Financing a new school. How did you do it?

[DARKSON]

I am in the planning stages of opening up a new school. I want to open a boxing/kickboxing/grappling gym. I havent priced every thing out and I have not completed my business plan.

I was wondering how some of you went about financing your schools. Im thinking im going to need 20k to 30k to start. Please share your experiences.:bow:

[Dale Lackey]

If you are going to teach "Wraslin", I just have to move back to jacksonville and join. ;) Sorry, crass, but I just had to do it. :laugh:

[Patrick Hayes]

I opened a school a few years ago, which I closed after I moved out of state. We taught out of the local Grange Hall (a sort of municipal meeting place, not unlike a VFW or American Legion Hall), which rented us a large room one night a week for $300 a month. Our entire out-of-pocket expenses came to only $600. In short, we started very small and grew from there. The school was pretty successful after one year, and had potential to continue growing, so the strategy seemed to work for us. 20 to 30k would obviously get you your own space which would allow you to have classes whenever you wanted, as well as buy some nice equipment (ours was all second-hand to start), do some advertising, stuff like that, which will definitely be nice when you're starting out. But there are cheaper alternatives if the money is a problem.

[Brandon Fisher]

Loans is how we are doing it. Just signed the lease and get the keys to the dojo in the AM. Lay everything out in detail in the business plan. We are looking at about $40k to start.

Building or space:
Lease or Buy (we leased)
gas
water
electric
phone
internet
repair costs (this can be high)
spectator chairs
computer
management software
office desk & chair

Equipment:
Mats
Heavy bags
makiwara
weights (if you plan to do conditioning)

[DARKSON]

Thanks to those who have replied!

Brandon, I am very interested in hearing about your experience with obtaining the loan. What was that like? Did you have a hard time convincing them to loan you the money? Do you have prior business experience/education?

Thanks again for the insight!

[Jessica]

I'd also be curious to hear about your experience with the bank in regards to your loan. and I'd be curious to know if you had students already, or if you're starting from 0.

[Robv82]

Jamal,
I am kind of in the same place you are. Planning (read dreaming in my case), but not very far along. Here is what I came up with so far for equipment (wish list). Most of the costs are actual costs (with some rounding) from research on the great world wide web.

Total Equipment Cost 12,810.00

Training Floors
Custom Foam 180 sq ft 1.50 270.00
Vinyl Cover 180 sq ft 1.20 216.00
Wall Pads 5 70.00 350.00
Wall Holders 5 30.00 150.00
Puzzle Mats 540 sq ft 1.20 648.00
1,634.00

Ring
Everlast Floor Ring 2,400.00
20'x20' (16'x16' interior)

Bag Room
Heavy Bags 3 150.00 450.00
Speed Bags 2 50.00 100.00
550.00

Cardio Room
Treadmills 2 1,400.00 2,800.00
Bikes 2 1,000.00 2,000.00
4,800.00

Weight Room
Bench 1 300.00 300.00
Power Cage 1 866.00 866.00
set - cage, 300lbs weight set and tree (free shipping)
Dumbbells 1 630.00 630.00
5 lbs to 50 lbs
Weight Sets 2 200.00 400.00
Weight Trees 1 100.00 100.00
Dead Platform 1 100.00 100.00
Pull up Station 1 50.00 50.00
Dip Station 1 50.00 50.00
2,496.00

Gear
Boxing Head 2 40.00 80.00
Boxing Gloves 2 35.00 70.00
Bag Gloves 2 25.00 50.00
Sheilds 4 45.00 180.00
Focus Mitts 1 15.00 15.00
Thai Pads 1 35.00 35.00
Head 4 20.00 80.00
Punch 4 15.00 60.00
Kicks 4 15.00 60.00
Throwing Matts 2 150.00 300.00
930.00

[WMKS Shogun]

Okay, i started my school as a boys and girls club program. facility cost: $0 (i was staff).
then i eventually moved to a dance studio and got it for 2 nights and a saturday for 30% of tuitions charged.
Currently renting space from a hobby store (i have the back 1/4 to 1/3ish) for about $500 a month (not bad for 850 sq ft.). a few hundred a year for insurance. i had a few students to start with. i spent a few hundred on mats a pads (wholesale account). And the costs to fix up the back part of the hobby shop and turn it into a dojo ran me about $500.

