Clarification

[AllanJGAnderson]

There seems to be a need for clarification on the polls. I think too many people have the misconception that a majority of folk on Budoseek are Islam-hating imperialists. So in order to clarify, anyone who devoutly hates Islam and wants the west to destroy it, believes every Muslim in the world is a terrorists, and believes that the Crusades are releveant and justified in a arguement about current events. Can post here. Without further adue. . .

[Rasputin]

I will admit that I used to feel that #2 was 100% true. Lately I have seen some of the undercover documentaries which have been aired where the mainstream clergy admits that one of their stated goals is the establishment of islamic law in all countries of the world, and that one way they plan on accomplishing this is through increased immigration and outbreeding of the rest of the population. Germany is one very frightening, very real expression of this tactic.

It's scary.

I still believe that most people of most faiths just want the peace to live their lives in quiet dignity and in harmony with their neighbors, muslims included.

I do continue to wonder, however: if the Koran says that violence is to be avoided, and those who kill the innocent should be punished, why don't they work harder to ferret out the terrorists instead of harboring them? I would imagine that they would find it extremely difficult to remain functioning in secret if their own populations and clergy were actively trying to shut them down.

[Abbax8]

And if you want to truly delve deeper into the problem, you need to explore the effect of birth control and abortion on societies as a whole and how this is accelerating the loss of western civiliztion throughout Europe.

Peace

Dennis

[Jeff C.]

I will admit that I used to feel that #2 was 100% true. Lately I have seen some of the undercover documentaries which have been aired where the mainstream clergy admits that one of their stated goals is the establishment of islamic law in all countries of the world, and that one way they plan on accomplishing this is through increased immigration and outbreeding of the rest of the population. Germany is one very frightening, very real expression of this tactic.

As bizarre and disturbing as that is, it is not a terrorist act or ideology.

Jeff Cook

[Tony Dismukes]

I do continue to wonder, however: if the Koran says that violence is to be avoided, and those who kill the innocent should be punished, why don't they work harder to ferret out the terrorists instead of harboring them? I would imagine that they would find it extremely difficult to remain functioning in secret if their own populations and clergy were actively trying to shut them down.

David, your second sentence illustrates exactly why it's so important to keep the war on terror from being cast as a war on Islam and why one of our best weapons against the terrorists is good P.R. with the mainstream Muslim world. Since the actual terrorists are very small in number, their effectiveness is limited without at least some support in the general population. The more that population buys into the notion that the west is waging a crusade against Islam in general, the more likely it is to provide room for the extremists to operate. (Yes, I know that the more thoughtful critics of Islam differentiate between peaceful Islam and its more extreme branches, but the tribalism built into human nature means that many Muslims will perceive a "war on Islamic extremism" from outsiders as meaning a "war on Islam".)

As far as your initial question, I suspect the answer depends on the "they" in question. Most westernized Muslims do oppose terrorism and will do whatever they can to fight it. The recently ballyhooed terror plot arrests by the British came about due to a tip from a Muslim informant. We've had no significant Al Qaeda attacks in the U.S. other than 9/11 probably because Al Qaeda has no serious support from the U.S. Islamic community. (The 9/11 hijackers were mostly Saudis, not members of the Islamic community in the U.S.)

In Europe, there are apparently significant Islamic communities which have not acculturated to the local societies. I've seen reports that this is encouraged by Islamic leaders. I've also seen reports that Islamic immigrants are treated as second-class citizens in some of these countries, leading to alienation from the mainstream society. I'm no expert, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was truth to both stories. I don't know how much support there is for terrorists in these communities, so I won't comment on the subject.

In Saudi Arabia, the repressive monarchy isn't terribly popular with the general populace and has encouraged extremist teachings to divert anger at the west that might otherwise have turned against their own rule. That decision was a big mistake.

In Iraq, the peaceful population is just trying to stay alive between warring tribal factions with old grudges, the U.S. army, nationalistic insurgents who want the U.S. to leave, criminal gangs, and foreign nationals associated with Al Qaeda who have moved in to take shots at the Americans. They've got a limited ability to do much about any of the above mentioned groups.

The PLO and Hamas are largely fighting for nationalistic rather than religious reasons. One thing that human history teaches us is that if religion says "peace" and nationalism says "war", nationalism wins.

Those are some answers. I'm sure an expert would have a lot more.

[Gordon Nore]

The recently ballyhooed terror plot arrests by the British came about due to a tip from a Muslim informant.

The same is true of the Southern Ontario bust a few weeks ago, in which several Toronto and area Muslims were arrested after obtaining three tonnes of amonium nitrate -- three times the amount used in the bombing of the AP Murrah Federal Building in OKC in 1995. The day after I posted this, a leader in Toronto's Muslim community was lauded for dropping a dime on the would-be terrorists and for going public about it.

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=184544&postcount=1

[Jonathan Randall]

And if you want to truly delve deeper into the problem, you need to explore the effect of birth control and abortion on societies as a whole and how this is accelerating the loss of western civiliztion throughout Europe.

Peace

Dennis

That's a good point. Islamic cultures (perhaps largely because less technologically advanced nations have historically higher birth rates) are winning on the demographic front.

[Jonathan Randall]

There seems to be a need for clarification on the polls. I think too many people have the misconception that a majority of folk on Budoseek are Islam-hating imperialists. So in order to clarify, anyone who devoutly hates Islam and wants the west to destroy it, believes every Muslim in the world is a terrorists, and believes that the Crusades are releveant and justified in a arguement about current events. Can post here. Without further adue. . .

To the contrary, I've found that the leadership here has zero tolerance for religion baiting. I was immmensely gratified to see that the professional soldiers on board, Mr. Craik and Mr. Cook, in particular, have been the first to jump on folks who post a "nuke 'em all" attitude in regards to Muslims.

[Cliff Hargrave]

The PLO and Hamas are largely fighting for nationalistic rather than religious reasons. One thing that human history teaches us is that if religion says "peace" and nationalism says "war", nationalism wins.



While the PLO has always been a leftist/communist organization, Hamas is a religious one. It is the Palestinian armed wing of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Muslim Brotherhood are Wahhabi Sunnis that want a return to a caliphate system of government that they lost when the Ottoman Empire fell. They started in Egypt and spread to Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. This is the same group that killed Sadat. They built schools, mosques, hospitals and orphanages in Gaza and the west bank. That is how Hamas became popular and eventually defeated the Fatah party (PLO) in the Palestinian elections.

Since taking over however, Hamas has stated instituting some Sharia law and they have a special religious police just like Saudi Arabia and Iran. They go around making sure people are obeying, and have carried out plenty of beatings and executions.

Hamas' slogan:

"God is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Qur'an its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of God is the loftiest of its wishes."

[Tony Dismukes]

Thanks for the correction, Cliff.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Thanks for the correction, Cliff.

Sometimes you really need a playbook to tell the players apart over there.

[silentsamurai]

Who's going to own up to voting on the first answer?.ha ha

[SteyrAUG]

You need an option D.

I realize not "all" Muslims are terrorists but a large percentage (not a minority) either are involved in, or support terrorism.