True Shao Lin kung fu

[Kung Fu teacher]

I was talking to a shao Lin monk today who had studied in the Northen Shao Lin temple. he told me that alot of what passes off today s Shao Lin kung fu is not it has been modified to make it more flashy for the public etc. he even told me that the few monks who know the traditional forms do not let the public see these. I don't know if he is telling me all the truth but I wonder. I know however that some styles can trace their decendants back to shao Lin, like Hung gar and other styles of Kung Fu, but does anyone here want to comment on this monks statement.

Bruce

[jwinch2]

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/fanboy.htm

[Darrell]

There was a debate here a while ago about whether any kung fu can legitimately claim to be 'real' shao lin kung fu. Others who know far more than I participated, so I wouldn't deign to weigh in myself. At least on the history/details.

However, I have noticed that a lot of schools and styles go to great lengths to connect their lineage back to the temples. Some also go to extreme lengths to try and demonstrate that their own lineage is the 'truest' form of their particular style.

Frankly, I think a great deal of it is commercialization. Some people pick their style/school based on some connection to bygone times.

Personally, I think it's better to just find a school that works for you and you enjoy.

[TonyU]

Jeff Burger, where are you?

[Musubi Dojo]

Jeff Burger, where are you?

LOL.....or Sean Stoneheart.

How old are you really Kung Fu Teacher?
Old enough to drive a car?

[Kung Fu teacher]

I am 43 years old and have been involved in the martial arts since I was nineteen or so. That picture is a recent one of myself in the avatar.

Why do you ask the question? and how old are you

Bruce

[Cliff Hargrave]

Why do you ask the question? and how old are you

Bruce

Probably because you write like a 12 year old, both in grammar and content.

You have not written one single thing that can convince anyone that you actually study a martial art, or are an adult. You have posted several posts claiming expertise, now it is time to qualify yourself.

Please list your location, name of your school, your training years and instructors, rank, and website if applicable.

[Musubi Dojo]

***Cliff and I cross posted, sorry about your luck***


I am 43 years old and have been involved in the martial arts since I was nineteen or so. That picture is a recent one of myself in the avatar.

Why do you ask the question?

I ask because your posts sound like many of the 18 year old "masters" that come on this board wanting to enlighten us with their wisdom.

Their wisdon is usually ridiculous theories that would get a person killed in a violent confrontation. In fact every post they make reveals how little they actually know about the subject they are discussing.

Coming on to this board and lecturing Folks that have been studying MA for 20 or even 30 plus years, many of whom are LEO's and Military will make a person a laughing stock in moments.

If you really want to participate I'd advise reading A LOT more threads before launching any of your own and perhaps asking some questions instead of pushing your "Kung Fu is the way and the light agenda".

Have you seen Jason's repeated reference to trolls?

If you want anyone to take you seriously stop trying to cram your unwanted advice onto the board and participate in some on going topics.

This advice is offered free of sarcasm, I really mean it and hope you figure it out.



and how old are you


I'll be 36 in a few weeks. Thanks for asking. (Ok that was a little bit sarcastic)

Cheers
c

P.S. Try using the quote button on each post you want quote then copy and paste the tags around each point to break it up. It makes your posts MUCH easier to read as Cliff mentioned earlier.

[Kung Fu teacher]

Cliff Hargrave, Hello again,

I agree that I type fast and my spelling is weak, and I am a bit lazy to go back and correct all the errors at times, I regret this and will seek to fix this problem, but does that mean that I am not fourty three years old as I said I am? Your logic is flawed.
I was born January fourth, ninteen sixty three. I am married with four children. I have been studying martial arts when I was about nineteen years old. I achieved an istructors level at the first school I trained in under Brian Lesihmans instruction. I studied Shaol Lin Kung Fu and then went to another school learning Hung Gar and White Crane, I progressed to the seniors class. Then I went on to study privately and teach students privately. I have also studied other styles and I have intest in the tiger style, mantis, snake fist style and Wing Chun. I presently teach kung Fu at a priemier Fitness club and I am a graphic Artist by trade.
I believe what I have written does qualify my experience. But it depends what style you practice, the information may not be what you have been taught. Please show me any error that I have made regarding technique, application or any area of disagreement you have with me?

Bruce

[Cliff Hargrave]

I presently teach kung Fu at a priemier Fitness club and I am a graphic Artist by trade.


Where? Show me the website with your name listed as instructor. Or show me a website with your instructors schools. Or show me a website with your graphic art company.

Until such time..........

[Dennis Monk]

I began my training under Carlos Gracie Jr, at the Gracie Barra Academy. There I achieved the rank of BJJ purple belt, and have much vale tudo training as well. I traveled to a relatively unknown region of Thailand and studied traditional Muay Thai kickboxing. After two years of this I then moved back to the states and began Tae Kwon Do training. After 2 years of that I am a green belt with a blue stripe. Actually none of the above is true, but it would be really difficult for you to prove otherwise.

My point?
I think they are looking for a bit more clarification from you.

[Kung Fu teacher]

Hello Musubi Dojo,

You said,

I ask because your posts sound like many of the 18 year old "masters" that come on this board wanting to enlighten us with their wisdom.

