View Full Version : "Death Techniques"
What is the purpose of teaching "death techniques?" I have observed several (demonstrations, not actual applications), and while most look flashy and impressive, they don't seem to have a practical chance of being applied, especially in comparison to other techniques.
I understand historically that many duels were fought to the death, and so something other than blunt force trauma had to be created. In today's world though, it's not practical to kill a guy, when it's easier to beat the tar out of him. Hopefully, someone can explain this to me. Thanks.
-Joe Gallegos
RA Miller
07-25-2002, 01:49
Joe-
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same things, since the lethal techniques I'm familiar with are anything but flashy.
They are taught, in our style, because of the history of the system. On a feudal battlefield, restraining an enemy would only get you a spear in the back from another enemy. Any damage less than crippling would leave an opponent capable of rejoining the battle, and possibly sticking a knife in your knee. So our style leans heavily on breaking necks of people in armor.
Some people retain (or invent) lethal techniques from this era to add mystique, to convince themselves of their own invincibility.
Practically, today, there is a subset of practical self-defence where I believe the techniques are applicable. But a vanishingly small number of instructors have any idea of real self defence, much less this area.
"In today's world though, it's not practical to kill a guy, when it's easier to beat the tar out of him. I'm not sure I would agree that in a fight it's easier to injure than it is to kill. Forgetting the legal headaches for a moment, it takes great skill to use only the minimum force against a person intent on hurting or killing you. Much easier to let it fly, take out a knee, twist the neck, finish it quick. Some techniques I know aren't flashy, but can be lethal. Hope I never I have to use them. But yes I do teach them to students when the time is proper, i.e. when I had three police officers in class, I taught deadly force techniques to them should the need arise. Do I teach such techniques to my kid students, with the exception of chokes NO!
Peace
Dennis
Thanks for the explanations. I knew the historical use of death techniques (duels and battlefield), but it was the modern application that confused me. It is my new assumption that there are more practical techniques than the ones I've seen.
And I have no intention of stating a debate on the use of deadly force, so I won't go there. Thanks for the input.
TenchuDude
10-10-2002, 10:44
I think it's just as practical to kill someone today as it was back then. Not everyone is going to run into this situation, but people still do. There does come a time when it's either them or you and for me, that's not a hard decision to make. I like my life and I enjoy it, legal issues aside, I am going home, not to the morgue. Now I'm not saying that we should go around and deliver throat chops and throat locks to everyone that upsets us, or even to the guy who tries to jump you when you're walking home from the bar. What I am saying is that if someone is trying separate your proverbial soul from the physical body by means of force, it's always good to be prepared and know what to do when the going gets rough.
Since breaking peoples neck came up I got curious, how hard is it to break someones neck?
Rikamarudude
10-12-2002, 19:12
I think that the basis for still teaching the "death techniques" is in the spirit of retaining the "art". Once you stop teaching a part of any given art then that part is lost and total understanding of the art is lost along with it. If you do not teach it simply because it is not acceptable today to kill some one then you are narrowing your perspective of why you are teaching/taking that art. Besides just because you learn it does not mean you will use it.
TenchuDude
10-14-2002, 10:34
Skye- in response to your question I asked my Master Chan, my sifu's sifu. His family has a long tradition of being bonesetters and the like. And he said if the techique is done right, it's not that hard at all.
Hey I had a master Chan once whose family had a short tradition of being bone setters..or doctors. Though how many master Chans are there?
I was just curious because I haven't really heard of the techniques being used before (thankfully). I think that Judo doesn't do neck cranks because of possible spinal injuries but I'm not sure. I read about a serial killer who said it was surprisingly easy to screw peoples heads off:(
Maybe this is too morbid a subject. Though the subject is Death Techniques.
My sifu teaches us many different techniques that could be deadly if applied with power or proper technique.He refuses to teach us Dim Mak though.He says we already know techniques that could kill if needed so why teach us Dim Mak?
The real reason he does'nt want to teach Dim Mak is he says with Dim Mak it's easy to kill someone even though you might not have wanted to kill them.He says he does'nt want one of us to take someone's life by accident.Since moving to the U.S. from Hong Kong in 1976 he has yet to teach Dim Mak to any of his students.
jmd161:)
I'm skeptical of dim mak so I'll try not to be offensive but it is easy to say that the reason he doesn't teach is because dim mak might not work.
But assuming it does...wouldn't knowing dim mak make it easier to know how not to accidentally use it?
Well yes and no.
