View Full Version : knife for SD
okay I know there've been a lot of these posts, but every one I read talks about how it depends on the specific situation. Just wondering if of few of you guys who really know blades could help me out some, (I posted this down here because I usually see more responses from Barry, Kit, Tim and a few others who's opinions I would really like to hear on this matter). This is my situation and what I'm looking for, please bring up any part I may have forgotten to mention or concerns with my assumptions, for a small concealable fixed blade.
1. Fixed blade, (this is the one area I am sure of, from force on force/press. training, and I already have a couple folders).
2. 3"-3.5" blade, something concealable, and God forbid I have to use it, something I can justify carrying (my Ka-Bar might be a little hard to explain).
3. Handle with something easy to maintain grip on (i.e. as un-slippery as possible with blood/water, which I know will still be slippery).
3.b. some kind of hilt or something to prevent my hand from sliding up the blade even after extremely powerful thrusts/stabs (in my experience i have an easier time using thrusts then slashes/hacks under pressure.)
4. Don't know if this would have anything to do with it, but I am left-handed.
5. I carry my weapon in my left front pants pocket, (or jacket pocket if cold).
6. I am trained/most comfortable in FMA martial arts when dealing with a blade, so hearing from some of the above mentioned FMAers would really help.
7. I see a lot of blades with some kind of triangular protrusion out of the back side of the blade (like Bam Frank's Gunting, or Abaniko) which I really like, because I often press my thumb to the back of the blade to really dig into my guntings and joint destructions.
8. Single edged (for legal concerns, and more practically my own safety).
9. Full normal blade or partially serrated, again not sure, but I am leaning toward partial serrated.
10. i have normal to small sized hands so a short handle would probably not be a problem.
11. Something reasonably affordable
12. This is not to be a utility blade, I know the arguments about being better able to defend your use of force with something that has a utility use, but I will also be carrying a utility-like folder, and would only engage this weapon if warranted. That being said if there's a knife best tailored to what I've mentioned that has some utility use, I would not object to it.
13. This is optional but would be a definite plus, something that had a closely modeled trainer version, or generic enough that I could begin training with a very similar model.
Aright, hope that's specific enough for you, and as previously mentioned please bring up any characteristics I may have missed. Thank you for any help and information.
Dan Smith
Oh, and did forget to mention. No kerambits please, they serve their purpose very effectively, but aren't designed for stabs/thrusts, and an attorney would have a field day questioning me about carrying one. Thank you again.
Dan Smith
Choose a knife which you won't mind having labled "People's Exhibit No. 1" and passed around among a jury of your peers. If it looks like Rambo or a Klingon would own it then you might have a hard time convincing them of your harmless, self-defense only, intent.
When I had used to carry a knife I picked a Shrade, Old Grandad folding hunter with elk horn grips. Basically it was just like a Buck in the way the lock blade worked. And I taught myself to open it one-handed without a Flick-It or any other add-on contraption. It isn't that hard.
Gan Uesli Starling
Kalamazoo MI
Tang-Soo-Architect
11-23-2006, 11:55
A butter knife, preferably plastic.
Or how about a chainsaw! That'll scare the bad guys away.
:up:
David Craik
11-24-2006, 07:30
A fixed blade in a pants pocket?
Mr. Smith,
You may have notice that you are not gettingt the answers you want. I attribute this to several factors.
One, being the question has the potential to be misinterpreted or abused by many who read this as it is a public forum. Another is as was mentioned carrying a knife designed other than lets say a pocket knife carries the conotation of lookin for trouble or psycho. A prosecutor or D.A. will have a field day with it wheter justified or not. Even in right to carry states you are better off getting a CCW then carrying a knife.
LEO have different set of circumstances that may allow them or at least justify having a knife and its usage.
If you are an LEO then look at your policy, talk to the more experienced personnel, including your D.T. guys/gals.
If you're not, train in a Philipino/Kali style as they concentrate on weapons and then you'll have a better understanding on knife works wheter for defensive or offensive purposes.
Good luck.
