racist japan

[teashoci]

has anyone else here ever travlled to japan, I have extensivly due to my fathers job and have found the japanese to be very polite, though I suspect they are being polite through their teeth. They are the most anti foriegner , xenophobic people I have ever meet in my life.

Most bars , hotels have signs telling westerners that they are not welcome and some places will only let you in if you are accompanied with a japanese citzen.

any one with similer experiances here

[Jay Bell]

I'm sure I could sit down and write a short book on this very topic, but I'll get this brief. I enjoyed Japan...although there is such an enormous culture difference that I could never feel at home there.

Too many things were...well...extremely foreign to me. Things like common courtesy and manners mean very different things to me than they did there. Just not my cup of tea..

[Brian R. VanCise]

I enjoyed traveling to Japan immensely. I would recommend that anyone who can should travel some. See the world and generally it will make you happy when you come home.

[Koshu]

. . . See the world and generally it will make you happy when you come home.
Brian --- This is so right on!

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

You've just got to rise above it. If you are going to stay in Japan for extended periods of time, grow thick skin and patience. A lot of Japanese have a rather childish and narrow outlook on foreign countries.

A lot of the silly sods have never really talked to a foreigner in a meaningful conversation and just work from stereotypes that they have gleaned. For instance, I was once asked by some numpty if I was in the I.R.A. because I was Irish. :rolleyes:

During my first couple of years there, it was very hard to cope at times and it led to a couple of very depressing episodes. I was refused tenancy for housing eight times during my first year, because I was a "Gaijin-san". :hot: Regardless of the fact that I was able to speak the language on a communicable level and knew my manners, I was referred to as "mendokusai" (troublesome). Just basic pig ignorance or laziness.

On the flip side, I have met a lot of really great people in Japan too. Not just my budo sensei and sempai, but a lot of work colleagues and random people who have just been spontaneously kind when asked for directions (I've lost count of how many times I have been taken to certain places instead of just being given directions.)

I have always resolved to be nicer and more mannerly than those who are treating me with prejudice, just because I was a foreigner. If they are being out and out nasty, just don't ever go to that particular establishment again. Usually if you behave in a classier, more refined way than they do and just show that you are a good, ordinary, decent human being, they are the ones that lose face.

Kind of a simplistic outlook on things, but it worked for me and still does.

[Mekugi]

Most bars , hotels have signs telling westerners that they are not welcome and some places will only let you in if you are accompanied with a japanese citzen.


This is now supposedly "illegal" but you still find them up North in Hokkaido. I have never seen one in my five years here.
Renting apartments, houses and even getting a cell phone requires a Japanese Citizen to vouch for you (or your job) and it seems overly strict here- although similar rules can be found in the USA, the UK and Europe. The difference is, I have found, is they just aren't as happy to enforce them. Folks here are many times too eager to point these things out to you as if to say "See, you are a foreigner. You're not trustworthy". The Police claim that foreigners commit a lot of crime and the despite the facts and figures they throw around, I suspect their methods. One can sit down with a calculator and a basic understanding math and tally up that that every foreign national living in Japan would have to be committing several crimes every day in order to meet the percentage they are giving. I did a z-test on 5 different police reports from major cities last year, and the variance between it and the Tokyo Police "national" report release was so great I was in shock. I did the same thing for five different states in the US, the number I came up with and those of the FBI report seemed almost dead on.
Some of the categories the Japanese police use are aloof as well, such as "unsolved crimes" which means they have not caught a suspect or even know who did it- but suspect that someone "foreign" did. That, to me, seems rather odd. Yet I have never had any real problems with the police and found them friendlier than US police at times, even though stand-offish. Perhaps this is because I come from a place where the police are a little more "active" in their crime-fighting duties so they are more suspicious.

Japan could be viewed as a country "racist to the bone" by Western standards and many walk around in complete ignorance of their own behavior. Like Steve has mentioned, there are several different types of people here and not everyone is this way. Xenophobia is something that is getting a lot of "attention" as of late, and whether the society will really do anything about it remains to be seen. At the moment the Brazilian population is exploding and many times you will find both Japanese and Portuguese on signs (especially in my area) and a lot of very nice people that have traveled outside of Japan and are familiar with the world. There is hope, I believe.

