The Future of things to come

[Lawrence]

Greetings,

The transmition of the koryu bujutsu to the West (and to the East in many situations) has left us all with a 100 pieces short of a 1000 piece jigsaw.

I mean, the methods such as judo and aikido have gained a world wide popularity and recognition. Now, grantted, the koryu do not transmit well from one to a large group, but now they have begun to surface...

We are seeing several who claim to teach koryu, but they don't. But of the few who actually do, what does the future hold for them?

The world has developed a perseption of the Japanese Martial Arts (which on the whole is inaccurate) so now the koryu are seeping out from the wood work, how can these perceptions be desolved?

What do you think the future holds for the koryu bujutsu ryuha?

Take care

Lawrence.

[David Craik]

I have wondered too. I hope that in the hands of a few capable and knowledgeable instructors that the koryu bujutsu can flourish in the West. However, as you said, the koryu weren't designed for the masses, so I don't know if we will see widespread koryu..but perhaps this is for the best.

I note that MJER is being taught in a kind of gendai budo manner..and seems to be doing very well, but I'm not sure if this way would or should be accepted by other ryu.

Guess only time will tell.

[Lawrence]

Hi there,

Personally I feel that one of the massive differences between shin budo and koryu bujutsu is the transmition. The koryu are not a collection of techniques, as you see in most modern martial arts classes. The kata consisted of many motions and postures, but these tend to be done in a way which alllows the participants time and chance to maintain the correct mental posture, the right spirit and move correctly in good posture throughout.

This would not suit many people because it does not give oyu the same sense of achievement, or at least, not imidiately.

To uderstand and pay homage to a koryu is to be part of a long stem of family, this is not something which the Western world is ready to embrace just yet.

Personally, I do not see any of the koryu leaving Japan. Sure, there will be this ryu and that popping up, but once they begin to teach, deviate from the intial idea or begin to play, it no longer remains koryu, but rather becomes something new. Something which then belogs to the one who changed it. So it would be a new school which is heavily based upon teachings from this or that ryu.

Just my thought on the matter...

:)

Take care

Lawrence.

[ScottUK]

I also practice MJER iai outside of Japan. Our group is lucky enough to be able to practice not only the iai elements of MJER, but also the tachi-uchi-no-kurai and the tsumi-ai-no-kurai kenjutsu forms.

It's a shame that very few sensei (both inside and outside of Japan) have been able to carry on the full MJER curriculum (kodachi, bo, yawara elements).

Ah well, can't have everything.... :)

Scott

[Lawrence]

Hi there.

Thanks for that Scott. It is true that their are several exponents of koryu around the Western world, but I do feel that it is a good thing that the Western representatives are only aloud to teach a very finite amount of the curriculum because this way the development of the ryuha can be monitored. It also gives the representative the opportunity to practice what they do, rather than compromise and train with a different art.

What consequences do you think that this type of limitted transmition will bring to the future of the martial arts in general or to the survival of the koryu as a whole?

Anyway, take care,

Lawrence Fisher.

[RA Miller]

Lawrence-
The transmissions that I am aware of our more personal. Yes, we learn the kata and the techniques and variations but the transmission is subtly different. At one point my instructor decided that I understood the tradition and, above all, would not shame the name... so it was now my duty to teach.

I carry the giri of seventeen generations of Japanese Shihan and five more western instructors. An unbroken line of people who said "You understand and will not shame us."

Rory

[Lawrence]

Hi there,

Thanks for that Rory. This is what I was saying,
At one point my instructor decided that I understood the tradition and, above all, would not shame the name... so it was now my duty to teach. So you have been given the privilage to teach certain aspects from that school. This makes it more of a tresure as it is personal, a communication between yourself, instructor and school.

So it is now your duty to the school to presurve their teachings.

Thanks again.

