Tameshigiri and its place in Aikido if any.

[Aikitech]

I recently did some training seminars with a visiting Japanese Aikido Instructor who is also quite versed in Kendo (including the use of 2 swords) among many other Budo and defensive tactics systems.

At the culmination of the seminars, which included the local Kendo instructor, we practiced some Tameshigiri (test cutting) using a live blade on lengths of bamboo. I had never done tameshigiri before, but after having trained a lot with bokken for the past few days in the seminars my confidence was pretty good considering how many bad stories I've heard about Aikidoka who try to play with live blades or use their Aikiken knowledge in a Kendo/live blade environment. I was the only pure Aikido person amid all these Kendoka (the local Kendo class took part also). My results were pretty good (gut stuck only about 3 times out of over 40 cuts using Yokomen Uchi) and once I kept using proper technique the blade cut through the bamboo like butter. (The feeling was kinda addictive actually :cool: )

The feel of cutting however helped solidify certain teachings I have received in the past regarding atemi, the proper use of tegatana and the correct application of body power in execution of Aikido waza. In one test cutting session things explained about sword movements and sword usage years ago suddenly became crystal clear.

So my question is, since so much of Aikido comes directly from the use of the sword, do you think that regular "live" exercises such as tameshigiri should be used to engender a better understanding of the use of a live sword once a certain degree of proficiency is reached? Most Aikiken practice is centred around suburi and paired kata, there is pretty much no training where one gets an understanding of how the cuts done in the air with Bokken will actually affect a solid target when hit.

During this practice I also learnt something new about the generation and placement of power and focus when I used my unsharpened Iaito to cut through a banana tree that was just under a foot thick. This really shocked me since I thought that a dull, nickel-steel blade could never cut cleanly through something that thick (I actually thought the Iaito would break). Again this helped me understand just how precise application of power can have some unexpected results when executed in an environment specifically designed to judge the effectiveness of that applied power.

Any thoughts are welcome. I just wanted to share.
:bow:

[Ron Tisdale]

Hey Larry,


when I used my unsharpened Iaito to cut through a banana tree that was just under a foot thick.

wow, that kind of scares me...is that safe? Glad you didn't get hurt. I don't really know enough about iaito to know though...

I think shinkendo is the closest thing to aikido/aikibudo with swords and tameshigiri...I don't know of another style that officially does that. I do know aikido dojo where iai is taught though...and some of those do practice tameshigiri in their iai.

Tried it once myself with a chen blade...loads of fun, not too embarassing. I think it does help in the way you mention, and I wish I had more opportunities to try it. Probably the hardest part is finding a qualified instructor to set it up and supervise it.

Best,
Ron

[Aikitech]

Hi Ron,

Hey Larry,
wow, that kind of scares me...is that safe? Glad you didn't get hurt. I don't really know enough about iaito to know though...Actually this was something I never thought was possible and I would have never tried it on my own. Even the storekeepers in Japan where the Iaito was bought said that it could not cut anything and I took their word for it. I used it only to practice suburi, nuki and for demos where we did sword takeaways using Aikido waza. The local Kendo Instructor and the Japanese Instructor both assured me that it could be done. However on my first attempt I still did not believe and did the cut using only the outer tip of the blade (about 2 inches or so) which was pointy enough to slash through. This cut went straight through but did not go deep enough to cut the entire width of the tree. They assured me again that I should use the length of the blade near the kissaki, I took a leap of faith and did the cut much like I used the live blade on the bamboo (I had prepared to depart with my Iaito as well as take cover if it fell apart and pieces started flying). The result truly shocked me as the top of the tree stayed atop the rest of the trunk and the Kendo sensei took it off and showed me the cut that went straight through. Had I not seen/done it I would not have believed it, not with a dull blade. Later on the Japanese sensei told me that my dull Iaito could in fact cut through a human wrist if used properly. This was very interesting news for me.:eek:


I think shinkendo is the closest thing to aikido/aikibudo with swords and tameshigiri...I don't know of another style that officially does that. I do know aikido dojo where iai is taught though...and some of those do practice tameshigiri in their iai.Same here, I know the Shinkendo guys do it but not sure if it is comon practice in other schools. Even in Obata's system Shinkendo is taught as a separate art to his Aikibudo so unless one studies in both classes an Aikibudo student may not be exposed to the tameshigiri stuff they do in the Shinkendo class.