[Peter Rehse]

Most bars , hotels have signs telling westerners that they are not welcome and some places will only let you in if you are accompanied with a japanese citzen.
Most bars, hotels? Where exactly did you go? Not my experience at all. If I were looking for that sort of thing I suspect I get on average more positive than negative discrimination.

There are difficulties but a lot of times that's just due to language.

[David Craik]

I suppose it depends where you go. Around military bases there's plenty of "no gaijin allowed" bars but considering the behavior of some military members out in town it is somewhat understandable. Miyajima area was loaded with them.

Further away from the bases, I haven't had a problem...though in some parts I was something of a curiosity. :)

[elder999]

Further away from the bases, I haven't had a problem...though in some parts I was something of a curiosity. :)

Curiosity? You should try it in nice brown skin and curly hair...:laugh:

[Ron Tisdale]

Been there, done that :) It wasn't so bad really. I've had a much worse time in white neighborhoods. No one in Japan tried to gang up on me and beat me to a pulp.

Best,
Ron

[Mekugi]

I suppose it depends where you go. Around military bases there's plenty of "no gaijin allowed" bars but considering the behavior of some military members out in town it is somewhat understandable. Miyajima area was loaded with them.

Unbelievable. This type of stuff is supposed to be "illegal". :rolleyes: Could you imagine if we did that in the USA?? If we stuck a "No Japanese Allowed" on hotels, bars and other tourist attractions? We'de get kicked in the teeth internationally.

[elder999]

Been there, done that :) It wasn't so bad really. I've had a much worse time in white neighborhoods. No one in Japan tried to gang up on me and beat me to a pulp.

Best,
Ron

Oh, I'll agree with that...and the two old guys in the locker room who were amazed that I didn't have a tail were kind of comical, once I knew what they were on about...:laugh:

'course, that was nearly 30 years ago, now....

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Been there, done that :) It wasn't so bad really. I've had a much worse time in white neighborhoods. No one in Japan tried to gang up on me and beat me to a pulp.

Best,
Ron

Indeed,

When my family first came to the UK from Ireland, it was just when a certain terrorist group was bombing department stores in central London. Got into fights left right and centre. Ended up a couple of times getting bottled or stabbed. I experienced more violent aggro, racism wise in the UK, than I did in Japan to be honest.

In Japan it was more a passive aggressive sort of thing. I was never ever refused service in a restaurant, never turned away from shops and was never turned away in budo circles. Anyone who had a beef with me either let it be known via not talking to me or just not interacting, which was just water off a duck's back.

Of course they'd talk about you in the trains, but once you made it clear that you were well versed in the language like they were, their faces would go red they'd shut up pretty quick. :D

[Ron Tisdale]

I never even had any problems in the onsen...:D believe it or not! ;)

B,
R

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Unbelievable. This type of stuff is supposed to be "illegal". :rolleyes: Could you imagine if we did that in the USA?? If we stuck a "No Japanese Allowed" on hotels, bars and other tourist attractions? We'de get kicked in the teeth internationally.

Not that unbelievable mate. As you know, I'm a pub manager and have had to bar an entire regiment's company from my establishment. They were nightmares - Spitting on the carpet, violence (I told you how I dealt with them via e-mail last year.), talking to the staff as if they were bits of excrement, refusing to leave when it was closing time and getting pissy about it.

At the end of the day, from a business perspective, you reserve the right as licence holder to serve whom you deem fit.

Now that they have been barred, a whole new set of customers have come in and business is getting better.

That being said, the bar owners in Japan don't make distinctions between foreigner and servicemen from the local barracks, which is rather silly.

[Mekugi]

That being said, the bar owners in Japan don't make distinctions between foreigner and servicemen from the local barracks, which is rather silly.

To me, the idea of "No Military" is better than "No foreigners" for sure. I am sure there are several that will disagree with me, though...and to be honest I would probably agree with any arguements said naysayers would make. There is a big difference between a 20 year old FnG with a newly acquired drinking problem and a group of seasoned, well mannered folk looking for a nice drink and comradery.