I've been shown a few snake fist techniques by my sifu that i've kinda had to untrain myself from using.Because when you practice these moves alot you tend to use them from normal reflexes.So i can understand what my sifu means.One strike is to the eyes and i noticed everytime someone threw a strike at me i countered with this technique.I never followed thru luckly ,but i had to stop using that technique it came up to many times.
jmd161:)
P.S. There's alot of things i did'nt believe about kung fu ,but my sifu has made a believer out of me.
Rikamarudude
10-16-2002, 12:49
That is the difference and responsibility that goes along with knowing techniques and applying them in sparring. Having knowledge of a technique and training your self to respond with it in a situation are different. I know how to do a 540 spinning back hook kick, that doesn't mean I have trained my self to use it when in an applicable situation I instead train to use more effecient and applicable moves. The same goes with a "death technique" you may know how to snap someones neck but you should not train to use it as a reflex, that is one of those things that if the situation requires you would know to apply it, but not just go for it on you average sparring partner. It is also a matter of disipline. That is why such techniques should be only taught at a high rank and maturity. For example a 21+ 3rd Dan BB. Some one that will have the discipline and knowledge to not use the technique unless absolutly required. Such teaching should be selective, at the discretion of the teacher, but it should still be taught. Besides someone had to teach your Sifu/Master so why should he decide not to pass the knowledge to those he deems acceptable. :bow:
TenchuDude
10-21-2002, 13:27
I hear ya bit there are some moves that done to one part of the body would be painfull but relatively harmless yet done to a different part of the body, can be catastrophic to that person. Like the snake fork finger strike, done right above the collar bone its ouchie, but you're ok. Done to the eyes, its ouchie, I'm blind, I'm blind. Like army of darkness style. But I agree, you do have to know when and where a certain technique is applicable and appropriate.
Doni Pulley
11-24-2002, 13:08
A "death" technique could be pushing a guy into the path of an oncoming car.
One must be careful about leathal force both in its use and teaching it.
If you are attacked by someone intent on doing you in the quickest way to be safe is to kill them.
There are still wars on the planet and there is still "Evil" out there. So long as they exist people will from time to time need to kill.
Aaron Fields
11-25-2002, 18:40
I think the real question is one with regards to the above mentioned, amount of force. What we are really talking about is trauma tp the body....I have seen some "non-lethal" methods have some lethal effects.
Kimpatsu
01-25-2003, 11:33
Demonstrations of "death techniques" are bull****. A blow can certainly kill, but application is important.
These people are just showing off. After all, entertainment sells...
"i hate to say it but most of the time this is true"
Doni Pulley
01-27-2003, 21:20
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Demonstrations of "death techniques" are bull****. A blow can certainly kill, but application is important.
These people are just showing off. After all, entertainment sells...
While it is true that most of what is presented as kyusho or tuite is just a bunch of junk-- there are real skills to be learned.
They are however not for everyone.
One also should note that dropping someone on their head could have lethal consequences. It ain't pretty but it works.
I don't think there are many people who set out to "learn how to kill". who stick with reputable martial arts very long.
The motivation is all wrong.
If you want to learn to kill you only need to get a gun.
Jeannette
02-06-2003, 00:07
Hey, how's it going. I'm new here. Hope this simple view is helpful to anyone....One thought is that it is very important to learn how to kill in order to defend yourself from an attacker. How can you truely understand and be AWARE of predators if you can't apply it yourself??? I'm not saying to ONLY learn offense, but as PART of your defensive training.
We do live in a time and age where predators still exist. However, I believe that when some students attend seminars with some offense techniques, some of these students have some inner issues of their own and feel threatened by it. They misunderstand the point entirely. It's natural and human to feel this way, especially when your goal is to protect you and your loved ones. With a good teacher and an open attitude (on all the students) it is vital as a martial artist to learn offensive attacks. (but, not for everyone)
NO TECHNIQUE ,OFFENSE OR DEFENSE, SHOULD BE SHOWY. These showy teachers are only interested in making money and gain popularity. Also, it can
be dangerous to learn showy techniques...this could get you killed.
I hope this is a little more clear to someone floating out there.....
Doni Pulley
02-06-2003, 19:54
You hit it right on the head.
These "issues" you speak of are the reason that a responsible teacher must develop good relationships with students.
Not only can one not truly learn and understand the techniques in an 8 hour seminar but the teacher must know if a student might misuse the knowledge
My opinion is that it is easier to kill that to safely control an opponent but it is rare that one is truly justified to do so.
Additionally, people have shortsightedness.