Take care,

Lawrence Fisher

[Kennesten]

I feel hopeful, actually, since there are many dedicated bujutsu exponents out there. The threat of degradation will always be there, but a few things should help preserve sincere practice:

1) Strong ties and frequent communication/interaction with the honbu dojo in Japan. This also demonstrates understanding of the relationship between satellite dojo and the honbu dojo; activities that have already been going on, such as trips to Japan or hosting visiting sensei/soke, will strengthen the bond.

2) Careful selection of students. The small classroom size-argument is a good one, and the best way for the koryu is to stay small. Part of this isn't much a concern necessarily, because of the amount of dedication required. As long as standards are kept high (and are reinforced by interaction with the honbu dojo), students not really cut out for it will probably find another art.

3) Growing scholarship and discourse. Even over the time I've been alive, the perception of martial arts and the resources available on them have changed drastically. The standards and quality of discourse about koryu have improved, and should be an active agent in enforcing the quality of some aspects of the teaching.

Just some thoughts!

Nicholas Lauridsen

[johenora]

My Dear Mr. Lawrence--Glad to see you again. Best wishes.
Koryu stays with the scroll or scrolls of the Ryu. There is no deviation. At times a Henka will erupt but the core principles of the matrix remain the same.Without the Mokoruku and the Kokoro etc there is nothing--MU.
Without a thorough knowledge of Japanese to read the scrolls, the movementas,principles, garb etc of the Ryu,there in no koryu. In fact it becomes Gendai like Aikido, JuJutsu,Iaido etc.
The 18 subjects take a long time to master.And it is costly for the YOROI, SHINKEN,TESSEN etc.Koryu is expensive.
Very few outside of Japan can let alone afford it except in reading books and fantacizing. Few Gaijin can do genuine ,honto Koryu.
Protracted stays in Japan are necessary. Also the days of the Shogunate Tents are GONE---vanished.
Reality is reality.
Kindest personal regards,

[johenora]

Dear Nicholas Lauridson:
Your three main views and thoughts are well taken.
Koryu demands what you have alluded to and much more.
Few Gaijin can do Koryu--let alone envision it or afford it.
For the chosen few is Koryu.
Gendai is best for the mostest.
Respectfully yours,

[David Maynard]

Hello,

Posted by Lawrence Fisher:

"Personally, I do not see any of the koryu leaving Japan."
_____________

The above statement is incorrect both in fact and perception. Some Koryu have already left Japan and are being successfully taught beyond its shores. Others have very high level practitioners teaching outside Japan. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, Shindo Yoshin ryu, Yagyu Shinkage ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu, Mugai ryu, Buko ryu, Araki ryu and Shinto Muso ryu are just a few.


Posted by Lawrence Fisher:

"Sure, there will be this ryu and that popping up, but once they begin to teach, deviate from the intial idea or begin to play, it no longer remains koryu, but rather becomes something new."

______________

This statement is rather confounding. Is it your contention the none of the above mentioned schools are maintaining their core concepts outside Japan? I completely agree that if a Koryu deviates from its purpose or defining characteristics without a proper methodology to do so, that it is in danger of becoming something so separated from its origins that it is no longer true to it roots. However to claim than no Koryu can maintain its unique identity beyond Japan is just an incorrect supposition. One that can be proved wrong by the evidence at hand. As an example I will site just one facet of the tradition that I represent. In the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu all joden licensed instructors must learn to perform several Shinto ceremonies with accompanying norito, all spoken accurately in an archaic and complex dialect of Japanese. These ceremonies must be excruciatingly memorized in their entirety and understood within the cultural context of their creation. These ceremonies constitute an important part of our traditions okuden. Do you have any idea how many budo or Koryu practitioners studying inside Japan right now can perform such a ritual peroperly? Very few I'm here to tell you. Yet this level of knowledge and deep cultural understanding is presently available outside Japan if one is dedicated enough to find it.

Another contention you seem to make that I take umbridge with is the idea that any change within a koryu is necessarily degeneration. This opinion is a common fallacy proposed by those with no deep historical perspective on Koryu or beholden to a particular political mindset . The facts show that successful Koryu constantly changed and evolved so they could meet the challenges met on the field of battle. Only after the warring era ended did many koryu cease to evolve in a way that was true to their roots. Those that stagnated or evolved poorly degenerated into either souless kata-fied dance or quasi-modern budo with just a koryu name. Other Koryu have carefully evolved in a way that is true to their roots. These koryu remain vibrant reflections of the core concepts they were founded on. They are living traditions as opposed to historical skeletons.

No transmission of Koryu can be 100% complete. It is impossible. Therefore something of value must be added in each generation or eventually the art will wither and die. But change for change sake is rife with risk. Change must be judiciously pursued only by someone intimately qualified for such a task. Deliberate technical innovation and evolution sensitive to a traditions soul is the only way koryu can survive into the future as a valuable commodity worthy of preservation.

I suggest you read the interview I did with my teacher, Yukio Takamura that now appears on the Aikido Journal Website. It covers this topic as well as any ever written.

www.aikidojournal.com

Dave Maynard / Menkyo Kaiden
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu

[Toby Threadgill]

Hey Dave,

Nice to see your post here.......and ditto.

[David Maynard]

Hi there Toby,

Hope all is well in Colorado. Send me a PM. I have some questions about your upcoming seminars in Sweden & Poland. I have also heard a rumour about something up in Blackpool in the fall.

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

The future of koryu is not a certain thing. There are some ryuha that only have a small handful of members and there are also ryuha with hundreds of members (Just look at Daito ryu, Muso Shinden ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu and Shinto Muso ryu for an example of this.)

For some koryu ryuha, survival depends on the dedication and tenacity of their students. Without dedication in training and study, the student doesn't fully assimilate the entire experience of training in a koryu. He doesn't internalize the mindset and individual characteristics of the ryuha, nor does he internalize the body mechanics of the techniques contained in the kata.

Some ryuha already have shibu (Branch) dojo and some are doing very well and some are not. It all depends on the location and what the interests of the surrounding people are like. Bearing that in mind, the shibucho (Branch Head Instructor) has to make sure that he doesn't take in too many people at one go, otherwise the students' learning curve is affected. The assimilation of most Koryu ryuha works better in small groups. Again, the quality over quantity argument pops up.

The future of koryu lies in the teachers and how they disseminate the information contained in the ryuha. Quite a few koryu have made it quite well abroad, Yagyu Shinkage ryu, Shinto Muso ryu, Kashima Shin ryu, Araki ryu, Tenjin Shinyo ryu, Toda Ha Buko ryu and Tatsumi ryu but to name a few have opened shibu dojo in foreign countries.

There are a few koryu in Japan that have gone past their sell-by-date and have lost almost all of their combative meanings and some people's opinons are that they "deserve" to go extinct. I guess it's only natural. Even the dinosaurs went when it was their time.

Regards,

[Mekugi]

Truly, one who is into Koryu is a rare bird in the martial art world. There are many facets to the training and studying of the koryu, which can be overwhelming to the person just wanting some nice exercise.

In a lot of cases, take Shinto Muso Ryu Jo for instance, the individual in a foreign country generally learns at a slower rate than they would sitting with the head teacher in Japan. Couple this with the fact that ranking is not a "gratification" oriented thing in Koryu (well, it is, just not as quick) and you have a really hard-to-market product in the business world of the McDojo.

-Russ


The future of koryu is not a certain thing. There are some ryuha that only have a small handful of members and there are also ryuha with hundreds of members (Just look at Daito ryu, Muso Shinden ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu and Shinto Muso ryu for an example of this.)

For some koryu ryuha, survival depends on the dedication and tenacity of their students. Without dedication in training and study, the student doesn't fully assimilate the entire experience of training in a koryu. He doesn't internalize the mindset and individual characteristics of the ryuha, nor does he internalize the body mechanics of the techniques contained in the kata.

Some ryuha already have shibu (Branch) dojo and some are doing very well and some are not. It all depends on the location and what the interests of the surrounding people are like. Bearing that in mind, the shibucho (Branch Head Instructor) has to make sure that he doesn't take in too many people at one go, otherwise the students' learning curve is affected. The assimilation of most Koryu ryuha works better in small groups. Again, the quality over quantity argument pops up.