My response,

If my spelling and grammar is weak that does not mean I am 18 years old, your reasoning is weak here. I seek to encourage others and share information with others. I do not seek to enlighten with the physical knowledge, true enlightenment comes through a spiritual path, and that is a rather long discussion. I feel that you are the one who must examine his motives.

A man cannot see what is above him when he is to busy looking down at others.

And when the Sun is directly over a man he cast very little shadow.

Humiltiy is neccessary like underwear, but indecent if it shows.

You said,

Their wisdon is usually ridiculous theories that would get a person killed in a violent confrontation. In fact every post they make reveals how little they actually know about the subject they are discussing.

My response,

What I have talked about is the foundation for most martial art forms, in all the forms they are practicing fighting a invisible opponent, is this wrong and should all styles just throw out form and technique and resort to some, street brawling agression? I don't think so, You speek very uninformed here and show your understanding.
Some of my students have had confrontations and the techniques i taught them worked.
If I have shown any error in my words tell me where? point out the exact reference and tell me why you disagree.

You said,

Coming on to this board and lecturing Folks that have been studying MA for 20 or even 30 plus years, many of whom are LEO's and Military will make a person a laughing stock in moments.

My response,

You and I must agree that a person can study wrongly for 20 to 30 years and make their training pointless. And I for one can still learn more even after studying for so long. Are you trying to say that a person who studies for 20 to 30 years can not still learn?
I also have been studying since I was nineteen, some 24 years or so, my training has not been useless. But I don't claim that years of experience always means proficiency.

You mention the military, well, I also may have an oportunity to teach the police force in my city through an open door with the Police Foundations Department. If this opens up for me the police will not think what I teach them is laughable at all.

You said,

If you really want to participate I'd advise reading A LOT more threads before launching any of your own and perhaps asking some questions instead of pushing your "Kung Fu is the way and the light agenda".

My response,

I do not push my kung Fu, I want to encourage others, you mistake my motives, examine your own motives first before you go giving me advice.

Bye for now

Check the plank in your own eye first before you try to remove someone elses speck in their eye.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Hmm, still not answering I see. Well that just proves it. All real martial artists are not afraid to say who they trained with, their ranks, where they trained, where they train now, etc. Only the frauds are afraid to give out information.

[Kung Fu teacher]

Cliff Hargrave, hello again,

So now a person must be in error and did not train because they do not have a web site? Hmm, bery flawed logic.

How old are you?

[Webmaster]

Cliff Hargrave, Hello again,

I agree that I type fast and my spelling is weak, and I am a bit lazy to go back and correct all the errors at times, I regret this and will seek to fix this problem, but does that mean that I am not fourty three years old as I said I am? Your logic is flawed.
I was born January fourth, ninteen sixty three. I am married with four children. I have been studying martial arts when I was about nineteen years old. I achieved an istructors level at the first school I trained in under Brian Lesihmans instruction. I studied Shaol Lin Kung Fu and then went to another school learning Hung Gar and White Crane, I progressed to the seniors class. Then I went on to study privately and teach students privately. I have also studied other styles and I have intest in the tiger style, mantis, snake fist style and Wing Chun. I presently teach kung Fu at a priemier Fitness club and I am a graphic Artist by trade.
I believe what I have written does qualify my experience. But it depends what style you practice, the information may not be what you have been taught. Please show me any error that I have made regarding technique, application or any area of disagreement you have with me?

Bruce
Post corrected below.

http://www.budoseek.net/temp/corrected_post.gif

Poor spelling and grammar skills are no excuse when you have tools on your computer that will assist you in that regard. I suggest that make an attempt to more clearly communicate with your fellow members by typing your post into a word processing program (like MS Word or MS Works), run spell and grammar check, and then copy and paste your post into the text box when you post. To do less is disrespectful of your fellow members, and demonstrates that you do not hold yourself to the same level of excellence in all your endeavors that you claim for your Kung Fu.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Cliff Hargrave, hello again,

So now a person must be in error and did not train because they do not have a web site? Hmm, bery flawed logic.

How old are you?

A grahic artist without a website? That is bery interesting :)

Still will not give your location I see, or any additional information. You keep proving my point with every post you make, thanks.

[Kung Fu teacher]

Cliff Hargrave

I do not have to prove anything to anyone, I do not seek to promote myself. Your logic and judgement is to quick and flawed again.

I trained at Energy lake kung Fu studios under master Brian Leishman, then I trained at E-Chaun Mun Fist of Mind school, and then I trianed privately and studied various styles and taught privately. I already mentioned that I was an assistant instructor level and in the seniors class at another club, we did not have this modern belt system at E-Chaun Mun we all had black sashes. In Energy lake in the Kung Fu club we had different sashes, but the level I achieved I was told was about a black blet. This black belt stuff means nothing to me, I have seen small children with so called black belts, this is meaningless. If you put stock in this you are only promoting a wrong teaching.

You judge wrongly, consider this,

A man is standing in front of you with a knife in his hand and blood all over his body and he has a furious stressed out expression on his face. What type of man is this to you? Do you think he is a madman, and to be avoided at all cost? Well, lets enlarge the picture a bit and see that there is a tiger in front of him and his wife and children behind him, now what type of man is he?

