View Full Version : Modern Jujutsu and weaponry
Does your modern style of jujutsu implement training in weaponry (other than defenses)? Why or why not? ; If so, which weapons ; If not, what reasons?
Does BJJ count as modern?
I did a JJJ for a little while and it didn't use weapons, unfortunately.
Does BJJ count as modern?
Sure does!
Then the only weapons we used were bad breath (chemical weapon) and ringworm (biological weapon). Very modern.
But seriously, I would have liked to have learned how BJJ could deal with a stick or a knife. I guess Dog Brothers are the guys for that kind of training.
I just began training in swordplay (don't really know what to call it...) at my club recently. It looks like fun so far. While the movements complement the hand to hand aspect well, it seems, the focus on the blade give it an entirely different feel for me. But I'm just 3 weeks into it...
Does being modern while trying to be (or simulate) traditional count? :confused:
Does being modern while trying to be (or simulate) traditional count? :confused:
Do you feel that it counts? If so, what does it count for (if not, why not...)?
What matters to me is what you meant by modern. Just being newly developed OR trying to deal with recent martial arts issues within the style(firearms, the law perhaps)?
I think my club is more or less representative of contemporary jujutsu clubs (or styles) in North America, respectable ones at least (no chi balls). But this is my first martial art so you can take that with a grain of salt...
I'll have to say, reluctantly, that we are modern, but we train in what we think was the same form taught in 'traditional' styles, like most jujutsu clubs.
Tell me if I'm wrong about most modern jujutsu clubs training in traditional ways.
We train with kubotan, fan and limited sword. Kubotan and fan we keep really basic, the idea is to learn to use common objects as weapons. The sword, we learn just three cuts, but really we learn those to set up the disarms we practice. The deal here, is we are trying to work on some really basic princibles with the sword disarm, that should work in many other situations. We also do disarms from knife and gun as well. If you like working with the weapons, and want to do more than the simple stuff we do, we would rather you go find a style that specialises in them. (then bring back what you learned)
Tell me if I'm wrong about most modern jujutsu clubs training in traditional ways.
Wouldnt that mean you are training in a traditional style??
Cliff Hargrave
10-13-2006, 19:34
Then the only weapons we used were bad breath (chemical weapon) and ringworm (biological weapon). Very modern.
You forgot the sweat activated gi funk.
What matters to me is what you meant by modern.
Martial arts that were formed after the Japanese Meiji era are modern or "gendai"; ones that were formed before that period are Koryu or "old flow". Traditional doesn't necessarily mean old in this case. Mincing words, yes, but that is what I mean.
Although mostly focussed on defences against weapons, we do train with weapons. And to defend against a weapon you need an attacker that knows how to handle a weapon.
Main weapons are the hanbo and tanto. On a more advanced level we'll also use the jo, the bokken and sometimes defences against ropes (strangulation) and guns (close distance, of course).
When I trained in the UK the club's weapons bag included baseball bats, chainlocks and a frying pan!
Brian R. VanCise
10-14-2006, 11:30
You forgot the sweat activated gi funk.
I certainly have not forgotten! :laugh:
Musubi Dojo
10-14-2006, 18:18
I think teaching stick, knife and even flexible weapons is relevant today. Sword work not so much....
My jujtsu instructor taught hanbo techniques. I studied other weapons from the Toga Kore Ryu.
Cheers
c
James O'Neill
10-14-2006, 19:01
We train the knife allot - short stick (Dan Bong), crook top cane & sometimes the belt / rope too. But mostly knife. It seems everyone's got a knife - from the homeless to you're average Joe, a blade is so common it is mucho importante' to know how to use one & defend against one...
Chokushin
10-15-2006, 11:46
In my dojo we practice using Knife, Flexible Weapons i.e. Kusari, Sword, and Sticks of varying lengths i.e. yawara/tessen, 2ft. ASP ( I'm an LEO ), 3' hanbo, 4' Jo , 6'ft Bo and Projecitle Weapons i.e. Knife Throwing, Shaken. I will occasionally take one some of my higher ranking students to the range.
