Danzan Ryu Questions

[FightersSpirit]

Hello I have some questions for anyone in Danzan Ryu. Now I've heard standing up, Danzan Ryu is alot like Judo, and you get to do alot of throwing. But how is the groundfighting/grappling part? Is it still like Judo on the ground? (like armlocks, shoulder locks, but no leg locks, ect)

[wab25]

DZR is a good well rounded art. It is set up to do about 50% kata and 50% waza. (waza can be randori, or a drill, like from different attacks) The theory is "to get better at randori, practice kata and to get better at kata, practice randori."

The stand up is similar to Judo, with a few variations. We end the throw with tori standing up and on balance. We do not land on uke. Also, we have fewer throws, about 20. Once those 20 are learned, then you can add in variations.

There is a ground game in DZR. We learn chokes, arm locks, shoulder locks, body locks, leg locks, ankle locks, toe locks, knee locks......

We also study punching and kicking, but not till near shodan. After you get a good basis with the throwing and grappling, then you learn to add in punches and kicks as a part of the art.

One big difference you will notice with DZR is that it is not sport oriented. We are really not interested in getting you to submit. We are interested in finishing it. Example: we learn the regular armbar from the mount in three variaties. 1. both legs across uke 2. one leg across uke 3. neither leg across uke. Yes, both legs is the best way to control uke to make him submit. But, the practice with no legs over, is preparatory to learning to throw uke Seoi Nage, then take a back fall yourself, breaking uke's arm as he lands in the "arm bar" position. The one leg over, version works with a foot sweep, then crush uke's jaw with your heel as you stomp on his face, then fall into the arm break.

[FightersSpirit]

Thank you very informative. :cool:

So randori (free rolling) is in Danzan Ryu? In randori can you throw as well as go to locks and chokes? Also I hate doing this, but comparing the locks to BJJ are they similar? (such as triangle, rear naked choke, kimura, keylock, heel hook, ect?) I did some BJJ training, and I miss it, but had to quit cause it was a little too expensive.

For the striking, is it chambered punches or is it like Kickboxing/Boxing style punches?

[wab25]

Randori is different dojo to dojo. And it also depends on your level of skill. Sometimes, it resembles BJJ rolling, sometimes Judo style, sometimes everything goes. It really depends on who is teaching it. The biggest thing is that you only try what you know you can control. I have pulled off those throws into a break a few times in randori. But I have passed over the move, or just done the throw more often, because I was not sure of my control in that situation. As long as you develop the control, you can usually find people in the DZR system that will want to roll the way you want to. The good thing, is that you can try out different sets of rules as well, to work on different aspects.

Yes, all the locks you mentioned are in DZR. We tend to look at BJJ as Shime specialists. We often look to BJJ for insight and variations for our shime. But, we also look at Judo and Sambo and wrestling and anything else involved in ground work, for more insight to our shime.

Striking gets interesting. When you start learning striking, you learn a target and a direction to apply to that target. We don't care what you use to hit that target in that direction. The mechanics of how you strike are taught many different ways, depending on the instructor and their experience. If you stick around long enough, you will learn most ways of punching. What is important, we think, is learning to make your strikes part of your grappling art, not seperate.

Further, we wait to teach strikes until close to black belt. One reason is that when you work with a white belt, and ask him to punch you, so that you can do your art, you don't know whats coming. You have to learn to take whatever punch is thrown, and get your art from that. We don't base our timing on a "karate punch" only to be thrown off with a "boxing punch."

One last thing is that you will need to be patient. You start learning to roll and fall. You also start with yawara and five throws. At blue belt, you learn nage, throwing. Green belt is shime, most of the BJJ like arts. Then into brown, where striking is introduced. So, it takes a while.

[FightersSpirit]

I'm just a little weary about DZR. Some have said that their groundfighting is pathetic. And I've heard that BJJ white belts have tapped DZR black belts. But if schools train like you said they do, it would be ok.

[wab25]

The thing with DZR is that much of it is up to the individual instructors. There are instructors out there that don't like and don't do much randori at all. Then there are instructors that love to do LOTS of randori and sparring. Yes there are DZR black belts that are easy to tap out during randori and I am sure that some BJJ white belts have done so. There are however, DZR blackbelts, (and brown and green ....) that will give a BJJ guy plenty of trouble. What it comes down to is the individual and their training ethic. It is easy to train DZR, just doing kata, making it pretty and looking for your chi balls. However, many, and I would say most, people train much harder than that. My first sensei would take on college wrestlers as a warm up for teaching class. (he would beat them too, I don't think I ever remember him tapping) There are many who cross train with BJJ to get a better ground game, or just to find some tougher people to roll with. Many also take up boxing / kickboxing as well. Go check out your local DZR school, see how they practice.

