View Full Version : Is no self-defense training better than just some training for women?
Came across the following page some time ago when researching opinions on women's self defense --> http://www.stripper-faq.org/safety.htm (notably paragraphs 2 and 3)
I wrote the author thoughtfully (I thought anyway) offering up that a school teaching a martial art with an emphasis on using the techniques for practical self-defense certainly had merit for women, even those in professions at higher risk for violence. She replied sharply that she was indeed trained in martial arts, strongly intimated that most martial arts schools typically do not address real-life violent scenarios for women (many would agree with that, I for one) as she's witnessed them in her industry, and that the key issue is that the vast majority of women simply can't be bothered to train intently and long enough to develop muscle-memorized skills and the mental martial toughness needed to effectively utilize what few skills they learn (I recall she stated that many women she knows just dabbled in training for a couple weeks or a month, long enough to learn a few moves and gain a false sense of confidence). She concluded that learning a martial art half-assed essentially contributes to women having their natural survival instincts short-circuited at the time they need to defend themselves. She had apparently witnessed abusive men crossing boundaries with co-workers after hours, the women attempting to use martial-arts techniques poorly delivered that only infuriated the men, who then proceeded to escalate their advances to battery --- sometimes savagely. She felt the women would've been better off using what she believes are natural-born guile and opportunism for self-preservation.
I realize that we as martial artists often tout that "some training is better than none," and this comment is often made with women in mind who realize that self-defense training is sensible (if not imperative in their particular cases), but are tentative or plain afraid to give it a try.
Welcome your thoughts on this.
Mert
Oh my! Well isn't she overgeneralising.
I think here we need to split the thin and really undefinable line between self defence and martial arts. Most martial arts will teach self defence, but some focus on it a lot more than others.
In explanations, any decent self defence class will always say that the best form of self defence is to not get involved, ie. run away, disengage or avoid. I read through that webpage and this is exactly what she is suggesting. She says to be vigilent and avoid things such as public transport where you could be followed after an attack.
The next step if avoidance fails is to call for help. Scream, get the bouncers to come and remove the threat for you. Increase you numbers. Again, no phyical fighting, at least on your part.
Next would come the martial part of self defence, and here is where the martial arts training will become useful. Even if you are incredibly bad at every single technique you have learnt, if you have been training regularly you will be fit enough to possibly disengage and give you a chance to run away.
Basically if it comes to a point where physical confrontation is unavoidable, you can't do any harm learning martial arts, and yes even some training it better than none, provided it is in the context of self-defence not just martial training.
The writer (from the webpage and what you have told us) also makes no mention of those who are dedicated to the martial arts. What would these people do and what is her opinion of these women. Does she even know anyone of this type.
I believe this person has some good ideas, but seriously has misinterpreted the meaning of self-defence.
I agree with the stripper except maybe about letting a woman's 'natural' survival instinct have sway. That part is just too variable.
Danielle, Richard --- Thanks for your perspectives!
The writer (from the webpage and what you have told us) also makes no mention of those who are dedicated to the martial arts. What would these people do and what is her opinion of these women. Does she even know anyone of this type.
I want to clarify that the author was very articulate, seemed intelligent, and was adamant that she was basing her opinions on events she'd personally experienced and/or witnessed. Based on these heavy doses of first-hand reality, training (hand-to-hand self-defense and firearms) and thought, she's developed a physical and mental self-defense methodology that she believes serves her specific needs (her personal Jeet-Kun-Do, if you will; involving avoidance, a simple set of quick-hitting defensive physical techniques, and a custom-smithed handgun [as she describes on her site]). She seemed very proud of this, but clearly felt that most women, in her industry or otherwise, will never take the time to push beyond being martial-arts / self-defense dabblers. One industry-specific issue the author also alluded to is that, unlike the conventional wisdom that criminals look for easy marks and are usually remiss to violently attack victims who appear willing to put up a fight, there's a possession/obsession mindset that often triggers more violence, vs. less, when women reject the men's advances and choose to fight back.
In explanations, any decent self defence class will always say that the best form of self defence is to not get involved, ie. run away, disengage or avoid. I read through that webpage and this is exactly what she is suggesting. She says to be vigilent and avoid things such as public transport where you could be followed after an attack.