Having said all of that the main focus is unarmed Jujutsu. However I will sometimes hold seminars on any of the above or dedicate one of our 4 hour classes to fighting with and/or defending against one of the above mentioned. I usually do so when we have a smaller class a) so we have enough equipment as only the higher ranking students buy their own weapons and b) so it is easier to answer questions and maintain a safe enviorment with the proper level of focus. This last point is more when we have lower level students participating.
Tsutsumi Ryu (originally koryu but has been modernised in the past 50 years)
We train against weapons - knife, short stick, long stick (hanbo), sword (as a long weapon), pistol in the kyu grades up to 2nd kyu.
1st kyu has weapon defences of knife, short stick and pistol and a grading of basics of sword work
1st Dan
1) defences against knife, short stick and sword (as a long weapon), pistol and rifle
2) Kata to show relationship between sword and unarmed techniques (Kentai Ichi no Kata)
3) free fight unarmed against knife and stick (we use tightly rolled paper as the weapons as the attacker has to score solid hits to pass as the attacker)
2nd Dan
1) defences against knife and short stick.
2) use of the tanbo to defend with using only locks against punching attacks
3) defend against thrusts with a jo - same defences for spear and bayonet attacks)
4) free fight knife against knife ( once again using paper weapons as in 1st Dan)
3rd Dan
1) defences against knife and stick
2) use of keibo (police baton) for defences against punching or striking attacks
3) use the jo to defend against striking and kicking attacks - locking or thgrowing techniques only.
4) free fight stick against knife ( once again using paper weapons as in 1st Dan)
5) use of the manriki kusari against a variety of attacks. Locking and throwing techniques only
6) Hojo Jutsu
The weapons are all from the original style.
Greg Palmer
Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu
If it is a modern style, why teach defense against Swords? I can see the value of Tanto/Knife, Kubotan and even the staff as these are weapons that the practitioner may come across. It's unlikely they'll be confronted by a sword - Baseball bat maybe?
Also, if you are defending against a sword, where does the sword technique come from? Unless they come from a valid sword style, they tend to be too easy on the defender. They moves and tip position all tend to give the defender a chance to grab the wrists of the assailant. This simply would not happen in reality as most sword styles I'm aware of are taught to keep the tip between you and your opponent.
No offense intended btw, just curious.
I don't train open hand but I'd love to have a match up to see if my thoughts pan out.
My program of instruction includes stick, cane, ink pen, and for my black belts I insist that they get some sort of firearms (pistol) certification.
Jeff Cook
If it is a modern style, why teach defense against Swords? I can see the value of Tanto/Knife, Kubotan and even the staff as these are weapons that the practitioner may come across. It's unlikely they'll be confronted by a sword - Baseball bat maybe?
I agree with you entirely. I believe that the sword defences were developed for those times you came across an unskilled person. Against a skilled person you would well and truely have your work cut out for you and it is better to go down fighting. We train them now to show defences against a long weapon. If you can pull it off with a sword then your chances are better against a bat etc. It also saves on supplying a whole load of different weapons that have the same or similar defences. We use the sword for Kentai Ichi no Kata (Sword and Body in Accord) training so people will eventually get training blades anyway.
Greg Palmer
Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu
I agree with you entirely. I believe that the sword defences were developed for those times you came across an unskilled person. Against a skilled person you would well and truely have your work cut out for you and it is better to go down fighting. We train them now to show defences against a long weapon. If you can pull it off with a sword then your chances are better against a bat etc. It also saves on supplying a whole load of different weapons that have the same or similar defences. We use the sword for Kentai Ichi no Kata (Sword and Body in Accord) training so people will eventually get training blades anyway.
Greg Palmer
Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu
Indeed - I was curious. With regards to Muto-dori, I know the topic was done to death on E-budo but it is an interesting one. After I read the threads on the subject, I tried it in our dojo against our least experienced student. He won every time. An experienced swordsman would make you a shish-kebab! :D
With regards to Muto-dori....I tried it in our dojo against our least experienced student. He won every time. An experienced swordsman would make you a shish-kebab! :D
The heiho and taisabaki should be the same. What were you doing against them?
I want to reinforce what Russ is saying. There are principles/waza which can be successful against a sword-weilding opponent. However, if your timing/distance is off, and/or you do not have the athleticism to execute said waza, chances are you will be a screaming kebab in short order.