[DARKSON]

Thanks Rob!

You just saved me 600 bucks on a ring! Please explain your training floor setup plans. Sounds very efficient.

[DARKSON]

Heres what I got so far on gear.

Everlast Floor Boxing Ring (16' x 16' ) $2,399.99
heavy/bags x 10 $1,000.00
bag gloves x 5 pair $125.00
head gear x 5 $150.00
double end bag x 1 $39.00
groin protector x 7 $70.00
focus mitts x 10 pair $200.00
mouth pieces $35.00
sparring gloves x 5 pair $200.00
speed bag platform 1 $50.00
speed bag 1 $20.00
shin pads x 5 pair $125.00
Thai pads x 10 pair $500.00
belly pad x 2 $60.00
scale 1 $80.00
timer 1 $100.00
jump ropes 15 $60.00

Total $5,213.99

[Robv82]

Kind of 2 side by side mat areas. Swain products for the grappling portion.
https://ws04.ipowerweb.com/smartweb/swainsportsmats/cart/product_bronze_vinyl_mats.asp
Zebra for the wall pads at the grappling end.
http://www.zebramats.com/
And good old Sam's club for very inexpensive puzzle mats for the more stand up type training. If you put carpet pad under it, it makes a pretty good all around surface. Not too soft, but doesn't kill you on a hard fall. That's what we have at the school I go to now.

[krhodes31]

I know that my instructor was able to get Small Business Association Loans. $200,000 each time to open 3 branch schools. I don't know what it involves but the SBA in your area might be a good place to start.

[DARKSON]

Wow!:eek: I'm pretty sure that I could open 20 gyms with that kind of cash. I will definitely check with the SBA. I have heard about their start up loans.

[Brandon Fisher]

Thanks to those who have replied!

Brandon, I am very interested in hearing about your experience with obtaining the loan. What was that like? Did you have a hard time convincing them to loan you the money? Do you have prior business experience/education?

Thanks again for the insight!
Sorry about the delay on getting back to you on this. Things are crazy. We did have some issues with one bank. My family owns a farm in indiana that has a go kart track on it. The farm and track are valued at nearly $1,000,000 my cut being about $58,000. They wanted to have the whole farm for collateral not just my portion. Needless to say I told them where to go. National City didn't give us a problem at all. They approved it without question.

I did run a DJ service for 9 years prior to this venture. I have however been in the martial arts going on 23 years and that helped alot.

If I can help anymore with anything let me know. Just PM me or email me.

[krhodes31]

Good luck with your school. Keep everyone posted on how you are doing. Running a martial arts school is a lot of work. People who don't have a passion for it don't last.

[kozak]

Yes, good luck on your endevour! My school took awhile to be making its own $. Look into government business loans or subventions. A business plan is a must, though.

[Brandon Fisher]

Thank you all. We are almost ready with the training area the walls get painted this weekend and should be open by next Thursday. Its been tough getting everything ready but we are rollin and the Properties company that owns the shopping center has been great. I will get pictures up soon of the completed project but here is what it looked like 2 weeks ago.

www.fisherkarate.com/dojopics/index.htm now it has a new title floor, two changing rooms and a large office. All the neons are gone also.

