Dokun

[Nadine]

Gassho.
My question is why do we recitate the Dokun in combination with chinkon gyo? Why do we recite the Seiku and Seigan before chinkon gyo and the Shinjo afterwards?

[Tripitaka of AA]

There have been some lengthy threads on E-Budo about this, but they were a long time ago and may have been deleted. They often dwelled on the minor differences in the translations and how difficult it is to change a ritual. As far as the order of what happens first, I think there are some wise and powerful people who have determined the way they want it done and we ought to do it to the best of our ability. Your question is not criticising, merely asking why things are done the way that they are... nothing wrong with that I suppose.

Anders has got all the answers and will probably be able to detail all those variations...

[Anders Pettersson]

Gassho.
My question is why do we recitate the Dokun in combination with chinkon gyo? Why do we recite the Seiku and Seigan before chinkon gyo and the Shinjo afterwards?

Hi Nadine.

The short answer to your question is that we do it in that order because Kaiso decided that it was a good order. ;)

To give you a little more I can add some other things concerning chinkon gyō [鎮魂行].
Chinkon gyō is not just the zazen [坐禅] part when we do chōsoku [調息], it is the whole thing, including the texts that we read.

In a dōin [道院] chinkon gyō consists of reading seiku [聖句], followed by seigan [誓願], then everyone sits down in hankafuza [半跏趺坐] (in more strict dōin female kenshi sit in seiza [正座]), when sitting one read raihashi [礼拝詞] followed by dōkun [道訓]. After this one close the eyes and do chōsoku. When the zazen is finished by the sound of the dabo [打棒] one stand up and end with reading the shinjō [信条].
The name for all these texts all together is kyōten [教典] (note this is the kyōten meaning "teaching", not the also common kyōten [経典] in Buddhism meaning scriptures.

In a shibu [支部] the procedure is basically the same but the raihaishi is omitted.
In the case of a shibu the texts are reffered to as dōkun (which in this case means seiku, seigan, dōkun and shinjō).

For some reason the dōkun part has been omitted in the English translation of the Shorinjikempo Tokuhon, it is a part of the original Japanese Shorinjikempo Tokuhon. There is however a translation of both the dōkun and raihaishi in the Kongo Zen Tokuhon.


I hope this give you some more knowledge. :)

/Anders

[sheb]

Your question is not criticising, merely asking why things are done the way that they are... nothing wrong with that I suppose.possibly it's because of my bad english knowledge, but it sounds that one have to be careful with questions of nadine. do you have this impression?



because of the lot of japanese words in anders post(s): are there any good websites which can translate and/or provide vocabulary lists (english<->japanese(not only in kanji))?

[Anders Pettersson]

because of the lot of japanese words in anders post(s): are there any good websites which can translate and/or provide vocabulary lists (english<->japanese(not only in kanji))?

I usually put kanji next to words that we use within Shorinjikempo, just to make it clear how it is written in Japanese as well, so in most cases it shouldn't be neccesary for kenshi to look them up since they probably know how we use the word.

But if you want to look up each kanji you can use this site: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html

Or you can download the Freeware JWPce that you can find here: http://www.physics.ucla.edu/~grosenth/jwpce.html

If you use Firefox as your webbrowser you can use an add-on called Rikaichan, that will look up kanji by just pointing at them in your browser.

/Anders

BTW Sven, have you lost all your Capital letters? ;)

[Nadine]

I hope this give you some more knowledge. :)

Yes, thank you.


(in more strict dōin female kenshi sit in seiza [正座]),


Why? :confused:

[Anders Pettersson]

(in more strict dōin female kenshi sit in seiza [正座]),

Why? :confused:
So that they don't sit with their knees apart.

/Anders

[Nadine]

So that they don't sit with their knees apart.

/Anders
OK, I understand.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Anders Sensei

It was cheeky of me to mention your name earlier in the thread and drag you in without a more polite invitation. I apologise :), but thank you very much for your entry. As ever, it was complete and informative... I trust it did not take too much of your valuable time. Thanks again.

[sheb]

BTW Sven, have you lost all your Capital letters? ;)i have ... :cry: :wink2:

i have to admit that it was in the beginning mainly a thing of being too lazy and now it's just a (bad) habit. should i better use capital letters in future?

thanks for the links. my interest isn't only because of shorinji kempo and its words ... it 's also general. i'm looking for a good internet source for japanese language, where it is also possible to translate words also without knowing kanji.

[Nadine]

Are there only Doin in Japan?

[Anders Pettersson]

Are there only Doin in Japan?
Unfortunately, yes.

/Anders

[Nadine]

Does one have to be a priest to lead a doin?
Which are the requirements?