The next step if avoidance fails is to call for help. Scream, get the bouncers to come and remove the threat for you. Increase you numbers. Again, no phyical fighting, at least on your part.
Next would come the martial part of self defence, and here is where the martial arts training will become useful. Even if you are incredibly bad at every single technique you have learnt, if you have been training regularly you will be fit enough to possibly disengage and give you a chance to run away.
Danielle --- I think your suggestions are spot on, thanks! The author's comments on her site about overconfidence sometimes leading women trained in martial arts to take more risks with their safety certainly applies to both sexes. One issue to which she alluded in her replies to me was that even if the technical syllabus of a school professing to teach martial arts is sound, drilling students on defensive strategies is often lacking.
As I recall, you mentioned in another BudoSeek thread that you'd taken a self-defense workshop; and based on your above comments, seems you've taken what was taught to heart (in addition to your long-term jujutsu training). Keep in mind that, as the story goes, Model Mugging / Impact was born out of the experience of a female karate black belt who was violently attacked and found the skills she'd learned in the dojo were more or less useless for self defense. So now we also have R.A.D. and other courses specializing in short-term training for women that teach a limited number of techniques to use in a limited number of scenarios and emphasize the mental and emotional skills needed for proper self-defense. Seems the women's self-defense marketers' business plans align with the author's feelings that women overall aren't about concerted long-term martial-arts training. Given the violence-against-women stats (they're staggering here in L.A., and that's just what's reported), and the reality that most women don't train in martial arts, clearly the natural-instincts-alone theory doesn't stand up!
I don't know what short-term self-defense course you attended, or to what degree your jujutsu dojo emphasizes self-defense; but overall taking short-term training focused on defenses against common real-life attacks and combining it with long-term training in an art that's rooted in close-quarters-combat/defensive tactics makes a lot of sense. Be curious to know to what degree what you learned in the short-term course is also covered in your jujutsu training.
Mert
The guy who attacks a stripper after hours may or may not be a career criminal. As soon as he atacks the woman then he is a criminal so that is really not the issue.
Learning Martial arts is no different than being a plumber. You can take a course on some basic stuff to do in an emergency, but it takes years to respond ad hoc to any emergency in an effective manner. This goes for men at least as much as women. Women in high risk occupations like the adult and sex industry need to learn to avoid and control situations, not be fighters. The same could be said for a store clerk that locks up late at night.
. . . it takes years to respond ad hoc to any emergency in an effective manner. This goes for men at least as much as women. Women in high risk occupations like the adult and sex industry need to learn to avoid and control situations, not be fighters. The same could be said for a store clerk that locks up late at night.
Richard --- Agreed!
Mert
I don't know what short-term self-defense course you attended, or to what degree your jujutsu dojo emphasizes self-defense; but overall taking short-term training focused on defenses against common real-life attacks and combining it with long-term training in an art that's rooted in close-quarters-combat/defensive tactics makes a lot of sense. Be curious to know to what degree what you learned in the short-term course is also covered in your jujutsu training.
Mert
Hey the short course I attended was part of something that was organised through my high school in my final year (I went to an all-girls school) so it was really aimed at women. We got to choose it out of a number of options of an 'experience week' of which most girls choose to either go out and do real work experience or an organised deportment course *ick*.
Basically it was combined with a senior first aid course (makes sense when you think about it having them together) over a full 5-day week. In the mornings we did self defence and in the afternoons we did the first aid.
The instructor we got was a guy who seemed pretty experienced with martial arts in general and pretty worldly as well. I think martial arts wise he was focused more on Kung Fu, but it was one of those guys who at the time we just were all staring at in awe at his 5 gold belts and 3 black belts (exaggerating a bit).
If I can remember correctly (I do my best as it was a number of years ago). We started up with basic stances and how to be ready but not appear aggressive. Then we worked on strikes with partners using mits. Focused on using palm strikes, avoiding any fists. Then did some kicking using pads again.
Before practising the strikes we sat down classroom style and he basically gave us a bit of a lecture of which places are the best to strike eg nose, groin. After practising strikes we went of to use basic weapons and how to disarm someone. Weapons I think we did stick (ie. baseball bat or anything similar). How to disarm a knife I think and I remember something about a stabbing with a pen. Thinking back now I believe it would take a lot more practise that what we completed there to be really proficient in any disarms techniques just because they have a weapon and you don’t so there is a higher chance of getting hurt is you don’t do it completely correctly.