Many people think it is "neat" or exciting to study "leathal" techniques but few are truly prepared to use them nor are they ready to deal with the psycological damage that killing another human being brings.
Nobody ever wins a fight.
If you must fight you have already been damaged.
Jeannette
02-07-2003, 13:42
Good points as usual! I agree with you ...mostly! (Looking at your sitting posture icon, I feel like I am also sitting in front of you sipping green tea!)
ha, ha, ha! Many of these type of people that come in thinking that they will be a bad ass or learn how to make weapons... they make me laugh! They are quickly escorted out and asked not to return. There are a lot of dangerous people out there. These are the people that are not aloud to train. They don't have to even speak, you can "feel" their energy. ( I think you know what I mean )
Many people have a misunderstanding with these kind of arts. And, it's really not for everyone. Some, just don't understand. It's ok! We're not looking for more people to train in this art. As with any art, you must be selective of your teachers and more importantly the students. (as you pointed out) We call it "weeding out the bad".
yes! "applying the techniques" are the most important in either offense or defense. It should all flow. It's not easy. As with any art, this comes with effective, DEDICATED training. (years!)
Do you really think it's easy to kill with a gun? Guns are often misunderstood. I also train with a gun, I don't always think it's easy to hit a fast moving target. There's a lot to know about guns and applying techniques with them. I couldn't imagine someone who is untrained with a gun relying on it...for anything! I'd like to make this clear for the record, I do NOT walk around with weapons....I train with weapons to UNDERSTAND them and I feel it is an extention of myself to further my training. Again, I feel if one is untrained with weapons, this could get them killed. The distance and angles and space all change with weapons. A gun is just another weapon to understand. It's really a quite simple concept.
Doni Pulley
02-07-2003, 17:29
First of all thanks for the compliment Jenette.
We seem to be of like minds.
( I do know what you mean)
To answer your question:
Do I really think it is easy to kill with a gun?
If one finds it easy to kill by any method then they feel no remorse and they are therefore a psycopath.
No its never supposed to be easy to kill.
At the level of the training for the technique however it is much easier to learn to use a firearm correctly than it is to develop the skills to be leathal empty handed.
They do have one thing in common though.
They are both, (combat shooting and martial skillls) perishable.
If you don't train the skill will slowly abandon you.
Anyone can get lucky (or unlucky) but if I hand an untrained person a gun and say kill that target they have a good chance of accomplishing the task. If I direct that same person to kill the target empty handed they may find it a bit more difficult to pull off.
I also have some experience with "guns".
I am a veteran.
So take note......."Among the participants in a battle there are no winners. There are only survivors."
Jeannette
02-08-2003, 20:53
Right on!
following the ideals of bushido (the warriors way) death was taught to be pondered on twenty four seven. life was to revolve around the circumstance of death. it is more tradition to practice lethal techniques, but it is also applicable. supposing one were to join the military. lethal techniqeus would be useful. and a lot of times when a martial art is flashy, the flashiness is not intended to be carried over from practice to street. it is a way of understanding the movements, and the body. in aikido we have the unbendable arm. is it to be percieved that in any situation we find ourselves in that we will be able to apply it? aside from it's application it's also serves as a teacher, in and that creating and maintaining a distance will work for the techniques you have learned., or escape.
johenora
11-18-2003, 02:38
Originally posted by Skye
Since breaking peoples neck came up I got curious, how hard is it to break someones neck?
----------
Dear Skye Clements:
With the proper technique it is real easy to break a person's neck;provided,the person to be killed is in the correct position. The corrct blow or torque must be used.If the dens breaks it is almost certain death or paralysis.It can be done several ways. Certain stangles can kill.Any chiropractor or medical doctor can show you how to do it.
Medical Doctors and medical types with the training to save life can reverse the process and kill life.
This technique has been taught to many military persons ,OSS , CIA etc
It and other methods can be found in the Black Death Books.
One who has been trainid to kill and has the intent and motivation need not be psychopathic. sociopathic and sane people have committed homicides. I have read psychological reports of persons who were hedonists and enjoyed killing--such as serial killers.It does not take much to kill a person. Several martial art systems such as SCARS have methods that would in most case result in death.I have seen this system in action. It is super deadly.There are three ways. Correct me if I am wrong.One ,two or three of each CAUSES:
1. Bleeding to death,2.CNS stoppage3.Oxygen deprivation. If shock sets in fast the death is even faster. Cutting off a head with an Ax or Katana or Diamond wire garrote would be all three CAUSES,or getting hit with a Clayemore anti-personel mine. You have seen Texas Chain Saw massacre--gory. Covered by a snow avalanche,a sudden jolt of nuclear radiation , high voltage electricity or being incinerated,falling out of an airplane at a high altitude without a parachute and last drowning at sea. These have been the stuff movies have been made out of.