Tried it once myself with a chen blade...loads of fun, not too embarassing. I think it does help in the way you mention, and I wish I had more opportunities to try it. Probably the hardest part is finding a qualified instructor to set it up and supervise it.Agreed. I think we used a Chen blade also. I would not have tried that at all without proper supervision, when holding a live blade one's entire demeanour changes. Not the same as holding a Bokken or a dull Iaito. For me the reality that someone could die if the blade was mishandled was quite apparent. It showed the reason for all that sword etiquette training also imo.

It was great fun though, I plan to do it again sometime soon.

Regards.
:bow:

[Mark Barlow]

Larry,

I'm with Ron on this one. The only aikido group I know of who regularly practices tameshigiri is Obata Sensei's organization. While not all of the Shinkendo students train in aikido or aikibujutsu, I think the majority of the Tanren Kenkyukai folks train in Shinkendo.

When you come to visit, I can put you in touch with a couple of local iaido instructors, if you'd like. We spent a lot of time with Toshi Takikawa studying kenjutsu as it applied to Jujutsu and I agree that it lends itself to both focus and settling.

[Aikitech]

Larry,

I'm with Ron on this one. The only aikido group I know of who regularly practices tameshigiri is Obata Sensei's organization. While not all of the Shinkendo students train in aikido or aikibujutsu, I think the majority of the Tanren Kenkyukai folks train in Shinkendo.

When you come to visit, I can put you in touch with a couple of local iaido instructors, if you'd like. We spent a lot of time with Toshi Takikawa studying kenjutsu as it applied to Jujutsu and I agree that it lends itself to both focus and settling.
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the clarification. I am not very aware of Obata Sensei's training structure so I was speaking from what I may have read online a long time ago. I remember he kept the Aikibudo and Shinkendo classes separate, but as you said, most of the Aikibudo guys train in both arts. I know you and some of the other Akayama Ryu folks trained with him in the past as well as Takikawa Sensei. It would be great to check out the local Iaido folks when I come over. From what I've heard of Takikawa Sensei's skill with a sword I would not mind being privy to some of that training either if you are willing.

Thanks for the info and assistance.
:bow:

[Mark Barlow]

Ask Worthington Sensei to tell you about Toshi's bearhunts with his sword. As hard as it is to believe, he actually went bear hunting twice with a katana. The guy's got some serious tsurigane.

[Aikitech]

Ask Worthington Sensei to tell you about Toshi's bearhunts with his sword. As hard as it is to believe, he actually went bear hunting twice with a katana. The guy's got some serious tsurigane.I remember the stories, that is what I was referring to above. Also heard about him wanting to go hunting an Alabama 'gator with a traditional spear that he made. It would be great if he came over to the US again to visit sometime. I'd love to meet him.

Domo.
:bow:

[Mark Barlow]

I remember the stories, that is what I was referring to above. Also heard about him wanting to go hunting an Alabama 'gator with a traditional spear that he made. It would be great if he came over to the US again to visit sometime. I'd love to meet him.

Domo.
:bow:

He works for Kubota at their national headquarters in Georgia. He's retired from teaching but every year I try to drag him to one of our Camps. The last one he attended was in Birmingham about 7 years ago.

[Aikitech]

He works for Kubota at their national headquarters in Georgia. He's retired from teaching but every year I try to drag him to one of our Camps. The last one he attended was in Birmingham about 7 years ago.Good to hear he's not far away. Sad to hear he's no longer teaching though. Would be good if we could get him for a seminar someday.

:bow:

[Aikitech]

Just to get back on topic. In Aikido training since the seminar I've found that applying the same body movements with tegatana (hand blade) as if using a live sword creates atemi that is extremely more powerful and more focussed than if one moves as if "striking with their hands". This reminds me of some training with Shishida Shihan where for all intents and purposes he used his tegatana as if it were an actual katana in his waza. It felt like it too when he hit you.