The future of koryu lies in the teachers and how they disseminate the information contained in the ryuha. Quite a few koryu have made it quite well abroad, Yagyu Shinkage ryu, Shinto Muso ryu, Kashima Shin ryu, Araki ryu, Tenjin Shinyo ryu, Toda Ha Buko ryu and Tatsumi ryu but to name a few have opened shibu dojo in foreign countries.

There are a few koryu in Japan that have gone past their sell-by-date and have lost almost all of their combative meanings and some people's opinons are that they "deserve" to go extinct. I guess it's only natural. Even the dinosaurs went when it was their time.

Regards,

[carl mcclafferty]

Folks:
Don't know how much I can add to the discussion. In Sekiguchi Ryu batto Jutsu US Renmei we use the "KISS" method. Yamada Sensei has a lists of "musts" and we follow them. We're not a huge Renmei, but we work hard to the keep the techniques, kata and traditions in line with Sensei. We seem to grow by several students across the US every year. I suspect that if we weren't a non-profit Renmei, we could train someone who runs a McDojo, we would grow very fast and make a pile of money. But that would hurt to much when I shaved in the morning.

We have a rule that everyone must have a full time job, be retired, or have an income outside the dojo. We tried twice over the last 10 years to allow some smooth talker learn the arts, unfortunately I asked them both to find their sword education elsewhere and they immediately went to "swordmaster status" once they got the old heave/ho. One with only five lessons started teaching basic, intermidate and advance sword. He also put several unauthorized pictures on his website that we had to "encourage" him to remove.

So with experience we've learned the slower we go, the better the art transmission goes. Not to mention my blood pressure seems to stay at a more stable level.
Carl McClafferty

[JSimmons]

Aloha,

Koryu arts are going to survive as they always have. That is, in small groups of devoted students and responsible teachers. Each koryu has a distinct "flavor" that the student has to learn to "taste." A student of Araki-ryu is going to not only move differently and execute different techniques from someone who trains in Takeuchi-ryu, but will approach individual situations differently. They will adopt a particular outlook on all situations that that specific koryu retains.

This also relates to change within a koryu. As we all know, only someone with menkyo kaiden has the authority to fine-tune kata. This fine-tuning may slowly change over the years to create kata that might be completely new to the curriculum. However, these new or finely-tuned kata will still have the "flavor" of the ryu in them. The person doing the kata will still move like a person who has practiced X-ryu for however many years. You're not going to see a koryu art suddenly incorporating flying-spinning-back-kicks into their teachings just because someone with the authority to do so has given the go-ahead. That would never happen, because it is completely outside the "flavor" of the ryu. The person with menkyo kaiden would never consider it. However, I would not doubt that many koryu have been influenced by other arts that had something to offer that complemented the "flavor." Can you tell I enjoy good food?

In regards to the types of students that will come to learn, well...it is a bit interesting to say the least. Every now and then here in Honolulu we get a couple of new people dropping their heads in to see what all the commotion is about. My teacher gets a few emails from people saying they've always wanted to learn this style or that style and how they're all ready to go. A lot of the time they show up, watch one practice and never come back. Why? I think its because we don't look like the last episode of Dragon Ball-Z they watched before they showed up. Also, I think a lot of people out there think that because koryu is older its going to be more martial in nature. But that's not really true. As everyone has noted, koryu is taught in a different manner. The guys who show up expecting someone barking at the class to do 50 knuckle push-ups and then stand in formation to practice kihon are disappointed when they see us acting relatively nonchalant in comparison with your average JKF dojo. It must drive them nuts when one of us asks a question that turns into an hour of just sitting around talking about the history of the ryu or something similar.

Well, that's just my take on the discussion here.