When my old man was in the the Navy, they still had "off limit" areas of Yokosuka and on the surrounding base coastline- they could only go to approved hotels, bars and other establishments. In some ways that is better, because at least the MP's could police thier own regularily. I wonder if that still happens today? I saw some of the old military GHQ approval signs in Okinawa when I was there last year, but they seemed to be for decoration and looked archaic. Incidentally, Okinawa is THE place for well mannered military and authentic American-style food. It's the only only place here I have had a taco and thought "Yep, that is a taco alright" and not reacted with a confuddled pause in chewing.

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Indeed.

Now we have allsorts in the pub - lawyers, builders, bankers, army pensioners and military. The other regiments in the area have always been proper gentlemen and have been mannerly to the point of ridiculousness and are always welcome. Some of the old sweats even help clean up!

It has always been one particular company of a regiment that has caused the trouble. And it hasn't just been the pasty, zit faced teenagers fresh from Catterick battle school, it has been some of their NCO's too.

It has to be case by case. You can't just generalize and say "No military whatsoever."

[David Craik]

To me, the idea of "No Military" is better than "No foreigners" for sure.

Not to me, we're not all animals. But as I said, I can understand the reaction of business owners given some of the shameful behavior that has occurred and reflects poorly on us all.

On the very rare occasion that I would go to a bar, I went to quiet Japanese places where I knew the owner. They aren't frequented by many Westerners not because they aren't allowed in, but because the place would be considered rather dull. In one in 2004, the owner remembered me (in a good way) from the last time I was there - in 1989. So I'm glad I made a good impression.

* edit - I didn't mean 'Miyajima' in my last post, I meant to type 'Misawa'. Need to quit posting before coffee.

[dao]

Unbelievable. This type of stuff is supposed to be "illegal". :rolleyes: Could you imagine if we did that in the USA?? If we stuck a "No Japanese Allowed" on hotels, bars and other tourist attractions? We'de get kicked in the teeth internationally.

We did worse. During WWII, we put Japanese-Americans in Camps such as Manzanar ( http://www.nps.gov/manz ) And before anyone says that was strategically necessary ask yourself why German-Americans didn't get the same treatment.

[David Craik]

They did worse too. Far worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila_Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

[Webmaster]

They did worse too. Far worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

R. J. Rummel, a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, states that between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military "murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.
Yes, I would say that 6,000,000 human beings murdered is far worse.

[dao]

I do too (editied that in to respond to Robert).

I think that all people and all races are capable of wonderful things and horrible things. So it bothers me when one culture (in this case Japanese) is pulled out and examined this way. I don't think all Americans are horrible people (and I try not to be) but, there are some I wonder about. I believe in looking at yourself and your own culture first. I'm bowing out of this topic now :bow:

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Can we get back on topic now? :bow:

Racism in Japan - Living with it and coping with it.

[Mekugi]

We did worse. During WWII, we put Japanese-Americans in Camps such as Manzanar ( http://www.nps.gov/manz ) And before anyone says that was strategically necessary ask yourself why German-Americans didn't get the same treatment.

Yes, yes I know. We had an "interment camp" on the Oregon/Idaho border, and stripped Oregon of some very fine American Citizens and farmers all in the name of fear..been there done that. We did the same to the Native Americans in the 19th century. It's was and is a travesty. It does not go on today, though....some would argue that Reservations are merely an extension of the past.

[Mekugi]

Anyone else believe this thread should be moved to the "Politics" forum??

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

It should stay in Japanese culture IMHO.

Reason being; The topic is about current day Japan and living with the racism and xenophobia of the indigenous people. You and Peter still live there, David and myself have lived there. We have dealt with it.

Either that or split the thread and debate on how internment camps are a by product of propaganda, fear, racism and xenophobia.