Interesting applications.
:bow:

[Maro]

Hi Ron,
Actually this was something I never thought was possible and I would have never tried it on my own. Even the storekeepers in Japan where the Iaito was bought said that it could not cut anything and I took their word for it. I used it only to practice suburi, nuki and for demos where we did sword takeaways using Aikido waza.


Be careful with your Iaito. If it was bought in Japan like you said, then it won't be steel. It will be Zinc Alloy. They have no strength on impact with objects and you run the risk of snapping it.

If it is steel, you should still be careful but don't be surprised that you can cut through things. It may not be sharp but it has an edge which is sufficient to get through soft items.

Remember all those guys who slice and dice watermelons on TV? You can do the same with a broomstick handle.

[Aikitech]

Be careful with your Iaito. If it was bought in Japan like you said, then it won't be steel. It will be Zinc Alloy. They have no strength on impact with objects and you run the risk of snapping it.This is what I thought originally. However the folks who sold it indicated that it was Nickel, not Zinc Alloy. Nevertheless I would not risk having it impact on anything, not even to find out if they were right. When the Kendo/Aikido Sensei visited he indicated that it was in fact Nickel Steel (never heard of that myself) and was a lot stronger than I had thought. This Sensei has his own personalized design and gets his cutting blades custom made in China, so I'm guessing he had a better understanding of sword metallurgy than I.

Generally though I plan to use a shinken if I really take up tameshigiri in future (not sure how banana trees rate in consistency vis a vis straw mats or bamboo), would not be trying it with my Iaito even though I know it can cut some things now.


If it is steel, you should still be careful but don't be surprised that you can cut through things. It may not be sharp but it has an edge which is sufficient to get through soft items. Yeah this is what I realised after that tameshigiri session. My surprise though was not so much due to the strength of the blade but that with a blunt edge it could give such a clean cut.


Remember all those guys who slice and dice watermelons on TV? You can do the same with a broomstick handle. Of course, but then it takes almost zero skill to cut the right watermelon with anything, they tend to want to split down the middle if the fruit are properly selected for demonstration.

Thanks for the info.
:bow:

[Bugeisha]

Agreed. I think we used a Chen blade also. I would not have tried that at all without proper supervision, when holding a live blade one's entire demeanour changes. Not the same as holding a Bokken or a dull Iaito. For me the reality that someone could die if the blade was mishandled was quite apparent. It showed the reason for all that sword etiquette training also imo.


I haven't done any cutting, or sword work with live blades, but I worked in a Japanese Import store for a few years, and we occasionally sold shinken. On the rare occasions I handled them, the difference in feeling from an iaito (which we also sold) and a shinken was intense. I understand now why people talk about a sword having its own spirit.

[Jeremy Hulley]

FWIW
Training in a sword art with a qualified instructor will help your Aikido. Tamshigiri alone won't do much without the instrction to support it. It was several years before I could see how my iai practice influenced my empty hand practice.
Look for ways to incorporate the "sharp" feeling of cutting into your aikido practice. Work on making your kihon movements crisp and clean like a good sword cut.
Best
Jeremy

[Xuzen]

Just to get back on topic. In Aikido training since the seminar I've found that applying the same body movements with tegatana (hand blade) as if using a live sword creates atemi that is extremely more powerful and more focussed than if one moves as if "striking with their hands". This reminds me of some training with Shishida Shihan where for all intents and purposes he used his tegatana as if it were an actual katana in his waza. It felt like it too when he hit you.

Interesting applications.
:bow:

I am a firm believer that atemi is what makes aikido technique shows its fangs, so to speak. Let me explain further...

I find that to apply aikido technique on a fully resistant opponent will very quickly become a contest of strength (for unskilled people) or grappling (for those who knows grappling art), unless you preceed the technique with atemi to create the opportunity or openings.

I am all for any training methodologies that will improve the atemi effect. And sword arts such as kenjutsu or kendo are good candidates.