Aloha,
Joel

[Wadoka]

Hello,

Posted by Lawrence Fisher:

"Personally, I do not see any of the koryu leaving Japan."
_____________

The above statement is incorrect both in fact and perception. Some Koryu have already left Japan and are being successfully taught beyond its shores. Others have very high level practitioners teaching outside Japan. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, Shindo Yoshin ryu, Yagyu Shinkage ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu, Mugai ryu, Buko ryu, Araki ryu and Shinto Muso ryu are just a few.


Posted by Lawrence Fisher:

"Sure, there will be this ryu and that popping up, but once they begin to teach, deviate from the intial idea or begin to play, it no longer remains koryu, but rather becomes something new."

______________

This statement is rather confounding. Is it your contention the none of the above mentioned schools are maintaining their core concepts outside Japan? I completely agree that if a Koryu deviates from its purpose or defining characteristics without a proper methodology to do so, that it is in danger of becoming something so separated from its origins that it is no longer true to it roots. However to claim than no Koryu can maintain its unique identity beyond Japan is just an incorrect supposition. One that can be proved wrong by the evidence at hand. As an example I will site just one facet of the tradition that I represent. In the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu all joden licensed instructors must learn to perform several Shinto ceremonies with accompanying norito, all spoken accurately in an archaic and complex dialect of Japanese. These ceremonies must be excruciatingly memorized in their entirety and understood within the cultural context of their creation. These ceremonies constitute an important part of our traditions okuden. Do you have any idea how many budo or Koryu practitioners studying inside Japan right now can perform such a ritual peroperly? Very few I'm here to tell you. Yet this level of knowledge and deep cultural understanding is presently available outside Japan if one is dedicated enough to find it.

Another contention you seem to make that I take umbridge with is the idea that any change within a koryu is necessarily degeneration. This opinion is a common fallacy proposed by those with no deep historical perspective on Koryu or beholden to a particular political mindset . The facts show that successful Koryu constantly changed and evolved so they could meet the challenges met on the field of battle. Only after the warring era ended did many koryu cease to evolve in a way that was true to their roots. Those that stagnated or evolved poorly degenerated into either souless kata-fied dance or quasi-modern budo with just a koryu name. Other Koryu have carefully evolved in a way that is true to their roots. These koryu remain vibrant reflections of the core concepts they were founded on. They are living traditions as opposed to historical skeletons.

No transmission of Koryu can be 100% complete. It is impossible. Therefore something of value must be added in each generation or eventually the art will wither and die. But change for change sake is rife with risk. Change must be judiciously pursued only by someone intimately qualified for such a task. Deliberate technical innovation and evolution sensitive to a traditions soul is the only way koryu can survive into the future as a valuable commodity worthy of preservation.

I suggest you read the interview I did with my teacher, Yukio Takamura that now appears on the Aikido Journal Website. It covers this topic as well as any ever written.

www.aikidojournal.com

Dave Maynard / Menkyo Kaiden
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu

I am new to this board but read the article referred to above and agree with the post too. It is fantastic to know that there is Shindo Yoshin Ryu in the UK. As a Wado student (only a 1st Kyu so i admit my knowledge is very limited) the missing untalked about element of Wado - Shindo Yoshin Ryu- fascinates me as mostly it seems little taught these days. This leaves everything rather unbalanced.

[Genkinhito]

This is a reply to Shihan Mcclafferty about the "smooth talker" that he mentioned about teaching beginner, intermediate, and advanced sword. I believe I know who this instructor is because I have been a student of his for about a year, and some of my fellow students have posted on this forum and discovered his fraud. My name is Tyler Cashman and my email is genkinhito@yahoo.com. I would greatly appreciate hearing from you Shihan. Thank you.
-Tyler Cashman

[hyaku]

Well speaking on behalf of the Ryu I represent and practice like crazy partly so that I can hand it on: I would be a lot happier if there were as many people practiced it instead of just write and talk about it. There is the language barrier we have to overcome, work time, "money" etc. But I think we still well in the, 'Go out and get it stage'. "Is there a dojo in my area?" is not enough.