David Craik
11-24-2006, 10:55
If it weren't for the 'no-slip' grip requirement, I'd look at the RAT-3 made by Ontario..but then I'm a sucker for linen Micarta. Usually with a knife that small I'd go with a folder..the LAWKS system used on some CRKT knives like their "M-16" series is pretty strong. Failing that, a decent neck knife may fit the bill like the Cold Steel ParaEdge.
It seems to me that a sheathed knife inside a pocket would be pretty slow into action though.
Sorry for the delay, I've just been swamped the last couple weeks. Thank you for all the response posts, I've been doing a lot of looking on my own as well. Haha, the chainsaw is tempting, but that's just slightly more conspicous, and maybe a tad too court-room-unfriendly for what I'm looking for. Mr. Urena, thank you for the advice, that's basically what I was trying to communicate in my post, but good to see you know what I'm talking about. Mr. Craik, thanks for the suggestions, I'm using those as a starting point, I've heard some good things about Micarta knives, and will check out the others as well. Thanks again guys.
Dan Smith
student14
04-02-2007, 08:15
Mr. Smith,
You may have notice that you are not getting the answers you want. I attribute this to several factors.
One, being the question has the potential to be misinterpreted or abused by many who read this as it is a public forum. Another is as was mentioned carrying a knife designed other than lets say a pocket knife carries the conotation of lookin for trouble or psycho. A prosecutor or D.A. will have a field day with it wheter justified or not. Even in right to carry states you are better off getting a CCW then carrying a knife.
I totally agree with this.
Listen, in my opinion, a knife is one of the last weapons I would be carrying on the street. First, it's the liability of the whole thing. If you are caught in a knife fight, even if in self defense, you will be locked up. The police officer will not stop to ask if it was a self defense situation, they will see an individual with a knife ( bloody knife if you used it) and they will arrest you.
You would be much better off with a stun gun, pepper spray, or a taser gun (check your town to make sure that stun guns and tasers are legal.) These types of self defense weapons are much easier to use and will get you in a lot less trouble than a knife or a gun.
Self Defense Products (http://www.projectsecuritycorp.com)
Wow, first time I have actually seen this thread!
I'm gonna buck the trend and say that a knife is a great weapon for self defense. You are probably better off with a folder than a fixed blade for daily civilian carry. I know, the fixed blade is quicker to deploy under duress, but carry options and the whole "savage killer walking the streets" thing (which will be the argument of the defense attorney or the prosecutor, depending on which side you end up on...) is minimized. Some of that is regionally specific - both for local laws and prosecutorial climate.
I'd have to quibble with some things:
Its not about a "knife fight." These so rarely occur outside of movies and martial arts fantasies (entire arts center around them) as to be nearly unheard of.
A knife as a last ditch weapon of self defense can indeed save your life and used appropriately may be completely justifiable. I can think of several recent incidents in my city in which knives were used in self defense and no charges were filed. Same with a few firearms homicides.
You may get arrested, but that is hardly being convicted.
A stun gun is next to useless against a committed attacker. You are better off with the closed folder as an fist load impact weapon than a stun gun.
Pepper spray affects some, others not so much. It also has the problem of cross- and self-contamination.
Tasers would seem like a good choice but I believe the civvy version only gives you one shot. I've seen too many Taser failures, based on weapon malfunction or probe placement (or just a plain miss), that I would by no means bet on one in SD. An LEO has plenty of other tools if the Taser doesn't do what it is supposed to.
A knife is a lethal weapon - we don't need to re-hash that discussion, but search for it, read it and understand the decision you are making in carrying a knife with any inkling toward self defense. You can dispense with any notion of "biomechanical cutting" or any cutting in a "less lethal" manner right now.
Offering less lethal alternatives (stun gun, spray, taser) is ill advised - they are meant for situations in which potentially lethal response is not warranted. Two different things and they should not be confused.
Tony's right, you are probably better off with a CCW if you are that serious about going armed for self defense.
Then TRAIN with it!!!
David Anderson
04-04-2007, 22:50
My current pocket fave is the CRKT Convergence folder. It can be opened and closed with one hand and is completely ambidexterous. It's not very large [just over 3"] and it looks 'friendly'...ie. not threatening or 'tactical' in the least. Just don't let anybody see you open it with one hand... It has a secondary lock [that locks the liner lock in place] that makes the opened knife exceptionally rigid.