[Itten]

Hello Larry,

I practice and teach both Aikikai aikido and Shinkendo and would definitely endorse your perception that tameshigiri can improve atemi skills, and for a number of reasons. Most people with some experience in MA, and with a decent instructor, can cut with a live blade the first time they try. However as you move on to more advanced cuts, combination cutting, and particularly reverse cuts such as tsubamagaeshi, all aspects of body training begin to show. Are you cutting from center or shoulders, is your spine properly aligned,does your footwork deliver power from the ground, is your grip strong and the rest of you relaxed, has your body weight dropped with the fall of your blade, is there proper blade alignment throughout the cut (hasuji), and so on. All of these aspects and others are directly relevant to atemi, and of course to aikido as well.
With respect I would also caution against cutting harder targets with an iaito. Most only have a single retaining pin (mekugi) and the chance of the whole blade snapping behind the tsuba is great, especially if the blade alignment is not correct and there is a lot of power in your grip. If this happens it will fly and although unsharpened the tip can do serious damage:o

[Aikitech]

Great post Alec. I agree totally with what you have said.

Regarding cutting with Iaito, I honestly would never have attempted such had those more knowledgeable than I not said it were safe (in fact my first attempt was still wrought with disbelief). As it stands I don't plan to practice tameshigiri at all if not with proper supervision and a good cutting blade. As far as I'm concerned my Iaito has returned to the realm of suburi, drawing practice and demos.

What you said above about structural/spinal alignment, footwork, ground power delivery etc. were spot on from my experience. In our Aikido these things are critical factors for proper waza.

Thanks for the info.
:bow:

[Ron Tisdale]

some very good caveats there. I think one of my greatest problems the first time cutting (and probably the next time too) is the lack of ability to focus the power so that I don't leave myself exposed after the cut. Frequent error by newbies...

Best,
Ron (says something about balanced and focused atemi...I think...)

[Aikitech]

some very good caveats there. I think one of my greatest problems the first time cutting (and probably the next time too) is the lack of ability to focus the power so that I don't leave myself exposed after the cut. Frequent error by newbies...

Best,
Ron (says something about balanced and focused atemi...I think...)I can relate to what you mean Ron. An interesting thing that helped to get my cuts correct when I used the shinken on the bambo was to visualize that I was actually cutting down an opponent. It was interesting how things automatically started to align themselves, ma ai got self-corrected, power was applied in the right areas at the right time, stance and follow through adjusted accordingly etc.

The first couple times when my mindset was that of "cuttting bamboo" things went screwy, with the cuts failing to penetrate the bamboo. If I had not used this same mindset that I used with the Shinken when using the Iaito on the banana tree then the results may have been quite different for my Iaito... and the tree.:)

Getting back to the Aikido linkages. Itten wrote:

Are you cutting from center or shoulders,...
is your spine properly aligned,...
does your footwork deliver power from the ground,...
is your grip strong and the rest of you relaxed,...
has your body weight dropped with the fall of your blade,...
is there proper blade alignment throughout the cut (hasuji)
Imho the above is a good list from which one can judge the quality of their Aikido atemi in both kata type training and resistance practice.

Cutting or moving from the centre instead of the shoulders is a major element of understanding good aiki waza imho. It is often the difference between an unbalanced, over extended attack/waza and one that is controlled, powerful, stable and balanced.

Structural/spinal alignment and footowork that delivers power from the ground are critical for efficient generation and application of power as well as maintaining stability and the ability to adapt instantaneously to any sudden change in an engagement.

Strength of grip imo relates directly to Aikido kansetsu waza, especially those that involve using Uke's arm like a sword e.g. Yonkyo (tekubi osae), sankyo (tenkai kotehineri) or sumi otoshi. The same extension of body power via the hands and arms as done with a sword is applicable to Aiki waza directly imho.

Dropping of body weight with the fall of the blade or cutting motion (as in Aikido) are again critical for proper delivery of power into the body/centre of Uke when doing kansetsu or atemi waza (e.g. shomen ate, aigamae ate/irimi nage etc.) in Aikido. Funny in my last class I had some kyu grade students working precisley on this aspect for a grading test, i.e. using the drop in body weight to generate the proper amount of power and direction for certain waza, especially for the smaller folks when working with the larger folks.

Proper blade alignment in Aikido to me means how one utilises te sabaki such as correct application of tegatana (handblade), waki shimete (closing of the armpit) etc. when executing atemi or waza. These aspects are critical to connect the hands with the core structure of the body for proper power distribution from the ground/centre into the hands for effective and efficient technique imho.

Just some more thoughts.
Gambatte.
:bow: