Should teenagers teach an adults martial arts class? [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

DragonMind

11-09-2006, 13:59

Since I don't think most adults should teach an adult class, I'd have to say the same about teens. If you are paying money for a professional teacher you have a right to expect certain training, skills and abilities - and I'm not talking about MA here. The odds of a teen possessing the necessary training and experience as a teacher is practically nil.

Some people want to pay for coaching rather than teaching and have a right to expect an appropriate set of training and skills there. Some people want to pay for some person's reputation regardless of their teaching/coaching skill and they are certainly free to do so; its their own money to risk. So long as everyone is clear and up front about what they offer and what they expect to get, I say let the market sort it out. When someone purports to provide one thing and actually supplies another, then its time to pull out the :bsflag:and start :smack:

David Beckwith

11-09-2006, 14:35

I don't think many adults are willing to overlook the age of the instructor. Even if the teenager were 19 and had been trainning for thirteen years, and were in fact an excellent instructor, I don't think they would get much of an older adult following to the point where they could open a school and teach for money. But that 19 year old with trainning and teaching skills is about as rare as hitting the lottery anyway. And that is not to say that there are not many many top notch teen age martial artists. By the way, as Barry has said, even most adults who lack teaching skills.

Most people are looking for an older ":laugh: preferably oriental:laugh: " instructor when it comes to martial arts trainning.

JiuJitsuRabbit

11-10-2006, 06:46

Most people are looking for an older ":laugh: preferably oriental:laugh: " instructor when it comes to martial arts trainning.

Oh no! Mine is Brazilian!

De_Franza

11-10-2006, 08:07

I think if an older teen or twenty something has the martial skills and good teaching ability, it's okay for them to run a lesson or two, but not as the primary instructor of a school.

the headmaster should be around with feedback and coaching. This is a great way for advanced students to learn, after all. (both the MA techniques themselves and how to teach).

Musubi Dojo

11-10-2006, 09:03

What Bill said. His hat is huge indicating great wisdom.

Enyu

11-10-2006, 09:33

I may be somewhat subjective, being a teenager myself, but I think a teenage (assistant) instructor with considerable experience is capable enough of teaching technique to an adult with no experience. The fact is that one knows something and the other doesn't.
However, I do not think that a teenager should instruct classes for people with a similar level of experience (e.g. a teenage 1st dan instructing an adult 3rd, 2nd or 1st kup/kyu).

De_Franza

11-10-2006, 10:48

What Bill said. His hat is huge indicating great wisdom.
Thanks Chris, the Iron Turban and I thank you.

Gordon Nore

11-10-2006, 18:54

When I started training, in my mid-thirties, one of the senior students was about seventeen. He helped me quite a bit, but he worked under the supervision of our sensei. Later, when I became an instructor, I was limited to working with white belt kids and worked under the supervision of black belts, all of whom were at least a decade younger than I, and I was pushing forty.

For quite a few years now, my teachers have felt comfortable leaving me in charge of kids or adults classes when they have to be away, but that is also an issue of maturity and experience. Novice teachers of any age need to be supervised. A teenager may be quite competent in instructing students; however, that's a far cry from knowing what to do if something goes wrong and being able to follow through. Parent complaint, physical confrontation between students, medical emergency -- a teenager, no matter how competent in instructing the skills of an art, cannot be expected to take on that level of responsibility.

That said, I think having teens instruct is just fine. My son works for me in an after-school class I run at my middle school. I love, trust, and respect my son, but he is supervised and allowed to teach certain things to certain people, just as my sensei limits what I am allowed to do outside his school.

Final thought: An adult does not sign up for a karate class, or sign his/her child up for a karate class, so that someone else's teenager can learn a lesson in leadership. The best interests of the students in the class come first.

DragonMind

11-12-2006, 19:41

Tang-Soo-Architect

11-13-2006, 07:51

I also think that the idea "if you shouldn't teach adults, then you teach children" is seriously flawed. It is more difficult to teach youth than adults. Teaching young people is not for novices; that is a job for senior instructors.
Yep ditto me on that.
One of my instructors is 22 and he started teaching full time at the age of 19 when he took over one of our Masters classes, which made him the youngest instructor in our federation. His dad became the assistant instructor so there was the supporting influence of age and experience to help him.

WMKS Shogun

11-14-2006, 11:32

So at what age would one be capable of being the head instructor of a school? Many have agreed that they would not feel comfortable taking classes from a 19 year old, even if they had been traing for 13 years. (I am glad I caught my typo before I posted, it, but since I did, we can all have a laugh about it: the last sentence originally read, "...not feel comfortable taking classes from a 10 year old, even if they had been training for 13 years." LOL ) So at what age could one be the head instructor of a school (and at what rank)? What circumstances could alter your opinion on that, if any?

JiuJitsuRabbit

11-14-2006, 11:40

I think it more boils down to:

I don't think you should have a black belt till 18.

I don't think you should teach the advanced class till you have taught youth and white belts.

I don't think you should teach without supervision, meaning you need to be uki in a class and help teach long before you are thrown into teaching.

Meaning this whole process should take till you are 20 ish if you trained dedicatedly.

wildwills

11-14-2006, 12:12

rgoad

11-14-2006, 12:59

If we are just talking about children under 21, then I tentatively agree with you.

Is the kid 'teaching' or 'leading' the class? It's only a matter of organization if he's just 'leading'.

I have always been an admirer of the International Tang Soo Do organization based on how they produce instructors and 'masters' of schools. They have all sorts of requirements that include ancillary training in First Aid and education principles. I would even include kinesiology, exercise physiology, and history training as a requirement.

But we have to be ready to accept that if all you are doing is kicking someone much younger can show you how to a some extent. But it should not be a permanent thing.

Nyuck3x

11-14-2006, 22:03

Aikidog

11-14-2006, 22:32

Sure, but only beginners. I don't see why a teen who has been training ever since he started walking can't teach an adults beginner / intermediate class.

Another thing to consider is that dojos also need to make money. I'm sure if a teen instructor turned out to be incompetant, the dojo would suffer. Though that is not a failsafe in itself.

rgoad

11-15-2006, 07:33

Does a teen have the insight to understand the demands of life
outside the dojo? Does s/he know what it is like to have to hold
back on a technique because you know that if you go full out,
an injury can put you out for a time and you need to put food
on the table for your family. Do they know what it is like to get
old and have your body start to reject the things you are doing
with it or how a 20 year old injury can prevent you from doing something.

If a teen knows what it is like to have the responsibilities of
an adult and how it affects their life if there is an injury, then I
say maybe. S/he would have to prove themselves to me.

An instructor needs to be able to know what to expect from an adult.
A simple "I can't do it" means something else from a 40 something
verses a healthy teen.

Not to potentially hijack the thread, but people should go to karate schools to learn karate, not about life. Master Po was a fun fiction, and there are great life lessons available in martial arts. If an instructor happens to have the wisdom to also help me with life, that's a bonus. It is presumptuous for him to assume to tell ANYONE about life as part of the training.

Some instructors will stand up and pontificate about life and survival and have no clue about what they are talking about. If a child can help learn a move better I need to be humble emnough to learn it from him.

Now the part about saftey and responsibility is well made. But I think we are merging the concept of teacher and class leader. Again, I have seen many, many adult instructors that will teach movement in a dangerous manner leading the students to near or long term injuries. Most instructors have a certificate from someone in martial arts and the money to open a school. Not much else.

The young person may be only the equivalent of a four foot tall metronome counting and running us through a drill, but I am moving and learning from repitition. I need that more than new instruction.

wildwills

11-15-2006, 07:58

Not to potentially hijack the thread, but people should go to karate schools to learn karate, not about life.

Very good point. While I don't mind a teen BB openining the class with drills and sparing sets. I still prefer to have an adult instructor. Just my personal preference.

rgoad

11-15-2006, 08:03

Now THAT, I completley agree.

Now for the $64,000 question: when is the person eligible to teach te entire class. Georgia is a good example. She just turned 19.

wildwills

11-15-2006, 08:11

Now THAT, I completley agree.

Now for the $64,000 question: when is the person eligible to teach te entire class. Georgia is a good example. She just turned 19.

That's easy, when the owner/school head says he or she is.

JiuJitsuRabbit

11-15-2006, 09:17

I just feel that a school should be successful enough or have enough members to not lean on teens/fresh black belts to pay thier bills.

I guess I am lucky enough to have several qualified instructors that this won't happen.

My main point of contention is both Mr. Cucci and Mr. Palhares sons train BJJ with me. Both are 17/18 ish. Both are better than my by a long shot.

Neither is ranked above blue belt and neither teaches a class.

Then I think about my girl friend who trains under a purple belt who is 18 to 20 ish, I am not entirely sure, and from observation and her own reporting that class is run like a circus.

Its hard to control a class and exceptionally hard in a sparing art when saftey in appling joint locks and strangles are important.

Nyuck3x

11-15-2006, 09:37

Now the part about saftey and responsibility is well made. But I think we are merging the concept of teacher and class leader. Again, I have seen many, many adult instructors that will teach movement in a dangerous manner leading the students to near or long term injuries. Most instructors have a certificate from someone in martial arts and the money to open a school. Not much else.

The young person may be only the equivalent of a four foot tall metronome counting and running us through a drill, but I am moving and learning from repitition. I need that more than new instruction.

This is what I ment to highlight. An instructor needs to know what s/he can
expect from a student. How far they can push them and what is acceptable
as far as injury. Most young people simple do not have the life experience
to handle this.

I am not against young people leading class under the direction of the
head instructor. People pay for instruction and expect the head intructor
to be participating in the class.

When are young people eligible to teach? When they have assisted Sensei long enough to
earn the respect of the adults in the school.

rgoad

11-15-2006, 10:29

That's easy, when the owner/school head says he or she is.Heh. Good answer, senator. :D

Sorry if that seemed like a loaded question. I was just wondering because there are several questions at play, there. As a female she often has to earn the respect from students more than perhaps is fair. However, I think it is fair that she be required to earn it.

For the time being her instruction is a formula based on the Savory model, so I can't fault that. However, she is still growing in maturity.

My whole reason for using her as an example is that she is a specific example and it is fair to discuss that situation. She is not offended by the question, she's used to it.

tcomea2

11-15-2006, 10:50

One of our senior students is a 16-17 year old kid. I love to work with him, and have no problem taking instruction from him. Granted he doesnt teach our class he has helped me greatly.

stuart stratford

11-15-2006, 14:03

:hot: :hot: :mad: im am a 15 year old instructor sho dan ho and i teach krj ju jitsu a hybrid form of it there are three black belt instructors including me and i teach the adults as well and the hardest part of that is gaining respect from the adults because lets face it anyone older than the teacher is going to be a bit cocky as i know too well. remember the best of martial artist isnt always the best teacher. so give them a chance

stuart stratford

11-15-2006, 14:11

rgoad

11-15-2006, 14:25

My you ARE young. While reading your last posts I realize you've only had two periods.

Part of the problem is communication. For example your posts, which you could take all the time you need to compose, were written in haste and probably justify the attitude of people who would NOT want a young instructor.

wildwills

11-15-2006, 14:28

because they could be better than u

Ah to be 15 again and know then what I know now.

Jay Bell

11-15-2006, 14:50

*sigh* I'd love for a 15 year old to try and put me in my place...

stuart stratford

11-15-2006, 15:15

do i detect a hint of sarcasm

and sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Jay Bell

11-15-2006, 15:26

Stuart, before you mentally outgrow your cartoon character underpants, let's go over a few things..

Understand something...being heard and being listened to are two very different things.

What I'd like to see more of in your posts is pre-thought before hitting 'submit'...asking yourself if you are adding to the thread or not. If not...the back button should be your preferred action. You aren't going to thrill very many people in your outlooks. I promise.

In all honesty, the idea of a 15 year old instructor is laughable. Any school (and I mean *any* school) that promotes this type of action is also, in my opinion, laughable. I've seen young teens that had a good amount of skill. That, a teacher does not make.

moogong

11-15-2006, 15:27

do i detect a hint of sarcasm

and sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Yes, you do detect sarcasm. And it is coming from someone on the Budoseek staff so if you like to participate on the forum then I suggest you take the thinly veiled hint and not be hostile in your posts. It would be a shame to banish someone who stands to learn a great deal from the more seasoned members on the forum. Thank you for your cooperation.

Ron Tisdale

11-15-2006, 15:42

While reading your last posts I realize you've only had two periods.

ok, for a minute there I thought you were calling him a very young girl...

:eek:

B,
Ron:D:

stuart stratford

11-15-2006, 16:18

Thanks very much for the advice. It is respectfully noted. However, I think that you have perhaps misunderstood my point and also judged me incorrectly. I am very willing to learn from those with greater experience. My point, (and maybe I wasn't clear) was that sometimes when I have been asked to take a class of lower grades (in this case adults) I don't believe that I have been given the respect that a junior instructor deserves. In fact it is fair to say that some adults in the class have been openly disrespectful because I am younger.

So, how about some positive advice and support on how to deal with such a situation rather than dismiss me and my 8 years of study because I am younger than you !

I accept that I still have a lot to learn. But as you have reminded me you are more experienced and should be able to handle such situations without threatening to bar me from your site. I have everything to gain from being here and I have carefully considered my submission this time.

rgoad

11-15-2006, 16:18

I was, after a fashion; referring to his lack of establishment. If we were Legionnaires I would have called him pusillanimous, but Jay beat me to it.

stuart stratford

11-15-2006, 16:41

I know what that means (and as I'm sure everybody else has looked it up). Why don't you say what you mean in English ? If you are saying what I think you are trying to say, you are deeply insulting. Please clarify ?

Maro

11-15-2006, 17:07

Let's give Stuart a break - He's rewritten his posts in a much more structured style and admits he can learn from the board.

That's good.

Nyuck3x

11-15-2006, 17:08

My point, (and maybe I wasn't clear) was that sometimes when I have been asked to take a class of lower grades (in this case adults) I don't believe that I have been given the respect that a junior instructor deserves. In fact it is fair to say that some adults in the class have been openly disrespectful because I am younger..

Repect is earned. It is not something that one expects from anyone. Even if
one out ranks the other.

So, how about some positive advice and support on how to deal with such a situation rather than dismiss me and my 8 years of study because I am younger than you !