My tuppence on the matter. :bow:

[fifthchamber]

I don't believe that Japan is special in being particularly "anti foreigner"...Nearly all countries seem to have a natural instinct to group themselves into the "in units" and look at those who come from outside as "aliens", America, England, all countries do it to some degree...Americans in Texas I believe have a big issue with Mexicans coming into the USA...God knows why, it is big enough..And yet it's the same thing in essence..What Japan has to offer is better than the negatives which is why I don't mind being stopped occasionally by the police to check that I've not stolen my bike from some unsuspecting woman...And they are at least polite when they do stop you..Something coppers in the UK don't always manage..Hell, they usually have good stories about martial arts and why England is their favourite country once they find out that it IS my bike...Had a great discussion about "The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy" last time...A bit random, but fun nonetheless..
It's all the same, maybe in Japan it's easier to spot those who aren't from the country, but it's the same to some degree everywhere else, and even in Japan it is slowly changing..
Regards.

[Webmaster]

It should stay in Japanese culture IMHO.

Reason being; The topic is about current day Japan and living with the racism and xenophobia of the indigenous people. You and Peter still live there, David and myself have lived there. We have dealt with it.

Either that or split the thread and debate on how internment camps are a by product of propaganda, fear, racism and xenophobia.

My tuppence on the matter. :bow:
Better yet, let's just drop the comparison's on who is worse, interment camps and the like. I think the original topic, if we stay on track should give us plenty of discussion.

OK, my take on the matter.

Whenever you are the foreigner in a different country where the inhabitants are of a different race, you can expect to be treated differently. Yes, the Japanese are racist. So are the Chinese, the Koreans, and to a certain extent, the Filipinos as well. I have seen it with my own eyes over the years, lived it, and ultimately you learn to deal with it. You take the nuances of the culture, learn them the best you can, and try hard to not step over the line. You remain polite and respectful. If you behave well, then you will more than likely find yourself being treated likewise. The problem is that there have been too many Westerners that have made total asses of themselves and the rest of us suffer for it. When you do get treated like crap by someone that is truly racist (been there and done that), you deal with it like an adult, don't throw a fit and realize that you are in their country. You either deal with it, or you leave. Really just that simple.

[AndrewSimonsen]

I lived in Okinawa when I was younger, and though I don't remember much my parents have never said their was any discrimination against whites. In fact from what I have been told most people they encountered were very nice. Then again the Japanese from what I was told don't consider the Okinawans to be Japanese and the Okinawans agree with them on this so maybe Okinawa doesn't count.

[P Goldsbury]

has anyone else here ever travlled to japan, I have extensivly due to my fathers job and have found the japanese to be very polite, though I suspect they are being polite through their teeth. They are the most anti foriegner , xenophobic people I have ever meet in my life.

Most bars , hotels have signs telling westerners that they are not welcome and some places will only let you in if you are accompanied with a japanese citzen.

any one with similer experiances here

I think you are over-generalizing somewhat.

I live in Japan and have lived here since 1980, which will be 27 years come March.

I have generally found the Japanese whom I have met to be very polite, but there were indeed a few who were probably being polite 'through their teeth', as you put it. As for being "the most anti-foreign, xenophobic people I have ever met", well, obviously I do not have your experience. I have travelled to about 15 countries in the world as a tourist and have also lived for two years in three others as a resident, including Japan. Perhaps the Japanese treat foreign tourists and foreign residents differently.

As for your last paragraph, this has not been my experience. On the basis of my own experience in Japan, I would amend it to read:

"Most bars and hotels welcome tourists, but some have signs telling westerners that they are not welcome and there are some places that will only let you in if you are accompanied with a japanese citzen",

and add that these bars and hotels tend to be in the entertainment districts, such as Kabuki-cho in Tokyo and Nagarekawa/Yagen-bori in Hiroshima, for example.

So, there we are. I sign off here, by the way, since I am not really interested in discussing, on the basis of personal experience, whether the Japanese AS A PEOPLE or CULTURE are more or less racist than any other.

Kind regards,

[Ron Beaubien]

Hello,

I thought some of you might be interested in the following, if you hadn't seen them before.