There are very simple ways to kill with one finger and the person attacked will not be brought to life again --no matter what.
This is enough for me. I will be having nigtmares tonight. I do not know how I got on this thread. But it certainly has brought out posts with interesting responses.
I hope I can sleep well tonight without nightmares.See the recent and gory movie- -"Kill Bill".Lots of homicides.
Cheers,
ninjandrew
11-21-2003, 11:32
Depends on the techniques your talking about. Im familiar with the more common and (IMO) effective ones. Chop/punch to throat, breaking neck, suffocation, crushing ribcage, breaking back. That is unarmed of course. But if a so-called "death technique" seems bunk, I woud suggest one should simply disregard it. Like Bruce says, "Keep what is useful, forget what is not, add what is uniquely your own." But it isn't easier to beat the crap out of someone, thats the point of killing them. BAM! Knife hand to the adams apple and no more worries. One can often clobber another for a while before they are totally incapacitated, and than your covered in blood, tired, maybe injured, or maybe your dead because he killed you first. Of course you usually want to wear the enemy out a bit before you try to do something as precise as a "death" attack.
Or stop hit :D.
johenora
11-21-2003, 12:05
Mr. Andrew Hutton:
Your points relative to this thread are well taken. It is precisely as you say.That chop to the throat's vital spot most certainly will get the basic result as you posited. Quick,swift and sudden . No return to planet earth.
Your response brings to mind what Lt. Col. W.E. Fairbairn,British Royal Marines with OSS at "the Farm" and 1st British Commando Unit. As you know OSS was a precursor to CIA. He said and wrote:
....You're interested only in disabling or killing your enemy. That's what I call Gutterfighting. There's no fair play;no rules except one : Kill or be Killed."
This is the stuff of warfare where the proper action counts based on the military unit's mission. It may be to close with the enemy,search and destroy and reduce the enemy's will to fight.
Death techniques are varied. Some have to be "swift,silent and deadly".
This is the moto on the patch with "skull and crossbones" of the old USMC Division Reconnaisance Units, 1st ,2d and 3rd Marine Divisions,FMF.
Cheers,
I don't think I have ever seen any technique , death or not, that you did not have to practice against a resisting opponent multiple times in order to use effectively. You can practice tai-otoshi without a partner as much as you want but you won't be able to do it unless you actually try it with a partner many times until it becomes second nature.
So my question is - how do you effectively master these death techniques?
johenora
11-21-2003, 14:46
Mr. Ramierz:
You have certainly put forth a good question.
Judo techniques, of course, are Gendai--sport.
If taught correctly are easy to learn but need practice. Constant repetitive practice such as UCHI KOMI enhances the skill and speed level.
Koryu techniques are old military classical techniques of Japanese Samurai and Bushi.These take the most practice.But are designed to militarily kill.
Of course, we have modern military techniques for quick, silent death or with a quick loud boom. Explosive techniques or with weapons..
In old Japan it took about 18 years of training to train a Samurai who was skilled in death techniques of the battlefield with a variety of weapons.
Then the age of the Samurai dwindled because of the gun.One could train a person in 30 minutes how to shoot a gun with a modicum of accuracy. In 18 months this person would be a full fledge Rifleman or Deadly Sniper like USMC Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hath**** with a .50 caliber rifle w/scope--line of sight. Gunny Carlos Hath**** had 93 confirmed kills in his Military Service Record Book (MSRB).
So my point is there is a simple way and a drawn out way to kill.
In particular see the post of Mr. Andrew Hutton aka Ninjandrew. He clearly and adroitly also answers your question.
There are some real "death hand"techniques that can be learned rapidly--such as killing a person with one finger. No practice is necessary--timing is a key factor.I will not tell anyone how to do it. One is called the "one finger of death". The opponent dies --ipso facto. You can not revive him.See Godfather III movie for some.
See DEATH TOUCH--the science behind the legend of Dim Mak by
Dr. Michael Kelly who is experienced in this dangerous method.
Also, see the book "21 Techniques of Silent killing" and the "Black Medicine Book" Series Vol I-IV by Dr. N. Mashiro.
Trained assasins can kill in a minimum amount of time with a maximum chance for lethal results.