I know you are trying to estabilish credit with us but 8 years is really
nothing. I have keikogi older than that.:laugh:

Your response is typical of what I would expect from a teenager
so therefore you have only reinforced all negetive images we have
regarding the subject.

stuart stratford

11-15-2006, 17:21

David Craik

11-15-2006, 17:27

To the original question, I can't really say they "should" or "shouldn't", but I don't believe that I would attend such a class. I can't base this on teaching skill, per se, since I've had instructors that spoke very little English that issued corrections physically, in the form of grunts, or with such gems as "use hip!". Nor can I say that a teenage instructor would not be a talented martial artist.

I do think though, that the age at one starts training shapes how one internalizes basics. Young people have a tendency to want to fast-forward to the "cool stuff", while older folks seem to dwell more on kihon to get it right before trying to learn something new. This is not to say that someone who started young won't eventually be very good - with age, there comes a tendency to drill those foundational basics time and again. I may be way off base, but I think people with a little life experience under their belts simply learn better in the beginning because they have a longer attention span and are more focused.

I also think even well-meaning instructors sometimes advance younger testees because they are thinking - maybe subconsciously - that such and such a technique or kata was performed very well for his age, instead of having to master it to the same proficiency as an adult.

In a true sempai/kohai environment, talented teenagers are invaluable for teaching juniors however.

stuart stratford

11-15-2006, 17:42

:cool: You are somone who knows what they are talking about FINALY!!!

you are somone i will ask if i have a question in the future.

David Beckwith

11-15-2006, 17:54

thanks Maro for your understanding.

However someone doesn't agree with you..and tells me that respect is earned. I was taught that respect was always given until lost in my martial art.

8 years may not be much but it's more than half of my lifetime so far !

Would you take instruction from a 13 year old came in who started when she was 4 yrs old and was a black belt instructor?

Would you leave your 6 yr old child in a class run by an older child?

rgoad

11-15-2006, 18:04

Let's give Stuart a break - He's rewritten his posts in a much more structured style and admits he can learn from the board.

That's good.Break given.

I was messing with you Stuart because it seemed from your post that you EXPECTED to be respected, etc. yet you know full well that it is rare for a person that young to be incharge of adults in ANY situation. People are going to be skeptical and should be.

It is a hallmark of the McDojo to promote children too fast just to get fees and to exploit as marketnig fodder and cheap labour in the school. Even if your school is not like that, that impression is always there for you to overcome.

As far as what I said, I meant it in the anachronsitic sense, not modern usage. Don't be insulted.:cool:

TonyU

11-15-2006, 18:07

Let's give Stuart a break - He's rewritten his posts in a much more structured style and admits he can learn from the board.

That's good.
With all due respect leave the moderating to us. That's what where here for.

David Craik

11-15-2006, 18:08

:cool: You are somone who knows what they are talking about FINALY!!!

you are somone i will ask if i have a question in the future.

Well, I can't say that I know what I'm talking about half the time, but I'd be happy to talk or try to answer any question you have, Stuart. :cool:

TonyU

11-15-2006, 18:12

Well, I can't say that I know what I'm talking about half the time, but I'd be happy to talk or try to answer any question you have, Stuart. :cool:
Same here.
Now my point of view. I agree with David and he covered all the reasons much better than I would have. I quit a school once (many, many moons ago) for one of the reason was many time I would come to class only to be taught by a teenager who was many years my junior. While he was very good, technique wise, he lacked the maturity and understanding of an adult. Why? Because he wasn't there yet. Some things you only get with time or age.

Maro

11-15-2006, 18:12

With all due respect leave the moderating to us. That's what where here for.

My Apologies- no moderation intended, just being civil...

tcomea2

11-15-2006, 18:33

thanks Maro for your understanding.

However someone doesn't agree with you..and tells me that respect is earned. I was taught that respect was always given until lost in my martial art.

8 years may not be much but it's more than half of my lifetime so far !
:eek: :eek:

OH MY EIGHT YEARS!!!

dude there are people on here who have been training for twice as long as you have been alive. Im glad for you accomplishments, but seriously, you sound so arrogant its not even funny.

jjaje

11-15-2006, 19:29

... [/B]My point, (and maybe I wasn't clear) was that sometimes when I have been asked to take a class of lower grades (in this case adults) I don't believe that I have been given the respect that a junior instructor deserves. In fact it is fair to say that some adults in the class have been openly disrespectful because I am younger...

Sometimes it's referred to as "powdered butt syndrome". It's hard to take advice from someone young enough that you may have powdered their butt while changing their diapers. This is why it's difficult for parents to take the advice of their own children, much less the teen child of someone else.

It's difficult, because first you have to be able to put yourself into the position of the older person. My son is almost 12, I KNOW one day he will be faster than me. I KNOW one day he will be stronger than me. I KNOW that I have to adjust my fighting style to be able to win against younger, faster, stronger people. It's like I say to him, "You may one day get faster, but you will never get meaner than me."

Are you taking this into account when you teach class? Are you showing speed, flexibility and aerobic capacity the other adults will likely never be able to get back to? Are you showing off what a 15 year old can do instead of adjusting the class for what a 40 year old can do? Do you treat it more like a game and a fun thing to do instead of serious defense?

Sometimes the most mature thing to do is instead of expecting respect, to pass on teaching the class, as you may not be completely prepared for that particular demographic. That would get you the respect I'm sure.

Nyuck3x

11-15-2006, 21:18

thanks Maro for your understanding.

However someone doesn't agree with you..and tells me that respect is earned. I was taught that respect was always given until lost in my martial art.

8 years may not be much but it's more than half of my lifetime so far !

By all means, respect as a human being is always given until something
happens to warrant the end of it. As I mentioned earlier, if you (a teen)
assist the Head Sensei long enough that the people respect you, then
I would say fine.

Stuart, we are all yanking your chain because you seem to think that being
a Shodan-Ho gives you standing. In Asia, adults do not bow to children.
IMO unless you are 18 and have proven that you deserve my respect
(as a martial artist), then you are just kohai.

8 years may be over half your life but, 35 is 3/4 of mine and I
feel I have much more to learn and do not expect anything
from anyone.:bow:

Peace

rgoad

11-16-2006, 08:26

Would you take instruction from a 13 year old came in who started when she was 4 yrs old and was a black belt instructor?

Would you leave your 6 yr old child in a class run by an older child?
This actually highlights the problem with instruction. Would I take from a fifty year old man who had taken martial arts for eight years? Probably not.

Martial arts schools can be opened in the USA by ANYBODY regardless of qualifications in the art or to instruct. Aside from the safety issues the ability to instruct adn communicate is usually based on the person's natural ability perhaps enhanced by their job experience rather than a person actually trained to teach.

As David Craik explained, older people are going to have a leg up because they know a context for their learning AND teaching. However, I am also convinced that people want to learn something new in each class rather than more about the techniques they already have been shown. A chimpanzee with a bongo can run a class if all you do is repetition and that is what I think people need more than anything else.

Stuart's problem with adults being disrespectful in class is the same issue one sees with any junior officer. He and his instructor need to determine if the people are being disrespectful of the position or if Stuart is expecting persona admiration becasue he is wearing the position.

