sacrifise, in your own way. (Not riding on the back of a chicken truck!)

Many people pay outrageous college tuitions. Yet, if one really wants to get educated, no matter what the cost, they will come up with a way to do it. Education is very valuable, why would a martial art be any different?

So just the fact that one complains period tells me that their heart really isn't into it.

Again, this is where you decide how important your martial art is to you.

l

tkdcanada

03-28-2003, 14:59

Again, what justifies outrageous college tuitions. Really, nothing. The reason people pay them is because they are regulated or set by a "committee" so to speak, much larger than the individual which is impossible to fight. Martial Arts prices are regulated by conditions which can be more easily influenced by the regular consumer such as supply and demand, size of the community and just what the average person is willing to pay. It holds value only to a small percentage of people and therefore is much more "influenceable" by them. Martial arts schools are targetting a much smaller market and therefore must assure that their fees are fair and attainable or they will risk not bringing in students. Charging excessive fees is arrogant and arbitrary. Just the fact that someone complains does not necessarily mean that their heart isn't really into it (that's just YOUR opinion) - it could very well mean that something is genuinely wrong and needs to be changed. If no one ever took a stand against unfair situations, then nothing would ever get changed and the "little guy" would always get the short end of the stick. Again, there is nothing wrong with taking a stand and making sure that a person pays a fair price for what they get. Again, we should just agree to disagree. I am sticking to my convictions whether I stand alone in it or not. I believe I have a valid point. You're either the type who doesn't mind stepping on other people's toes for your own interests or the opposite. I'm the opposite and I would feel that way whether I was the consumer (such as I am now) or the instructor charging the fees.

Jeannette

03-28-2003, 19:31

No, again you are missing the point. (do I hear a barking poodle? Funny, I didn't know any poodles were in my neighborhood!)

It isn't the price that I am entirely talking about. You're reading into it black or white and not understanding that there are many colors. Instead of being on the defense, understand it's context.

By the way, stepping on toes is actually a good thing, it's how sneaky you can get in there with out the person knowing is key!

tkdcanada

03-30-2003, 08:36

I understand exactly what you're talking about, I just think you're viewing the issue too simplistically. Neither am I defensive (I don't have a problem in this respect myself, so I have nothing to be defensive about). I know there are many colors and that's actually what I've been trying to explain to you. You seem to be lumping everyone who complains about price or has a hard time paying into one big group of lazy, unwilling to help themselves people. I'm only trying to explain that that's not always the case. Also, you might think it's okay to step on toes but personally, I wouldn't want to have anything to do with anyone who would treat me this way (especially someone who would be sneaky about it) and I certainly would not do it to anyone - that's called taking advantange of people. And if you don't want to hear the poodle anymore then close your window!

Mandeigh Wells

03-30-2003, 12:40

Ladies.....settle...its obvious you both have equally valid although opposite opinions and perhaps it would be best just to agree to disagree...no?

Mandeigh

Jeannette

03-30-2003, 18:47

Yes, Mandeigh you're right and thanks!

by the way, I was refering to toe placement in a martial art point of view, not what Canada was "thinking" it was aboat....(yet, her response wasn't a surprise!)

I won't be going back on this particular discussion in order to let others respond to the original topic.

/Adios y pura vida!

tkdcanada

04-01-2003, 22:54

I have no problem agreeing to disagree but I can't let concescending comments go by. I'm done on this one.

Gae-Bek

04-02-2003, 11:39

Well, from what I can see, I've got probably the most-unique situation...

I teach Ji Do Kwan Taekwondo and Go Ju Ryu Karate at the University Of Wisconsin - Whitewater. We work-out 3 times per week (2-hours per class), and charge $15 (US) per semester. That's right, by us, fifteen bucks gets you 4 months (or about 96 hours of instruction)!

Of course, you also have to consider that we don't have any expenses, either. Our room-time is given to us by the University. We are a University Club Sport, which means that we are entitled to lots of other things, such as free liability insurance. And the Head Instructor and I certainly don't pay ourselves anything for
our time.