After than we did some ground work. Kicking from the ground and how to move around on the ground and stand up correctly (stand up backwards, err, if that makes sense). Also because we were girls did some well I can’t think of anything else to call them back ‘rape’ positions (basically when someone lying between your legs). From this position, we learnt a simple choke and how to roll out of it.
The last day we did very little in terms of physical stuff as it was mostly a sit down lecture of how to avoid confrontation and what to do if you are attacked. Things like running away and being unpredictable (eg, acting disabled or demented to put your attacker out of balance). The instructor did tell us this great story about how he was at a bar with a group of friends and all the women went to the bathroom at once and left their handbags with him. And a group of guys came up to him basically aggressive and making comments about his sexuality considering he was covered in handbags. It somehow ended up getting a bit violent and our instructor ending up trying to swing at these guys, which is rather hard while holding many hangbags and it was basically the sheer amount of handbags swinging around his arms that but his attackers off balance and they went away. Other things such as screaming as a weapon, scream ‘fire’ to get peoples attention, umm if someone has a gun, do what they say, unless they try to take you to another location, then you do what you can to get away. Umm I think that’s about it.
At jujutsu now (I will stress that I don’t have a lot of experience and I am still only a beginner) some of the stuff is the same and some is different. Basically everything we learn is either taught directly as a self defence mechanism (ie. If your attacker is doing this, than you do this) or basic strikes in the form of drills or in the form of a sporting application that has applications for self defence if you just make it a little bit ‘dirty’. There are only a couple of women in the class and out sensei generally makes sure that and stressed it more to us that we know the self defence application of all the sport fighting techniques. So, basically it really is self defence orientated although around competition time we do focus more on sporting.
Differences between the two. I’m not sure I would feel comfortable around a person with a weapon only from the self defence classes, just because they are so darn dangerous and if someone is going to seriously attack you, they will use a weapon, unless reeeeallly stupid, as opposed to the generally stupidity of an attacker in the first place. Some of the ground techniques, and this is coming from what I know more about from doing jujutsu were a bit iffy too. For example, the ‘rape’ position. Could easily be adjusted to ‘in the guard’ which in most cases is a dominant position, even though you are on your back and you can still use the chokes and things that he taught us. Another thing (and I found this out the hard way) when that when we rolled and we ended up on top in ‘the mount’ we were told to slide up so our knees where on the opponents shoulders. In my first experience sparring in jujutsu class (people were going really easy on me so I got in the mount) I slid up on the shoulder and the guy I was kneeling on just gave me a funny look then easily bucked me off, I felt a bit embarrassed.
Wow this is long and I need to go out.
In general, yes I believe the self defence classes were useful, but moreso for the information and lecture type material than the physical stuff. A lot of other self defence classes I have heard of also invite a police officer to give a little bit of a talk to as well. Sure the physical stuff was good as it showed as how to get out of hairy situations and how to strike properly but the lectures I found gave more of an understanding and a bit oh psychology behind your attacker.
As for jujutsu classes, give you even more of an understanding and gives you a better idea of what is my comfort zone in terms of attackers. I haven’t been seriously attacked before so I can’t say that anything is going to work. But it’s more of a ‘do this because of this’ rather than just ‘do this’ because you can build on previous levels of knowledge. I also believe it is better to attempt this sort of thing gradually on resisting opponents, which you may not have time for in a short self defence course. During class we also practise a wider range of attacks. The course was pretty much limited to the hookpunch whereas we learn situations including things such as straight punch, kicks and headlocks.
I would say the more training the better. Because it is not just physically training and learning techniques it is also getting the right frame of mind and being smart about situations and not just thinking ‘I’ll kick you arse’ but ‘how can I get out of this with the least involvement’.
Hope this was useful.
Danielle,
Thanks for taking the time to write out your training experiences, and the contrasts with your jujutsu training. People hoping to better understand the differences between the scopes and purposes of short- and long-term training can certainly benefit from your observations!