Ron Tisdale

11-16-2006, 08:29

Hi Stuart,

If you show that you respect yourself, others will come to give you respect as they get to know you. Keep training, and be well.

Best,
Ron

WMKS Shogun

11-17-2006, 11:56

Stewart,
Keep training, teaching, learning all you can. There will always be nay-sayers. Listen to what they are saying and honestly ask yourself if they are right. If they are, work to fix it. If they are wrong, continue doing what you feel is best. On the issue of teen instructors, I personally feel as long as they are supervised by other instructors (who can act as a safety net in case they faulter and a teacher still to guide them along) then it is not a big deal. A teen running a class solely by himself/herself is a problem (if for no other reason, the legal ramifications). Personally, I feel that teens should not be solo teaching without supervision. With proper supervision though, let them teach, and in doing so, learn.

wildwills

11-17-2006, 12:56

It's like I say to him, "You may one day get faster, but you will never get meaner than me."

My father still tells me that, "Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and vigor".

mjd

11-18-2006, 05:38

Well since I started teaching at 16 (back in 76) I have to vote yes. Now this does not mean I agree with all teens teaching, though it does have a lot to do with how they are taught. I also beleive that teaching is a key learning tool for mid to high Kyu ranks. I have friends who are sandan's in other systems and can't teach a lick since they where never exposed to it as a young (in rank) student and over the young years of always being student now have that mind set. Now when they do teach it is so unorganized and poor.
Point is the teacher of the soon to be teen teachers need to teach them how to teach (did that come out right?)
Correct issue right after class and focus on good and bad points.
Personally I think that every student should be able to teach at or around gokyu or they are not being taught very well at all. The ablitiy of a student to teach comes from the skills of their teacher(s). As I recall everyone in our dojo as a kid taught and did a prety good job at it and I beleive it was that we had good instructors (the sempi's) and they allowed us to teach at a early age.

I realize many of you don't like to train in a class that is taught by someone younger than you (and I'll agree if the class sucks), but if you focus on the class and how well it is run, age is not seen nor noticed since you are training hard and learning!?

Kwan Jang

12-06-2006, 17:08

I believe that it is of great benefit to young advanced students to gain leadership experience. This can help them to gain leadership skills that can evolve into excellent instructors later on. I feel that these teens can be very helpful as using as role models (of excellence-i.e. demonstrating techniques, ect.) and pad holders in classes with younger students. Sometimes a young child can identify with and relate very well with a teen,so this is very good for the students.

IMO, it is very important to carefully select which advanced students you choose as teaching assistants and then to thoroughly train them before ever putting them on the floor. They can have a huge positive or negative impact on the students and who they can become. I have interested students attend a six month leadership class before they ever go out on the floor. At first, they hold pads, tie or re-tie belts, and hold pads. After more experience, they may help lead stretches, correct positions, and tell the students who are doing things correctly "good Job" (leaving corrections to the instructors).

With more experience, the next level allows them to assist a student who is having a challenge with a particular part of the cirriculum and take them off to the side and give them extra help. They can also lead a group in class, under the supervision of a senior insructor. I do not allow teens to ever teach an adults class, though I will allo some to assist by holding pads, demonstrating, or partnering up with an adult if they have went through this leadership process.

torbjork

12-07-2006, 06:07

Just a question - what's an instructor holding pads for?? How can he or she observe the students' techniques properly at the same time as holding a shield, pad or whatever implement is used?

Everywhere I've trained, pad holding is a task for the more junior students - that is, anyone under chodan level.

wildwills

12-07-2006, 07:38

I do think though, that the age at one starts training shapes how one internalizes basics. Young people have a tendency to want to fast-forward to the "cool stuff", while older folks seem to dwell more on kihon to get it right before trying to learn something new. This is not to say that someone who started young won't eventually be very good - with age, there comes a tendency to drill those foundational basics time and again. I may be way off base, but I think people with a little life experience under their belts simply learn better in the beginning because they have a longer attention span and are more focused.

That is an excellent point Dave.

I know when I'm in class I prefer to have things "slowed-down" which often makes a technique harder to execute, but also forces you to exceute the technique correctly and maintain proper position and balance.

Stuart, with Dave's point in mind...you may want to structure your class instruction to the adults in this manner. When all else fails...ask them what they think they need more work on. They'll get the perception that you're more interested in their progress and possibly respect you more for it.

Just a suggestion.

Kwan Jang

12-07-2006, 22:49

In awnser to Torjbork's question, I have intermediate and advanced adults hold pads for each other, that way they can work on their defensive skills rather than having it be just a "dead" drill. The same is true for advanced children and teens. The pad holding is usually done in the beginners and children's classes by the leadership team members and instructors, though at 6th dan, I still get in there quite a bit daily. So does my instructor who is a BLACK BELT HALL OF FAME instructor of the year. I've found that when I leave the pad holding to the juniors, they don't always give proper feedback and make certain that the students are hitting with proper focus and penetration (usually becomes a speed, slapping drill).

I should probably note that most of our padwork is from muay thai (Fairtex camp) and a bit different than some of the drills you may be used to in your TKD classes.

an_xxBUI

12-10-2006, 15:45

ezzthetic

12-11-2006, 06:44

The adult can have more expirience in life, but not in the martial art. That is what they come to learn.

As someone who started teaching in my teens, I can tell you that experience in life most certainly augments the instruction. As a teen one is young and inexperienced in general, no matter how one isolates an area of expertise.

I'm not against teens teaching at all, but I think it is unwarranted in MANY cases. At short intervals, it can be beneficial to the teen himself and immaterial to the class. I think in that situation, it depends largely on what is being taught. Drilling in safe routines that the students are already familiar with might for instance be all right.

Another point, as certainly it was for me, this can be more beneficial for the teen placed in the teaching position than the actual class. You'll learn from your mistakes and have much to contrast with later.

mjd

12-14-2006, 08:38

I started teaching 31 years ago at 16 and still teaching today. I believe that the early introduction to teaching only helped me as I grew.
I also believe that there is a fine line between running a school and teaching a class or classes. The school I came from is 38 years old and still makes many of its kids teach. The ones who do teach always stay much longer in the art and grow in a more balanced manner.
AS for how young, I believe the age of 14 to 16 (depending on the person) is a good age to start helping out in class, and work their way to running segments of the class to running the whole class. It does take time and input from the adult instructors to teach the young Teens, but it is well worth it.
Also take note that I don’t promote (nor does my old school) anyone to shodan until 18.
Yes Jr. grade is used but only after 14. So giving students the responsibility to teach does not give them rank nor should it. It only gives them another part of the training each student should receive.
Teaching is just one more important step each student of Budo needs to learn. One learns so much more (teaching) when they have to see 20-30 people in class follow them and they need to correct everyone as well. I instills the lessons into the mind of each student teacher and excels them

Eliz

12-14-2006, 12:33

I don't think there is anything wrong with teenagers teaching adults. Why would they be teaching If they don't have the knowlege, marturity and the capability. And If they are? Is it there fault? or the Main Instructor's fault for putting them in that position? Teens just don't come in one day and take over class( that shouldn't be the case anyways) they are put in that position. There are certain expectations for instructors and If they live up to those expectations then they should be able to. I know that some adults don't like learning from a younger person, but it really doesn't matter. The adult can have more expirience in life, but not in the martial art. That is what they come to learn.