I locked the dojo door the other week after Soke and the designated Soke had gone home. They had around 120 kilometeres to travel. Two of us actually practiced. Then I traveled 120 the opposite way home. Frankly the interest here is pathetic.

Another compaint that I here from teachers now is that the Japanese government shows little or no interest in promoting Japanese culture.

[corsarius]

As a practitioner of Hontai Yoshin Ryu (albeit a relatively recent one) I would contend that statements like:

"Very few outside of Japan can let alone afford it except in reading books and fantacizing. Few Gaijin can do genuine ,honto Koryu."

..are totally misleading. Why should the difficulties be any greater for westerners than native japanese - the expenses and difficulties of training are the same - why should one be more difficult than the other.

As for schools in the west splitting away from traditional teachings and methods - well, if this happens then isn't that "new" teaching no longer a part of the lineage of a system. The only person who should be legally sanctioning modifications to a system is the current soke of that system. As a teacher of koryu bujutsu of a given style, shouldn't the instructor still be in close contact with the honbu dojo of the style, conducting exchange of students and instructors?

Just some thoughts.

[Tsuba]

.............................

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

As a practitioner of Hontai Yoshin Ryu (albeit a relatively recent one) I would contend that statements like:

"Very few outside of Japan can let alone afford it except in reading books and fantacizing. Few Gaijin can do genuine ,honto Koryu."

..are totally misleading. Why should the difficulties be any greater for westerners than native japanese - the expenses and difficulties of training are the same - why should one be more difficult than the other.

Well actually it is true unfortunatly! Unless you have a shibu dojo for a koryu nearby in your respective country, you're done for. Then there is the fact that as a foreigner who has trained in Japan in several koryu, you need Japanese language skills not only for learning, but also for social skills. Many a time is there a nomi-kai at the dojo and if you can't speak the language and socialize, you feel like a right drongo, not to mention rather lonely.

It's more difficult for foreigners because we aren't just training, we're learning the language, learning the culture, learning the laws and rules that our neighbours abide by (And sometimes ignore where we cannot) and we have to make an example in the dojo so that the next foreigner who comes in isn't just brushed off and told "Sorry, can't teach you".

I've just had to write a letter on behalf of a high ranking member of a koryu to a European country, telling a certain person to not come and visit Japan, simply because the instructor cannot speak English and has no member of the koryu present that can speak English.

The fact that there are some shibu dojo out there in the west loops back to the fact that some foreigners have indeed gone to Japan to learn, assimilate the language and culture and have been entrusted to carry on the tradition in their country of origin. Without them, you'd still be reading about them in Amdur, Dreager and Skoss books.

It is expensive in the fact that you have to leave your country, leave your job or if you are really lucky your company can transfer you over to their Japanese branch if they have one, you have to save up enough money to sustain yourself until you can obtain employment and visa sponsorship, and then you have to train for years in the koryu you choose and stick to it. So initially the poster quoted correct; Very few can afford it.

Next time you go to training, think about what you would be doing if the shibu-cho who brought Hontai Yoshin-ryu back with him had not come back to Australia and had just stayed ten more years in Japan.


As for schools in the west splitting away from traditional teachings and methods - well, if this happens then isn't that "new" teaching no longer a part of the lineage of a system. The only person who should be legally sanctioning modifications to a system is the current soke of that system. As a teacher of koryu bujutsu of a given style, shouldn't the instructor still be in close contact with the honbu dojo of the style, conducting exchange of students and instructors?

Ideally yes, you are correct, some ryuha operate that way and if instructors deviate from the teachings and the kata, then it isn't koryu. However not all koryu are like that. Unfortunately, you can't generalize with koryu. There are other ryuha that permit this conduct.

I had to cease living in Japan due to a family crisis earlier on last year. Instead, I have to make trips to Japan twice yearly to visit my sensei and sempai and consolidate on the things I have learned. It's the only way I feel comfortable learning without living in Japan. If I could, I'd be making it three trips a year.