Any money that we do make goes back into the school in the form of new sparring gear, heavy bags, etc...

We do warn all of our new students though...that while you're here (in college) that there is no better time to start training, because out in the real world most places will charge at least $50 per month.

Aaron Ploetz, 2nd Dan
Assistant Instructor
UW-Whitewater Warhawk Karate Club

Jeannette

04-03-2003, 17:09

That's cool Aaron!!! Sounds like fun for you, too. Yeah, I also with two other teachers in my training group , occasionally visit as a guest instructor at the near by University to help the head teacher teach (volunteer) when he needs a night off, or sick. It's a pretty nice set up and I have full use of the pool area and other activities.

In the past 4 years of helping out at University, I've noticed a big difference with the dedication of the students that train with me off campus, then the students that train on campus. That is, it is "convenient" for students to have all these different options to "sign up" for as an elective, seem to not take training as serious. The constant rotation of new students always keep the level at pre-basic. (it's still fun!) Where as, the students that seek us out off campus find us somehow (we have no advertisement) are truely dedicated and have a different level of seriousness. These students off campus end up sticking with their training and we are able to take the level of training to higher levels, which is more beneficial for all of us! Though, don't get me wrong, I love occasionally teaching at the near by University. It allows me to show off my front hand springs and mean claw strikes as I take down! (I'm a monkey!) Which, by the way, is really not in our art to be a "show off". But, we have to focus more on "entertaining" the students doing these stunts in addition to the martial training in order to keep the students coming back.

Last quarter I convinced the head teacher to start charging a small fee. It used to be free, but I wanted to prove to him that he will see more dedicated students if they pay a "little" something and less traffic of students coming and going. And to my idea, he had a smaller class of students, but they were more dedicated! The small fee covers his gas expenses and a little money left over for a bite to eat. Interesting, eh???

Respectfully, and keep going! (training)

lgmack

02-28-2005, 04:55

My dojang is $69 for private class for about 1hr 1/2...... and month to month it's 149...better deal if you go to 3 month contract 6 month or 12 month the price gets lower monthly but you have to pay it all up front.. I'm in Los angeles...and it seems that all the schools around here go for that much...what do you guys think...too much?? or is it my location...?? my school is called beverly hills martial arts center...

lgmack

02-28-2005, 12:24

lgmack

03-16-2005, 01:53

can anyone put in some insight??

DragonMind

03-16-2005, 08:21

How many hours a month are you able to train? Take that figure and calculate the cost per hour. Compare that to other things equally important to you, e.g. music lessons, sports camp, lawyer or doctor visit - only you can determine how important MA practice is to you. You might find it is a terrific bargain or not worth the money. No one else can tell you what value to put on your training or whether those lessons are worth the money you spend.

jakmak52

03-16-2005, 09:56

I use to train 5 days a week, 2 hrs a night and 1 hour on Saturday. That comes to around 48 hrs a month. I payed 70.00 per month which came out to 1.50 an hour. I think that's a great deal. :D

nosh276

03-16-2005, 11:57

DragonMind

03-16-2005, 16:03

Brandon, people will find the money for things they want whether the economy is good or bad. I suspect that the $200 school didn't deliver what anyone considered $200 value. Using Jack's example of 48 hours/month training time, we're looking at over $250 if we assume each hour is only worth minimum wage! Granted that the average person trains more like 8-12 hours a month, their ROI is in the $17-24/hr range. A school needs to find a price that is justified (in the consumer's mind) by the quality and level of service given. To a student making $30K/year, paying out the equivalent of $48K/year is going to be a hard sell.

supernix

03-16-2005, 16:30

As my sensei would say. " I would train everyone for free if I didn't have to pay for all the stuff it takes to train"

Martial Arts is supposed to instill a concern and caring about our fellow men.
Therefore high fees show anything but concern for your fellow man and are the spirit of a person only looking to put a buck in his pocket and using martial arts as the vehicle to do it.