I think it is fine if a few exceptional teenagers help out with younger classes. Maybe even lead warm-ups or a few drills. But that is about it.

As for the adult classes, our classes are in fact for adults. There are no teenagers, period. I can't even fathom a teenager teaching that class.

The other school I am in has no students under mid-20's. Our instructor is in his 70's. He is one of the most sought after and widely respected instructors around.

No, I really don't think teenagers can effectively teach an adult class.

Underdog

12-18-2006, 23:04

My instructor is around 23 or 24 years old, and there are people in my class that are in their 40's. First off, I just want to say that I had attempted to take up a martial art many many times. However I would eventually stop going to classes. I just felt I couldnt get into it, I would get tired and not really enjoy it.

The average age of the other instructors I attempted to learn under was probably about 35. One of which was even a 5 time kickboxing champion. I would always end up leaving the classes though, bored.

I honestly think the reason why I stuck with my MA this time, is because the instructor I have. My instructor I have now, showed a genuine interest in my progress, motivated me and everything. I just came to feel that I could really learn something from him, I had respect for him as a fighter and a teacher.

Now I know I am only 18, but most of the other students in my class feel the same way. Even the one's who are just there for the cardio workout, all enjoy it. So I really believe that the age of the instructor does not matter. I think what really matters in an instructor is if it is someone you are willing to learn from. Someone you feel really knows what they are doing, because as important as a good teacher is, the willingness to learn is a vital.

huunjin

12-20-2006, 23:56

Shodan can not be achieved until 18 NiDan at 21 in our DOJO. as for young teaching old sure not a problem to a point. In particular forms etc in the begining stages.....................but not later. Different Styles have different ranking systems so this ShoDan thing may not apply or I should say WILL NOT apply everywhere. There are people in there 40's claiming to be 10th dan. You would have to be a very old man to ever reach that level where we are. Life wisdom is a huge part of it all. In effect (couple exceptions) 10th Dan can NEVER be reached. We do not put as much weight on the Rank as we do the commitment.

out

BlueDragon

01-15-2007, 08:30

Thought I would add my few cents worth to the discussion:

A martial artists authority to teach under their particular style is, in most cases, based on their rank. Rank is earned not by training for a set number of years but by demonstrating knowledge and correct execution of that style. If that martial artist can convince their instructor that they know the style well enough to earn that rank, why shouldn't they also be able to teach it? To earn that rank they should have already demonstrated the necessary skills to teach it.

Ranks are awarded from the highest level. If a student respects his/her style, school and instructor/s, they should also respect the martial artists that their instructor/s have awarded teaching authority to.

At the same time, teachers must respect their students. If you are arrogant you close yourself off to continued learning. Just because you are able to teach doesn't mean you have nothing left to learn. Even the greatest martial artists continue to learn.

Brian R. VanCise

01-15-2007, 08:45

I think often with a youthful instructor that there is something to prove. This does tend to take away from their teaching abilities as they may show off or try to prove that they deserve the right to teach rather than focusing their teaching on the students in the class. Adults in general can see this and that is just one negative of children teaching classes. Add to this in that they may not have teaching ability to tailor what is being taught to individual students and you have a class that is then run by someone who can only show a technique but not actually break it down so that more students can learn it. Personally I feel that very few young individuals can teach well. It takes lots of time and practice to get good at it.

BlueDragon

01-15-2007, 08:52

I tried to edit this to my post by my time ran out :(

I wanted to add that teaching is also a great way to reinforce your own knowledge (and i say knowledge rather than skill because skill can be shown but that means nothing without the knowledge of how to get there). When showing a move to a student, or watching and correcting their technique, your mind makes new connections. I don't think this level of understanding could be replicated without taking on a teaching role.

Brian Dugger

01-15-2007, 10:34

Well, each person is different. Out of prudence, based on age I would not allow a teenager to teach completely alone. Assist, yes and spend time on a waza with perhaps two or three others provided they are adept and have demonstrated throrough knowledge on a particular waza. Leading warm-ups, helping maintain unidirectional flow of class yes, but I think that giving complete control entertains risks on multiple (if not, infinite) levels which I believe to be contrary to the fundamental precepts of any martial art. Notice there is no mention of "rank", I believe this is something that is a disposition of the mind first, body second.

On a another note, Caveat: After reading another thread regarding something related to this very matter, it is strongly suggested that all exercise some personal discipline on this subject. The last response on that thread was made by Robert Carver the Webmaster. He was none to happy and didn't just close the thread. He slammed it down and suspended a number of people's privileges at Budoseek.:frown:

BlueDragon

01-15-2007, 20:05

I think this thread is on the path of healthy, friendly discussion. But I'm new here so correct me if i'm out of line.

Eliz

01-15-2007, 21:40

I think this thread is on the path of healthy, friendly discussion. But I'm new here so correct me if i'm out of line.

So far, so good. Brian's reference over simplifies a much more complex situation. None of which has anything to do with this thread.

I have to say I find it interesting that so many of the younger members are all for teaching adults. Yet the older adults are a little more cautious with their opinions.

Peter Rehse

01-15-2007, 22:05

I have to say I find it interesting that so many of the younger members are all for teaching adults. Yet the older adults are a little more cautious with their opinions.
Its because we are polite.

Seriously though - people tend to vote with their feet. If you want to put a younger person in charge of a class be prepared for the consequences.

Brian Dugger

01-16-2007, 06:31

I think this thread is on the path of healthy, friendly discussion. But I'm new here so correct me if i'm out of line.

So far, so good. Brian's reference over simplifies a much more complex situation. None of which has anything to do with this thread.

At this juncture, I would like to make every effort here by saying I'm sorry. Just a little wary on my end and would very much like to sustain my privileges at Budoseek. Please pardon the oversensitivity as well as the oversimplification.

But I'm new here so correct me if i'm out of line.

And, I as well.:wink2:

mjd

01-16-2007, 07:13

It all depends on how the teen was taught...
If they where taught tough they will teach tough and disciplinded....

jjaje

01-16-2007, 09:53

Its because we are polite.

Seriously though - people tend to vote with their feet. If you want to put a younger person in charge of a class be prepared for the consequences.

We've gained new students that way. They were training somewhere else and didn't like taking orders from a teen.

DragonMind

01-16-2007, 10:40

If that martial artist can convince their instructor that they know the style well enough to earn that rank, why shouldn't they also be able to teach it? To earn that rank they should have already demonstrated the necessary skills to teach it.
There is one fundamental and fatal flaw in your argument: execution of technique has no relation to execution of teaching. Unless you have been taught specifically how to teach, your rank as a teacher is still white belt. Teaching is a skill that should be mastered before teaching on your own. Knowing your rank curriculum, how to execute techniques yourself, and copying your teacher's techniques does not a teacher make. Do you also understand age-related teaching methods, techniques for special populations, or the components of a proper lesson plan? These just scratch the surface of topics that make a teacher more than just someone who counts reps or mimics how they were taught.

coralreefer

01-16-2007, 10:57

I think I may be getting in late on this discussion, but I would like to add some input.