Since BudoSeek caters to martial-arts devotees, I doubt we'll get any proponents of the "natural-instincts" school of self-defense chiming in. Nonetheless, there are no doubt many cases of street-wise and/or determined women who've successfully defended themselves without a shred of training. But the odds change when a situation is not a one-on-one empty-handed confrontation. As you alluded to in your last post, the presence of weapons poses a serious problem for someone who hasn't died a thousand deaths practicing weapons defenses in a long-term training program. Ditto for multiple attackers (with or without weapons).
Mert
Since BudoSeek caters to martial-arts devotees, I doubt we'll get any proponents of the "natural-instincts" school of self-defense chiming in.
Natural instincts = Flight or fight?
Do we know in advance if we have fight or flight tendendies? Or do we just find out at the worst possible time?
....Because it is not just physically training and learning techniques it is also getting the right frame of mind and being smart about situations and not just thinking ‘I’ll kick you arse’ but ‘how can I get out of this with the least involvement’.
That pretty well sums up my WSD experience as well. I found it very useful and informative.
Natural instincts = Flight or fight?
Do we know in advance if we have fight or flight tendendies? Or do we just find out at the worst possible time?
Yeah Elizabeth, quite a dice roll! . . . For contrast, here's a different take on the value of natural instincts from a second female self-styled expert on women's safety. Ever heard of Melissa Soalt (a.k.a. Dr. Ruthless, www.dr-ruthless.com )? She reportedly survived multiple attacks using natural instincts, and used those experiences as the basis for developing a personal (and marketable) self-defense system. In a nutshell, her take seems to be that it's important for women to pursue training that develops their feral sensibilities for fight or flight --- with special emphasis on fighting fiercely with no holds barred. While she seems to eschew (at least with a sense of appreciation) the suitability of certain traditional martial arts for dealing with real-lfe physical conflicts, she whole-heartedly advocates that women embrace physical and mental self-defense training.
Mert
Based on Elizabeth's and Danielle's comments above, seems there's a lot of value in the women's short-term reality-based self-defense courses/seminars. It's interesting that there are few (if any) established schools that primarily cater to this type of training (Model Mugging, R.A.D., et al are typically taught periodically, vs. ongoing).
Mert
Mark Barlow
11-19-2006, 13:07
I teach Self Defense classes for Women several times a year. The techniques I cover are incredibly basic and with a little thought, can become second nature. Repeatedly throughout the class, I will emphasize the importance of avoiding potential problems, i.e., not visiting ATMs, Wal-Mart alone at night, not parking close to buildings and in well lit areas, trusting your gut instinct, etc... I get the impression that the young lady who wrote the article feels that instructors are promising to make every lady 10 feet tall and bullet proof. If anything, I want my students to leave feeling more paranoid, not less.
Perhaps she's dealt with incompetent instructors (God knows there are enough of them out there) and assumes we're all Rex Kwon Do masters.
I get the impression that the young lady who wrote the article feels that instructors are promising to make every lady 10 feet tall and bullet proof. . . . Perhaps she's dealt with incompetent instructors (God knows there are enough of them out there) and assumes we're all Rex Kwon Do masters.
Mark --- She didn't clarify in her e-mails if she had issues with her past instructors, but you are so right that there are plenty of instructors who're hanging "self-defense" out on their shingles that shouldn't be! The author did single out the "little kickboxing lessons at the health club" (most likely cardio-kickboxing) as culprits for instilling misplaced confidence in women that they know how to defend themselves. It is unfortunate that people somehow believe that they can defend themselves by studying what amounts to calorie-burning solo kata. Taking Richard's earlier comment a step further: it would be like a person who'd never taken a wrench to a real pipe calling themselves a plumber.
I recall reading an article in a women's self-defense magazine (can't remember the name of the publication right now) featuring the actress Natalie Raitano. Ms. Raitano stated that her self-defense skills essentially boiled down to maintaining excellent fitness. I didn't get a sense from reading the article that Ms. Raitano had trained long, if at all, in a martial art. All things being equal, fitness certainly improves a would-be victim's chances of prevailing if attacked. But there are many extremely accomplished, INCREDIBLY FIT martial artists in sporting styles who openly recognize that their skills specialize in scoring points vs. dealing with dirt-bagging criminals (the early UFC's drove this point home to the general public). Some of these martial artists may believe that an adequate portion of their sporting skills translate to self-defense as is, while others crosstrain in self-defense-oriented styles. But in any case, these are dedicated martial artists, not dabblers (the primary concern of the author) or people who believe that attaining a low resting pulse somehow will make dealing with a knife attack less of an ordeal.
