Cop takes down a guy.

[Dlee427]

http://www.break.com/index/taken_down_by_vegas_police.html



I was wondering, is this cop using jujutsu techniques? It seems similar to some things I was taught from hakko ryu. You can tell he uses his hands to point to his car and say "You're making me nervous" and then strikes immediately.

[TonyU]

Don't know if it's a specific technique, but that's what I would call a straight arm.
In karate we did practice a kata that had a move almost identical to that. Other than that I don't know.

[AllanJGAnderson]

That was pretty sweet. I liked the end, 'Don't resist. Now put your hands behind or back or your gonna get the tazer'. . . sorta had this 'It put's the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose' vibe to it.

[Musubi Dojo]

Sort of looked like O soto gari using the throat grab/thrust for kusushi.
I liked.

Cheers
c

[Rasputin]

Irimi is your friend.

[Cliff Hargrave]

That made me smile :)

[mvoncannon]

Me too. Nice job on the part of the cop.

[Enyu]

Nice :t2: :laugh:

[David Craik]

I think that was excessive force.














Just kidding. :laugh:

[Dennis Monk]

Just shows how a little violence of action can change a person's mind really quickly. Don't give him the opportunity to make up his mind how he is going to resist you, and he will find himself without the ability to do so.

Cliff, taught me that. :D

[Mark Barlow]

It's definitely used in Akayama Ryu. My Sensei was 5'3" and I saw him take down much bigger guys using it many times.

[David Craik]

Think I saw "The Undertaker" do that before. :D:

[beungood]

OUCH. Can't wait to go back on duty and try that.....

[nirgle]

He used his hands quite deliberately and tactically in my opinion. He drew the suspect's attention first to his outstretched hand. He pulled it back a bit while at the same time he inched his body forward. That put him at just the right distance to make the lunge before the suspect could react against it, or could pull whatever weapon he might have had on him in his back pocket, etc. Good example of the best defense is a good...

[Lame Leopard]

It seems that when something like that happens in Vegas and gets splashed all over the internet, it didn't really stay in Vegas. This was a variation of the kenpo web hand or the kung fu snake or leapard mouth. In this situation it wasn't used to damage the throat. It was a very humane take down. A double leg shoot could have caused the guy to crack his skull.

[Defined]

Hmm, looked good. Not sure it was too smart in that situation though. Suspect could have had a knife in his right hand pocket. Shrug, at least the officer didn't use his gun.

[TonyU]

Hmm, looked good. Not sure it was too smart in that situation though. Suspect could have had a knife in his right hand pocket. Shrug, at least the officer didn't use his gun.
Actually it was very smart. Action is faster then reaction. Also if you'd notice as he struck he also took control of the suspects right hand.

[Jeff C.]

Same trick at the end of Pinan Yondan (Wado version). I used it once in a nightclub; the guy had already "expressed hostile ideations." ;) It is a great way to penetrate to the core of not only his body but also his intent.

It is easy to second-guess an LEO. I would like to know why he jumped a few steps of the use-of-force matrix, but the bottom line is if the guy was not damaged, it was not excessive in my opinion. I did not have my volume turned up - was the perp given verbal commands that he was refusing to obey?

Jeff Cook

[AndrewSimonsen]

He was told repeatedly to take his hand out of his pocket slowly, he did not.

[Jeff C.]

Thanks, Andrew. It definitely was not excessive force, then.

Jeff Cook

[nirgle]

For those who don't have sound or who can't have it on:

Cop: Step to the car, take your hands out of your pockets
(no response)
Cop: Take your hands out of your pockets and step up to my car
(no or inaudible response)
Cop: That's the second time I've asked you, you're making me nervous, take your hands out of your pockets, and step up to my car.
(Inaudable)
Cop: Take your hands out of your pockets and--

... and he stopped midway through his sentence to launch his throat grab.

Once on ground:

Cop: Don't resist, now put your hands behind your back, or you're going to get the tazer.

Pretty calm vocally the whole time even tho he resorted to physical violence.

The clip ends there, so we are probably right to assume the suspect complied at that point. I have no doubt the cop would have used the tazer as the next step. Note, he took the suspect down FIRST and considered the tazer second. Good use of force, I would say. From what I've seen of tazer vids I would much rather be put to the ground with a throat control than by 50,000 volts.

[Defined]

Actually it was very smart. Action is faster then reaction. Also if you'd notice as he struck he also took control of the suspects right hand.


Ahh true. Looked at it again, where I though the guys hand was against the cops abdomen it was actually being controlled.

[TNThomas]

That was a classic takedown. It was done very well. He could have even grabbed the guys face or forehead and still have taken him off his feet. But the way he did it was less violent looking than a face smash takedown and would not be considered inapropriate force. And to think that some people say these techniques won't work! HA :laugh: !!!

[Xuzen]

http://www.break.com/index/taken_down_by_vegas_police.html



I was wondering, is this cop using jujutsu techniques? It seems similar to some things I was taught from hakko ryu. You can tell he uses his hands to point to his car and say "You're making me nervous" and then strikes immediately.