Now if the dojo were to charge a sliding scale based on the persons income then that represents a fair system for all concerned.

My best advise to anyone that meets up with those high priced in it for the money dojos would be to keep on trucking and let their low morality run them out of business. Find a teacher that is teaching to help others.

This whole talk of people sacraficing all. Come on get real. While it is true that you should be willing to put away the funds reasonably to fund your marital arts education it is ludicrous to expect people to sacrafice all.
You make it sound like crack ( if you like it enough you should be willing to do whatever to get it )

Martial Artist should have enough decency about them to not ask someone to sacrafice all for the sake of training. Martial arts is the thing that is supposed to help you have a normal life not the thing that helps keep you from one.

Sad to say but good teachers sometimes go bad and run their fees up to the point they run off good willing students that love to learn the martial arts.

kodanjaclay

03-17-2005, 05:00

Ok... one...

You need to fill out your profile accordingly. Your real name must be displayed. Please comply with the rules you agreed to.

two... EVERYONE has the right to make a living. What you consider a hobby, some consider a way to feed their families and pay their bills... including the expensive bills of running a school.

DragonMind

03-17-2005, 09:35

As my sensei would say. " I would train everyone for free if I didn't have to pay for all the stuff it takes to train"
Then your sensei is a business fool. Ask anyone who has ever offered training for free (not charity cases). Those are some of the worst students you'll ever get. If the training has no value to you (else why would you give it away for free), then why should it have any value to me? You'll find the most unmotivated, undisciplined, uninspired students you'll ever run across.

Martial Arts is supposed to instill a concern and caring about our fellow men.
Therefore high fees show anything but concern for your fellow man and are the spirit of a person only looking to put a buck in his pocket and using martial arts as the vehicle to do it.

Now if the dojo were to charge a sliding scale based on the persons income then that represents a fair system for all concerned.
So your doctor and lawyer are supposed to charge a sliding scale based on what you want to pay rather than get a reasonable return on all the time and money they spent achieving the level of skill that actually can help you and that you find valuable? Compare medical school to getting your 4th dan (which is when you'd really have the skills necessary to be a good teacher)? You'll find the time and degree of effort to be pretty comparable. You need to wake up that MA instruction is now, and ALWAYS HAS BEEN, a commercial venture. This means you charge what the market finds reasonable for the value you provide. This romantic notion that all MA teachers are some kind of altruistic humanitarians who teach pro bono because of their love of mankind is ridiculous. Yes, there are some hobbyists who do that, but don't expect all teachers to short-change their own families because you won't pay their fee. You probably can't afford Michael DeBakey or F. Lee Bailey either. Do you expect them to lower their fees?

As for sliding scales, they are a good idea for charities or social services, but a really stupid idea in business. The only thing they foster is resentment and ill will among your students. Why should I pay more for the same training as someone else just because my income is higher? You're not giving me the same value for my money as they are getting.

My best advise to anyone that meets up with those high priced in it for the money dojos would be to keep on trucking and let their low morality run them out of business. Find a teacher that is teaching to help others.
My advice is quit judging people's morality when you have no clue what you're talking about. If I have a student who's primary goal is the cheapest price, I tell them to keep on trucking. I have high moral standards and that includes providing honest value for the money I charge, and taking care of my family properly. Avoid a school that is only after your dollar, but the price point is not a reliable indication of that.

This whole talk of people sacraficing all. Come on get real. While it is true that you should be willing to put away the funds reasonably to fund your marital arts education it is ludicrous to expect people to sacrafice all.
You make it sound like crack ( if you like it enough you should be willing to do whatever to get it )
Ever see a ghetto kid with $200 Reeboks? Ever see someone put back the food so they could afford cigarettes? Ever see a college kid in a minimum wage job with a plasma TV? Wake up! People will find the money for the things they find valuable. Nobody is forcing them to take martial arts. If they find it valuable, they will find a way to afford it. If not, they'll defer until they can afford it or decide it really isn't that valuable to them. Either way, my fee is not based on the idea that everyone is entitled to MA training. It is still a luxury in this country. If you want free training, join the military. Even LEOs pay for their training (though I DO give them a discount to say thanks for the job they do).