(p.s. Thanks to Al Kilgore from the fake Shinkage-ryu dojo in Minnesota for digging this thread back up and for making me read the threads again :D
Chikara Dojo (http://www.chikaradojo.org/katana.php) Kendo world thread about the said dojo (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5433&highlight=chikara+dojo) )

[Tsuba]

To Mr. Delany Particularly.
My urge is to come down heavy on you. I happen to have alot of pride, thus it is much work to keep in check. I don't want to come off as a snob or as a sanctamoniouse *******. So, lets look at the facts. You are comfortable on the other side of the ocean. You know nothing really about me except what you hear from others and what you read. This is the first time that I have posted. I come openly. Our event has more than a few organizers. All of them are practioiners.
Getting back to the point. Here in America, most people judge others by what they really are like. It's not considered nice or proper to follow or propogate rumors. That's really my angst I guess with the whole online thing. It allows you to feel authoritative when you are not, it allows you to say things over the wire that you would never say in the presence of polite company. So, as such I will not take a cheap shot or call you names. I simply say that you have offended me. Here in America we are a mixture of many things. It is our strength. The comunity here that practices the variouse Japanese sword arts is rather passionate and that persuit will continue to happen. Things will grow and change.
~Al

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

I have, and am still able to meet battle with a ready mind. You ask some pretty rude questions...I am not sure you really want to know the answer to.

...let me recount perhaps one of the few WORST things about an area that I wish would go grey in my mind.


There were seven of them. All chained together. It was hot and the sun was screaming down so hard you could feel it hit you. Number seven in the line had been shot in the head. A small hole really and not nearly as much blood as one sees after a bullet to the limb or torso. I have always thought of that as the brain turning off fast enough to keep the heart from pumping everthing it can. More of a porky looking splash of **** sprayed out a ways. The other six, mr i am great, were chained together and they had been interrogated. A small blade had been used- the corner of a razorblade to be exact, to cut the skin all the way around the neck and up the back of the head. This was then pulled off. So you see mr i am great, the man, no, men who this had been done to did not die. Thier heads had merely been skinned from the neck up. Now I know you cant really imagine what the hell this actually looks like, and by now you are too deep into this post you can't actually stop reading...so I will continue so that you may contemplate this.
They no longer had eyelids. they coud talk but not all of the words could be understood because they did not have lips. it took longer for them to die than you could possiblly imagine. In fact the poor fellow at the end of the chain was the first to go after he spilled his guts so to speak. So in retrospect mr i am great. Carfull what the hell you try to say to some of us that have been around. Your little armchair philosophy attempt to get me to "think" about what it would take...I am afraid it has already been upstaged by event.
I have to apologise. You simply pissed me off enough to make me want to slap the hell out of you. I hardly ever mention anything like this.
...come to think of it...if I were you I would likly put a clamp on that rhetoric altogether...Britain has a few soldiers of its own coming home soon. They might not want to hear **** like that from you.
Be carefull. My experience is that the Brit soldiers are a tough lot.
They might eat your lunch.


Mr. Kilgore,

Did you or did you not write this on kendo-world for all to see?

No rumours, just past digressions.

If you lot had just been honest in the forefront and had claimed that it wasn't a koryu and a newly formed gendai, noone would have bitten.

[Tsuba]

Ahhh, I see, you like this. You are Enjoying this!
Well, good for you.
I have no witty comebacks. Only a welcome.
~Al

[cgsamurai]

Wow, just signed up, and I must say that this "fear of the unknown" is getting annoying.
Let these guys be already:)

So, would I be wrong in asking a mod to kindly get this thread back on track please?

Thanks much, and no, this has not hurt me newbee eyes to see confrontation in the least:) hehe..

Thanks!

[ScottUK]

Your first post is to 'get a thread back on track'? How odd... :rolleyes:

[pgsmith]

Mr. Smith,
This thread WAS on track a year ago when it died. Then the spammer made his mark. It is not "fear of the unknown" as you so quaintly call it. It is frustration with the liars and cheats. I'm sure they appreciate your support though. :)