Even expert martial artists can be killed . A top martial artist and I will not mention names because of the rules of this BudoSeek forbids me to--was put to sleep so fast with RAPID results. Admittedly the expert attacker had trained in this technique for over 30 years and he caught the victim off guard while the victim was talking and threatening and the Maiai (combat engagement distance)was close. The opponent had no time to resist. It was over with in 15 seconds from start to finish. Contact me via Email if you wish further details as to this incident. The closer you are the easier it is. He could have killed him for I well know his skills.If he wanted to he could have fractured his neck or broke the trachea. Instead of a deadly strangle --a safe coratid choke was used.
I do not want to belabor the point but a good mechanic is a good efficient mechanic---trained ---as you have so adroitly pointed out.I am in full accord with what you are saying.
Cheers,
jlyons360
12-31-2003, 08:07
Unless everyone commenting here is in the Armed Services, I don't think anyone is ready to deal with the consequences you will face when you "break someones neck" and kill them. Come on folks do you hear yourselves. We train to avoid conflict. We train our students to remove themselves from these types of situations by any means neccessary. We train our students to use physical force only as a last resort. And if we aren't teaching them this then we are doing our students a disservice.
We all know that by teaching our students where they should go and not go we help them to learn the tools of avoidance needed to navigate life. So we tell them don't hang out in bars, drunk people are more likely to want to fight. Don't ride on the last car of the subway at 3am alone.
Martial Arts are systems of peace. Through the understanding of the end result of violent action, our goal should be to eliminate violence in our communities. Ahh, but allways remember "When in doubt knock 'em out"
Well spoken, jlyons... Perhaps one 'legitimate' reason to look over stuff like killing and maiming techs is to understand how vulnerable human body can be, in order to be more gentle... Focusing to killing techs shows probably one living in some sort of fantasy world, and not nice one...
With respect,
Riku Ylönen
first if its flashy I doubt it a real death techniques . .
next now this is karate I'm speaking of and not the sports side but the self defense side . the purpose of the art was to defend , they had not courts to sue anyone in . so the purpose was to cripple or kill , if you take theses out , is it still karate ?
or something deferent ? most systems don't remove the wasa but instead teach a deferent meaning . usually a common interpretation a amote , not the ura thats usually reserved for some students .
but there are dojos that don't teach responsibly .
but in an attack I'd like the easiest fastest most effective means of putting my attacker down . those are simple wasa , not flashy or even noticed .
Thomas P Seymour
I feel that a lot of people here don't know what a "death technique" is. The difference between safe and deadly techniques most of the time is intent. When we practice throws, we throw uke so that he lands on his back, in a nice side fall position. This is because our intent is to practice safely. The application of the throw is to drop uke on his head, possibly breaking his skull, possibly breaking his neck. If you can throw uke into his side fall position, then you can throw him onto his head.
One of the quickest "death techniques" I know of is o'soto gari. Yes, that silly throw where you push ukes shoulder back, step next to him and sweep his leg out from under him. Just make a few changes to it. First, throw him judo style, where you sweep your leg high into the air, lowering your head to the ground while you stay balanced on the other foot. Instead of sweeping, you mule kick through the side of his knee. Instead of pushing or striking his collar bone, strike his neck hard wrapping your fingers around his throat. As you lower your head toward the ground, you are driving ukes head into the concrete with your hand which still has his throat. So, with this simple throw, that most of us practice all the time, even on resisting opponents, we can cause massive trauma and death very simply. To review, in my example, we tore out his knee, crushed his wind pipe and slamed his head into the pavement with more than enough force to break his skull and if we are lucky, we break his neck too. ( if we can sweep his body high enough and hold the remains of his head firm against the ground )
My point here is that most of what we are taught is plenty deadly enough, if we change our intent. As we get higher in rank, we are shown how to change our intent. I think one reason for this is to understand what it is that we are learning. Another is to understand how to teach someone else. To make the technique safe for the white belts in our system, I need to know the full extent of the technique, so that I can keep them well away from injury.
I think that many times "death techniques" are in reality "marketing techniques." Anytime there is a lot of hand waving going on about "secret death moves," I think it is a lot of hand waving. The secret of the real "death techniques" is that you already know them, you only need to change your intent.