Martial Artist should have enough decency about them to not ask someone to sacrafice all for the sake of training. Martial arts is the thing that is supposed to help you have a normal life not the thing that helps keep you from one.
Bull! We ask you to sacrifice blood, sweat and pain all the time. Nobody is asking for your everything (except maybe the IRS or a divorce lawyer). You come to us because we have something you want. If you can't afford the time, money, sweat and pain then go to someone cheaper. Just remember that you get what you pay for.

Sad to say but good teachers sometimes go bad and run their fees up to the point they run off good willing students that love to learn the martial arts.
Sad to say that we have to put up with whiny wanna-be's that aren't willing to give what it takes to learn martial arts. But then, we know it isn't for everyone and we just keep looking for the ones who do have what it takes.

DominantPrincess

03-30-2005, 02:11

I think a lot of people feel martial arts class fees are unjustified because they fail to see many 'material' and 'tangible' benefits and expenses.

Please consider the cost of running a dojang (if one is not fortunate enough to score a teaching position at the local Y or educational institute).

The cheapest *decent* commercial property one could rent in our area is $1,500 a month including utilities, and it has the capacity of maybe 25 students... which I would estimate makes the max student enrollment of 50 students (if you're breaking them into two different classes a day).

Then there is organization and insurance fees, which averages to about $50 a year per student, plus an additional average of $500 per school.

Annual equipment costs maybe run about a grand.

Continued education per instructor can run anywhere from $300 to $3,000 depending upon how active the instructor is with seminars, personal certifications, and personal rank advancement.

So in my area, if you have a small school, with one instructor who is not very active with his or her personal training, with a full enrollment, it costs a minimum of $40 per student.

An instructor who is very active in continuing his/her training (which is the kind of instructor I personally prefer) is going to have even more expenses.

And I know a lot of people think instructors should teach for free, charging only what it costs them to teach, but is it really fair for us to expect someone to dedicate 20 hours (preparation, interaction, and actual teaching) a week or more, while working a full time job as well?

I know of one school in my area that operates on fees based to cover school expenses only, with volunteer instructors who pay for their own training (including monthy school tuition). Those instructors have full time jobs, end up burning out emotionally, physically, and financially within a year and as a result, that school has gone through so many instructors they lack student retention, and current instructors end up having to 'pay to teach' just to keep their doors open.

Considering the above estimated expenses, if an instructor attends very few training/advancement seminars, has a full enrollment and charges $50 a month, he/she only makes $10 a month per student, multiplied by 50 students, he/she only makes $125 for 20 hours of work each week... that's only $6.25 an hour... even if it is something they love doing, it is still *work*. And not only is it work, it is 'specialized' work, which required years of specialized training and cost a lot to attain.

Expertise costs money, and lots of it.

The average skilled labor rate in the U.S. (last time I checked) was $38.36 an hour. In the above circumstances, for an instructor to get paid what he/she is *truly worth* students should be charged around $80 a month. An instructor who is more active in his/her personal training, thus having more expenses and more to offer students, should charge even more than that.

I know $38.36 an hour may seem like a lot, but when you consider that a school owner gets paid a part time wage for a full time job, it really is not.

Also consider, that schools don't start out with a full enrollment, and many instructors are using the money earned to pay off debts they incurred during the first year or so of operation.

This has been a long post... thank you for your attention and patience.

Mandeigh Wells

03-30-2005, 03:13

very astute observations Naomi. I don't really have a clue about the figures you are quoting.....being in Bonnie Scotland and not the US, but the background costs you are talking about are spot on.

I remember the bad old days of 'paying to teach' and it is so demoralising. I have also found that when student pay a monthly fee (and we are probably the cheapest fee wise) they seem to tak the training a bit more seriously, attendence is more regular...of course we still have the 'thin' times at holiday periods, but this wouldn't happen if I put people on a standing order rather than just coming in with the pennies at the beginning of the month, but my biggest outgoing is the rent on the two venues I have. My insurance is paid monthly by standing order, so I don't get landed with a big bill, but we are desperately in need of some more equipment....but that comes out of my pocket, so its just going to have to wait!

