2 big Tangsoo orgs

[beungood]

Why are there tow organizations Tang Soo Do and SooBahk Do. Are they one in the same? Are thier any modifications to the Organization that was headed by Dojunim Hwang ,Kee?

[kodanjaclay]

Actually,

There are more than two. The KTMS tends to be more traditional, ie the older material. The other orgs are the results of various policies inside the soo bahk hwe.

As this is a time of mourning for the MooDukKwan, I do not think it appropriate to continue this line at this time as it may end up being critical of our founder. AS you may know, we are in mourning for him as he died the 13th of this month.

[beungood]

<<As this is a time of mourning for the MooDukKwan, I do not think it appropriate to continue this line at this time as it may end up being critical of our founder. AS you may know, we are in mourning for him as he died the 13th of this month.>>

I wasn't trying to throw darts , I was just curious why there was tow organizations. Ive always thought that Tang Soo Do/Soo bahk do was set up for the prupose of developing a martial art and that they were against Taekwondo being in the Olympics. Ive always been intrested in Tang Soo Do.

JAck

[trypticon44]

There are plenty of TSD organizations out there, alot more than 2.

[kodanjaclay]

WG that is accurate. Also, please post your real name in accordance with Budoseek policy.

[RedTangSoo]

Yes it is quite true that there are many orgs who have splintered off the the original Moo Duk Kwan , the first to split would can be argued to be the KTMS, lets not start the old arguement, I only state fact, after them it was problably not till the late seventies that the ryu pa began again, after the big meeting in New York, then from that point others began to splinter off as they found their power fading and what they thought the direction of TSD should be according to them changing, so they left to form their own orgs, come to my site and see the org section , you will see the number of TSD orgs out there, TKD does not have the corner on splinter orgs : )
http://pages.cthome.net/redtsd

[MASTER DAVE ZACKER]

we respect to everyone here and not taking sides let me try to explain the difference in tang soo do organizations and the united states soo bahk do federation. the splintering off of the tang soo do organization run by hwang kee occured long before ktms. being an old warrior and being around at the beginning of tang soo dos introduction to the united states with my first instructor being dale t drulliard the first american to be awarded a black belt in tang soo do. awarded to him by hwang kee in 1958. my training began in the 1960s. with master drulliard brining tang soo do to his home state of michigan i was around to witness the changes early on. back then every one was under the direction of hwang kee. russ hankee who now is an officer of the united states soo bahk do federation, back then at the request of hwang kee sent for a master to help with the new art of tang soo do in the US. this master was sang kyu shim. it wasnt long until master shim broke away and formed in the detroit area his united tae kwon do. with this saw the arrival of another master who another one of my instructors the late master edward ormanion along with master dale t drulliard sent for, being grand master jae joon kim. it wasnt long until grand master jae joon kim dan # 38 left hwang kees organization to form his first organization the american moo duk kwan tang soo do association. which he ran in detroit until 1987 when he moved the headquarters to brandon fla changing the name to world moo duk kwan tang soo do federation. master drulliard formed his own group back i believe in the 1970s his first american moo duk kwan. this was only the beginning. many korean masters broke away to form organizations. many decieded to remain under the direction of hwang kee. hwang kee decided to change the name of his organization from tang soo do to soo bahk do to be seperate from the other tang soo do organizations. allowing the rest to use the name tang soo do. it may be looked upon as his way of saying continue to promote my art. possibly a final gift to us. allowing the rest of us the freedom to teach tang soo do. it deeply saddens me that we cant get along. im sure the kwan jang nim is looking down and shaking his head. now bernard i looked, even put my glasses on but didnt see my michigan tang soo do group listed on your site? i looked and searched in the history section but couldnt find myself listed there? 1968 master DAVE ZACKER BEGINS TRAINING IN TANG SOO DO. ha ha. thank god my history is on my site.:cry: im just kidding my friend i hope this information was helpful. if you find anything in error which you wont lol please feel free to correct me. SINCERLY DAVE ZACKER

[kodanjaclay]

Zacker Sabum,

There is one small detail. The KTMS is based in Korea. I think that Bernard may be right because if memory serves Hong Jong Soo was the one who founded TKD MDK. He also served as one of the early presidents of the KTMS. My guess would be, and this is pure conjecture, that when he saw the route that TKD was taking, he became disenchanted and returned to his roots. I believe that maybe by that time TSD MDK was then called SBD MDK in Korea, so he was able to use the name assuming he did not have permission.

This is pure conjecture and hypothesis, so I would not put stock in it, other than the fact that the KTMS is based in Korea.

[RedTangSoo]

Hello Master Clay, Master Zacker,

I will start off by answering Master Zacker, yes you did fill in a black about Sang Kyu Shim and J J Kim for me, and when viewing my History section with exception to the very early 50/60's I have kept it to those who have gone on to create organizations, I did add you to the "other great sites section" but if I was in error and your Michigan Tang Soo Do is an association or some such I will add you post haste and forth with, : ), but more info would have to be added you can e-mail me on my board about it.

Master Clay,
I feel that you and I are somewhat in agreement on the subject of the beginning of the KTMS, the only friction would be in the material that we both know has been hashed over before, that being the indiscrepancies in the KTMS website history section, I believe it was there that all the back biting took place, I will not begin it again, and will just say we have different views on that part of history. also since you spent time in Korea do you recall the World Tang Soo Do Union?

Bernard Geronimo Redfield

[kodanjaclay]

Mr. Redfield,

No I don't recall them off the top of my head. As far as the KTMS and their history goes, I would like to clarify this once and for all. I never authored any of the information that was presented, I merely maintained the website much as anyone else would do if hired to do the same job. Unlike some of the other organizations and people, the gentleman who wrote the history indicated his sources to me. They were all viable sources, and sources that in school we are taught to allow and cite, including periodicals. Unfortunately, one of the periodicals he used, from my understanding, does not screen for accuracy, but at the time it was written he did not know that fact.

I personally feel that it is a sad state of affairs when those who would hold themselves out to be masters and grandamsters resort to name calling, back biting and the like. As a student I was taught honor, discipline and respect. While I am not saying that I am perfect, I am saying that I do try to live by those guidelines, as should anyone who would hold themself out in a similar position. Unfortunately principles of TQM are lost in the martial arts industry, and this industry does in fact lend itself to "kooks" and control freaks. If we do not fix this ourselves, we will find ourselves in a regulated industry... its just a matter of time.

[SooBahkEric]

http://worldmoodukkwan.com/history.html

[Kyo Sa Michel Pope]

dear soo bahk eric,,


i have a question that maybe you can answer. i've been noticing that kjn h.c.hwang is on a vision tour.is going tyo try to bring all soo bahk do and tang soo do artists together under one umbrella.

[PooterMan]

two? I'm aware of at least 30 different TSD organizations.
(this list is also posted at http://www.tangsoodo.us


World Tang Soo Do Association (http://www.wtsda.com)
American Tang Soo Do Association (http://www.grandmasterbyrne.com/)
Allied Tang Soo Do Federation (http://www.atfmartialarts.com/)
AMERICAN MOO DUK KWAN ASSOCIATION (http://amdka.com/)
American Tang Soo Do (http://www.atsdkarate.com/)
Amkor Karate Institutes (http://www.amkorkarate.com/)
Asia Tang Soo Do Federation (http://www.chonskarate.com/)
Cheezic Tang Soo Do Federation (http://www.cheezictsd.com/)
Continental Tang Soo Do Federation (http://www.jkim.com/)
First American Moo Duk Kwan (http://www.ili.net/~frey/karate/)
International Goodwill Tang Soo Do Association (http://www.igtsda.com/)
International Tang Soo Do Federation (http://www.internationaltangsoodofederation.com/)
International Martial Arts Association (http://www.imahq.net/)
Korean Karate Academy (http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/sideline/6572/)
M.K. Kim Martial Arts (http://www.tangsoo.com/)
Moja Kwan Tang Soo Do (http://www.mojakwan.com)
Mu Sa Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do Federation (http://www.musawarrior.com/index2.php)
National Tang Soo Do Congress (http://www.lacombekarate.com/)
North American Tang Soo Do Association (http://www.westol.com/~target/nakf/)
North American Tang Soo Do Federation (http://www.martial-arts-network.com/tsd_home.htm)
Pan Am Tang Soo Do Federation (http://www.tangsookim.com/index.html)
San Kil Tang Soo Do (http://www.sktsd.com/)
American Tang Soo Do Karate Association (http://members.aol.com/tka034/)
Tang Soo Do Martial Arts Society (http://tsdmas.com/)
Tang Soo Do Masters Alliance (http://tsdmastersalliance.com/)
Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan Association (http://www.tsdmgk.com/)
Tang Soo Karate Academy (http://www.tangsookarate.com/)
Tangsoology (http://budget.net/~dnolan/tangsoology.htm)
United Tang Soo Do Federation (http://www.pakskarate.com/)
U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation (http://www.warrior-scholar.com/)
Western Pacific Tang Soo Do Association (http://westernpacifictsd.freeservers.com/)
Western Tang Soo Do Federation (http://jumpkicks.com/index.htm)
World Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do Federation (http://www.kimskarateacademy.com/)

These are just the ones I've found, I'm sure there are others.

[Kyo Sa Michel Pope]

And the Tradidtional tang soo do organization
www.thechiinstitute.net/temp

[ninjandrew]

Does anyone know anything of a Tang Soo Do school in Tokyo, or Japan even? Id like to try it out, but I cant find anything about it on the internet, and most people here dont even know what it is...

[kodanjaclay]

Yeah. Pretty much any Karate school as Tang Soo Do is the Korean transliteration. You might be able to find Soo Bahk Do. That is what I would do or even shorinji kempo.

[ninjandrew]

Your kidding. Tang Soo Do is just the Korean name for karate?

I thought it was a more practical version of TKD, with less fancy kicks and more holds and grappling. Im not thinking Hapkido am I?