I agree it takes a passion to make it work. I will being my 23rd year in the martial arts next month (where did the time go) and I have literally dedicated my life to it. I love the arts, training, teaching, anything about it. What a way to live :-)

[Nubreed]

I live in Denver Colorado, moving here from a small town in Wyoming, and I am looking for help in starting up a club! I need idea's on where to look for a place that I can train and teach at a minimal fee. Is there a place on the net to search for space in Denver???? I am trying out near by churches and rec. center's but no luck so far! I had my own school for 10 years, which I started after my garage got filled with students. I live in a appartment and do not have a that option any more. Maybe some idea's on where to look for space. The winter is setting in and the park is getting cold! Any help would be great!

[Mark Barlow]

Ben,

I've had luck with gynmastic schools and dance schools. They usually are top heavy with young kids and classes end by 7pm or 8pm. Lots of open space and you'll probably pick up students from family members coming to pick up the little sisters.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

[WMKS Shogun]

My school started as a program in a Boys and Girls club, then moved to a dance studio and grew a little and now occupies its own space. It took some of my meager savings (okay, so almost all of my meager savings). Both moves (to the dance studio, and then to the new current location) have cost me, but both have improved the over all quality of what I can offer my students. (Class times, days of classes, number of classes, etc.)

[dojo]

I don't have a school of my own, but I would rent some space in the school sports halls as my sensei does. In my country we don't have too many dojos in their proper building, almost all instructors rent some space. I wouldn't be able to spend too much at the beginning, so I'd use a small hall and then expand to something bigger.

Best of luck with the project. some very nice tips were given here ;)

[Guyver84]

I am a new member on this site. I am a 1st Dan in Moo Duk Kwan. I have a dream of owning my own school one day. I have already drew up a floorplan. I want to have my school built that way I can get it the way I like it. I wasn't going to open the school anytime soon. I am only 22 years old and I only have 6 years of training and 3 years teaching experience. I was thinking about opening the school when I was a 4th or 5th Dan Black Belt. I do know that you have to start small and work you way up till you can get a bigger or better school. Unless you given a school by your Master. That is how my Master got her schools started. Her Master gave her one of his schools. So thats another way to get started. I have a degree in human services and I am working on a degree in business administration. I hope to use them to manage my school better when I open it.

If you are looking to open a school there are a few things you should check into:

You should make sure you open your school in a good location because that could make or break you. Do you want to start from scratch or do you want to buy a existing business. I am sure there are gyms and dance studios out there for rent or to buy.

Try to find cheap equipment but not at the cost of good quality.

Try to make it affordable for your students. You might actually get more students if your prices are lower than your competitors.

You diffently have to have a business plan to you can have a good organized and good planned business.

Those are a few things I have learned. I know I don't have much experience least not as much as some of you. But we can learn from everyone's ideas.

I actually plan on building a apartment upstairs of my school when I get it built. I plan on living upstairs and opening my school all week long. This question is could work as a full time instructor and make enough money to survive? Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions about that? Can I survive on being a Martial Arts Instructor? How much profit can you get from running a dojang? I guess it all depends on the money coming in.

Thanks for your time.

[Guyver84]

I am sorry about the last post I posted. I was kind of in a hurry because I have to eat and run to class. I can't be late for class because my instructor in out of state and I am opening the school while he is a way. So please forgive my bad spelling and grammer.

Thanks.

[krhodes31]

Being organized and having great time management skills can help you earn much more than "a living" teaching martial arts.

There is a fine line between being professional and being a McDojo. If you are a great teacher and operate professionally your students will love you and your competition will hate you. If you operate with the "McDojo Mentality" of do what ever to make the buck$ and you will be hated by both your competition and your students.

I could e-mail you some useful things like checklists for opening a school, daily, weekly and monthly sheets, if you send me your e-mail address in a private message.

I can tell you that getting more students by having the lowest price is never the answer to success as a martial arts teacher. I know instructors who teach for free and have never had more than 15 students at a time.

[DARKSON]

Thanks again to all who have offered advise!