DragonMind

03-30-2005, 13:15

Very good summary Naomi. I would suggest, however, that your figures are a bit off. If I may offer an alternative analysis.

First is enrollment. If your room can hold 25 people at one time, you have the potential of serving 250-300 active students during a week's timeframe - 4 independant classes offered 2-3x a week to 25 different people. A sample schedule on the low end might be something like Beginning Kids M-W, Advanced Kids T-R, Beginning Adults M-W, Advanced Adults T-R, Black Belt M-W, Open Sparring F, Advanced Sparring F, Cardio T-R noon, Saturday a couple specialty classes. The more hours per day you can use the more classes, of course.

I think your utilities costs are low, unless phone and Internet are included. You've also included nothing for marketing, staff and contingency.

When you consider that a successful school owner has not 1 but 3 jobs - martial artist, businessperson and instructor - you are no longer talking about skilled labor, you're in the realm of specialized professionals. Lawyers go for about $175/hr base rate as do family doctors and CPAs. Why should MA teachers settle for less?

One could argue that nobody needs a MA teacher like they would a lawyer or doctor but stop to consider the benefits provided. A lawyer may get you out of an assault charge, but the MA teacher was the one that enabled you to stay alive and defend yourself. A doctor may treat a malady, but the MA teacher helps you be healthy for life. Add in the discipline, self-confidence and other benefits of MA training and what is that worth to you?

Bottom line, we agree that good MA teachers are undervalued. The real problem is that we in the industry have brought this on ourselves by telling fairy stories about altruistic teachers, by berating anyone who makes a good living at it, and by not acting like professionals. Either we clean up the trash ourselves and preserve a free market approach or govt is going to step in and regulate us.

kozak

05-13-2005, 13:59

DragonMind

05-16-2005, 08:23

Eventhough I might run my school as a "hobby" (it isn't my bread-winner), I still view it as a real job. The school has to pay itslef and all expenses. Students might try to bargain a deal, but the bills and landlord come around, a school owner has no bargaining chips!
I've tried for years to come up with a good, non-pejorative term for schools that attempt just to cover costs. Club isn't quite right because it implies an informal structure that isn't always there. Non-profit has specific meaning under IRS rules. Until someone can suggest something better I've just started using hobby to imply that it is not a commercial venture intended to be someones profession. I don't mean it in any derogatory manner, nor do I wish to imply that it takes any less committment or effort. I know some "hobbyists" with the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) who put so much research and effort into their hobby, they have day jobs to get some rest. :D I won't even go into the folks in the 501st Squadron (Star Wars)...

pgsmith

05-24-2005, 10:37

Hey Barry,
Club is probably a much better word than hobby. Even though martial arts training is actually just a hobby for probably 99% of the folks that do it, most don't like to hear that. They feel that it denigrates the effort that is put into it. They don't like to think of themselves as pretty much the same as Star Wars fans, stamp collectors, and scrap book folks, although in the end it's pretty true.

Pretty much all martial artists like to think that the martial arts is a higher calling than other hobbies.

jakmak52

05-24-2005, 10:44

There's also the question on "hobbyist vs. "Artist". I consider myself an artist as opposed to a hobbyist when it comes to martial arts.

DragonMind

05-25-2005, 08:54

Dictionary has:

hobby(ist): An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.

art: 1. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
2. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
3. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.

artist: 1. One, such as a painter, sculptor, or writer, who is able by virtue of imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic value, especially in the fine arts.
2. A person whose work shows exceptional creative ability or skill: You are an artist in the kitchen.
3. One, such as an actor or singer, who works in the performing arts.
4. One who is adept at an activity, especially one involving trickery or deceit: a con artist.

club: A group of people organized for a common purpose, especially a group that meets regularly.