[kodanjaclay]

If you REALLY want to get technical, Taekwondo is an off-shoot of Karate. Hapkido typically does not have forms but some schools do. It has every kick TKD does and a couple that they don't and focuses more on both Ki development and practical skills including with weaponry. Don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing TSD or TKD. They are both good arts. They just have different goals than does Hapkido. Any of them can teach you decent martial art and help protect your health.

[ninjandrew]

Okay, than Im definately thinking of something totally different. I read about a Korean MA such as what I described, in Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts which I have back in Canada. It was the only Korean MA (not to bash, I used to do TKD myself) that interested me. Any ideas? It wasnt common I know that, but its most certainly still around.

[kodanjaclay]

tukong musool? kuk sool won? hwa rang do? could be virtually anything.

[ninjandrew]

Kuk Sool Kwon! Im sure that was it!

Now, after I get a nice sleep, Ill look it up in the morning.

[Grei]

I found this article usefull for information on Tang Soo Do. http://www.tang-soo-do.org.uk/history.html

[kodanjaclay]

You would do well not to try and follow that history. Tang Soo Do does not have a 2,000 year history. It did not appear on the Korean peninsula until 1944, publicly, but may have been there since the Occupation.

[Grei]

Says you. I've found two other internet sources (though it is true they also point to Grand Master Hwang Kee's book...) that support it not being of Japanese origin.

[kodanjaclay]

Grei,

That is absolutely ludicrous. First off, I'm a Tang Soo Do Kodanja and have studied it longer than you have been breathing. Second off, the forms are Japanese. Third off, the pyung ahns were created by Itosu... and fourth...

Hwang Kee ADMITTED to learning the forms from books he picked up on Japanese Karate. Try volume one of his books.

Now if you don't want such a vehement response, try being a little more tactful.

[kodanjaclay]

Incidentally, the first Tang Soo Do school in Korea was the Chung Do Kwan and that was in 1944. That should start you on your research.

[Grei]

I'm just saying... if it was of japanese origin, why wouldn't more places admit it? It is possible to have japanese influence without origin. I'm not saying I'm near as knowledgeable on it as you seem to be, but I have read a lot of articles claiming older roots.

[kodanjaclay]

Grei,

When the occupation took place, the Japanese did just about everything they could to eradicate Korean culture. They usurped the Korean language, raped Korean women, forced Korean men into becoming conscripts and treated those conscripts only marginally better than they did POW's. War is a dirty ugly thing...more and more Koreans HAVE been coming out with the truth about various martial arts and some still claim a 2,000 year old lineage. The latter cannot be true based on what is known about world history.

There is a concept called kibun and it basically means "face". This alone would be the reason. Why do you think that the Japanese influence was removed from Taekwondo? In fact, if you look at the main hyung starting with The Ch'ang Hon you will find that Won Hyo is basically Pyung Ahn Ee Dan. This characteristic is carried over to the Pal Gwe where one of which (and I'm drawing a blank) contains the same sequence of forms. The Taegeuks completely remove this influence.

I understand wanting to learn the history as I think more people should. But you have to research and learn the right history. Ever notice that Tang Soo Do is the transliteration of Karate? Every notice that virtually all the Tang Soo Do hyung have either Japanese names or transliterations of them? There is a reason. For example, Naihanji is not a Korean word. The Korean term for these hyung is Chulki (Chulki Cho Dan not Naihanji Cho Dan).

[Pale Rider]

Master Clay,
Isn't the Korean word for the Naihanchis also called Nae Bu Jins?
I haven't heard of the other one sir
Naihanji is not a Korean word. The Korean term for these hyung is Chulki (Chulki Cho Dan not Naihanji Cho Dan).

Even tho I am no where the rank that Master Clay is, I know that he is speaking the truth.

If you look at the Hanji characters that make up Tang Soo Do 唐手道 it is the same exact characters that the Japanese used to use for Karate Do. They changed the first character to where it doesn't mean "T'ang" to a character that means "empty" - 空
In fact some of the Japanese stylists still use the character 唐

[kodanjaclay]

Bill,

The Nae Bu Jin thing has been propagated widely; however, in my travels across the country, I have never heard anyone call them anything but Chulki or Naihanji. T'ang is the character used before Funakoshi Sensei changed his art to Empty hand... not referring to weapons, but referring to the Zen concept of mushin.

[kodanjaclay]

Chris,

Lee, Won Kuk opened the first TSD school in Korea. This is commonly known. What isn't so commonly known is that Master Lee was a student of Funakoshi Sensei. The name Chung Do Kwan is representative of the power of crashing waves on the beach.

[Pale Rider]

Bill,

The Nae Bu Jin thing has been propagated widely; however, in my travels across the country, I have never heard anyone call them anything but Chulki or Naihanji. T'ang is the character used before Funakoshi Sensei changed his art to Empty hand... not referring to weapons, but referring to the Zen concept of mushin.

The character that refers to "empty" could also mean without? I always thought that it meant more then just referring to weapons.

Sort of like "an empty hand is like an empty mind, ready to hold on to the information that is presented"... would that be an accurate statement?

[kodanjaclay]

The story I heard was that Funakoshi intended it to mean Empty as in empty mind... a Zen concept.