I teach Self Defense classes for Women several times a year. The techniques I cover are incredibly basic and with a little thought, can become second nature. Repeatedly throughout the class, I will emphasize the importance of avoiding potential problems, i.e., not visiting ATMs, Wal-Mart alone at night, not parking close to buildings and in well lit areas, trusting your gut instinct, etc... . . . If anything, I want my students to leave feeling more paranoid, not less. . . .
One of the things that frustrated me during my e-mail exchanges with the author is that she seemed very unwilling to embrace the notion that there are styles/schools/programs that really do offer something of value to women seeking self-defense training. They may be few and far between, but they're out there. Since you and I share an affinity for Japanese jujutsu, I know I'm preaching to the choir on this: if a woman can't avoid a confrontation but has been adequately taught the power of irimi and how to use her body physically as a weapon, she can do a lot of damage in almost no time! I've felt it on the mat, and I've heard it in the stories of female students who've had to use their skills outside of the dojo and survived to tell us about it. Anyway, I'm glad the women in your neck of the woods have your school as a resource.
Mert
Way before I got involved in self-defense/MA, a man put a knife to my back and attempted to rob me. I was having such a horrible day that it seemed like the icing on the cake and I just start laughing. And babbled a story about my day. The encounter ended with him walking me to the bus with a stern warning to stay out of that particular neighborhood. While I would never recommend this a "technique" it was sucessful. I lost no property and remained intact.
MY EXPERIENCE is that the more tools a women has to react to an encounter the better. Knowing how reliable her tools are is I think is crucial so she can choose the best response per the encounter.
That said I do worry overconfidence that comes with training though. An (ex)friend, once took a 6 week self-defense course and was convinced that she could kick anyone's butt and didn't want to hear anything different. WHich led to a tiff... anyway...
Way before I got involved in self-defense/MA, a man put a knife to my back and attempted to rob me. I was having such a horrible day that it seemed like the icing on the cake and I just start laughing. And babbled a story about my day. The encounter ended with him walking me to the bus with a stern warning to stay out of that particular neighborhood.
That is the funniest story I have ever heard, Debra. Maybe if you told him you were crampy and bloated too, he would have given you the money in HIS pocket. :laugh: :laugh:
Yeah, good point (here and elsewhere) about the value of the color code! We spend a lot of time using it in our scenario-based training, such as the need to survey for possible multiple threats/attackers and their positions relative to your points of escape if something triggers you to go beyond yellow.
Debra --- If they could read your post, I think the stripper would be asking me to eat crow and Dr. Ruthless would be upset that an opportunity to demonstrate legally and morally acceptable female empowerment had been squandered! . . . Your story about the knife wielding attacker that turned into a caring escort is just surreal! I read elsewhere in the forums that you also talked your way out of a situation involving a handgun. If you wrote a book entitled "How to Turn Your Attacker into Your Best Friend in 30 Seconds or Less", you'd make a fortune! Anyway, I know that you don't "recommend" spontaneous catharsis as a general-use self-defense tactic since it was appropriate for that situation at that moment with that attacker, but what do you feel were the common factors in both incidents that brought you to the conclusion that communication vs. combat were the right ways to go?
Mert
I don't have time to give this the answer it deserves but, I will if I can get my *favorite expletive* connection working at home :hot:
I don't have time to give this the answer it deserves but, I will if I can get my *favorite expletive* connection working at home :hot:
Hi Debra --- Glad to see you're back up and posting! Certainly would still like to hear your thoughts concerning the confrontations, if you're so inclined.
Mert
My connection at home is still messed up so I post in odd moments at work. So it's hard to write more than brief replies to anything.
My connection at home is still messed up so I post in odd moments at work. So it's hard to write more than brief replies to anything.
That's a bummer. Yeah, I have one PC that's down for the count due to viruses.
Mert
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