Remember, each combative scenario has to be evaluated in its totality. If I see a threat approaching and he has a sheathed sword, I will manage the combat space much differently than if he approaches with sword in hand. You have to look at battlefield tactics IN COMBINATION with individual waza to understand the possibilities of success.
I recommend you practice your waza by entering prior to saya banari, and see if that does not change your outlook on this. Good luck!
Jeff Cook
We teach use of, and defense from, all of the kobudo weapons. Sai, nunchaku, tonfa, tanto, etc. Not because we expect a sai weilding maniac to come after you, but it helps to learn how to move and shape your body. It also reinfornces the notion that defense from all of these things should be no different than anything else.
We also are heavy on sword work. Again not because we expect someone to come at you with a sword, but in this case all of the principles, and therefore techniques, of aikijujutsu come from the sword. As it was developed with the sword-weilder vs empty hand in mind, and later translated to empty hand vs empty and/or some other weapon vs empty hand, we find it important to teach the origins of the techniques.
Absolutely. This tidies up my earlier statement nicely.
In regards to modern combatives and old school martial arts, Mr. Hunter Armstrong has written some excellent articles about the two intermingling.
One of them can be found here:
Approach - Close - Entry (http://www.hoplology.com/articles_detail.asp?id=3)
The picture on the top looks to be Ikkaku ryu jutte.
Remember, each combative scenario has to be evaluated in its totality. If I see a threat approaching and he has a sheathed sword, I will manage the combat space much differently than if he approaches with sword in hand. You have to look at battlefield tactics IN COMBINATION with individual waza to understand the possibilities of success.
Jeff Cook
johan smits
10-26-2006, 06:19
We practice a form of jujutsu which has it's roots in the Meiji period at oldest. We use weapons for training (bokken mainly in some very basic kata), same for kodachi. Further we use hanbo and tanto. All really basic stuff. But we do learn how to use these weapons also (again in a basic manner)
One of the main things is that we train with the idea that the attacker although he attacks unarmed has a knife. This makes a big difference between what we do and other modern jujutsu styles I have seen.
Best regards,
Johan Smits
Absolutely. This tidies up my earlier statement nicely.
In regards to modern combatives and old school martial arts, Mr. Hunter Armstrong has written some excellent articles about the two intermingling.
One of them can be found here:
Approach - Close - Entry (http://www.hoplology.com/articles_detail.asp?id=3)
The picture on the top looks to be Ikkaku ryu jutte.
I can only reply within the context of our dojo. Approaching somebody unarmed/weilding a shorter weapon from Hasso makes no sense. We simply advance in Chudan or Jodan and wait for them to commit before responding. That way, they have to get past our kissaki.
Looking at that picture, his kissaki is very low towards the back which would deprive him of the initial tip speed to obviate his opponents reach. Obviously, position of Hasso varies from Ryu to Ryu. Also, from that picture, the swordsmen should be able to adjust his cut to take out the wrist of the Jutte weilder.
I'm not saying it's impossible, just very difficult.
I can only reply within the context of our dojo. Approaching somebody unarmed/weilding a shorter weapon from Hasso makes no sense. We simply advance in Chudan or Jodan and wait for them to commit before responding. That way, they have to get past our kissaki.
Looking at that picture, his kissaki is very low towards the back which would deprive him of the initial tip speed to obviate his opponents reach. Obviously, position of Hasso varies from Ryu to Ryu. Also, from that picture, the swordsmen should be able to adjust his cut to take out the wrist of the Jutte weilder.
I'm not saying it's impossible, just very difficult.
I have to disagree. Why?
Hasso is faster here simply because the sword has less distance to travel to the target, so it makes more sense to me to take that kamae.
Usually, a cut from jodan has more power but it is farther away, thus not as thrifty. While the kamae in that photo is not perfect (the angle seems a bit low) it is a legitimate high speed attack at close range.
What you are talking about in terms of "tip speed" is purely how fast the sword will end up moving over time and not how fast it can get to the target. In this case, the physical distance of the arms and sword are constant no matter how close or how far you are away from the target as a whole. The distance they have to travel to the target from the kamae, however, determines how fast they will get to the target. Therefore the distance of your position, your timing & targeting are the variables important to the kamae you take; thus jodan has more acrued speed (as in how fast it will end up traveling) when it strikes but it will have arrived at target slower because of the distance of the kamae. Truly, I would much rather prefer a jodan or chudan kamae because it is easier to pass when the strike is made- part of the reason the kamae was added to the standard ZenKenRen cirriculum when SMR seiteigata was created for them.
Hasso has several variations from ryu to ryu- some of them not calling it hasso at all but something completely different. Each one is just as correct to the others in relationship to its heiho.
I have to disagree. Why?
Hasso is faster here simply because the sword has less distance to travel to the target, so it makes more sense to me to take that kamae.
Usually, a cut from jodan has more power but it is farther away, thus not as thrifty. While the kamae in that photo is not perfect (the angle seems a bit low) it is a legitimate high speed attack at close range.
Hasso has several variations from ryu to ryu- some of them not calling it hasso at all but something completely different. Each one is just as correct to the others in relationship to its heiho.
Obviously, there are differences - hence my caveat of it being my opinion.
Different strokes etc :wink2:
Sadly, I don't have the chance to try muto dori against a proper open hand practicioner. I'm sure it would be an interesting experience.
Does your modern style of jujutsu implement training in weaponry (other than defenses)? Why or why not? ; If so, which weapons ; If not, what reasons?
Since my school primarily teaches Hakkoryu (Hakko-Denshin-Ryu), we're "modern" by definition since Hakkoryu is gendai. Our curriculum includes offensive and defensive tactics for Japanese traditional weapons and their modern equivalents (sword, staffs/sticks/batons/cane, knives, fan, umbrella, tonfa/side-handle baton, metsubushi, etc.), as well as fixed-ammo firearms (no Japanese arquebuses lying around). In addition, we teach modern weapons like ASP and OC spray.
IMO, running a jujutsu school in L.A. without regular instruction in weapons offenses as well as defenses could be considered both negligent (violent-crime stats involving weapons speak for themselves) and not true to the history of the art since samurai invariably encountered well-armed and trained enemy counterparts or others with nasty weapons. On the flip side, L.A. attracts its share of weapons-training experts and gurus, so while there are a lot of oppotunities to learn about weapons, it's big-time "caveat emptor" out here!
We're also a Jikishin-Kai Muso-Jikiden-Eishin-Ryu dojo, and Japanese sword offensive tactics can be applied to non-sword implements. And, as pointed out earlier in this thread, Japanese sword arts and jujutsu complement one another in terms of body movement, techniques and strategy.
Mert
Brian Dugger
02-22-2007, 06:40
We don't train with 'weapons' as often as we should. We usually 'break spades' when there are priniciple issues with extention, center, and movement. Other occasions which 'weapons' are used in our training would be for space and timing issues. The group is still small and 'young' (not chronologically speaking) with regard to their empty hand technique. The one or two 'seniors' in the dojo have understood for awhile now that once a doka or jutsuka has something else in their hand application is the same as in 'empty hand'. So, while I'm envious ya'll have groups with depth which can train with 'weapons' on a more consistent basis, the point being emphasized here is one that was repeated to me over and over in a karate style with 'kobujitsu/kobudo' cirriculum. What good is a 'weapon' if the 'empty hand' is not well founded or forged?
There is always the 'primary weapon' we must constantly and consistently keep honed and balanced before any others. If this is not, the others are just relics and home decor.
. . . What good is a 'weapon' if the 'empty hand' is not well founded or forged?
There is always the 'primary weapon' we must constantly and consistently keep honed and balanced before any others. If this is not, the others are just relics and home decor.
Agree Brian --- Must practice backhand shuto and nukitsuke in much the same manner (I learned via iaido that I was leaning too far forward at the waist in my empty-hand kamae -- i.e. got drawn onto toes from the momentum of the sword draws)!
Brian Dugger
02-23-2007, 07:49
We train with kubotan, fan and limited sword. Kubotan and fan we keep really basic,. . .
Uh oh, Mert another kubotan reference (see valentine's day regardin martial artists pick up lines)
. . .the idea is to learn to use common objects as weapons. . .
Agreed. What's more common than what we're born with?