Don't judge by outward appearance, and as we say in the martial arts world, never underestimate your opponent. You fail in both of these I believe.

You must examine your own heart and see if pride and strife are there against me. I do not want any antagonism between us.

[Kung Fu teacher]

Yes I have no web site but I can send you some samples of my work if you like, just give me your email

[Kung Fu teacher]

Webmaster,

This is true and your advice is well taken, I am not doing good Kung Fu (or a job well done) when I type. I will seek to correct this.

Bruce

[Darrell]

Musubi Dojo said, on April 3 2006:


I trained at Energy Lake for a few months. They were awfully good at seperating me from my money...

Just sayin...

[Musubi Dojo]

If my spelling and grammar is weak that does not mean I am 18 years old, your reasoning is weak here. I seek to encourage others and share information with others. I do not seek to enlighten with the physical knowledge, true enlightenment comes through a spiritual path, and that is a rather long discussion. I feel that you are the one who must examine his motives.

A man cannot see what is above him when he is to busy looking down at others.

And when the Sun is directly over a man he cast very little shadow.

Humiltiy is neccessary like underwear, but indecent if it shows..

You don't seek to encourage anything but your own agenda. Attacking the person who points out your mistake is a classic troll defense. Not offering any kind of proof for anything you say is another.

Here's a quote for you "Empty your Cup"
Or how about "Seek Beginers Mind"




What I have talked about is the foundation for most martial art forms, in all the forms they are practicing fighting a invisible opponent, is this wrong and should all styles just throw out form and technique and resort to some, street brawling agression? I don't think so, You speek very uninformed here and show your understanding.
Some of my students have had confrontations and the techniques i taught them worked.
If I have shown any error in my words tell me where? point out the exact reference and tell me why you disagree...

My former post was honest and to the point. It actually was an opportunity for you to say "Wow, am I really coming off like that? I'd like to be part of the community, maybe I should look around a little before spouting off any more".

By your reaction, I'd say I hit the mark.



You and I must agree that a person can study wrongly for 20 to 30 years and make their training pointless. And I for one can still learn more even after studying for so long. Are you trying to say that a person who studies for 20 to 30 years can not still learn?
I also have been studying since I was nineteen, some 24 years or so, my training has not been useless. But I don't claim that years of experience always means proficiency. ....

So now you are insinuating that the long term folks here have been misinformed and you're here to spread the light? Give me a break...How arrogant can you possibly be?



You mention the military, well, I also may have an oportunity to teach the police force in my city through an open door with the Police Foundations Department. If this opens up for me the police will not think what I teach them is laughable at all....

Many of the folks here ARE COPS and ARE SOLDIERS not a guy who showed some offiecrs some moves once. Most of the other instructors here have taught cops at one point or another because, surprise, cops are interetsed in martial arts.



I do not push my kung Fu, I want to encourage others, you mistake my motives, examine your own motives first before you go giving me advice.

Bye for now

Check the plank in your own eye first before you try to remove someone elses speck in their eye.

I gave you advice because you are new here and making a complete arse of yourself. If you don't want to take it by all means don't.

Look above for an example of how to use the quote tags you've been asked to use and so rudely ignored.

Since you like quotes so much....

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.
Richard Feynman (1918 - 1988), Caltech commencement address, 1974

It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely uneducated.
Alec Bourne

Cheers
c

[Cliff Hargrave]

Cliff Hargrave

I do not have to prove anything to anyone, I do not seek to promote myself.


Then why are you creating over 40 posts in three days, spouting your kung fu effectiveness, sprinkled with pseudo philosophical BS that sounds like a bad impersonation of Kwai-Chang Kain? You must be trying to prove or promote something.




I trained at Energy lake kung Fu studios under master Brian Leishman, then I trained at E-Chaun Mun Fist of Mind school,

Can't find that, but I found this: http://www.whitelotussystem.com/ E-mail sent for verification. Of course that site is as bad as your posts. No background listed for Leishman either. Just some fortune cookie stuff and talk of a "holistic" martial art.


You judge wrongly, consider this

Here is something for you to consider: A person appears on a forum, writes like a 12 year old, makes over 40 posts in three days, claims skills above and beyond others, makes technique posts that are either jibberish or completely void of any real life application experience, throws in crappy sayings, will not say where he is from, has a dubious background, condesends and calls other people wrong.

That makes you either a troll or someone living in a fantasy world.

[Cliff Hargrave]

That makes you either a troll or someone living in a fantasy world.

Well a little web searching and I answered my own question.

**********************
From: http://www.loebrich.org/2002/03/22/star-wars-light-sabers/

Bruce Downey wrote:

I made a lightsaber, sort of, here is my email if you want to see it. I made a small scale one and a full scale one.

downey@ca.inter.net

Posted 12 Dec 2005 at 5:42 pm
***********************

From: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t369884.html

Real lightsaber, I made one

Hello all,

I actually made a smaller scale lightsaber that works. Has anyone else done this here. the heat of it is about 3000 degrees. It is neat. I want to post video or pics, I hope to , but I only have a mac and my picture device works on a PC. I showed to some people at a comic convention this summer, they were amazed. i am trying to make a fullscale one. The internal device is giving me problems.

downey@ca.inter.net
***************************

[Eye4NEye]

Sweet! I want one! It will go great with my pet Wookie!