Musubi Dojo
01-27-2004, 13:18
Well said William!
cheers
c
in karate the easiest and most deadly is a blow to the throat , breaking the esophagus and trachea . another the neck at the cervix breaking it cause instant paralysis from the shoulders down stopping the heart and lungs , as for throws the worst is a throw in pennon 5 no break fall you land on your chin breaking your neck . there are others . please don't assume I don't know what a death techniques is . or anything really . you don't know me . as I don't know you .
one, I wasn't aiming at you. I was aiming at those who are attracted by the "secret hand wavy technique of death." You and I share the same point of view. If you read my post again you will see that we are both saying the same thing: "just change your intent and your art becomes deadly." I am guessing that you have never crushed someones throat with a strike, merely because your intent is to practice without having to find new partners all the time. I am also guessing, that were it necessary, you could. Too many people look for the big flashy hand waving crap they see in the movies. In doing so, they pass up many more deadly and effective techniques because they are not labeled "secret touch of death."
I see that now ,
ya I love new students that the first they say "how long before I get my black belt " or the ones that think there magick here ,
I ones heard a kid say "a master can take away all your chi from across the room by waving his hands , LOL I tried explain what the hand juster meant in terms of bunki but they wanted the myth . Thomas P Seymour
Glenn J Hardman
02-04-2004, 10:16
I prefer to train to live, than focusing on "death moves". If I am attacked, I intend to use any and methods and techniques that will ensure my survival. If by chance my attacker dies or is injured, well that is all relative. If I survive, my objective was met, I don't tend to focus on the enemy's well being, whatever happens to him just does. The key thing is my survival first and foremost.
Scott Hayes
02-09-2004, 14:34
About 15 years ago a friend of mine got into a fight at a pizza joint and killed a man. He swore he had a gun and was in fear for his life. I went to most of his trial. The victim never had a gun. In fact although he didnt look it, he was mentaly challenged and by all acounts was a very kind sweet person.
My buddy says that as he was standing in line somebody grabed him in a headlock. He of course retaliated and broke the hold. He says as he faced his attacker he said the victim laughed said "he had something for him" and reached behind his back. My friend thought he was going for a gun so he punched him as hard as he could in his throat which not only crushed the mans esophegus but broke his neck. This is how my friend perceived what happened.
This is what really happened. There were about 10 witneses to the killing, as well as video. The victim was well known in the neighborhood and did odd jobs at the restraunt. He was 30 but mentally was arond 15 years old. as my friend was standing waiting for his food, back to the door, the victim came into the restraunt and said hi to a few of his friends. Seeing my buddy from behind he said to his friends something to the effect of "oh theres Steve" smiled and aproached him from behind. My friend was not Steve, the victim just made a mistake. Thinking my friend was his buddy the victim hugged him from behind. Mentaly challenged people often are very affectionate to their friends and this is not uncommon. This was also all captured on video. There was no headlock. But his arms did go around my friends neck. Sometimes mentaly challenged people do not know there own strenght so maybe he did squeeze him hard. My buddy broke the hold spun to face him. All the witness did say that the victim did make the comment that "He had something for him" and did reach behind his back but for his wallet not a gun.
All of this was a horrible mistake.
We talked for quite some time about this and how it happened. I grew up with this guy and knew him quite well. He had practised karate most of his life. But he was also one of these people who was a risk taker. He sky dived and raced motocross. More importantly he never backed down from a fight. This was a point of pride with him. The weeks preceding the killing his teacher had been teaching how to use deadly force. In fact he was on his way home from training when he went to the restraunt. I believe that was his mind set when the guy grabbed him. Before this incident I remember him telling me about how little pressure it took to crush someones throat and I remember thinking to myself that that was the last thing I would teach this guy. I think if his sensei truly knew him he would have thought the same.
The end results were my buddy was going to have to serve time in prison but he never made it that far. In civil court his sensei got his pants sued off by the victims family. So much so that the dojo went bankrupt.
To know how to kill is an awful responsibility. Even when justified, you take away any hope for redemption and mercy when you kill someone. To learn to kill is not fun, it is not exercise, it is not art. It may be necassary at times but it is terrible, bloody work that should only be learned by the most serious mind. A black belt or many years of training do not always make a person this way.
Take what you will from what I've written, but know this and hear me. If you have to kill even in defence of your own life, you will see that person in you dreams and your nightmares the rest of your life. No matter how justified it may have been there will be a darkness in your soul you will never get rid of. And God help you if you make a mistake.
As for my buddy he shot and killed himself he could not deal with the guilt of his mistake.
