Human Anatomy

[izzybig]

I was recently having a discussion with my friend and he was very much into martial arts as a young teenager but slowly fizzled away from it, but anyway during this discussion he said that the best possible thing that any martial artist can have in his arsnal is the knowledge of human anatomy, so basically i am searching for anyone's opinoin on this topic do you agree with my friend? or do you have your own personal secrets in your arsnal that would be better to learn than human anatomy.

[Bugeisha]

A good teacher, and a heavybag.

[Rasputin]

It is surprising how much anatomy one picks up along the way as you learn how to take a person apart.

[Koshu]

Brad --- Does a doctor who has years of detailed anatomy and physiology study under his/her belt inherently have better martial arts skills than someone who doesn't have that training? Maybe a better understanding of why this works or that works in martial arts. But this applied knowledge, as David suggests, will be learned in the course of diligent practice under the guidance and input of a good teacher.

You're the one training and your friend isn't, so what do you think?

[Musubi Dojo]

I think your friend should train more and talk less....:wink2:

[Brian Dugger]

. . .in your arsnal that would be better to learn than human anatomy.

Really any additional knowledge beit academic or otherwise, is good if you have the mind to apply. I'd say beginning with Archimedes' principle, kinematics, kineseology would be just the beginning to understand structure and function of anatomy in a gross sense, nevermind the physiology, molecular biology, Na+/K+ channels, Ca++ uptake sorts of things.:luck:

[izzybig]

A good teacher, and a heavybag.

Yeah that works too...:D

[izzybig]

Brad --- Does a doctor who has years of detailed anatomy and physiology study under his/her belt inherently have better martial arts skills than someone who doesn't have that training? Maybe a better understanding of why this works or that works in martial arts. But this applied knowledge, as David suggests, will be learned in the course of diligent practice under the guidance and input of a good teacher.

You're the one training and your friend isn't, so what do you think?

I completely agree with you, i guess through constant repetition of striking and practice of atemi is just as good as sticking your nose into an anatomy book.:bow:

[izzybig]

I think your friend should train more and talk less....:wink2:

I am starting to second that idea...:D

[izzybig]

Really any additional knowledge beit academic or otherwise, is good if you have the mind to apply. I'd say beginning with Archimedes' principle, kinematics, kineseology would be just the beginning to understand structure and function of anatomy in a gross sense, nevermind the physiology, molecular biology, Na+/K+ channels, Ca++ uptake sorts of things.:luck:

Hahaha...yeah thanks i guess i'll need it...:D

[Patrick Hayes]

he said that the best possible thing that any martial artist can have in his arsnal is the knowledge of human anatomy
I heard this a lot when I first starting doing jujutsu (although it was always from other students, not from the instructor). I believed it and signed up for a human anatomy class at the local college. I didn't really learn anything that pertained to martial arts. Everything I needed to know about human anatomy in relation to martial arts I learned by studying martial arts.

[FunSPE]

Any good boxing coach can teach you to hit the liver, solar plexus, floating ribs, kidneys and tip of the mandible to put somone in some pain and I doubt most have ever been in an anatomy class. People have known for centuries how to hurt another human being without medical training.

[Brian Dugger]

Any good boxing coach can teach you to hit the liver, solar plexus, floating ribs, kidneys and tip of the mandible to put somone in some pain and I doubt most have ever been in an anatomy class. People have known for centuries how to hurt another human being without medical training.

This is true! As I said before, any additional knowledge beit academic or otherwise is good, if you have the mind to apply.:hot:

The class subject suggestions were for those considering these particular protracted pursuits(meant as a joke).:eek::up: Although, I did have to take them for other reasons.:ticks:

[BlueDragon]

or do you have your own personal secrets in your arsnal that would be better to learn than human anatomy.

Basic physics

[Brian Dugger]

Basic physics
Heh! Wonder why I thought that is what kinematics was?:rolleyes:

[drivica]

As a medical doctor and budo instructor I have some benefits from my knowledge on anatomy, but only to make more understandable explanations about certain techniques and - this is very important - to AVOID HURTING OPPONENT MORE THAN NECESSARY. I was invited more than once to be a prison guard's instructor, not because of my rank or something like that, but because these professionals must not apply too hard techniques. They had too often instructors who would teach them potentially letal techniques and who paid no attention on consequences (which are - losing your job if you apply too strong lock on the prisoner and break his arm, or strike him to the throat and smash his larynx....)