I think most teenagers are not equipped to teach classes. Note that I say "most". My reason behind that statement, is that, while a teenager may have great understanding of the "techniques", they likely do not have a good understanding of "how to impart that teaching onto others" I understand very well the importance of young instructors getting experience teaching, but I think it is the job of the head instructor, to know whether or not a particular class is suitable. I think it is the responsibility of the head instructor, to know not only whether that assistant is capable of teaching, but more importantly, to know how that instructor will be received by the students. Being a great martial artist, and being a "teacher" regardless of what you are teaching, are very different things. Let me give you a few examples...

As many of you know, I live and teach Taekwondo in South Korea. Many also know, that Koreans are crazy about learning English, and any native English speaker, especially those from North America, can get a great contract with room and board included, for relatively easy work. This lure draws many students fresh out of college, eager to see the world, and pay off student loans. Most of these students, while may being very intelligent concerning their field, otherwise, have no understanding of teaching anything, much less teaching ESL, never stood in front of a classroom full of children/students, but because they are native english speakers, they have no trouble at all finding work here. This leads to poor students, who's parents pay big money, only for their children to be taught by inexperienced "teachers"

In another example. Before I came to Korea, I was an assistant to my master back in America. There was one student in particular, who was in his 40's, and a captain in the city Police Department. Even though I was 27 at that time, he had some problems with learning from someone so much "younger" than him, and would have a bad attitude with learning from anyone other than my Korean master. People like him have to be dealt with very carefully, as well as many others. It is the job of an instructor, to know the students closely enough, to understand how they will react to an assistant leading the class.

I just think, that while having young assistants is vital for their training, their teaching should be very limited, especailly with adult classes. As adults, many may think that they are paying for a service. Not many want to go get their hair cut, only for the stylist, to put the work on some younger stylist, so they can gain some experience. When I pay money to get my hair cut, I want it done by the person that commands that 16 dollars for a cut, but an inexperienced worker, may not be as skilled as another stylist, but the cost will be the same. So I would ask :Why should I pay this money for sub-par service? On the same token, though it may be a cold way to say it, teenage instructors are "sub-par" to the head instructor, only because the years of experience teaching, are what seperates a "teacher" from someone leading warm-ups and exercise. In that sense, I think the head instructor owes it to all students, whether they are 4 year old "little dragon" students, or adult classes consisting of mothers and fathers, to choose very carefully when allowing such a young person to assist and teach.

Todd

BlueDragon

01-16-2007, 19:35

There is one fundamental and fatal flaw in your argument: execution of technique has no relation to execution of teaching. Unless you have been taught specifically how to teach, your rank as a teacher is still white belt. Teaching is a skill that should be mastered before teaching on your own. Knowing your rank curriculum, how to execute techniques yourself, and copying your teacher's techniques does not a teacher make. Do you also understand age-related teaching methods, techniques for special populations, or the components of a proper lesson plan? These just scratch the surface of topics that make a teacher more than just someone who counts reps or mimics how they were taught.

Ah, I guess I am just thinking from my own situation where learning to teach is part of the curriculum.

Also, to assist the debate perhaps we should clarify the question a little more. I think that we are all assuming different scenarios here. Has this teenager been trained to teach? Is the teaching supervised. Who is the person responsible for the school? Is this a combined class with mixed ages, including some adults? All of these would have an impact on my answer and probably that of other people.

So here are my opinions:

Should a teenager teach a class, ANY age class, unsupervised? No. The teacher has a responsibility for the safety of their students and a teenager should not be bearing that responsibility alone. As mentioned, if something does happen a teenager is less likely to know the appropriate response.

Should a teenager be running a school/class by his/her self? No. Running a school or a class involves many skills that a teenager would not have had the same amount of time to develop. They would need management, people and business skills. They need to be able to consider things like are they insured? what does that cover? what steps do they need to take to ensure the safety of their students and the school? Most teenagers would not consider these things.

Should a teenager teach lower grade students techniques under the supervision of an appropriately qualified adult? Yes. If they have the appropriate knowledge to teach this technique I see nothing wrong with this scenario. This could be general warm-ups or more specific techniques. If there is a problem communicating the idea, there is someone with more teaching experience to take control of the situation. It can take pressure off the main instructor if it's a large class, the students gain from more individual training (more teachers per student means that a wrong technique will get picked up and correcter quicker) and the teenager gains from teaching experience which will make them a better teacher.

I know someone mentioned that their class is all adults. In that situation it would be very strange and probably uncomfortable for both parties to have a teenager teaching.

Of course, there will always be expections. Just like some adults shouldn't teach, some teenagers shouldn't either. On the other hand, some teenagers might be very good at it.

Teenagers will have a harder time gaining the respect of a class, or some students. But guess what? Women can also face the same challenge. People see that a person is younger/smaller/weaker than them and think 'what can this person teach me?'. The respect just takes a little longer to gain.

Eliz

01-16-2007, 20:12

Todd,
Great points!

Teenagers will have a harder time gaining the respect of a class, or some students. But guess what? Women can also face the same challenge. People see that a person is younger/smaller/weaker than them and think 'what can this person teach me?'. The respect just takes a little longer to gain.

:oops: Really? ;)

All kidding aside, I have been an instructor for 15 years and I do know well the, "Who is She?" routine. I never thought of it as being female. I just thought of it as being the new kid on the block. It does take time. My age and experience helps.

Da-RiSiN-sMoKe

01-18-2007, 17:21

Why would age matter?

Yeah, we are younger and probably more nimble (in ways), but if the kid is smarter than OK.

Yeah, we'll leave McDojo and their "prodigy 1 year training black belts."

stuart stratford

01-18-2007, 17:42

jjaje

01-18-2007, 18:41

Well, I guess as long as you don't have to write it out for them...

mantisman

01-18-2007, 19:37

Depends. Is an 18 or 19 year old an adult? The law says yes. Maybe you have never been in a fight and they have or perhaps they work as a bouncer and are in a position to know what works and what does not.

Eliz

01-18-2007, 20:34

Well, I guess as long as you don't have to write it out for them...

:laugh: :laugh:

That is beautiful!

As for understanding learning curves, I think it is a given that most instructors are continuing their own learning. Irregardless of age. I can't believe that even came into question.

DragonMind

01-18-2007, 21:31

i am 15 i teach adults and in some way they prefer me to teach them i have good teaching skills because i know what it is like to be lerning what i teach that is what makes me better all u have to do is put urself in ther shoes.
I certainly hope your verbal communication skills exceed your written ones. There is a great deal more to teaching than a sense of empathy.

Brian Dugger

01-19-2007, 08:39

I certainly hope your verbal communication skills exceed your written ones. There is a great deal more to teaching than a sense of empathy.

Seriously, I don't think the public schools have been teaching phonetics for the last fifteen to twenty years. Is it me, or has anyone else noticed the carelessness of written/articulation on these threads from our younger associates?:rant:

I understand a typo or any other syntax/grammar slip, but some of the examples are just out and out neglect.:hot: Makes me wonder if any of this could be attributing to the disparity of the discussion.