[KungFuGirl]

We opened in a gymnastics studio Oct. 1st last year. We have 65 students now and gross 2500 a month before expenses. If we had tried to open a storefront location, we would probably be out of business already ;) We profit about 1800 a month and it supports our family of five. Don't put out all the expense if you don't have to. Sure we would love to have a store front location and all the bells and whistles, but when you have a huge chunk of money, it's easy to spend it on things like advertising very quickly without much results. If you are willing to start small and grow, you see what works and what doesn't. Just my cents, I'm sure there are those who have thrown 30 thousand in and been successful. However I have a feeling that most have done it slow and steady, paying as you go.

[DARKSON]

What types of businesses have you school owners opened? Corporations, partnerships, sole proprietorships?

[HapkidOist]

sorry repeat.

[HapkidOist]

I myself have been working on getting a new studio opened. Right now I am working on a grant package for small business start up. I have done a business plan and have done all the leg work I could, checking out the local studios. I have found that the average tuition cost are between $95 - $170 a month for 3 to 4 days a week of training, an average of 2 hours a day. I want to open a full time studio, 6 days a week, 10 am till 9 pm. This is how we have always done things. It is difficult getting the funding.
One major issue you want to keep in mind is your out going expenses. Remember that until you have a profit that at the least covers your expenses, that cost has to be covered from somewhere. Example; if you have to pay studio rent (even if it is only a few hundred a month) you have to be able to pay this from day one to just keep the doors open. Now lets not forget the monthly operating expenses, i.e. water, utilities, phone. These things have to be paid every month from day one. Do you have a way to cover these costs every month? Is it going to come out of your regular pay check, if you are going to work another job? Can you afford to pay the studio costs and your home expenses?
My start up costs total about $30,000 for good stuff. This is including the renovation costs for any place I get to make it suitable for martial arts training. As well, like I said it is for good stuff. Lets face it. If a person walks into a studio and it looks good they are more apt to choose it over a place that looks run down or pieced together. You have to be visually marketable.

To the point, when you open a new business what do you really need to account for?
You need to take into consideration all of your expenses for opening the studio as well as all the operating cost for the first year. This also should include an income for you for year one as well as any employee costs.
It is awesome when people can find free or next to free studio space to utilize until you have the money to get something better. But the reality is that most people want more or can not find these free or relatively inexpensive locals.

Here is a breakdown of what I am looking for from a grant agency. Keep in mind I am not looking to open a small studio. My school would be my job. It is also only what I am asking for and my justifications for the amount I am looking for. I will take what ever I get. But, in reality to open a new business regardless of what you are doing it takes more than $30 or $50 thousand just to get it going unless it is more of a hobby type pursuit.

This is based on the suggestions of a grant assistance agency I am signed up with...
http://www.usagovernmentgrants.org/Government_Grants.html

"Grant Information

A Breakdown of Monies Desired:

1. 1 years studio income (partial) - * $
2. 1 years employee salary - ** $
3. 1 years studio rent $
4. Initial start-up supplies - *** $
5. Studio renovation costs - **** $
6. 1 year operating expenses - ***** $
7. 1 year of liability insurance $
8. 1 year of advertising and marketing costs - ***** $
9. 1 year of office supply cost - ****** $


Total cost asking for: $

* Annotates specific details about each item.

This is the cost asked for to operate a studio for the first two years, until a student base is established and a profit is made.

* The Specific Details About Each Marked Item.

# 1 1 years studio income (partial) - *
I am asking for a partial amount of the second years projected income to cover my living expenses for the first year.

# 2 1 years employee salary - **
I will only have one paid employee; a junior of mine who will also be given commission based on the amount of students he enrolls, as well as income from private instruction classes he may teach.

# 4 Initial start-up supplies - ***These are the supplies that are needed to not only open a studio, but also make it very marketable and competitive in my consumer base by having up-to-date equipment, which is practical in its application as well as inviting to a potential customer based upon first impression. These supplies include but are not limited to: Floor mats, wall mirrors, protective sparring gear, student uniforms, initial office supplies and furniture….