This knife isn't designed as a weapon or for martial arts use...but as a last-ditch weapon, or something used by surprise, it would do just fine.
Whether or not a knife is a _good_ weapn for self-defense I'll leave for others to debate...but one senior martial arts instructor of my acquaintance thinks that the Convergence is the perfect knife to carry when traveling....
Jeff Burger
04-05-2007, 03:20
I'm still a big fan of the pen.
Wow. What a cool thread. And I'm trying out Sayoc this weekend.
Tony and Kit making very good points in two directions - that's a great way to learn something.
Kit, I know what you mean about pepper spray having the problem of cross- and self-contamination. My buddy wound up gassing himself once - he sprayed out the window of his room to see if the can of gas (this was actually tear gas, labeled CS) was still good or not. The wind blew it back in on him and dropped him like a stone. I rush over to his room to find out what happened and get a taste of the gas, too. Yummy. :D
Since then, Dumb and Dumber have been our favorite theme.
What is CCW?
And as for knives, nobody has mentioned this: http://premiumknives.com/ShopSite/Applegate_Fairbairn_AF_11_Boker_Applegate_Fairbair n_Fighting_Knife.html
http://www.agrussell.com/knives/tactical/boker_applegate_fairbairn_combo_edge.html
There are folding versions, too.
I'm curious to know what people think as I know nothing about knives.
Oh, except that this one, especially in 8 cm, is deadly against apples: http://www.frenchgeneralstore.com/gifts/opinel.html
What is CCW?
Concealed Carry Weapon. Used to refer to a handgun carrying permit.
DragonMind
04-05-2007, 15:11
There are a lot of issues to consider in this decision. Size and design of the knife effect the deployment speed, carry location, and perceptions of the jury at your trial. I think the best compromise for those factors is a 3-3.5 in folding knife from a commonly known manufacturer (e.g. Gerber, Buck, Spyderco, etc) that has an easily grasped utilitarian function. Many people carry a pocket knife for all sorts of uses and you want to be seen as one of them. Even with the hysteria we have masquerading as security in this country, there are still a lot of places I can carry my knife that a handgun would be a lot more difficult if not outright impossible to carry. I can't afford the time or funds to maintain the proficiency I would need to feel comfortable carrying a handgun. I also have a thing against single-use tools. :D
Realize this kind of knife will be a slow to deploy option, so you better practice your awareness skills regularly. If that blade isn't already in your hand and open BEFORE the attack starts, you have virtually no chance of ever getting it into play for real. If you're willing to make a little more effort in arguing before a jury/DA, you might consider a fixed blade. Again, it needs to look and function as a utility knife. My first choice there is the Hide Away Knife straight utility model. Mine is attached to my id badge and plenty of people have seen me open boxes with it, so I'll have a bunch of witnesses to call regarding its everyday use. A lot of folks also hang a LED light off it too to make it look even more utilitarian. Deployment is fast and it will cut what I need to cut. It works well as a neck carry or attached to a cell phone holder.
I also know that my background is going to be an issue if I have to use a blade. I know why Kit is arguing against bio-mechanical cutting and less than lethal force response, and for the majority of people I agree with him. I also think the issue in my case will be that because of my training I should have the skill and judgment to be able to use less than lethal force. My main carry blade does give me that option. If the situation really does escalate to lethal, I want my tool to already be in my hand. I also have the same right to defend my life as anyone else. Yes, it is an issue of risk management - my safety vs. possible legal consequences. I make my choices but don't expect anyone else to make the same choice.
BTW,that CCW also covers the blade you carry as well as a handgun. At least here in Florida it does. And here it is referred to as a CWP: Concealed Weapons Permit.
Jeff makes an excellent point as well. A good, stout pen/pencil makes a dandy little defensive tool. Just ask anyone who has felt Robert slap a yawara on them. I can't afford Mont Blanc so I really like the Rotring line at Staples and Office Depot. I also really like my Surefire Z2 flashlight.
Funny you mention Mont Blanc, Barry.
My wife gave me one for my birthday many years ago. It'll be a cold day in hell before I'll risk damaging it. I'll stick (literally) to my Bic.