The bad thing about DZR is that different people focus on different things, and can still be doing DZR. The good thing is that different people focus on different things and are still doing DZR. In my opinion, the bad part is when people get so far from reality, doing very pretty kata, ALL the time. The good part is that you can go around to different teachers and learn different things. You can go take a class from that flowery kata teacher, and actually learn some neat stuff to apply while rolling in your BJJ class. What I really appreciate is that many instructors have experience in Judo, BJJ, Kenpo, Karate, TKD, boxing, kickboxing, kung fu...... and they have found a way to put their other arts into DZR, as a part of the art. Take the nice pretty axe kick from TKD, that seems pretty useless on the street. We take a straight punch, into an ulna press, with that axe kicking coming down on the back of ukes head, all in one motion. Someone figured out that you didn't have to strike OR grapple. You do both. In fact, Okazaki, studied many different arts in putting together his system: Jujitsu (a few different schools), Judo, boxing, kung fu, wrestling, Lua... He also competed in MMA fights in the Hawaiin islands, (they were called challenge matches back then) and had his students competing in them as well. So, the system of DZR is set up to do some serious training, and produce a very well rounded fighter. DZR does not specialize in ground fighting, thus a ground fighting specialist (BJJ) will have an advantage on the ground. The trick is to find an instructor that teaches with the focus that you want. Then, you can go around and sample from all the others, picking up what they do well.

Also realize, that BJJ does promotion based on ability to get others to tap out. DZR does promotion, at least to black belt, based on being able to demonstrate kata well. These are two very different criteria, so you are comparing apples to oranges. While there are some BB that I think your BJJ white belt could take apart in ground fighting, if you open up the rules, the out come might be a little different. Then there are the BB I have met that will tap out quite a few BJJ guys, at their own rules. What it comes down to, is what the BJJ guys said, it matters how your train, and how hard you train. If you want to cross train, the two systems work very well together. DZR will help with your throws, and stand up skills, BJJ will give you a great ground game. BJJ will add some to the DZR stand up as DZR will add some to your ground game.

[FightersSpirit]

One more question. I've heard people that did DZR say that there is no resistance training. Is that true? Do you train with resistance on your techniques?

[wab25]

Define resistance for me.

We do engage in randori and you can find a bit of sparring if you find the right people. When we practice kata, we practice with no resistance, as we are practicing kata. When we practice waza, or free style, there are varying amounts of resistance. Most of us will happily give you whatever amount of resistance that you want.

What people usually mean when they say this, is that at white belt, when you learn ogoshi, both people cooperate. Tori's job is to throw, and uke's job is to be thrown. People feel that the throw was no good, because "look how easy I can counter that throw." Here is the deal though. When you show up at white belt, you need to learn to fall. Yes, a proper ogoshi is not that bad of a fall to take. But, our falls get higher and higher as you go. We recognise that everyone can counter ogoshi, especially when you know its coming. What we also recognise is that there are people out there, who are capable of throwing you ogoshi, whether you want to be thrown ogoshi or not. So, we learn to take the fall. We learn to land correctly, on concrete. We learn to choose where we will land. We learn to choose how hard we hit the ground. We learn ways to attack from the ground, once you have been gotten by an ogoshi. (or other throw) And we learn to counter ogoshi (or other similar throw) in mid air, with a counter throw. However, to learn these counters, you need to be in the correct position, as you are thrown. So, we teach you to get that correct position, as you are being thrown, from day one. When you get to the level where you start to learn the counters, you then realize that you have been practicing them all along.

Further, we train not to resist force with force. We would rather go around. In training with resistance, you train in a reaction to get the throw you want. Take o soto gari, if you train with resistance all the time, you learn to blast through the leg, with your sweep no matter what. When you train kata, you learn to get uke's balance correctly first, and you learn to feel when things are not going to work out, due to uke countering. (not being taken off balance) Instead of using strength to finish, assuming that you will always have enough strength to force the issue, we change direction and throws. By countering one throw, you are setting up quite a few other throws. So, we train to take the throw that uke is giving you, by the way he counters. We are not really concerned that we couldn't do o soto gari when we wanted to, and had to switch to seoi nage. Of coarse, all that means nothing, unless you can pull it off on a resisting person. This is why we also practice with randori, and by setting up situations we want to practice. There is a lot to learn from both camps, the full resitance and the nice kata. We use both and learn from both. We take what we learn in full resistance training and apply it to kata. Then take what we learn in kata, and apply it to full resistance training.

I suggest, you go take a few classes at your local DZR place. See if it is for you. I suspect it will not be your thing, as you seem to want to do BJJ with full resistance. Nothing wrong with that at all. Go look at a BJJ place and a DZR place. Take the one that is your speed. In my opinion, BJJ gives you the training experience that they want you to have. DZR gives your the techniques that they want you to have, and leave it as an exercise for the student to train it to the level the student wants.

[FightersSpirit]

Actually DZR was an option, but Judo seems something I can get into more. Alot of resistance, throwing, submissions, and chokes. But thank you very much. Maybe one day I can find a DZR dojo like yours. In my area you got to be careful of where you go.

[Mekugi]

Actually DZR was an option, but Judo seems something I can get into more. Alot of resistance, throwing, submissions, and chokes. But thank you very much. Maybe one day I can find a DZR dojo like yours. In my area you got to be careful of where you go.

Stick to kakutogi. You'll be happier in the long run. :)