# 5 Studio renovation costs - ****
This includes the cost of any renovations to the rental space that may be required to make it suitable for martial arts training, and as with expense point #4 it will further build on the studio’s aesthetic influence to attract students upon their initial visit.

# 6 1 year operating expenses - *****
This is to include expenses like the utilities, water, studio phone, cell phone, extra supplies i.e. patches and uniforms. (These items are in constant supply and demand above all other supplies and have a significant turn around)

# 8 1 year of advertising and marketing costs - *****
They say that the best advertising is through “word of mouth”, but before this, one must first attract a consumer base to wow and impress. This will cover things such as but not limited to; business cards, store front signage, flyers, mailers, yellow pages ads, penny saver ads. From all of the different types of advertising and marketing ideas, call in and walk in potential students will narrow down the most successful ideas for continued use.

# 9 1 year of office supply cost - ******
This is intended for items such as stationary and stationary supplies to include, but not limited to; paper, ink cartridges, custom pens, certificate papers, traditional stamps……


Our Goals & Objectives

Currently our association headquarters is located in South Korea. Our headquarters will be relocated and this school will become the headquarters of our association, the “International Hap Ki Do Korea Association”. As the headquarters we will be the “Home Base of Operations” For all of our existing schools and for any to come.
Our goals and objectives are more than to just share martial arts techniques. We are about building a better person as a whole, sharing the philosophies, language and culture of the Korean people to the American public and in time to the rest of the world. As well, we will teach our techniques and fighting philosophies with the military, local and government law enforcement agencies, private security agencies as well as senior citizens self-defense and woman’s self-defense classes.
In achieving the first, “Building a better person as a whole”, we accomplish this by strengthening or instilling personal discipline, self confidence, and better overall health. This is beneficial to more than just young children and teens; adults can greatly benefit in this as well. As well, the health benefits a vigorous martial arts workout has to offer can help in a students overall health. These benefits include a stronger heart, stronger joints and muscles, more flexible joints and muscles and with better overall health come quicker healing time, stronger immune system and a better overall outlook on life. This aspect can be especially beneficial to adult students.
Along with the aforementioned, we develop a sense of moral responsibilities and social equality. In the studio, we are all the same. Everyone must work as hard as they can to attain their goals and must rely on one another in doing so, regardless of race, sexuality or any orientation. This attitude is stressed out of the studio as well as in it. Students benefit with increases to their self image, more personal confidence at home and in the workplace. The moral development, self discipline and self confidence instilled in students help to steer children and young teens away from groups and associations that can be detrimental to their social development. With potentially dangerous and lethal techniques we teach, it is important that each and every student is taught a set of moral guidelines to go along with the knowledge they attain. The martial artist carries their knowledge with them for life. This makes it important that a martial artist develops a unique mindset. We must have more patience, compassion and tolerance than the average person. Since we are capable of more, we must be more aware of ourselves and our limitations. We strive to teach this.
In the area of Korean language, culture and philosophies we try to expose our students and the world to these aspects of Korea and their people. As part of our training we teach the Korean language, fighting philosophies and history of Korea.
Achieving our second goal, our techniques are combative in nature and our fighting philosophies are suitable for military, local and government law enforcement agencies, private security agencies as well as the civilian populace. Hap Ki Do is known world wide as an elite and effective martial art. The techniques we teach to these organizations are more streamlined so that the years of training put in by civilians are not necessary, yet just as effective. They will help any soldier, law enforcement or security personnel survive in the life threatening situations they may find themselves in, though the moral applications are left to the employing organizations.
Our woman’s and senior citizen self defense programs are oriented specifically for the situations that they may find themselves facing at any moment. Our woman’s program teaches rape and abduction prevention, situational awareness and self defense techniques that would work for any woman regardless of age or size.
Our senior citizen self defense program also includes self defense techniques that are suitable for men or women of any age, including basic self defense techniques with the cane and situational awareness training.
Finally by the end of our second year our plan is to open another school for a senior student to run, and then every two years there after we will open schools for any qualified students, giving business opportunities to those who desire to run their own studios and giving back to the community.