James O'Neill
02-23-2007, 11:27
We introduce the student to weapons right from the begining of training because a weapon is just a tool. Humans are tool users. And there are plenty of examples of completely unskilled people successfully defending themselves with everything from kitchen knives to ball bats...
Plus, allot of times it is easier to teach someone a fundamental skill, like footwork for example, using a "prop" if you will; like a stick or rubber knife... Not sure why that is exactly - maybe because they have to do a bunch of things at once & just 'do' the stepping instead of thinking about it. I remember one of those light bulbs going on for me when I was first learning - I just could not get a particular joint lock - but when I was shown the same move using a walking cane, I got it right away.
And then there is the Fun Factor :D - it is allot of fun to don eye protection and try to carve up your training partners with a rubber knife - or try to keep them from doing it to you. One of my favorite ways to spend a Saturday afternoon actually :laugh:
I prefer rosewood claves over kubotan since they're pretty to look at, make you the life of the party within a drum circle, and the LEO's don't have to sweat over whether or not they're classifiable as clubs under California law.
What about flexible weapons? They seem to fit nicely into jujutsu (or taijutsu) techniques.
Attached is a quick shot of my "taijutsu-day-pack." These are a few of the weapons I train with that easy to use in a grappling situation.
I added a list to go along with it, from top to bottom
Tanto
Tessen
Kogusoku
Jutte
Hishigi (2)
Torinawa (2)
Musubi Dojo
02-28-2007, 13:02
What about flexible weapons? They seem to fit nicely into jujutsu (or taijutsu) techniques.
Attached is a quick shot of my "taijutsu-day-pack." These are a few of the weapons I train with that easy to use in a grappling situation.
I added a list to go along with it, from top to bottom
Tanto
Tessen
Kogusoku
Jutte
Hishigi (2)
Torinawa (2)
Looks like fun!
Don Cunningham did a seminar on the Tessen, Jutte and Torinawa when he was up here last summer. (I think got them right) Everyone really enjoyed!
I especially enjoyed the rope work. Much fun.
I've also studied some tsuri fundo (sp) stuff. Love it. We use knotted ropes (the weighted chains are prohibited weapons in Ontario)
Striking with weighted rope is vastly amusing, just wear some googles and a cup the first few times..... :D
Cheers
c
Brian Dugger
02-28-2007, 15:53
Mert and I are going to develop waza this weekend using wet hachimaki. We'll report on it later.:thumbup1:
Musubi Dojo
02-28-2007, 16:09
Mert and I are going to develop waza this weekend using wet hachimaki. We'll report on it later.:thumbup1:
Sounds like an ancient locker room art.....:laugh:
Looks like fun!
tsuri fundo (sp) stuff. Love it. We use knotted ropes (the weighted chains are prohibited weapons in Ontario)
Striking with weighted rope is vastly amusing, just wear some googles and a cup the first few times..... :D
Cheers
c
Kusari fundo- chain weight. Good stuff. I use a rope with a rubber "gasket" on the end for training.
Musubi Dojo
03-01-2007, 08:13
Kusari fundo- chain weight. Good stuff. I use a rope with a rubber "gasket" on the end for training.
Do you weight one end only?
The weapons we used were both ends and had another name as well that I could never remember.
The rubber for training is brilliant!
c
Do you weight one end only?
The weapons we used were both ends and had another name as well that I could never remember.
The rubber for training is brilliant!
c
This is actually just one type that we use and it is attached to a cord, not a chain (although I was aloof to that in my earlier post, I meant the rubber-weight was for training- in place of an iron or steel weight).
Yes, the rubber is much more forgiving than the real thing. It still hurts and leaves a bruise, but usually doesn't break anything.
The picture below gives you a few that we use.
Dylan Z. Thomas
03-28-2008, 12:29
In our school, besides learning to defend against blunt insturments (bats, clubs, sticks, hammers and wrenches, Oh MY!) knives, machette, pistols, long arms, bayonet attacks (I know, but it works for thrusting pool que as well) and garroting.
We train with knives, clubs, pistol and long arm to emty hand transitions and weapons retention, Kubatons (Yawara), rolled up magizines and we like to use 550 cord for ensnairment, takedowns, pain complience and strangulations.