Webmaster

01-19-2007, 08:46

Seriously, I don't think the public schools have been teaching phonetics for the last fifteen to twenty years. Is it me, or has anyone else noticed the carelessness of written/articulation on these threads from our younger associates?:rant:
I definitely think it has become an issue, but note that Stuart is from the UK. So it is obviously NOT just an American problem.

Eliz

01-19-2007, 08:50

Seriously, I don't think the public schools have been teaching phonetics for the last fifteen to twenty years. Is it me, or has anyone else noticed the carelessness of written/articulation on these threads from our younger associates?:rant:

I understand a typo or any other syntax/grammar slip, but some of the examples are just out and out neglect.:hot: Makes me wonder if any of this could be attributing to the disparity of the discussion.

Yes, it is still taught. There are several young members here and two teenaged Mods who communicate exceptionally well. It is plain laziness in my opinion.

The lack of mature communication skills, as exhibited above, is a perfect example as to why many would dismiss the ability of a teenager to properly instruct older students.

Webmaster

01-19-2007, 09:13

The lack of mature communication skills, as exhibited above, is a perfect example as to why many would dismiss the ability of a teenager to properly instruct older students.
I think that is a valid observation. No matter how physically skilled that teenager may be, they are not going to have the respect of those with more education or other "like skills". Imagine Stuart trying to teach a student with a Ph.D. in some discipline.

Brian Dugger

01-19-2007, 09:59

. . .The lack of mature communication skills, as exhibited above, is a perfect example as to why many would dismiss the ability of a teenager to properly instruct older students.

Indeed, I do absolutely suck in negotiating a forum thread while doing hematology analysis for a two hundred-twenty bed hospital in addition to out patient, pre admit and E.R. specimens. Not that I have a valid excuse or anything.:laugh:

DragonMind

01-19-2007, 10:48

Indeed, I do absolutely suck in negotiating a forum thread while doing hematology analysis for a two hundred-twenty bed hospital in addition to out patient, pre admit and E.R. specimens. Not that I have a valid excuse or anything.:laugh:
I believe she was referring to Stuart's post, not yours. :D

Brian Dugger

01-19-2007, 11:01

I believe she was referring to Stuart's post, not yours. :D

I know, I know, . . . but self depracating humor is the best. The next best is always humor at someone else's expense. Lord knows, I make more than my fair share of faux pas.:laugh:

stuart stratford

01-19-2007, 17:34

The schools in the country are all different some good some not so good my vocal skills are very good and i know that my spelling is shite. But is this a martial arts forum or is it a test of english literature (think i spelt that right).:bangin: :taz: i guess it is alright if you understand i will try my best to do better. What is ph d i have given a lesson with somone with ADHD and age doesent mean you have an ability to teach ok so im only 15 big deal i get the same respect if not more than other teachers and i cortribute as much to.

dao

01-19-2007, 18:13

Struart: Ph. D. is a abbreviation for Doctor of Philosophy. Most people who earn Ph. D's spend years working on their educations learning to speak and write with precision. Therefore, they generally have little patience with people who they perceive as being too lazy to take the time to communicate

For more information Ph. D's go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhD

But guess what? Women can also face the same challenge. People see that a person is younger/smaller/weaker than them and think 'what can this person teach me?'. The respect just takes a little longer to gain.

Not all women are small :wink2: . I am one of the tallest (5 ft 9 3/4 in) and heaviest people in my class (although much smaller than I used to be). I am also fairly strong.

But back to the subject, as someone who taught horseback riding to all age groups in my early to late teens (I think because of my size people thought I was older and more responsable than I actually was), I believe it is better for the teenagers to not assume the responsibilities of teaching until they are older because, you only get to be a teenager once.

stuart stratford

01-19-2007, 18:26

Brian Dugger

01-19-2007, 18:58

I know what a ph d is the way it was put it was like some kind of illness i feel so stupid he he thanks. Anyway the thing is i am at the point where ther is nothing else i can learn fom the other istructors. some ideas i have thought about other clubs and I need the sensi to know alot more than i .

S'okay, Stu. Have you considered looking for an instructor by the name of Martin Dixon www.mma.uk.com ? I've been in clinic with him once. Phenomenal, phenomenal work this man has to impart. Rest assured, he's forgotten more than most of us put together.:eek:

dao

01-19-2007, 19:44

Anyway the thing is i am at the point where ther is nothing else i can learn fom the other istructors. some ideas i have thought about other clubs and I need the sensi to know alot more than i .

The more I learn the less I know....

Nyuck3x

01-19-2007, 20:30

I'd like to pose this question:

Can a child (under 18), who finishes a medical doctorate, be
allowed to practice medicine? If not, why? As one of the
very articulate youth here said, if the kid is smarter than OK...

This is only my opinion...

sean_stonehart

01-19-2007, 20:32

I know what a ph d is the way it was put it was like some kind of illness i feel so stupid he he thanks. Anyway the thing is i am at the point where ther is nothing else i can learn fom the other istructors. some ideas i have thought about other clubs and I need the sensi to know alot more than i .

Nothing else to learn...

... at 15 no less...

My original black belt is older than you.

Keep that thought in mind as you contemplate your achieving what the rest of us keep practicing at...

dao

01-19-2007, 21:11

Eliz

01-19-2007, 21:21

Have you ever heard of a child under 18 being allowed to teach medicine?

Doogie Howser, MD!!! :laugh: :laugh:

On the more serious side of that question: Do as you will but that 17 year old MD will not be advising/cutting on me. Sorry.

I'd like to pose this question:

Can a child (under 18), who finishes a medical doctorate, be
allowed to practice medicine? If not, why? As one of the
very articulate youth here said, if the kid is smarter than OK...

This is only my opinion...

Peter Rehse

01-19-2007, 21:21

Or practice it.

Mark Barlow

01-19-2007, 21:23

Oh, how I miss the seen but not heard days...

Gordon Nore

01-19-2007, 21:38

...Anyway the thing is i am at the point where ther is nothing else i can learn fom the other istructors. some ideas i have thought about other clubs and I need the sensi to know alot more than i...

Ordinarily, I wouldn't bother, but this is too good to resist...

Here's how it works, Stuart.

The people who train you -- your sensei -- know more than you do. Period. Assuming that they continue to train and teach, they probably always will, and that is how you should regard them. When the day comes that you can learn nothing more from them, it is they who should advise you of that fact.

i am 15 i teach adults and in some way they prefer me to teach them i have good teaching skills because i know what it is like to be lerning what i teach that is what makes me better all u have to do is put urself in ther shoes.

Second. You carry on as if the adult students in your dojo are lucky to have you as a teacher. Utter crap. You are very fortunate at such a young age to be entrusted with teaching anyone and should conduct yourself with greater humility. Any teacher of any age should operate from a sense of gratitude that he or she has loyal and willing students.

But is this a martial arts forum or is it a test of english literature (think i spelt that right).

Fortunately, it is indeed a martial forum and not a test of English literacy. The forum guidelines you agreed to (but may have missed) when you registered your account state...

...posts should be typed in clear and concise language, with the aim of using correct spelling and punctuation in order to best facilitate communication with your fellow members.

In other words, members are asked to try compose readable prose. No one is perfect, but I cannot remember the last time I encountered anyone who relished in their lack of skills the way you do.