[jwinch2]

Well a little web searching and I answered my own question.



Game, set, and match...

[Neil Yamamoto]

Well, he is a graphic artist.

http://www.jacklakeproductions.com/File73.html

Scroll down about 3/4 of the page.

My take, I think he was seriously mislead by his instructors as to what he was really learning. Of course, his presentation of himself here hasn't helped much, has it?

[Kung Fu teacher]

So what if I built a workable light sabre, I have four kids, or did you forget this, and one of them likes Star Wars, they get excited when I get involved with them. Is it wrong to be an inventor and like sci fi movies. Does that mean you cannot be a martial artist? Your reasoning is flawed again and your logioc. The instructor Brian Leishman does not teach where he used to years aggo, and when I was there we did not push selling of anything, that site you refer to is not connected to where I was or what I learned.

By the way the Light sabre I made was very dificult to make, I doubt that an eighteen year old could make it.

[Tony Dismukes]

So what if I built a workable light sabre, ... By the way the Light sabre I made was very dificult to make, I doubt that an eighteen year old could make it.

That's right, an eighteen year old couldn't make a working light saber. Neither could anyone else, absent a revision of the laws of physics or a sudden three hundred year jump in technology. I might be impressed with your creativity if you built a nice toy model of a light saber, but the quotes above "workable light saber", "3000 degrees" indicate you're claiming to have built a real one. Good way to lose all credibility.

[Kung Fu teacher]

Ok, to sum up who I am, so that there is no misunderstanding.

My name I Bruce Downey, I am 43 years old and have four children, I started in the martial arts when I was about 19 years old, I then got involved in graphic arts around that time, doing paste up and stats, some rubby cutting, silk screening etc. Then I continued for years and went to another club that taught Hung Gar and White Crane. At this time I was still hoping around from different graphic companies, though things were changing and I had to shift into computers.
When I met my wife I was not on any spritual path, but her family had a religious background and I was stirred up again to search for meaning and truth, the teaching in Kung Fu or other philosophies i sought out did not have the substance I was searching for. I had a conversion a little while after I met herand I became a christian. Immediately I was full of desire to help others, I was drawn into street preaching, and I have preached on the streets for many years. I gathered with other assemblies and developed frindships in the pentecostal church that I was going. I left that assembly to plant church meetings in homes and I have done this for many years I am an elder in our assmbly and my heart is to help others, my ministering is teacher, evangelist and somewhat apostolic. I did not practice as much Kung Fu when I was so involved in ministering and teaching the scriptures, though I still did practice, but in the last few years I have been getting back into it again, I teach at a fitness club and I do it for fun, exercise and self defence and a love of the style. I see helping others defend themselves as a worthy thing, though this is not my main thrust. The spiritual truth and salvation of others is the main thing. I have had struggles at times about teaching Kung Fu, I want to be careful not to direct people into false religious ideas, so I stick with the physical training in the club, yet I teach a strong moral aspect to the whole idea of using martial arts at all. I love the art aspect of martial arts and the aspect of self defence and discipline of the body.
I have four fantastic children and I suppose they get me involved in things like making light sabres etc, I love to spend time with them and I get to do some things that us adults would never do. I also do illustration and work in the graphic arts field.
My interest in coming into a site like this is far from what some have tried to paint me as, I seriously seek to encourage others and talk about style, and I admit i do prefer Kung Fu over other styles. I think some may take issue with me just because I think kung Fu is a wonderful style and the most comprehensive. I do not mean for a second that other styles are not good.
I admit that at times I can also get in my pride and I regret seriously if I have done this, this is not my mindset towards you at all. I respect any who disciplines himself and worked hard at this discipline.
There, I have spread myself open for more attacks, but I hope that others here will avoid attacking. I don't think I know it all in the martial arts, far from it, or in spiritual matters or graphics, etc. If I have given that impression, please forgive me. I don't think it is wrong to share what you firmly believe in regards to your style or techniques. It may come off as if you are lecturing other 30 year vetrans, etc, but if they are secure in their stance nothing can move them. I can still earn things from my children about life and areas of my life.

Ok, talk later

[Kung Fu teacher]

I did some research on the actual temperature of the sabre, it is2600 degrees F/1350 degrees C

And who said I made it with lasers. Here is a picture of it. Sorry for the quality, that is how it came out from my multi device when I brought it in to the computer. This is an actual picture not a touched up photo.

By the way the length of the blue beam is not as long as in the film long.

Bruce

[Kung Fu teacher]

How do you get a picture to show up in your post?

[Rasputin]

Bruce,

Consider this your formal invitation to the Budoseek gathering in 2007. We are estimating it will be in September by the responses so far, and it is most likely to be held here in Louisiana. If you bring your lightsaber with you, perhaps we could arrange for some tameshigiri.