You cant walk down the street with a Katana and not get noticed, but I can walk down the street with 2 folding knives, a keychain blade, a peice of 550 cord, a 1911A1 and an umbrella no problem and you are armed to the teeth.
I would love to do real Kenjutsu, but it's not around and i am doing FMA/IMA where I play with some more traditional weapons.
Man Bulwhip would be cool to learn.
Hey I'm new here
and kind of new to martial arts in general.
Maybe this question will sound stupid?
But aren't weapons basically always part of martial arts training?
I mean, at least in defending against them if not learning to use them?
Hey I'm new here
and kind of new to martial arts in general.
Maybe this question will sound stupid?
But aren't weapons basically always part of martial arts training?
I mean, at least in defending against them if not learning to use them?
Some, but not all, dontcha think?
My program of instruction includes stick, cane, ink pen, and for my black belts I insist that they get some sort of firearms (pistol) certification.
Jeff Cook
Cool, think Zebra F 701. http://cgi.ebay.com/ZEBRA-F-701-BALLPOINT-PEN-STAINLESS-STEEL-NEW-MODEL_W0QQitemZ250378515177QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item250378515177&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
Cold steel Sharkie?
I tend to see FMA styles practice more with weapons than many other styles, I think liability law comes into play for many schools. You don't want to train someone you just met in knife technique.
If you take a "Leathal Force Institute" class by Massad Ayoob, they require you to get either a background check done or you must provide a letter from a judge or a police chief in order to take the class. I remember the background check in my area cost less than $20. Firing over 500 rounds in a day was a good experience for me.
Oh ok.
Yeah I guess so.
Sorry, I didn't mean for that to come out wrong in post #45.
Let me explain....
A lot of school do practice with weapons and defenses against weapons. That's true. But, not all have the same extent of weaponry as others- or skill (that goes the same for individuals). From that, the heart of the thread sprung.
The most ancient of organized martial arts, ones that could be truly called military arts, are weapon-based. From that perspective yeah I suppose that truly they are weapon oriented. I am not sure how to put this....but it seems that in our era, the "modern" era, we have related most of those unarmed military arts to sports.
So, how important are weapons to modern Jujutsu?
Mekugi said:
Sorry, I didn't mean for that to come out wrong in post #45.
Let me explain....
A lot of school do practice with weapons and defenses against weapons. That's true. But, not all have the same extent of weaponry as others- or skill (that goes the same for individuals). From that, the heart of the thread sprung.
The most ancient of organized martial arts, ones that could be truly called military arts, are weapon-based. From that perspective yeah I suppose that truly they are weapon oriented. I am not sure how to put this....but it seems that in our era, the "modern" era, we have related most of those unarmed military arts to sports.
So, how important are weapons to modern Jujutsu?
Ok. I get your point I think.
From what I've experienced, mock weapons representing the knife, gun or club seem to be the most relevant to modern (American or British) Jujutsu.
After these "disarming" practice weapons, some schools handle the bo staff or the jo staff.
I never saw anyone actually handle a jutte until maybe 1989. That was because frankly you could barely buy a jutte in this country until that date. Jutte, kusarigama and so forth were stuff we had only heard of, never really had an opportunity to learn.
I was pretty well travelled too, the only other thing really common to see were shuriken (throwing stars) but those were always the common garden variety out of the magazines. Actually we didn't even take them seriously in the least.
In my limited knowledge! I would say that weapons in modern jujutsu have different roles in different kai. For example, there are no weapons forms in the syllabus of the jujutsu that that I study. However, we do train with the bokken and jo (when we have the chance), to help our form. Also we use the yawara for fun and a tanto here and there for reality defense. I have seen a 5th dan in another line of jujutsu who proclaimed himself to be a knife guru but didn't use the slightest tai sabaki. A true modern warrior is carrying a rifle and side arm with a knife for backup, not a shinken, bola or rokushakubo. IMO, any jujutsuka should have familiarity in dealing with a armed person to keep themselves alive if ever needed but I think it is more important to know how to duck and run very quickly if someone pulls a gun or a shinken.
IMO, weapons training is important to jujutsu, not as important as it was 200 years ago. If your art trains allot of weapons all the time, it is probably closer to a hobby than self defense. I enjoy working with weapons, it gives me more self confidence to be aggressive.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.10 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.