Not jujutsu, aikido technique. Name of technique is SHOMEN-ATE (TM) (http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10a.html). See the similarity?

[Rasputin]

Not jujutsu, aikido technique.

It's all jujutsu.

Or would you be able to direct me to a technique contained within Aikido which is not also found within jujutsu? I am not aware of any, myself.


Thanks.

[AndrewSimonsen]

Obviously ou haven't seen Steven the Seagull's new movies where his akido sends his opponents flying across the room with naught but a tap to the hand. That is a task that no other MA could duplicate.

[Xuzen]

It's all jujutsu.

Or would you be able to direct me to a technique contained within Aikido which is not also found within jujutsu? I am not aware of any, myself.


Thanks.

OK OK OK, aikido (aiki-jujutsu) is a subset of jujutsu. But my first thoughts wrt jujutsu is that of jiu jitsu (the ground grappling type). Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[TonyU]

Same trick at the end of Pinan Yondan (Wado version).

Any video or diagrams to support that? I'm not being critical. It's just that every version I've seen ends with two sets of double shuto ukes (open hand blocks) no matter what changes might have occured throughout the kata.
I would be curious to see that version.

[Jeff C.]

To "support" it, or to "demonstrate" it, Tony? I don't feel the least bit compelled to "support" what Dennis Hill Sensei taught me regarding that kata. If I was still in contact with him, I would ask him. I do understand that the last application is taught differently by others.

The way I was taught: the next to last IS a shuto. The last move, the way I was taught, is to lunge out extended, strike the throat with the palm between the thumb and index finger, immediately contract the hand slightly to grab the trachea, and then allow your stance to "relax" a bit back from the fully extended position.

Toby Threadgill may be a good one to ask about this. To be honest, I never felt it necessary to investigate the differences.

Jeff Cook

[TonyU]

Ok, maybe I came across the wrong way. I don't doubt you, your sensei, or the style.
I really like to see the differences as it relates to the differnet interpretations.
As we know Itosu made the Pinans and the popular theory was that they were made from the higher katas, I personaly like to investigate the Pinans to see if there's a direct corrrelation between them and the higher katas.
For instance, Itosu did not teach gojushiho so some of the seniors got their gojushiho from different sensei as they all shared in their training and techniques. Myahira teaches Tokuda's gojushiho while Nakazato teaches Yabu's.
In Tokuda's gojushiho there is that technique while in Yabu's there is not.
I was just reaching here seeing if there's a connection.
Sorry if I offended you.

[Sin Eater]

Great clip, I think it was definetly just, pretty good technique.

[Jeff C.]

I'm not offended Tony, therefore no apology necessary. I am just being my normal blunt self. Thank you for clarifying your questions.

For all I know it is a "Dennis Hill" variant of the kata. Dennis studied Wado and Shinto Yoshin jujitsu. It could be a jujitsu influence on interpretation of the kata.

Jeff Cook

[Jeff C.]

Tony, I was reviewing some kata videos on the internet today, and frankly I am disturbed by the divergence in some of the Wado kata (although it's all still good). I was looking particularly at Pinan Yodan and Jion. The versions I learned seemed to have more of a "jujitsu flavor" than what I saw in some of the videos today. The vids I saw were, quite frankly, a lot "harder" and more linear than the way I was taught those forms.

But since I have been out of touch with the whole Wado crowd for years, I cannot explain why there are differences. Interestingly, I have footage of Ohtsuka doing the forms, but Suzuki has been recorded doing them differently. I do remember Hill Sensei telling me at one time "If you do them like Ohtsuka did them for film, you can't go wrong." Now I think I know what he meant.

Jeff Cook

[swchiro]

There are different facts of life that mommy and daddy taught me:
1. When a police officer tells you to do something, do it.
2. The best defence, is a good, fast, offence!

Good job officer...and thanks for serving our community....Steve

[nirgle]

There are different facts of life that mommy and daddy taught me:
1. When a police officer tells you to do something, do it.No kidding. Even if the guy in this vid thought he had done absolutely nothing wrong, when an officer tells you to take your hands out of your pockets, there doesn't need to be any discussion on why, since the why is obvious.

Oh, and from a martial artist's perspective, if he had taken his hands out of his pockets he would have had much more of a chance defending against the lunge.

[Koshu]

David,

Miss you at the ol' Zanshin Goshin Dojo here in Pasadena. I know Adams Shihan has wondered how you're doing. Hope your studies are going well at UCLA! You were a good martial arts student and have a great attitude, so I'm glad to know we may see you back again when school's out. (As far as [a] school[s] that you can attend in the meantime / during school sessions, I'll respond on the other recent thread you started.)