For future reference, to sum up what has been said before: the reasons that you have been under scrutiny here on Budoseek are:

1. Making a large number of "authoritative" posts so soon after joining the forum.

2. Poor grammar and spelling skills. Remember, you can only be judged by the quality of your written word here on the Internet. If it is found lacking, so shall the source (be).

3. Reluctance to post a website address or a verifiable lineage.

If you had joined the board as a supplicant, nobody would care with whom you had studied. However, your posts were designed to teach others about Kung Fu, and that requires some verification as to your qualifications.

As far as I am concerned, you have so far been cordial and pleasant, so I am glad to have you here.

[Jeff C.]

Bruce, there is a difference between preaching and having a conversation. You have been using a preachy style here, and none of us care to be preached at. Try to adopt a more conversational style.

Your sabre looks like a gas torch. Are you fueling it with propane?

Jeff Cook

[Mark Barlow]

Your sabre looks like a gas torch. Are you fueling it with propane?

Jeff Cook

"Well-done or not well-done. There is no medium." Yoda, at the Jedi Bar B Q.

[asdf]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

lightsabers???

I just finished a prototype of an X-Wing fighter, complete with an R2 unit and a hyperdrive engine. The only problem is that it's prone to being controlled by a tractor beam coming from the Death Star.

Use the force, Bruce... :)

[Rasputin]

I just finished a prototype of an X-Wing fighter, complete with an R2 unit and a hyperdrive engine.

I look forward to seeing it at the next Budoseek get-together.

[Jeff Burger]

I was talking to a shao Lin monk today who had studied in the Northen Shao Lin temple

Not unless you got a time machine.
Can borrow that? There are some "investments" Id like to make.

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/fanboy.htm

[Kung Fu teacher]

Jeff Burger,

This is the monk I was talking with, here is the site, check it out for me if you like, let me know if he is not real. look at his histroy, the styles he teaches, the Shao lin program etc

http://www.chungwahkungfu.com/gallery.php

[Dennis Monk]

He looks really young to have been a Shao Lin monk, prior to the "Cultural Revolution", which he would have to be in order to be a real Shaolin monk.
I defer to Jeff B or Sean Stoneheart, I only know what (I think I know) from reading what these guys write.

[Kung Fu teacher]

Here is another pics from the Chung Wah School, The instructors name is, Master Lee Chi Wai.

[Kwon Pup Maze]

Kung Fu Master, have you ever heard of the story of Ikkyu ?
Being a Master I believe you have been taught the lesson on his response when asked about the broken tea cup.


Learn from it.

[Jeff Burger]

I dont need to look at any webiste.

There is plenty of stuff on Budoseek to find out about Shaolin Temple.
(ie Im not typing it out for the millionth time)

[Darrell]

Not unless you got a time machine.


You're in luck. I just built a working flux capacitor.

It was very complex...I had to hang at least 50 clocks before the design made itself clear.

[Jeff C.]

How many dilithium crystals does it take to power that thing up? Also, is it a left-handed or right-handed flux capacitor?

Jeff Cook

[Jeff Burger]

Dude if you cause a rift in the space time continuum Im going to be like totally bummed.

[Kung Fu teacher]

Jeff Burger Hello again,

You should at least look at the site, perhaps some of the stuff on Budoseek about the Shao lin Temple is wrong.

Here are some excerpts from the site,

"2000 (China): By the abbot’s request, Master Lee was chosen and made an official 31st generation Shaolin warrior monk disciple, named Shi De Wei. Master Lee has been put in charge of representing the Shaolin Temple and its official curriculum in North America."

"The official Kung Fu Training Program of the famous Shaolin Temple martial art monks is here for you to learn!
* Curriculum derived from the authentic Shaolin Temple, Henan, Songshan, China.
* Program taught by Master Lee Chi Wai (Shi De Wei), official 31st generation Shaolin warrior monk.
* The only kung fu program officially endorsed and authorized by the Songshan Shaolin Temple Warrior Monk Training Centre in China.
* The only program able to offer discipleship and advanced study opportunities.
* Open to men and women, this is the only program created, authorized and recognized by the one and only Shaolin Temple in China.
* This is a two-year program with opportunities for advanced studies and continuing education."

"SHAOLIN CONNECTION

A Shaolin disciple, Master Lee is a North American Shaolin liaison, facilitating smooth travels for the teams and ensuring the reputation of Shaolin is maintained by its overseas hosts.

SONGSHAN SHAOLIN MARTIAL ARTS INTERNATIONAL TRAINING CENTRE

Taught at our major branches, the Shaolin diploma program is yet another way Chung Wah promotes authentic Chinese martial arts to the world!"

Anyway, you can call it what you want, but so far he seems to be authentic.

Bruce

[Webmaster]

Here are some excerpts from the site, <snip>

You believe everything you read on the internet? If so, there is a host of deposed government officials and royalty in Nigeria that has a terrific financial deal for you.

[Enyu]

I always thought that real shaolin monks are never allowed to leave their temple. I heard they lived lives of solitude and all that. They're monks after all.

[Qasim]

LOL.....or Sean Stoneheart.