[Anders Pettersson]

Does one have to be a priest to lead a doin?
Which are the requirements?

To become a dōin-chō [道院長] one has to have sōkai [僧階] rank, I am no sure right now but I think that the minimum is chūdōshi [中導師].
I also think that one need to be Daikenshi godan [大拳士 五段], but one could become dōin-chō before that under certain circumstances.

/Anders

[Nadine]

Hmm, I must google for some terms. ;)
(please don't feel under post-pressure! :D )

[Tripitaka of AA]

Are there only Doin in Japan?

Anders' reply assumes that the question was intended as "Are the only Doin in Japan?" (Alternatively "Are there any Doin outside Japan?")

It could have been read as "Are all the training groups in Japan actually Doin?". To which the answer would be "No". There are Doin and Dojo in Japan. There are no Doin outside Japan (even Indonesia, the largest organisation outside Japan, has no Doin as far as I know).

[Nadine]

.."Are there any Doin outside Japan?"...

Yes, that was meant. :)

[Anders Pettersson]

OK, I guess I answered Nadine's question the way she meant.

But to get some more details. About 2000 of the almost 3000 branches in Japan are dōin (or shibu dōjō [支部道場], but belong to Kongo Zen Sohonzan Shorinji [金剛禅総本山少林寺]).
All dōin are also shibu and also belong to the Shorinjikempo renmei. The others are just shibu, usually University and Highschool branches.

/Anders

[sheb]

what is the reason that outside of japan are no doins?

[Nadine]

what is the reason that outside of japan are no doins?
Maybe there is noone with the required sokai rank?

[Anders Pettersson]

Maybe there is noone with the required sokai rank?
That would be one reason, but as it is now it isn't possible even if you fullfill these requirements.

The only person I know in Europe that have high enough Sokai rank is Mizuno-sensei.
A few other people have sokai rank, but the ones I know only have the first (shodoshi).

/Anders

[Nadine]

That would be one reason, but as it is now it isn't possible even if you fullfill these requirements.

Why? Btw:How long do you have to train in a Doin for receiving the required sokai rank?

[sheb]

could you please explain the japanese words. i have some problems to understand ... or perhaps there are any internet soures.

[sheb]

am i right that there are three kinds of ranks: technical, philosophical and religious? what one have to do to get the philosophical and religious ranks? what are the requirements/dependencies to get philosophical/religious ranks?

[Anders Pettersson]

Why?
Short answer right now is "Because there are no dōin outside of Japan." ;)


Btw:How long do you have to train in a Doin for receiving the required sokai rank?
From my head, I might remember some details wrong and they could also have changed some rules since the info I have on this but anyway.
You actually don't have to be a member of a dōin, but you need to attend a dōin on a regular basis.
The first rank is just to apply and your teacher with sōkai rank need to sign the application. You also need to be minimum shōkenshi nidan.
After that there are time requirements and bukai/hōkai rank requirements as well as age requirements.

/Anders

[Anders Pettersson]

could you please explain the japanese words. i have some problems to understand ... or perhaps there are any internet soures.

Hi Sven.

If you specify what words you nee help with I can try and help out.

/Anders

[Anders Pettersson]

am i right that there are three kinds of ranks: technical, philosophical and religious? what one have to do to get the philosophical and religious ranks? what are the requirements/dependencies to get philosophical/religious ranks?
Yes you are basically right.
The bukai (martial or technical rank) and hōkai (philosophical rank) are explained in the Shorinjikempo Tokuhon. The requirements for these ranks are specified in your kamokuhyō. Hōkai ranks are given together with the bukai dan ranks, same time as the dan rank up to seikenshi yondan. After that yo get daikenshi after having had 5 dan for a certain period and written a report, etc.

As for sōkai rank I pretty much explained that in my reply to Nadine.

/Anders

[Nadine]

Short answer right now is "Because there are no dōin outside of Japan." ;)

I see! :rolleyes:

[sheb]

Hi Sven.

If you specify what words you nee help with I can try and help out.

/AndersSokai/bukai/hokai you already explained. How are the possible sokai and hokai ranks called? (bukai ranks are shodan, nidan, sandan, ... - right?)

[sheb]

Yesterday I have asked a japanese sandan (who left us for a while and is this week back for a visit) how much sokai ranks exists. He said that it should be 10. (But because of his limited german, I'm not sure whether he really understood what I asked.)

[Anders Pettersson]

Sokai/bukai/hokai you already explained. How are the possible sokai and hokai ranks called? (bukai ranks are shodan, nidan, sandan, ... - right?)

Sorry for not replying, been a little to busy, still busy but will give you a quick short answer, maybe have more time this weekend.

