Rear-slung Japanese swords

[Koshu]

Does anyone have historically verifiable information concerning how a Japanese sword (e.g. daito or nodachi) was worn strapped to the back of samurai (with or without armor)? Did this require special koshirae, or could it be done with standard-outfitted tachi or katana?

[Kwon Pup Maze]

I think the longer Odachi was carried on the back just as a place to secure it. It would have to be taken off to draw though.

Used to fight mounted troops or as a unit's guide on.

[Koshu]

I think the longer Odachi was carried on the back just as a place to secure it. It would have to be taken off to draw though.

Used to fight mounted troops or as a unit's guide on.

Thanks James. The material I've read largely supports your statements about the no-/odachi being carried on the back, but not directly drawn while slung.

I was specifically curious about whether or not the sageo were extra long and/or additional kurikata and sageo were attached to the saya of swords designated for carry in this manner; and regardless, how such swords would've been secured to the samurai/ninja/yamabushi/et al.

[David Craik]

I note that the Kageryu (the one founded by Yamamoto Hisaya Masakatsu and that use choken sometimes exceeding 3 shaku) have a long sageo, so perhaps it was simply informally slung over the back and tied off for transport if neccesary. Within the techniques of the ryu it is worn in an obi and drawn in the normal manner however. There do not appear to be additional kurikata on these swords, though there are sometimes a couple of steel bands far down on the saya.

This is the only extant koryu I know of that use these extra-long swords, so I probably can't be much help. I once had a copy of an Edo-period woodcut which depicted a samurai with a no-dachi on his back - he simply had the sageo over his left shoulder with the loose ends tied to his obi on the right side of the knot in the front. The end of the saya wasn't visible, perhaps he had it secured in some way or maybe it just swung all over the place. :D

[Kwon Pup Maze]

I remember seeing a sword carried on the back in the Metropolitan Museum in New York, they have a quite good selection of Edo era armour and swords. I believe the sword was actually secured by a 1/2 hitch at each shoulder and then a loop around the waist and knotted.

I'll have to take another trip up soon to check if I'm right though.

[Koshu]

Gentlemen --- Thanks for the additional input!


I note that the Kageryu (the one founded by Yamamoto Hisaya Masakatsu and that use choken sometimes exceeding 3 shaku) have a long sageo, so perhaps it was simply informally slung over the back and tied off for transport if neccesary. Within the techniques of the ryu it is worn in an obi and drawn in the normal manner however. There do not appear to be additional kurikata on these swords, though there are sometimes a couple of steel bands far down on the saya. . . .
David --- That is very interesting! Is the 3-shaku measurement from the habaki, or overall length of the sword plus mountings? If the former, I'd think that's quite a long sword to draw if worn as a katana (i.e. through the obi)! Do you know if Kageryu has an iaijutsu component, or is it a kenjutsu?


I remember seeing a sword carried on the back in the Metropolitan Museum in New York, they have a quite good selection of Edo era armour and swords. I believe the sword was actually secured by a 1/2 hitch at each shoulder and then a loop around the waist and knotted.

I'll have to take another trip up soon to check if I'm right though.
James --- I can't quite picture how the two half-hitches and waist loop would be accomplished with standard sageo, so yeah, it'd be neat to get a report back from you after you head out to Manhattan! Wouldn't surprise me, with all the formal trappings developed during the Edo era, if there was some Gordian-type super-intricate way of securing a rear-slung sword.

From what I've gathered from the Kyoto Costume Museum online information, Edo-period samurai often wore tassuke (sleeve-restraining cords). I could see how tassuke could aid in securing a sword or other implement to the back.

[David Craik]

David --- That is very interesting! Is the 3-shaku measurement from the habaki, or overall length of the sword plus mountings? If the former, I'd think that's quite a long sword to draw if worn as a katana (i.e. through the obi)! Do you know if Kageryu has an iaijutsu component, or is it a kenjutsu?

Mert, that's just the blade, and it is a battojutsu ryu.

There are no waza performed from seiza though, the techniques are performed from tatehiza or standing. There are also techniques from horseback, the sword was slung in the manner of a tachi while mounted or in armor.

I must point out that with regard to the subject of this thread, I don't know if these swords were ever carried across the back by exponents of this ryu, it was only brought up because of the long sageo, thinking perhaps other large swords had a similar length one. The only ōdachi I saw in Japan were unmounted blades with shirasaya.

From remarks by Colin Hyakutake, a member of this ryu, I gather that drawing such a large sword is not as difficult as it would seem, with proper training. He is a big guy though, and not everyone uses a sword as large as his.

Check out his pages on the Kageryu (and some of their humongous swords!) at:

http://www.hyoho.com/Nkage1.html

[Koshu]

Mert, that's just the blade, and it is a battojutsu ryu.

There are no waza performed from seiza though, the techniques are performed from tatehiza or standing. There are also techniques from horseback, the sword was slung in the manner of a tachi while mounted or in armor.

I must point out that with regard to the subject of this thread, I don't know if these swords were ever carried across the back by exponents of this ryu, it was only brought up because of the long sageo, thinking perhaps other large swords had a similar length one. The only ?dachi I saw in Japan were unmounted blades with shirasaya.

From remarks by Colin Hyakutake, a member of this ryu, I gather that drawing such a large sword is not as difficult as it would seem, with proper training. He is a big guy though, and not everyone uses a sword as large as his.

Check out his pages on the Kageryu (and some of their humongous swords!) at:

http://www.hyoho.com/Nkage1.html
Very impressive swords -- the kata must be quite something to observe, let alone perform (ditto for tameshigiri)! Even the subtle stuff must take on more magnitude -- the intensity of the zanshin as a meter-long sword returns to the saya during noto. Tasty!

Thanks for another excellent bookmark David!