Scott Hayes
Mandeigh Wells
02-09-2004, 15:34
:frown: what an awful tale. Seems like in all honesty there were two victims in this. i know what you mean about people with special needs being affectionate and not knowing their own strength, I have been half thottled by a couple who were just being affectionate. It does seem like a lot of the incident involving your freind was about percieved threat rather than actual, and in the heat of the moment your freind had to make a descision based on that percieved threat...terrrible thing to have happen, just goes to show that none of us should take our art lightly.
sorry to hear about your friend
Mandeigh
Yes, very harsh... it shows the difference between fantasy world and real life: in real life we have to deal with the consequenses of our acts, in good and evil... Really sad story...
With respect,
Riku Ylönen
Scott Hayes
02-10-2004, 13:19
It does seem like a lot of the incident involving your freind was about percieved threat rather than actual, and in the heat of the moment your freind had to make a descision based on that percieved threat...terrrible thing to have happen, just goes to show that none of us should take our art lightly.
It was a sad situation all around. When one has the power to kill, there perception had better be perfect. There are no second chances. One simple punch and two lives were ruined, as well as family and friends who were left with the grief and anger.
Another point I would like to make is this. Having knowlege in "death techniques" and the wisdom and character to understand such power are to seperate things. I believe pride can affect this. Such power can be a heady experiance for anyone, young or old. Even the best of us can believe ourselves to be better than what we truly are. When that happens we often dont check ourselves, after all, if we are so good at what we do, why should
we need to rethink our approach? It is an easy trap to fall into.
Scott Hayes
jitsugaz
06-28-2004, 09:47
A sad and poignant tale indeed!
This should serve to tell us all, that which we possess, is knowledge, and indeed knowledge is power.
IMHO all techniques that are potentially lethal should not be described here, or any other place where juniors or less responsible people can view it! We teach a specific syllabus to juniors, and retrain in parts at a more suitable 'age'.
The story is the perfect Cautionary tale for all in Martial Arts.
不殺活人 fu satsu katsu jin
That is a sad family and shows how easily its done. I remember reading in the paper about a young kickboxer who was charged with murder after kicking someone in the head. The blow knoocked them out and they fell onto the concrete caused massive brain damage. http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7559796%255E1702,00.html
Like a few people have said, its not hard to kill somebody, but why learn it? You could use a knife, a gun, anything else as easily and effectivly but thats not the point. Why learn to kill? How about learning to learning to defend without killing, without injuring. I've had this with the instructors at Hapkido (no offence to anyone). They'll introduce something which will end with "and then their knee/elbow/rib will be broken". and I ask "I dont want to injure them, if I come out of a self defence situation unscaved and they have a broken something then IM the one in trouble".
Its harder but work towards living without having to learn to kill. Fusatsukatsujin.
lightninrod
06-28-2004, 19:32
To kill or not to kill...?
What a question!
It's all in the intent. As someone pointed out above, there are many techniques in many arts which only have to be altered slightly in order to have very serious consequences. But what would be the point of carrying it that far? If the same technique can result in either life or death, why choose death? Either way they are defeated and/or broken, and we get to live another day. For me MAs are for preserving my life and the lives of the people I love. They aren't about simply being able to kill someone. To use an old cliche... "That would be a perversion of the way."
As for how hard it is to break someone's neck, that depends on you and the person who's neck you would break. It's like asking, "How hard is it to hit someone in the face?" That depends on alot of things. Against the average trash-talking prick on the street, pretty easy. Against a skilled, senior MA practitioner, not so easy. I can say, however, that the best applications come from defensive response or a surprise offensive burst at just the right time. (Which in reality is just another form of defense.)
The key to anything, though, is timing and spontenaety. You don't go into a fight looking for a certain hold or a certain type of move. You should be able to do spontaneously whatever is appropriate at the opportune time. Depending on how someone comes at you, a neck-break may not be appropriate. You may try to apply it and lose when you could have done something else that was more appropriate to the circumstances.
Back to the life-or-death delimma, even if you do establish a neck-breaking technique/maneuver, why kill them with it? Just crack it really good and let them feel where you could take them next. Hold them at the verge and give them the opportunity to know their mistake. Break their pride if you want to. Give them respect for life. Make them your friend. Death is almost never necessary. Besides, pain and fear can be good teachers for people who will learn no other way.
Justin Mears
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For me MAs are for preserving my life and the lives of the people I love.
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I agree. But, if you and a group of friends attack my family, I won't really be interested in holding you at the verge, while your friends go after me or my family. If the neck break presents itself, then it gets broke. As many of us have pointed out, most of the "death techniques" are just a different mindset for the regular techniques that we do. In the event that I am defending my family from multiple attackers, possibly with weapons, I will error on the attackers not getting up rather than on my family being harmed.