Staff Bios

Association Director, Grand Master Lee, Jung Bai, 9th Dan

Grand Master Lee has been a practicing martial artist for over 50 years. He began his martial arts training at the age of 12 under the recognized founder of Hap Ki Do, Grand Master Choi, Yong Sul, attaining the rank of 7th degree black belt under him, and in 1984 attained the rank of 9th degree Grand Master under Grand Master Ji, Han Jae.
During his distinguished martial arts career he has been a five time Golden Gloves boxer, five time national Korean knife throwing champion and has also studied in other various forms of empty hand martial arts and weapons. As well Grand Master Lee has owned and operated martial arts schools around the world, taught various law enforcement agencies in the U.S. and abroad, (serving as the Chief instructor for the F.B.I. in the early 70s) and at one point has been a member of the Ecuadorian Presidential Security. He currently oversees our association headquarters which is located in South Korea and is the founder and president of a small consulting company “Lee International Consulting Co.”

International Hap Ki Do Korea Association Senior Instructor, Daniel W. MCCullar, 4th Dan

I have trained in the martial arts since a young age. My martial arts training covers multiple martial arts systems & weapons throughout my martial arts career. I chose Hap Ki Do as my base art because I strongly believe in its techniques, teachings and philosophies.
In my careers, I have been a Security Specialist in the Air Force, a Professional Martial Arts Instructor, a Special Police Officer, a Fugitive Recovery Agent, & a Bouncer; all in which I have had the need to use the skills & techniques of Hap Ki Do, successfully. The philosophies & discipline I have learnt in Hap Ki Do have helped to develop me as a person & to guide me in my life & my dealings with people. It has help to make me a better man.
In my military career I wore many shoes. My first job was as a General Purpose Vehicle Mechanic. This remained my primary job during my military tenure, but the majority of my training and my war time responsibilities were as a Security Specialist. I began my training as a Security Specialist while stationed at Osan Air Base, South Korea. My responsibilities as a security specialist included site recon and security, rover team detail, Hand-to-Hand combat instructor for various military branches and assistant field medic. In 1998 I attended and graduated from the Air Force, Airman’s Leadership Academy. This put me into positions of authority and responsibility. I was a shop supervisor as well as a valued member of the Customer Service team.
After I was honorably discharged from my second enlistment in the Air Force I became certified as a full time Martial Arts Instructor while waiting for my slot at the Police Academy. My Grand Master’s responsibilities kept him out of the studio a large amount of the time, which left me in complete charge of his studio. At any given moment I was responsible for on an average of 35 to 60 students and junior instructors at a time. As well I was responsible for the daily business side of the studio. These responsibilities included, but were not limited to advertising and marketing, ordering supplies, signing up new students, reviewing current contracts and resigning current students, organizing and executing local demonstrations and heading up any special activities that were in-house.
As a Special Police Officer I had the same daily responsibilities as a regular county or city police officer, except we were not paid as much as our counterparts. We dealt with citizens in the community on a daily basis as ambassadors of the city. I stayed in this position for a period of one year until I chose to move onto Fugitive Recovery.
As a Fugitive Recovery Agent or Bounty Hunter I was employed by various Bondsmen and charged by the courts to find arrest and return fugitives back to their corresponding legal jurisdictions.
Contrary to popular belief this job took a great deal of finesse and ingenuity. We were paid on a sole commission basis. I stayed in this job for 2 years until my Grand Master gave me permission to move to California and open a new studio and relocate our association headquarters.
At various times I have chosen to take on extra work as a Bouncer at local bars. The responsibilities assigned to me were simple and direct. I was to maintain a safe and enjoyable atmosphere, address any issues that may have come up with the establishment’s patrons and employees. I have had to deal with various different groups of people to include bikers, gang members, military personnel and the average man or woman who patroned the establishment.