As pointed out in a previous post, the cupped-hand striking technique used by the cop in the video is often called "Leopard's Mouth" (or "Tiger's Mouth"), etc. As you'll recall, someone who develops comprehensive self-defense skills via jujutsu training should be able to competently respond to a threat within the entire spectrum of force (from avoidance to lethality). Change the Tiger's Mouth to a ridge-hand strike, and the guy taken down probably dies from a shattered windpipe! Since appropriate / legal use of force is open to interpretation (i.e. not all judges would necessarily see things the same way), I can't speak for what a court of law in Vegas, let alone in a given city of L.A. County, would say. But personally, given the repeated warnings given by the cop, and the potential for a hidden weapon, that looked like a very competently executed takedown and control sequence.

As for the technique's classification as jujutsu. . . . The short answer is "yes." In Japanese arts, this would be considered a form of atemi- (striking to vital points) waza, and it falls more along the kempo- / kenpo-jujutsu side, vs. the aiki-jujutsu side, of our curriculum (more on this later*). But given the wide-spread use of the technique in other martial arts (Japanese and otherwise --- in fact, kempo techniques derive rather directly from Chinese styles) and self-defense / combat systems, it is a universal technique.

*Taking the question a step further --- can the technique be considered Hakkoryu? (For the purposes of this discussion: the various re-badgings of Hakkoryu as Hakko-Denshin-Ryu / Kokodo [which our school technically falls under], Dentokan, etc. are synonymous with Hakkoryu). As you know, Adams Shihan, unlike many Hakkoryu teachers, steadfastly teaches Hakkoryu as a self-defense style. As recently as last month at a training by Yasuhiro Irie Shihan, a black belt from another school reportedly admonished one of our students that Hakkoryu is practiced for martial artistry, whereas you'd need something else for practical self-defense. How sad! Seems that so many current practitioners of Hakkoryu (and other martial arts with sound combat roots) only practice waza for the sake of memorizing waza as a kata (pre-arranged form) --- not to learn the underlying principles that apply to self-defense. The official Hakkoryu website states very clearly that "it is Hakkoryu's purpose to eventually elevate a Deshi's skill to the point where he/she will be able to create their own techniques (Henka) for use in practical self-defense situations. This is when the Deshi stops imitating and takes on Hakkoryu techniques as though their own." So --- based on this statement, Tiger's Mouth as shown in the video clip can easily be classified as a henka of Hakko-Zeme, the first of the Hakkoryu tachi (standing) waza in which the tori strikes from below toward the uke's head (or neck, as the case may be), knocking the uke backward. Taking this whole argument further, Hakkoryu is therefore a complete martial art that can be applied on your feet, knees or laid out on the ground against one or more attackers.

David, also keep in mind that our school's Hakkoryu lineage is that of teachers such as Joe Miller Shihan and Norm Leff Shihan, who ardently saw studying Hakkoryu and other jujutsu as a means to survive in the rough urban areas of New York and New Jersey. This is a very progressive line of Hakkoryu teachers, and Adams Shihan is no exception! Truth be told, while you saw Tiger's Mouth early and often at our school, I'd say in many (if not most) Hakkoryu dojo, you'd rarely if ever see a Tiger's Mouth executed, let alone as a "Hakkoryu" technique. Remember, we're the oddball Hakkoryu school that encourages students to apply the Tekagami wrist bind to the uke's foot / ankle to cause the uke to turn over and / or submit. Definitely works!

Continue to earnestly pursue your studies (in all things), and hope to see you down the road!

Mert

[nirgle]

As for the technique's classification as jujutsu. . . . The short answer is "yes." In Japanese arts, this would be considered a form of atemi- (striking to vital points) waza, and it falls more along the kempo- / kenpo-jujutsu side, vs. the aiki-jujutsu side...That's interesting. We have that throat grab in our aiki-jiujitsu, for use in against-wall pins and to assist leg sweeps from the front, among other applications.

It is also in an application of a "low block" early on in one of our forms, but granted we took that form from a kung fu system. This is one of my favourites, so I'll describe: Your assailant is very close in, with his head facing 90 degrees away from yours, too close to strike but close enough to grab the trachea with one hand. As in a bear hug from the front with arms free. The throat control scares and distracts the assailant, and stabilizes the head while the other hand reaches around the back of his head to grab above a chunk of hair above the ear. That hand is then pulled back down to the waist as the hand bracing the trachea jerks in the opposite direction.

Ouch.

[Koshu]

Jason,

That's a heckuva way to the turn the tables! Again --- not something you'd normally equate with an aiki-jujutsu style, but the use of opposing forces certainly is in keeping with aiki-jujutsu strategies.

Mert

[Dlee427]

Thanks for the responses!

[nirgle]

Well the jiu in jiu-jitsu of course can stand for flexible. A properly training practitioner develops the flexibility to choose the level of force needed at the time and in the circumstance. The throat grab is one of many possible reactions to the scenario I mentioned above, but would probably be my choice. When someone is trying to squeeze the life out of you, depending on who it is, you can choose whatever fits.

[rgoad]

That was sweet. I'm so glad the cop was not hurt because he messed around woried about being PC.

Good for him.