Paul, you're probably right when referring to the school. I guess my real problem is what to call the owner. Typically a club has no owner per se, though it frequently has officers or some form of governance. You can see why I've been calling those school owners who are not pursuing it as a career field hobbyists.

Jack, although the term "martial art" is in keeping with the definition of art, artist is a little harder to apply unless used to refer to the warrior craft of the professional soldier. As Paul says, we really are mostly hobbyists. Trying to call most of us artists is primarily ego gratification.

Dean F. Wilson

06-05-2005, 12:24

Here in Ireland, we usually pay by the class and not use the monthly fees system. At the moment I'm paying 20 Euro a week on martial arts, this being a one-hour class of WonHwaDo and a one-hour class of Haidong Gumdo. The actual price for WHD is 9 Euro per class (It's a little more expensive for adults), and Haidong Gumdo works in the following way:

Adults – 15 euro per session
Teens – 13 euro per session

For people studying WHD as well though, our Master gives a 2 Euro discount (and also offers discounts when multiple members of a family train):

Adults – 13 euro per session
Teens – 11 euro per session

So add that 11 Euro to the 9 Euro of WHD and you get 20 Euro per week (for me).

Some people complain about these fees, but I don't have a problem with them. I think they are reasonable enough, especially considering how expensive everything is in this country at the moment.

What do you think?

Haidong,
Dean.

jakmak52

06-05-2005, 12:28

KRJMAA

06-06-2005, 23:01

Per your provided definitions Barry I would say "artist" is very applicable and has nothing to do with ego gratification.
Definition 2. A person whose work shows exceptional creative ability or skill: You are an artist in the kitchen.
Someone who has "truly" studied for any length of time should have aquired some exceptional skill and had to use some creativity to make certain techniques work for them.
Definition 4. One who is adept at an activity, especially one involving trickery or deceit: a con artist.
Though this definition states "especially one involving tickery..." this is not a requirement of the person who is "adept at an activity." The example given is that of a "con artist." But if someone is adept at a martial activity. Then they are a martial artist.
I would also like to add that an artist can also be defined as "a person whose creative work shows sensitivity and imagination."
Art and craft are not the same thing. Art has some higher calling to it.
There is a saying one of my art professors used to say "All artist are craftsman but not craftsman are artist"

However, we are a applying hard and steadfast definitions to the words art and artist when that is impossible. What is art in the eyes of one person may not be art in the eyes of someone else. The same holds true for artist.

To paraphrase Lao Tzu "Art that can be defined is not Art"

DragonMind

06-07-2005, 07:59

Rene,

Of course this is very subjective grounds. Lots of people cook very well, but would hardly be considered culinary artists. While I would agree that there may be some who could be called artists, e.g. Dan Inosanto, Remy Presas, Hee Il Cho, Jhoon Rhee, Bong Soo Han, etc., the majority of people training never achieve the level of skill to be called an artist. Practitioner would probably be the best term.

KRJMAA

06-10-2005, 21:52

Barry

I agree whole heartedly. Practitioner is best for a majority of those who train in MA.

Now getting back to the the thread. You and I have shall we say varying views of the business side. But being a school owner I find it upsetting when a parent comes in with their child saying they can't afford this months tuition when their son/daughter is wearing a brand new pair of Jordan sneakers. Every once in awhile I see your point about contracts. Overall I do think that MA is cheap when compared to the cost of Little League and Pop Warner Football.