Still - it is not just about knowing anatomy, it is also about using common medical knowledge to demistify certain budo myths. Like - the one about kiling the opponent with a single strike which pushes the nasal septum into his brains. (???) Or also myths that someone can actually make stronger bones on his hands by striking into hard surfaces for years. Or knowing about some basics of physiology, which make you a competent coach, who will not kill a child with undiagnosed cardial arrhytmia by making him doing too hard drills and insisting on uncontrolled physical effort...

I agree anatomy and medicine are not necessary important - unless you are in a regular state coaching school, where anatomy and physiology are always part of the curriculum.

[Brian Dugger]

As a medical doctor and budo instructor I have some benefits from my knowledge on anatomy, but only to make more understandable explanations about certain techniques and - this is very important - to AVOID HURTING OPPONENT MORE THAN NECESSARY. I was invited more than once to be a prison guard's instructor, not because of my rank or something like that, but because these professionals must not apply too hard techniques. They had too often instructors who would teach them potentially letal techniques and who paid no attention on consequences (which are - losing your job if you apply too strong lock on the prisoner and break his arm, or strike him to the throat and smash his larynx....)

Still - it is not just about knowing anatomy, it is also about using common medical knowledge to demistify certain budo myths. Like - the one about kiling the opponent with a single strike which pushes the nasal septum into his brains. (???) Or also myths that someone can actually make stronger bones on his hands by striking into hard surfaces for years. Or knowing about some basics of physiology, which make you a competent coach, who will not kill a child with undiagnosed cardial arrhytmia by making him doing too hard drills and insisting on uncontrolled physical effort...

I agree anatomy and medicine are not necessary important - unless you are in a regular state coaching school, where anatomy and physiology are always part of the curriculum.

Whew, Doc! Now, don't get too serious and disclose everything. These guys need a little time to find it on their own, otherwise how are they going to be able to pass on any well-formed recommendations for the next group to come along. You know, as well as I, time will tell the truth.

[Da-RiSiN-sMoKe]

I think your friend should train more and talk less....:wink2:

I agree!
Like that Elvis song: "Little Less COnversation and a lot more action!"

I probably just have to know where to hit, but know if it would hurt!
Example is I never knew where the xyphoid was until I started Karate.

Well common sense wise is to inflict as much pain as possible on the street, and learn control.

Your friend should actually experience MA more.

[stuart stratford]

you have to know the human body to know your enemy

[Bugeisha]

But how detailed an understanding do you need, for the most part? We've been simplifying our "target areas" at my school for the last bit. Like, as far as the neck goes, you've got a whole bunch of arteries and veins, nerves, windpipe, etcetera...but is there really a part of the neck that's NOT vulnerable? How specific do you have to get?

You can probably learn everything you really NEED to know to hurt someone in a pretty short time.

[Brian Dugger]

But how detailed an understanding do you need, for the most part? We've been simplifying our "target areas" at my school for the last bit. Like, as far as the neck goes, you've got a whole bunch of arteries and veins, nerves, windpipe, etcetera...but is there really a part of the neck that's NOT vulnerable? How specific do you have to get?

You can probably learn everything you really NEED to know to hurt someone in a pretty short time.

I believe it was Sokaku Takeda that said, "Aiki is the ability to kill a opponent with a single glance". Given Sun Tzu's statement on "Know yourself, know the enemy", Ask youself again
But how detailed an understanding do you need, for the most part? and consider how well or efficiently you wish to pursue an endeavor or complete a job with thoroughness. More importantly, if utter destruction is the objective, consider the question of 'how quickly or easy can it be repaired, recovered or fixed'?

[Bugeisha]

How in depth of a knowledge of human anatomy do you need to know the body's weak points? At what point does the extra knowledge become superfluous?

I would rather spend my time practicing simple skills than gathering esoteric knowledge ;)

IMO, "knowing your enemy" is mostly about being able to read and gague intent and respond appropriately.

Obviously we need to know basic anatomy, but I think the point where you know enough to get the job done, and done well, comes pretty soon. At least, if we're talking about actual fighting ability. Where knowing about the body becomes more useful is in building it up (through a fitness training program) or putting it back together (after injury). I don't think you need a terribly in-depth amount of anatomical knowledge to hurt someone.