Barry
RE: background
I think its yes and no. It may certainly be an issue that the lawyers may bring up, but ultimately it will be a matter of law: if you were justified in using lethal force, you were justified in using lethal force.
If you were not within your rights to use lethal force, you should not be using kan bare blade by any stretch.
Try explaining being a "highly trained knife expert" who killed someone "by mistake" when they thought they were just trying to cut him "a little," when a lethal weapon was not justified in the first place.
Now THAT is a ticket to the pokey....
DragonMind
04-07-2007, 12:53
Barry
RE: background
I think its yes and no. It may certainly be an issue that the lawyers may bring up, but ultimately it will be a matter of law: if you were justified in using lethal force, you were justified in using lethal force.
If you were not within your rights to use lethal force, you should not be using kan bare blade by any stretch.
Try explaining being a "highly trained knife expert" who killed someone "by mistake" when they thought they were just trying to cut him "a little," when a lethal weapon was not justified in the first place.
Now THAT is a ticket to the pokey....You are correct in that it should be solely a matter of law. However, we both know how sensationalism and emotion can be used to sway a jury away from consideration of just the legal aspects.
I was remiss in not mentioning the main blade I carry (Gunting) is also designed to be used unopened. Having it in my hand would be in a closed position for the less than lethal component. At that point it would be employed as an impact and manipulation tool rather than as a blade so as to forestall the "accidental" cutting you mentioned.
We've discussed the issue of bio-mechanical cutting before and I see your points. My leaning is to put that in the realm of knife combat instead of self defense. Blade on blade encounters among trained combatants is rarely ended by a single lethal technique. One aspect of the targeting in FMA is based on the openings in armored opponents. These tend to be located at the joints and don't expose lethal targets. By disabling those joints through bio-mechanical techniques, you gain the opportunity to reach lethal targets. Different mindset altogether than self defense.
Not only judge and juries but, prosecuters offices. In an iffy self-defense case even if involves a fatality then charges may not even be brought because the prosecuter is afraid of losing the case. Not that this is something I would want to bank on.
I'd rather take it to court than to the grave.
Well said. But let's look at knife vis-a-vis self defense to get some juices flowing....
A knife is a good self defense weapon; however, I would only draw it if someone else was using another knife or a gun. I use a fold out knife, it is old and I forget the particular brand, but I keep it on me to open boxes and cut packaging open. If I got caught with it, I would tell that same story what I do with it.
Your threshold *may* be too low. It is entirely situational. Weapons do not have to come into play for the encounter to warrant deadly force.
If you are assaulted empty handed by multiple attackers, but whom are causing you reasonable concern that they may maim or kill you, you are justified in using a knife. If even a single attacker so overpowers or overwhelms you that the blade is a last ditch effort because you reasonably believe you are in fear of your life (or continuing your life in one piece), you are justified in using a blade.
As for folders - so long as they can be accessed and opened with one hand, when under pressure as in the events described, you are good to go. Any knife requiring two hands to open is not optimal for defensive purposes.
In the case knife fighting, there is an escalation in hostility.
Yeah, but in actuality it will little resemble that, except in the rarest of situations. Again, I think we need to re-emphasize "Knife for Self Defense" or " Fighting with a Knife." "Knife Fighting," knife on knife, is pretty much confined to the martial arts dojo. Its far cooler and certainly what people want, but the dynamics of a blade being brought into a real fight tend to be more prosaic.
I was taught cut the forearm; then if persisted, cut at the junction of the elbow. After that, I doubt any normal person would want to continue the fight, much less hold the weapon. However how many normal attackers are out there? :laugh:
This is the bio-mechanical cutting approach. It could work fine. It could be fatal to you in an actual lethal confrontation if it doesn't work. Banking on your attacker being a "normal" person - especially if that encounter has gotten to the point that you to feel justified in producing a knife - is problematic.
Might be fine. Maybe not. Always err on the side of NOT underestimating your opponent. Don't expect anything to work the way you think it will and you won't be disappointed if it doesn't. If it works, BONUS!!!
If it goes beyond that, I incorperate my jujitsu with the knife and then the fight will end one way or the other.