How old are you really Kung Fu Teacher?
Old enough to drive a car?

You forgot to ask what style of martial art "Kung Fu" was. :bandit:

[Qasim]

Well a little web searching and I answered my own question.

**********************
From: http://www.loebrich.org/2002/03/22/star-wars-light-sabers/

Bruce Downey wrote:

I made a lightsaber, sort of, here is my email if you want to see it. I made a small scale one and a full scale one.

downey@ca.inter.net

Posted 12 Dec 2005 at 5:42 pm
***********************

From: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t369884.html

Real lightsaber, I made one

Hello all,

I actually made a smaller scale lightsaber that works. Has anyone else done this here. the heat of it is about 3000 degrees. It is neat. I want to post video or pics, I hope to , but I only have a mac and my picture device works on a PC. I showed to some people at a comic convention this summer, they were amazed. i am trying to make a fullscale one. The internal device is giving me problems.

downey@ca.inter.net
***************************

My seven year old is not this ambitious. Maybe he's legit afterall.....

Psych!!! :bandit:

[sean_stonehart]

I always thought that real shaolin monks are never allowed to leave their temple. I heard they lived lives of solitude and all that. They're monks after all.

Nah... only in the movies. Nowadays the guys there drive cars, have cell phones & even families... in more than one country!!!:eek: :eek:

[sean_stonehart]

My seven year old is not this ambitious. Maybe he's legit afterall.....

Psych!!! :bandit:


Actually I did ask what he played. I saw a reference to Hung Ga & White Crane (dunno Fujian or Tibetan) but never got a firm answer.

[Qasim]

How many dilithium crystals does it take to power that thing up? Also, is it a left-handed or right-handed flux capacitor?

Jeff Cook

Save your Federation Credits Jeff, the Flux Capacitor only needs plutonium to power it. Save even more if you get the model Doc Brown introduced that uses trash! :laugh:

[Musubi Dojo]

You forgot to ask what style of martial art "Kung Fu" was. :bandit:

The ultimate, undefeatable martial art, Silly.....:p

[Patrick Hayes]

Save your Federation Credits Jeff, the Flux Capacitor only needs plutonium to power it. Save even more if you get the model Doc Brown introduced that uses trash! :laugh:
Or simply invent a Brownian Motion Inducer and use it to power your Infinite Improbability Drive. Ironically, "infinitely improbable" is what I rate the contents of most of this thread. . . :laugh:

[jmd161]

Don't worry Bruce, I believe you about the shaolin monk...well....err...kinda;)


I do believe there are some real monks still around, not warrior monks, but Buddhist monks.

In any case, you need to really take the advice everyone is offering you. Jeff Burger knows a bit about training in China, and at the Shaolin temple. I understand you're happy with your training and want others to see what you have found, but it's been done before. You're not the first to come to this forum or anyother preaching about the wonders of kung fu.

Infact, I myself did the samething here when i started my Black Tiger training. I was so happy to be learning something "real" that i wanted to share it with the world. Problem is, about one thousand 16-18 yr olds do the samething everyday after reading a book,website,pamplet etc...

Like Jeff C. mentioned, you're coming off as preaching and that's the problem everyone is having with you, not to mention some of your techniques discriptions are a bit questionable. I myself have been involved in MA's around 23 yrs, and i know that you can never know enough. I train Hak Fu Mun,Swai Jiao and submission wrestling currently, and that's coming from a pro TCMA guy.

jeff:)

[Jeff Burger]

There are plenty of Buddhist Monks. Buddhism is the major religion in Thailand.

And what would the major religion of China be????
The answer to that kind of tells you something about your Shaolin monks.

[Kung Fu teacher]

Webmaster, Hello,

I did not just read it on the internet. I went to his school, and talked to him for a while. I may continue my studies with him in the future.

Check it out for me, and if you find some falsehood I would like to know.

http://www.chungwahkungfu.com/gallery.php

[Kung Fu teacher]

Here are some more pics from his school.

[Kung Fu teacher]

I was unable to enlarge the third pic so here it is again.

[Webmaster]

Webmaster, Hello,

I did not just read it on the internet. I went to his school, and talked to him for a while. I may continue my studies with him in the future.

Check it out for me, and if you find some falsehood I would like to know.

http://www.chungwahkungfu.com/gallery.php
I already had before making my previous post.

The Shaolin Temples, it's monks, all religious groups, artists, drug addicts, and any group thought to be subversive and a threat to the government (and historically the Shaolin Order WAS a subversive group and used their influence for government reform) were eliminated during the cultural revolution. What you have in the "modern" Shaolin temples is a tourist attraction set up for martial arts tourist from the West. The folks that "play" the monks are actors (not unlike Colonial Williamsburg) who cater to those with the money and want to believe a fantasy. The Chinese communists are not stupid and realize that there are plenty of suckers in the West that are more than happy to ignore or are ignorant of history, and will gladly fork over their money for the "authentic" Shaolin experience. What is being taught there is not Shaolin arts, but the official PRC approved art of Wushu. It is logical to conclude as folks in China immigrate to the West that some of these "actors" would find their way here as well, set up shop, and carry on their previous trade of selling a fantasy.