Gordon Nore

01-19-2007, 21:51

Seriously, I don't think the public schools have been teaching phonetics for the last fifteen to twenty years. Is it me, or has anyone else noticed the carelessness of written/articulation on these threads from our younger associates?:rant:...

Brian et al. Good question.

Actually, at least in North America, the last fifteen years have marked (1) a resurgence of interest in the teaching of phonics, and (2) creative ways of doing it, and (3) a better understanding of the virtues and shortcomings of phonetically-based instruction. I can safely say that every working elementary classroom teacher I know sees some value in phonics.

The trick is, whether one teaches language skills according to phonics or whatever, there is stiff competition from TV, computer games and Internet for the minds of our children. Also, it's dang near impossible to teach someone who already knows everything under the sun. :rolleyes:

David Craik

01-20-2007, 05:29

Doogie Howser, MD!!! :laugh: :laugh:

On the more serious side of that question: Do as you will but that 17 year old MD will not be advising/cutting on me. Sorry.

That was a point of contention for my wife and I when that show was on - her being of the mind that if Doogie is a brilliant doctor, then it doesn't matter what his age is. As for me, I'm with you Liz.

I've wondered if children are taught to pronounce words phonetically anymore as well, usually right after someone butchers my last name. If there was a 'g' instead of a 'k' on the end they'd likely have no problem with it. Change one letter though, and it may as well have been written in Sumerian cuneiform.

Nyuck3x

01-20-2007, 11:49

The point in regards to my question was, the younger you are,
the more prone you are to do things on impulse without considering
the consequences. Even after considering the consequences, many
young people still make the wrong decision due to peer pressure.

Let's face it, there are many young men in the arts today because they
feel that it is a manly means of expression. In today's world of
competition, the only way a person has to show he is worthy of any
praise, is at the expense of another person's dignity. Someone still
learning these values in life should not be teaching adults IMO.

Assisting and the instructing of younger deshi will provide an opportunity
to earn respect. Not only from the younger kohai, but from any
adult observer. Then, once they become adults, they will have the
facilities to do the job as well as have he respect of the older deshi.

A teen seeking respect from their adult counterparts seem to be wanting to
prove something IMO.

Eliz

01-20-2007, 12:52

Nyuck3x

01-20-2007, 13:14

Wow! Thanks for clarifying your previous post. I missed your meaning completely. :)

Ah, you were looking at the star instead of all of the heavenly beauty! Lol!:laugh:

Brian Dugger

01-20-2007, 23:20

Nothing else to learn...

... at 15 no less...

My original black belt is older than you.

Keep that thought in mind as you contemplate your achieving what the rest of us keep practicing at...

:e-lol1: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Now, off to change my shorts.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

DragonMind

01-21-2007, 18:57

the thing is i am at the point where ther is nothing else i can learn fom the other istructors. some ideas i have thought about other clubs and I need the sensi to know alot more than i .
You have obviously missed two very important lessons from your instructor(s). 1) You don't know nearly as much as you think you do, and 2) learning has no end except in stupidity. You would be far better served by shutting your mouth and opening your mind rather than vice versa. A very wise man once said that it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Of you there can now be no doubt.

Brian Dugger

01-21-2007, 20:57

. . . A very wise man once said that it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Of you there can now be no doubt.

King Solomon documented that in Proverbs 17:28, but in an inverse fashion.
Proverbs 29:11 is more direct.
And he also wrote this:
Proverbs 23:9
Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 24:7
Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate.
Proverbs 26:7
The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
Proverbs 26:9
As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouths of fools.
Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

There are plenty more, but :beatdeadhorse:! I think that this one is really appropriate for the circumstance: Proverbs 18:2
A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.:prokefy:
I ask those reading or that will read the thread to forgive me and thank you for being gracious to me for indulging this rant. I understand that some may be sensitive to this sort of thing and again I offer my apologies.

Peter Rehse

01-21-2007, 22:02

Well lets gang up on the little guy.

Maybe I'm saying the same thing in a different way then what I said before but ....

The adults are big people - they are not obliged to take the class or stay with the school and they are perfectly capable of deciding what is inapporpriate for them to do.

If I was the owner of a school I would think very carefully about putting a 15 year old in charge of the class mainly for the sake of the kid (adults can be a funny bunch - even to their peers) but also for my bottom line (same reason).

I have a 12 year old - last Saturday I gave him a mountain of a man (beginner) and told him to teach the guy ukemi. Both gained a lot but I was there to intervene if it wasn't working. Of course there was no problem but I do think an adult has two main advantages over a child both with respect to experience and behaviour development.

An adult is usually far better at forseeing problems and dealing with them beforehand.
An adult is less likely to be dominated by a difficult adult.

And as for the 15 year old that knows it all - well if I even had a whiff at that he wouldn't even be leading the warm-ups.

DragonMind

01-22-2007, 12:01

The wise man I had in mind was actually Abraham Lincoln.

stuart stratford

01-22-2007, 12:29

Webmaster

01-22-2007, 13:16

my sensi is sensi terry shepherd he has imagrated to aus me and other older black belts took over the club and im not learning anything new im just perfecting the things i have lernt and things I have learnt myself i needed advice and all of you who like to look down on others snobishly poked fun out of my problem that im having smugishly. those of you that have tried to help me thank you .

i am still trying to learn remmember

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!!
Stuart:

I can assure you that most folks here are NOT making fun of you, but we are asking that you make more of an effort in communicating clearly. When a person is trying to communicate via writing, the inflections, body language and facial expressions found in verbal communication are absent, and therefore it is much more important to be precise with what you write. So it is not so much that we poke fun at you, but the reality is that half of the time, we have no idea what you are trying to say. Would you like an example from your previous post?

In the beginning of your post, you state "im not learning anything new " and then in the last of your post, you state "i am still trying to learn remmember".

You are not learning anything or you are trying to learn, so which is it?

Folks here (myself included) have made suggestions on how you can make your written communications more clear. I have suggested both a word processing program and even an online word processor. Yet, you either make excuses or fail to even make an attempt to use the suggestions given to you. So don't try and make folks feel sorry for you. If you really believe that "knowledge is power", then I suggest you take it to heart and find some means in which to improve your communications skills.

Returning to the topic at hand, I think that your refusal to try and improve your communications skills is the strongest argument yet for not allowing teenagers to teach adults. At the very least, it is a heck of an argument in YOU not teaching adults.

Koshu

01-22-2007, 15:49

Stuart --- Would you mind posting links to video of one of your teaching sessions -- much appreciated!

Musubi Dojo

01-22-2007, 21:28

Stuart --- Would you mind posting links to video of one of your teaching sessions -- much appreciated!

Oh yeah! I gotta see that...

Koshu

01-22-2007, 23:30

Stuart --- Again, this isn't particularly clear because of how you write, but somewhere in all of your posts, i got the idea that you were pressed into a role of teaching because of a vacuum in the school's leadership. If this is the case, then it's commendable that you've stepped up along with the remaning yudansha to keep the school running --- but it's a shame that we can't clearly glean that from your writings, and the bratty tone of some of your posts dampens our enthusiasm for anything of value you have to say.

Regardless of how good a teacher or student you may be, as a person you clearly remain in need of quality mentoring. As part of this online community, which you voluntarily joined, it's therefore best not to bite the hands that feed.