DragonMind

06-13-2005, 07:48

You and I have shall we say varying views of the business side. But being a school owner I find it upsetting when a parent comes in with their child saying they can't afford this months tuition when their son/daughter is wearing a brand new pair of Jordan sneakers. Every once in awhile I see your point about contracts. Overall I do think that MA is cheap when compared to the cost of Little League and Pop Warner Football.
It never hurts to get a different viewpoint. It makes me think outside my box or even to realize I am thinking in a box. Thanks.

twendkata71

07-08-2005, 16:45

It depends on what you think is too high. Do you think that your life is worth $70.00 a month? How much would you pay a psychologist per hour for mental help. Or a MD for medical help? The physical,mental and personal development that you can get from a good martial arts school is no less important than what you get from a MD or a psychologist. Martial arts instructors have the right to make a living teaching martial arts.
I admit that some instructors do charge astronomical prices,but if they are located in a high price neighborhood and they know their market then why not make good money for what they teach. If you want an instructor that charges low prices and teaches for the love of the arts,more than for the money, You will probably have to go to Okinawa,Korea, or a remote part of China or Japan. Most of the really good instructors in the United States are struggling to make a living charging $70.00 a month. Building rent,electricity,water, advertising,etc. I have been teaching for 20 years and it is no picnic. :bow:

tkdcanada

07-08-2005, 17:46

Timothy,

As per forum rules, please add your last name to your user profile. It must include your full first and last name. Thanks and welcome to Budoseek!

kozak

07-08-2005, 19:23

Yes, MA schools always have the image of being cheap.One should charge what one think they are worth/

Black Fox

07-10-2005, 23:20

i never owned a school - so disregard my comments freely.
i never wanted or desired much to teach, at a certain point you always get forced into it. i never owned my own buisness - so if you do not like my credentials - ignore me. sometimes an outsider can glean an observation few engadged heavily can dissemble for themselves.

when training with a school my bill always gets paid. a good school, and even if a little higher in price - the extra effort gets made - the money never becomes an issue. assistant instructor-ship in leu of pay helps though.

never much interested in teaching, personally. i do not think i carry the pateince for it or the showmanship of personality, yet. u get Alot of students come in and consider the instructors role that of drama moderator in their life - never possessed much a stomach for that, whenever i saw it or when the attempt got directed toward me. a 'master' of a school puts up w/ alot and often needs to carry traits above and beyond the norm.

i honor all of you regardless of personal outcomes and attempts.

i can tell u that from my experience - if u care about quality instruction and the effort gets made to produce quality practioners in the basic/mid ranges of skill for top-notch senior students in the top-ranks and encourage them to assist lower ranked or less experienced students to aquire more than mere proficency, then the high grade of skill becomes the draw for the school.

if your 'master' possesses only limited experience, this period can become short. the draw of the school then nessesarily changes. it becomes: 'what kind of drama or flash can i put in fron of the senior student body to convince them there exist more 'i can provide' - and that u know everything.' top students leave if they cannot get respect.

if the master actually knows a whole system along with accepting that they 'do not know everything' and strives personaly in their own training - rather than get caught up in politics, this can easily become a non-issue and thus through acceptance facilitate it's own cure. top students will love you for allowing the choice and tend to stick around accepting the responsibility you at that very moment you need them to accept.

when you go to a school, the childrens class may serve for it well in terms of allowing a (at least temporarily) steady income. a strong adult program acts well for the teacher to produce a stable base for skill and comradere. whenever the kid's program becomes the sole concern, belt testings and associated costs ect...you get away from what i think most instructors want. you get imbalance and a degeneration of ability in the school to maintain a high level of skill and it turns into babysitting or daycare. when that happens - the school eventualy soon fall's in attendance. the attitude becomes more liberal with the kids and their parents (afterall they pay the bill's) and even the skill in the kids program falls short even to the minimal standards allowed for children in western socioty.

eventual parent thinking: why should i go to karate1's school? when the children in karate 2's have better skill. if the reason the parent gives comes down to cost - then i do not think that they truely understand the value of this art and what it can do to produce children that can defend themselves if need arises - i would not want such people walking into my front door of my studio (if i got one going) and attempting to 'get a deal' - or expect an influence over what i do - especially with such a disregard for the art and their own children's saftey.

i never wittnessed a school degenerating toward a children oriented school base for money reasons survive the shift. the role-models become watered down everytime. focus gets lost. extra cash the first few years w/a child based method can sink years of hard work. going with a slightly less 'firecracker' accounting approach produces school durability at the sacrifice of the quick fix such a change may produce at first.

some schools last others do not. rarely does a martial artist get rich. even the very best masters supported by a small-town village atmosphere may require the second job to just keep the doors open - this i see for what i see it for - love. the adults produce skill and discipline and material. the children create a stream of income to allow the good owner to possibly survive on it. in this case, if the stream becomes stronger than the ground supporting it - the whole thing washes away.

take care

Jinzai

07-11-2005, 14:22

The beauty of martial art instruction in the US is that it is unregulated.