So it you want to engage in this Shaolin fantasy (this is the same guy that builds butane "lightsabers") please feel free. It's your life and your money.

[TonyU]

I already had before making my previous post.

The Shaolin Temples, it's monks, all religious groups, artists, drug addicts, and any group thought to be subversive and a threat to the government (and historically the Shaolin Order WAS a subversive group and used their influence for government reform) were eliminated during the cultural revolution. What you have in the "modern" Shaolin temples is a tourist attraction set up for martial arts tourist from the West. The folks that "play" the monks are actors (not unlike Colonial Williamsburg) who cater to those with the money and want to believe a fantasy. The Chinese communists are not stupid and realize that there are plenty of suckers in the West that are more than happy to ignore or are ignorant of history, and will gladly fork over their money for the "authentic" Shaolin experience. What is being taught there is not Shaolin arts, but the official PRC approved art of Wushu. It is logical to conclude as folks in China immigrate to the West that some of these "actors" would find their way here as well, set up shop, and carry on their previous trade of selling a fantasy.

So it you want to engage in this Shaolin fantasy (this is the same guy that builds butane "lightsabers") please feel free. It's your life and your money.

On that note can anyone recommend a good book on Chinese history covering the Cultural Revolution?
Thank you.

[Kung Fu teacher]

When I studied this topic of history. It seems to me that during the attacks of the govenrment on the martial arts world many documents were hidden and teachers went into hiding etc. We see this all through the history of Hung Hee Quan etc and we see that such styles , ordigionating from Shao Lin continud in secret. The art still went on, here are some articles I found about this topic,

"The Shaolin Temple has a tumultuous history and withstood many challenges over the millennium. Its indomitable spirit outlasted the rise and fall of several imperial dynasties and even antagonistic emperors out to destroy the Shaolin influence.'

"In 1644, after routing the Great Wall near Shanhaiguan, Hebei province, Manchurians invaded Beijing and established the Qing dynasty. Under Qing rule, strict laws prohibited peasants and folks from Kung Fu training. However, the Qing continued to hold martial examinations and combat competitions to select fighters for their armies. Folk heroes and fighters vowed to rebel against the Manchu leaders and reinstate Ming reign."

"In the aftermath of the Cultural Revolution, the third period (1978 – present) began with efforts to rectify the damage done to Wu Shu and to revitalize this traditional art. The Chinese National Sports Committee had a mandate to promote Wu Shu as a national art, with its former esteem and prestige in the history, culture and tradition of China. With the full support of all, Wu Shu was returned to its former vitality.

The government spent millions of dollars on a project to “dig out the originals” in its plan to revitalize Wu Shu. Imprisoned athletes were released and accorded respect. Committees were charged with the formidable task of researching and recording all the traditional boxing forms. Interviews with surviving members of the eldest generations of boxers, weapons and manuscripts were collected again, not for destruction but for preservation and glorification in national museums. Items hidden during the revolution were donated to this worthy cause. National Wu Shu competitions, demonstrations and exchanges were organized. "

"On the other hand, traditional Chinese martial arts continually and quietly grow in a different stream among the folk people. These arts, carefully preserved, have spread within China and overseas. Traditional Chinese martial arts have stood the test of time, weathering social and political storms, while maintaining its intrinsic value. "

Any way, I am still researching, but I think I wll find that many of the Shao Lin teaching had been hidden and the art went into secret. It would seem that the climate changed and reviva of these martial teachings have surfaced again over the years. But as I said, the monk I was talking to had told me that only a few of the older men had the origional teahcings much of what we see today is changed or added to the some older forms etc.

[Webmaster]

The PRC is hungry for dollars and it is not like they are going to admit that what is at the recreated Shaolin temple is bogus and the folks that work there are actors teaching nothing more than modern Wushu. That would not sit well with the Western MA suckers... or I mean tourists, who what to be treated to the "real deal".

If you want real Kung Fu, you are more likely to find it in Taiwan and not in the PRC. There and Hong Kong is where most of the folks fled from the communists. However, it is pretty hard to be an authentic Shaolin monk when the temples were destroyed and their monks executed.

Bottom line is that you can believe whatever you like. I will stick with the facts, and you can believe PRC propaganda and engage in your personal fantasy. Also, if you are going to post quotations from various articles, how about doing us the courtesy of providing a citation (that would be a reference or link to where the article can be found).

[Webmaster]

On that note can anyone recommend a good book on Chinese history covering the Cultural Revolution?
Thank you.
Tony, have read a number of books on the Cultural Revolution over the years. Some are crap, and others are well done. Many are written by those that did manage to survive the horrors of those times. So while I have no specific recommendations, I would say your best bet would be to go to your public library and get several on the subject.

[TonyU]

Tony, have read a number of books on the Cultural Revolution over the years. Some are crap, and others are well done. Many are written by those that did manage to survive the horrors of those times. So while I have no specific recommendations, I would say your best bet would be to go to your public library and get several on the subject.
Thank you.