Edit: also, I don't see what the Takeda quote has to do with anatomy. Enlighten me?

[Brian Dugger]

. . . Edit: also, I don't see what the Takeda quote has to do with anatomy. Enlighten me?

It is much the same as Sun Tzu's. Both men examined things very thoroughly before committing themselves to an endeavor, in this case war and all its entrappings. For the interpretion of Takeda's profound statement for me,. . . I concluded that once he set eyes on a/certain circumstance(s) or a/certain person(s), he knew from beginning to end the outcome. It could have been the way a person positioned themselves given the surroundings and terrain. The posture or the walk of the individual given the conditions, etc . . . Takeda and Sun Tzu alike would study, calculate, study . . . given the situation and conditions at that moment what would they do themselves and when would it be appropriate to act or do otherwise.

For example (nothing intended, just a readily available example), at the point you believe extra knowledge becomes superfluous and I know this as well as you. I might begin searching for ways to exploit that to my advantage. The same way I might exploit a weak side vs. strong side, eyesight, bad knee, crik in the neck, hair in the eyes, poor timing in breathing, protective of wrist circumstance or possibility. Reciprocally speaking, if I believe you to be overconfident and know it is only from such a "strong" position that you act, I may disseminate disinformation and allow you to believe what you will when the reality is otherwise.

[Bugeisha]

I'm all for exploiting an opponent's weaknesses. My argument is with people that think that some secret or special knowledge is more important than just training. I think some people spend too much time analyzing, and not enough time just practicing.

I suspect you and I agree more than not, Brian. I just think that some people try to use book-learnin' to argue that they don't need hard physical training. :)

[izzybig]

I believe it was Sokaku Takeda that said, "Aiki is the ability to kill a opponent with a single glance". Given Sun Tzu's statement on "Know yourself, know the enemy", Ask youself again and consider how well or efficiently you wish to pursue an endeavor or complete a job with thoroughness. More importantly, if utter destruction is the objective, consider the question of 'how quickly or easy can it be repaired, recovered or fixed'?


I completely agree with this, as the old saying goes "to hurt someone is easy, to heal them is hard".:bow:

[Brian Dugger]

. . . I just think that some people try to use book-learnin' to argue that they don't need hard physical training. :)

Yeah, my dad called these people "Monday morning quarterbacks".:rolleyes:

[TonyU]

I'm all for exploiting an opponent's weaknesses. My argument is with people that think that some secret or special knowledge is more important than just training. I think some people spend too much time analyzing, and not enough time just practicing.

I suspect you and I agree more than not, Brian. I just think that some people try to use book-learnin' to argue that they don't need hard physical training. :)
Well stated Dillon.

[DragonMind]

I think the most compelling reason to study peripheral subjects surrounding martial arts is to be able to separate reality from the myths/fakes/BS that gets propagated by Hollywood, video games, and unscrupulous charlatans. You don't need to become an expert in anatomy, physiology, kinematics, structural mechanics, or Asian history; just get enough grounding to know when something sounds fishy and how to find the real answers.

[Bugeisha]

That's spot on, Barry. It's worth studying enough to make sure you can tell fiction from reality. It's also worth investigating to make sure you're not doing anything blatanly harmful. For example, if you know the knee is a hinge joint, it's immediately obvious that having the knees pointing or bending in a different direction from the toes is anatomically incorrect.

When we're talking about studying past that sort of information, it makes me think of Cliff's post about fundamentals recently. An in depth knowledge of anatomy can be a neat set of bells and whistles, but it won't make up for any foundational weaknesses.

[quan]

Just thought I'd add my two cents worth.

I'm a physiotherapist by profession (the Australian equivalent of a Physical
Therapist) so I have a pretty good knowledge of human anatomy, biomechanics etc.

I know that this sort of knowledge helps me to a lot when I train joint locks in BJJ type training etc.

I would agree with most of the posts so far on this topic in that nothing really replaces diligent training and having a great instructor.

Although, the added knowledge of anatomy is of benefit, I wouldn't go out of my way to learn it. The same time could be better spent physically training your martial art.

[Jay Bell]

I personally think anatomy is important. Is it necessary? Not at all. However, if you hit someone in Spot A and it hurts, having an idea why the hurt comes and how it affects the body overall gives a deeper understanding of what's happening.