International Hap Ki Do Korea Association Instructor, Robert B. Schnoor, 3rd Dan

Other than myself, Robert Schnoor will be the only paid employee and my primary instructor for the first 2 full years. With the assistance of myself any Grand Master Lee, after the end of the second year our plan is to open another studio that Robert himself will run. This will give him an opportunity to support himself, be a business owner and his own boss.
Robert’s martial arts training began while his family was stationed at a U.S. Army base in South Korea. He also began his training at an early age, and attained the rank of first degree black belt while training in Korea. After his family left Korea he took a hiatus from the martial arts and joined the U.S. Navy. In time he was stationed at Norfolk Naval Air Station. This is where he joined our studio and eventually attained his 3rd Dan and instructor’s certification.
In his careers, Robert has served in the Navy, served as private security, been a full time martial arts instructor and at times has found himself filling the shoes of a bouncer. In the field of private security Robert served as “Head of Security” for various local up-and coming music groups in the Colorado Springs area. While stationed in the U.S. Navy he was tasked with training personnel from various services in Hand-to-Hand combative techniques. Most recently he taught and trained at our headquarters studio in South Korea. As well, Robert has at times been a Bouncer at local bars. His duties and responsibilities were similar in nature to my own. "

[Robv82]

Thanks Rob!

You just saved me 600 bucks on a ring! Please explain your training floor setup plans. Sounds very efficient.

This link was posted on another forum. I don't know about the quality but the price sure looks good.

http://shop.1asecure.com/prod.cfm?ProdID=273399&StID=6519

[Mike Puett]

For those like myself that already have a career and cannot justify opening a full-time martial arts school but love to teach, there are several options available and worth looking into. I taught a class for the last year through a community program that allowed us to use the gymnasiums at several local elementary and junior high schools free of charge. Unfortunately, I have left that program and am now in the process of seeking out other opporunities to continue teaching.

I posted a request on Craigslist.com regarding space to rent for a martial arts class and have had surprising results. I even received replies from prospective students that saw the ad. There seem to be a wide variety of spaces available as inexpensive as $25/night. Other potential considerations are renting a room in a health club, starting a university club, teaching through the YMCA or other community program. Another is contacting similar minded individuals and combining efforts and funds to open a studio and share the costs, or renting a room from an existing studio. Lots of different opportunities if you're willing to do the leg work. Also, I've had great luck finding quality used equipment on Ebay and craigslist, or you can set up a wholesale account with most retailers such as Century that enable you to get equipment at about half the retail price.

One question I had for those that have gone down this path - now that I am on my own I'm assuming that I should probably get some sort of liability insurance to protect myself. Can anyone suggest a good source for insurance and what would a typical annual payment be? I won't need property protection, just person liability against being sued. Also, would it be worthwhile to start an LLC or non-profit organization to teach under? I'm not in it to make money and will only charge my students enough to cover my expenses. The class will be relatively small with probably 10 to 30 students. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated!

[DARKSON]

This link was posted on another forum. I don't know about the quality but the price sure looks good.

http://shop.1asecure.com/prod.cfm?ProdID=273399&StID=6519

Are they serious?:eek: 1k for a ring:eek: Thanks for the link!:bow:

[Robv82]

You're welcome.

[DragonMind]

Are they serious?:eek: 1k for a ring:eek: Thanks for the link!:bow:I must have missed something. When I clicked on the link it had $2,500 for the economy ring

[Robv82]

I must have missed something. When I clicked on the link it had $2,500 for the economy ring

Scroll to the right and it has "your price 999.00" But there is also a list of things "not included."

[DragonMind]

Got it, thanks.

Sheesh, I use a wide screen display and they still managed to extend past the right edge. What pitiful web page design.