However, that being said, most situations that people find themselves in, do not require or merit such a response. Most cases, it is far better to give them your money and go home. Money is something you can make more of.
lightninrod
06-29-2004, 23:17
I agree. But, if you and a group of friends attack my family, I won't really be interested in holding you at the verge, while your friends go after me or my family. If the neck break presents itself, then it gets broke. As many of us have pointed out, most of the "death techniques" are just a different mindset for the regular techniques that we do. In the event that I am defending my family from multiple attackers, possibly with weapons, I will error on the attackers not getting up rather than on my family being harmed.
However, that being said, most situations that people find themselves in, do not require or merit such a response. Most cases, it is far better to give them your money and go home. Money is something you can make more of.
No argument there. Desperate circumstances call for desperate measures. As I said, martial arts are for preserving my life and the lives of those I love. I would do anything I could in such a situation.
My point was, as you said, that most situations don't require such a severe response, and that one doesn't just go looking for a neck-break at the expense of being expedient. The opportunity for a neck break isn't always there and it shouldn't be chased after. Like you said, "if it presents itself....".
And when I was talking about "holding someone at the verge", I was speaking specifically about most people I have had mix-ups with, which were mostly arrogant, muscle-bound pricks who thought their machismo was more important than my health. There is a time and place for everything, and sometimes it's time for people to learn to leave other people alone. Breaking their necks would be going a little too far in such instances.
Justin Mears
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And when I was talking about "holding someone at the verge", I was speaking specifically about most people I have had mix-ups with, which were mostly arrogant, muscle-bound pricks who thought their machismo was more important than my health. There is a time and place for everything, and sometimes it's time for people to learn to leave other people alone. Breaking their necks would be going a little too far in such instances.
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I personally feel you should have more of a "do it or don't" attitude. If you don't want to break their neck, don't use the hold. One of the guys I used to train with, got this guy in a neck lock/break hold. The guy got really mad and tried to ram him into the wall to knock him off. All that happened was that the guy got his vertebrea broke, and then the paper work began..... That big oaf you got may not know what danger his neck is in, he just might try to muscle out of it, causing a lot of damage that you did not intend. Just because all the guys you train with can go to the edge without getting hurt, does not mean that the guy on the street can. The guy on the street goes till someone is hurt.
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And when I was talking about "holding someone at the verge", I was speaking specifically about most people I have had mix-ups with, which were mostly arrogant, muscle-bound pricks who thought their machismo was more important than my health. There is a time and place for everything, and sometimes it's time for people to learn to leave other people alone. Breaking their necks would be going a little too far in such instances.
============
I personally feel you should have more of a "do it or don't" attitude. If you don't want to break their neck, don't use the hold. One of the guys I used to train with, got this guy in a neck lock/break hold. The guy got really mad and tried to ram him into the wall to knock him off. All that happened was that the guy got his vertebrea broke, and then the paper work began..... That big oaf you got may not know what danger his neck is in, he just might try to muscle out of it, causing a lot of damage that you did not intend. Just because all the guys you train with can go to the edge without getting hurt, does not mean that the guy on the street can. The guy on the street goes till someone is hurt.
Very informative post thank you for the insight
lightninrod
07-01-2004, 10:59
I personally feel you should have more of a "do it or don't" attitude. If you don't want to break their neck, don't use the hold. One of the guys I used to train with, got this guy in a neck lock/break hold. The guy got really mad and tried to ram him into the wall to knock him off. All that happened was that the guy got his vertebrea broke, and then the paper work began..... That big oaf you got may not know what danger his neck is in, he just might try to muscle out of it, causing a lot of damage that you did not intend. Just because all the guys you train with can go to the edge without getting hurt, does not mean that the guy on the street can. The guy on the street goes till someone is hurt.
I must admit that you make some very good points here. Maybe I have been very fortunate that the few people I have done things like this to were smart enough to stop when they felt their neck pop and crack. The reaction I have gotten has been wide-eyed fear along with "Okay! Okay! I'll chill!", or something to that effect. But, looking back, I see that if they had continued to fight, I would have had to carry it through or let it go to keep from seriously hurting them and going to jail.
The only problem is that fighting someone conventionally who is younger, stronger, and faster just gets my butt kicked. I tend to try to end things as quickly as possible because I don't like getting hurt. It's only been in the last few years that I have found less extreme ways of of overcoming physical disadvantage with the same expediency as the more brutal stuff I used to rely on.
Now you have given me even more reason to explore "gentler" alternatives. Thanks for teaching me.
Sincerely,
Justin Mears
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