Consumers get the absolute best prices because the market dictates what exactly what the prices will be. Prices are not artificially set by some industry monopoly or some bought-n-paid-for government beaurocrat.

I agree with John. Also, when you look at what the cost of martial arts classes were in the 50's and 60's and calculate for inflation $80 - $150 per month is about right. For example, Chuck Sullivan of the IKCF says he paid $15 a month (as I recall - might be off a bit) when he started in 1959 under Ed Parker. With inflation, that's the equivalent of about $95 per month today.

I also read that the Tracy brothers were charging something like $40.00 a month back in the sixties. Today that's easily the equivalent of over $200.00 per month when you calculate for inflation.

I speak with school owners all the time who are struggling and ready to close their schools because they aren't making enough money. The majority of the time, they are charging 1960's rates in a 2005 economy. Unless an instructor is getting free rent, you just can't make the bills charging less than $100.00 a month and still expect to make a decent living.

You can argue the inflation thing all you want, but I'd challenge any of you who think that $100.00 is expensive to examine whether you'd be willing to work for 1960's wages in your chosen profession.

Anyway, I'd say anything under $125.00 a month is a good deal for competent instruction at a nicely equipped, full-time studio... however, I didn't always feel that way.

When I was a student (read: "...before I knew how much it costs to rent commercial space, advertise, pay utilities, buy insurance, and etc.") I thought paying more than $50.00 a month was steep. But then again back then I never thought about the fact that my instructors had bills to pay and mouths to feed, just like everyone else. Of course, since that time I've changed my tune, because I know from experience what it is like to struggle to make ends meet because you aren't charging enough to pay your bills.

So, if a student wants to train at a full-time school, with nice facilities, new equipment, and with an instructor who is the best he or she can be because they devote their full attention to making your learning experience a great one, then you should be willing to pay a fair fee for such an experience.

I hope this sheds some light on why your local studio is charging $100+ per month for lessons. I know it's hard to understand when you're the one paying tuition every month.

Best regards,

Jinzai

07-11-2005, 14:32

I just wanted to mention that Barry and Naomi made some very valid statements that I echoed in my response. Sorry if I just repeated your comments!

DragonMind

07-11-2005, 14:44

No apologies needed. Maybe if it gets said enough times, it will start to sink in.

For those who don't know him, Michael has one of the better books out there for starting and running a profitable school without becoming a McDojo. He has also recently started a members web site with his practical business advice. I highly recommend you check him out.

Jinzai

07-11-2005, 15:12

Thanks for the kind comments, Barry. I'm always pleased to hear that other instructors have gained benefit from my book and newsletter. Feel free to contact me anytime if I can be of help!

Best regards,

ling hou

08-09-2005, 04:26

What I look at is dollar per hour that I pay....or charge....how many classes can I go to during the month. So lets say you can train a maximum number of 34 hours a month.
And the monthly fee is $100. 34/100 = 2.94 an hour…..that is pretty great considering that a some other activities are very expensive….spinning classes between $5-7….aerobics classes are typically around $3 an hour. Then we also need to look at the value of what is being taught…..self-defense, discipline, fun, great workout and so on…. 2.94 an hour is a little low????? Then you can factor in the skill level of the instructor…..you can get your personal aerobics certification on-line for as low as $99.00. Yoga certification can be upwards of $1400 but a school in NY is charging $18 a class and for 5 classes $80, also the class is only one hour long.
The point I am trying to make is that instructors are charging way to low and students are paying way to low….. The value of what you sell is dictated by what people perceive that value to be….