Your jujitsu will probably be incorporated long before that. In most cases it may mean the difference between your even getting your knife deployed in the first place. As well, in many cases you will think the fight is "unarmed" until you note his weapon.
We need to dispense with the idea of the squared off, sink my weight, steely gaze and dramatic stances of dueling schools (knife or sword.)
Picture instead a hockey fight. A jacket pulled up over your head and a blade pumped into you repeatedly underhanded or from a hammer fist. Maybe you don't even know its a knife....
Or, a man approaches you from the front and ask for change and suddenly you are violently off balanced backward - a knife immediately pressed into your throat or groin as the man in front grabs the back of your head pulling you into him, his face inches from yours demanding money, taking advantage of his partner's surprise attack on you; all the while pulling you into an alley or other tight quarters to minimize your movement and potential witnesses...
When chosing a knife, make sure you purchase a practice blade look-a-like. That way it has the same feel as the one you carry. That way as you train with the look-a-like, you are essentially training with the real thing. I know Cold Steel has some good blades, fixed and fold out. They also have the same practice blades as well.
Excellent recommendation. I would also encourage people to leave the hakama or the fifteen-blade-harness thingy aside and practice wearing everyday clothes with your blade where you carry it.
Try to minimize extraneous motion in your drawstroke. This will improve speed, and decrease the attacker's opportunities to foul your draw/disarm you. Practice clearing covering garments if you ever wear them and it affects the draw. Practice drawing standing, lying on the ground face up/face down, and in conjunction with guard work and with one of your arms tied up. Practice your draws right and left handed - you might get stuck having to draw with the off hand if your primary hand is engaged during a clinch or injured...
Then break out the drones and practice against resistance standing and grounded.
Great post, Greg, good stuff.
I'd rather take it to court than to the grave.
A knife is a good self defense weapon; however, I would only draw it if someone else was using another knife or a gun. I use a fold out knife, it is old and I forget the particular brand, but I keep it on me to open boxes and cut packaging open. If I got caught with it, I would tell that same story what I do with it.
In the case knife fighting, there is an escalation in hostility. I was taught cut the forearm; then if persisted, cut at the junction of the elbow. After that, I doubt any normal person would want to continue the fight, much less hold the weapon. However how many normal attackers are out there? :laugh:
If it goes beyond that, I incorperate my jujitsu with the knife and then the fight will end one way or the other. Life is precious even for scumbags.
When chosing a knife, make sure you purchase a practice blade look-a-like. That way it has the same feel as the one you carry. That way as you train with the look-a-like, you are essentially training with the real thing. I know Cold Steel has some good blades, fixed and fold out. They also have the same practice blades as well.
I don't know how good you are in escrima but I would just run if faced with an attacker of any weapon especially a knife. If you're cornered I wouldn't bother cutting his forearm and seeing if he wants to continue. It's a life or death matter at that point. Give a untrained person a knife and he will stick you like a pig. If given the chance to cut an attacker, cut him good and put him down or at least make sure he's disarmed. Now I might be biase in my comment because I know that good kali/escrima people are trained to deal with people attacking you with a knife but I disagree with cutting the forearm and seeing if he wants to continue and I also highly doubt any honest sensible teacher would teach you to just cut the forearm and see if he wants to continue the fight. At that point you've lost the initative and giving your threat another oppurnity to stick a piece of steel into you.
DragonMind
05-29-2007, 16:04
The drills I do with my students involve cutting the limb that is attacking you simply as a practical matter since it is usually the closest thing to you. That same cut then turns into a check and offensive counter-attack instantly. I joke with them that we practice the Art of Plan B to get them into the idea of flowing with the events as they unfold and that every Plan A can fail. Combat is dynamic and fluid. As Kit points out, it is choreographed by the Bad Guys and not according to your dojo script.
As for folders, my experience has been that if it isn't already in your hand and open before the attack starts, you stand very little chance of ever opening it. Some of my LEO buddies tell me that certain organizations have switched entirely to fixed blade neck knives so that they can get them into play during an attack. I've been doing a lot of experimenting with a HAK (http://www.hideawayknife.com/main.php) utility for that reason. Of course, I've also been putting a lot of holes in shirts...
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