There are eleven sōkai ranks:

[少導師] Shōdōshi
[権中導師] Gonchūdōshi
[中導師] Chūdōshi
[権大導師] Gondaidōshi
[大導師] Daidōshi
[権少法師] Gonshōhōshi
[少法師] Shōhōshi
[権中法師] Gonchūhōshi
[中法師] Chūhōshi
[権大法師] Gondaihōshi
[大法師] Daihōshi


Bukai is the kyū and dan ranks.

Hōkai are explained in the Shorinjikempo Tokuhon, the first for are given, if one meets the requirements, together with the bukai. Shodan - junkenshi, nidan - shōkenshi, sandan - chūkenshi, yondan - seikenshi.
Then one need to have godan for some time before one can apply for daikenshi. There is a written test for daikenshi exam, no technical.
Then the other hōkai follow after each bukai.
After rokudan one can get junhanshi, after nanadan one can get seihanshi and after hachidan one can finally get daihanshi.

I hope this helps you. :)

/Anders

[sheb]

(please don't feel under post-pressure! :D ) ...

Thanks a lot! :bow: ;)

[Tuna]

For some reason the dōkun part has been omitted in the English translation of the Shorinjikempo Tokuhon, it is a part of the original Japanese Shorinjikempo Tokuhon. There is however a translation of both the dōkun and raihaishi in the Kongo Zen Tokuhon.the kongo zen tokuhon is also available in english? up to now i thought one can get it only in japanese.

[Anders Pettersson]

the kongo zen tokuhon is also available in english?
Yes.
Order from Hombu through your shibu-cho.

/Anders

[sheb]

Is the Kongo Zen Dokun more detailed regarding Kongo Zen than the Fukudoku-Hon?

[Nadine]

Is the Kongo Zen Dokun more detailed regarding Kongo Zen than the Fukudoku-Hon?
Do you mean the Kongo Zen Tokuhon?

[Anders Pettersson]

Is the Kongo Zen Dokun more detailed regarding Kongo Zen than the Fukudoku-Hon?
I guess you did a typo or confused some words with each others (Japanese isn't easy all the time).

In post #3 I wrote:


In a dōin [道院] chinkon gyō consists of reading seiku [聖句], followed by seigan [誓願], then everyone sits down in hankafuza [半跏趺坐] (in more strict dōin female kenshi sit in seiza [正座]), when sitting one read raihashi [礼拝詞] followed by dōkun [道訓]. After this one close the eyes and do chōsoku. When the zazen is finished by the sound of the dabo [打棒] one stand up and end with reading the shinjō [信条].
The name for all these texts all together is kyōten [教典] (note this is the kyōten meaning "teaching", not the also common kyōten [経典] in Buddhism meaning scriptures.

In a shibu [支部] the procedure is basically the same but the raihaishi is omitted.
In the case of a shibu the texts are reffered to as dōkun (which in this case means seiku, seigan, dōkun and shinjō).

For some reason the dōkun part has been omitted in the English translation of the Shorinjikempo Tokuhon, it is a part of the original Japanese Shorinjikempo Tokuhon. There is however a translation of both the dōkun and raihaishi in the Kongo Zen Tokuhon.

The above should clear out what Dōkun is.


But I suspect that you want to know more about the Tokuhon [読本] (textbook).
The old Fukudokuhon [副読本] (supplementary text book) was basically divided into two books, the Shorinjikempo Tokuhon [少林寺拳法読本] and the Kongo Zen Tokuhon [金剛禅読本].

The content of the two new books is basically the same as what was in the old Fukudokuhon, but things are explained better (in my opinion), there are a few details that are explained in the Kongo Zen Tokuhon that is not in the Fukudokuhon.

I hope this helps a little.

/Anders

[Nina]

Yes.
Order from Hombu through your shibu-cho.
Why can`t I find it on the WSKO homepage?

[Anders Pettersson]

Why can`t I find it on the WSKO homepage?
The English Kongo Zen Tokuhon is intended for non-japanese kenshi who is members of doin in Japan.
However it is possible to buy it for WSKO kenshi, but since it not aimed at us it is not published on the WSKO homepage.

/Anders

[sheb]

Yes, I meant Tokuhon, not Dokun - my hands didn't follow my thoughts ;).

So, it would be worth to buy also the Shorinjikempo Tokuhon and the Kongo Zen Tokuhon in addition to the Fukudokuhon.

[Anders Pettersson]

my hands didn't follow my thoughts ;).
I have had that happen to me as well. :)



So, it would be worth to buy also the Shorinjikempo Tokuhon and the Kongo Zen Tokuhon in addition to the Fukudokuhon.
Yes, the books are not expensive and well worth the money.

/Anders