[Webmaster]

Thank you.
No problem Tony. Also as a matter of clarification, the Cultural Revolution is not the first attempt by the PRC to purge themselves of subversives and other undesireable influences. Rather, it all really started with the Communist takeover of the country and continued (and still continues today) throughout the time leading up to the Cultural Revolution. Sometimes, we forget that we are dealing with Communists that are no less brutal than that of the "Soviet Model" and established their power in much the same way that was done during the Russian Revolution and later during Stalin's purges. Anyone and anything thought to be a threat to the state was brutally surpressed and it's leaders and their families killed. It has been their SOP from the beginning and continues today.

[TonyU]

No problem Tony. Also as a matter of clarification, the Cultural Revolution is not the first attempt by the PRC to purge themselves of subversives and other undesireable influences. Rather, it all really started with the Communist takeover of the country and continued (and still continues today) throughout the time leading up to the Cultural Revolution. Sometimes, we forget that we are dealing with Communists that are no less brutal than that of the "Soviet Model" and established their power in much the same way that was done during the Russian Revolution and later during Stalin's purges. Anyone and anything thought to be a threat to the state was brutally surpressed and it's leaders and their families killed. It has been their SOP from the beginning and continues today.
And people ***** and moan about our country, but I guess that's a discussion for another time and forum.
Thanks again. I guess I'm rather lacking in World History.

[Abbax8]

The PRC will not tolerate any system of belief, be it MA or religion or philosophy, that they do not completely control. They have started their own Chinese Catholic Church and appointed their own bishops, this from an atheistic government. They suppress, purge and kill those who don't tow the line.

Peace

Dennis

[Kung Fu teacher]

Webmaster,

The cultural revolution was not the first time that the Shao lin faced attacks and threats to thier martial arts etc, yet style from Shao lin found their way out and survived, such as Hung gar for example, many fled to different parts and during the cultural revolution martial artist and Shao lin monks had been familiar with the governments attacks, and much was preserved i believe and hidden, here is a quote from Wing lam Kung Fu club,

"Hung Gar's origins go back to the original Shaolin Temple in Henan province. Legend has it that one of the monks, Gee Sin Sim See, fled the temple as it was burned down by the Qing government soldiers in 1768, and brought Shaolin kungfu to Fukian province in the South. There, according to legend, Master Gee See taught Hung Hei Goon (a Fukian tea merchant) the Shaolin Tiger Style. Hung, being a curious man, always sought to improve his skills. He added to his Tiger Style elements from his wife's White Crane system, movements from the Dragon, Snake, and Leopard forms, and techniques from the Five Elements Fist. He modified and expanded his Tiger Style to develop a system better balanced in long- and short-range applications, a system which better reflected his own character and skills -- Hung Gar.

The new Southern Shaolin temple became associated with many revolutionary activities and when it too was burned the famous Hung Hei Gun brought the art to Guangdong province and along with student Luk Ah Choy, popularized the tiger-crane style in that region. He passed it down to Wang Tai, who in turn passed it down to Wong Kay Ying, who then taught it to his own son, Wong Fei Hung. Hung Gar's mast famous figure remains Wong Fei Hung, who, as a friend and contemporary of Dr. Sun Yat Sen, became well known as a patriot doctor and kung fu master. Born in 1850 and trained by his father sine the age of 5 Wong Fei Hung was known as one of the "Ten Tigers of Canton." He was recruited to serve in the imperial army as a leader under the famous General Tong Gin Cheong in Fukien province. As revolt was still fomenting against the Qing government, General Tong agreed to lead the people of Fukien in their uprising, and he secretly formed the National Army. Wong Fei Hong became an assistant to the army's general Lee Hung Chang, and armed with thousands of soldiers they joined General Tong on the battlefield. Under the threat of the Qing, General Tong cut his beard and in disguise fled to Canton, followed by Wong Fei Hung. In 1911 they joined with Sun Yat Sen who finally managed to liberate the Republic. Afterwards, Wong Fei Hung set up a famous dit dar clinic in Canton where he treated many poor patients, and there he also taught a select group of students, the famous Lam Sai Wing among them. Wong was also credited with formalizing Hung Gar's major techniques into one of kungfu's most famous sets, the Fu Hok Sheong Yin Kuen, or Tiger and Crane set. He died in 1933 at the age of 83. Hundreds of novels and movies have since immortalized the legend of Wong Fei Hung. Hung Gar draws on the Shaolin heritage of the five animals and five elements. It is characterized by its low, solid horse stance and its strong upper body strength and conditioning. It remains one of the most popular kungfu styles both throughout Asia and in the West.

[Kung Fu teacher]

Webmaster,

So when I teach Hung gar for example I believe that I am teaching techniuques that had much of their origin steming way back to the Shao Lin Temple, and so do many other Kung Fu instructors who teach Hung gar for example.

Shao lin kung Fu can be seen today regardless of whi says it cannot.

[Webmaster]

In addition to being challenged in writing in the English language, you also seem to have no experience with critical thinking. I have never said that there was not such a thing as Shaolin kung fu. You are just not going to find it at some PRC tourist trap or from one of it's former employees.

Anyway, I am through trying to get you to use your brain and engage in a little bit of common sense. Please enjoy your little fantasy and please don't bother the rest of us with it.