Signs at Japanese businesses which openly deny service to foreigners:

http://www.debito.org/roguesgallery.html

Japanese universities that racially discriminate against foreigners:

http://www.debito.org/blacklist.html

Even No. 1 Travel (a subsidiary of H.I.S. Travel), which "has been serving the foreign community for 21 years," recently admitted to charging foreigners higher fares than Japanese people:

http://www.debito.org/HISpricing.html

How about the recently published "Gaijin Hanzai Ura File" which is about crime committed by foreigners in Japan, but then even includes a section on foreign guys picking up Japanese women, which is certainly not illegal:

http://www.debito.org/index.php/?p=192

The list goes on and on.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

[David Craik]

It does bring about some interesting moments. In Hiroshima we were eating in a restaurant and a Japanese man came in and loudly said to the waitress something on the lines of 'What are those *&%$ gaijin doing here?' I guess he figured he would not be understood.

Instead of getting angry I had our waitress take him over a beer (a little sneaky way of letting him know we knew what he said). It was declined, the waitress said, because he told her he 'doesn't drink'. Yet 10 minutes later there he was drinking a beer. Well, I'm a little hardheaded, so I watched out of the corner of my eye to see when he was about done with his beer and then took him another one over in person. He could hardly use the same excuse now.

He was thereafter quite friendly and we laughed and joked quite a bit. The waitress was probably convinced we were all loony though.

The Japanese are a rather befuddling folk to the Western mind, though I think subconsciously we want to 'pin down' an entire race of people as monolithic in nature. In my experience some are incredibly gracious, most very friendly, and then you have quite a few which are xenophobic - or even some combination of all three.

I've been to so many countries I've lost count, and Japan is the only place I've been barred from an establishment for being a round-eye (using that quaint crossed arms gesture) - but it is also the only place a complete stranger has literally gone blocks out of their way to show me where something was or invited me out of the blue to picnic with their family as I happened to just be walking by in a park. That's why 'The Roads to Sata' is such a good book, it really rings true and brings to mind similar experiences.

But I dunno, it's hard for me to be outraged by such things anymore. It's their country and perhaps I'm getting too old to care.

* cross-posted with Mr. Beaubien *

[Mekugi]

Hello,

I thought some of you might be interested in the following, if you hadn't seen them before.
-------------------------
The list goes on and on.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Ahhh yes, I was wondering when David Aldwinkle was going to enter into the conversation. He has a lot of intereting things to say and is a "social activist" for sure but I do believe he goes out of his way to find racism and perhaps goes a little overboard on some things. In others he is spots the nickel right off.

Incidentally, I have been trying to find that sign in Nagoya, I really looked all over and I could never spot it. I wonder if they took it down or if someone just put it up and snapped a photo outside a gentleman's club.

[Koshu]

Ahhh yes, I was wondering when David Aldwinkle was going to enter into the conversation. He has a lot of intereting things to say and is a "social activist" for sure but I do believe he goes out of his way to find racism and perhaps goes a little overboard on some things. In others he is spots the nickel right off.

Incidentally, I have been trying to find that sign in Nagoya, I really looked all over and I could never spot it. I wonder if they took it down or if someone just put it up and snapped a photo outside a gentleman's club.
OK, so you didn't find the sign. The better question is, did you find the club?? :D

[Mekugi]

OK, so you didn't find the sign. The better question is, did you find the club?? :D

It's supposed to be at Club Ozone (O-zone-ay) which is a popular spot over on this end of the island. I've been by there a couple times and could not find it. Found the club though....not my cup of tea. Most of the places David lists are places I would rather not go to begin with....in fact.

[unkokusai]

has anyone else here ever travlled to japan, I have extensivly due to my fathers job and have found the japanese to be very polite, though I suspect they are being polite through their teeth. They are the most anti foriegner , xenophobic people I have ever meet in my life.

Most bars , hotels have signs telling westerners that they are not welcome and some places will only let you in if you are accompanied with a japanese citzen.

any one with similer experiances here



No, I don't agree. I think you have taken some bad experiences and extrapolated irresponsibly. There is racism and exclusion in every country, city, and small town in this world, but in most places there are many more good, welcoming, and open folks too.

[unkokusai]

Most bars , hotels have signs telling westerners that they are not welcome


"most"? No, that is simply untrue.

[Koshu]

It's supposed to be at Club Ozone (O-zone-ay) which is a popular spot over on this end of the island. I've been by there a couple times and could not find it. Found the club though....not my cup of tea. Most of the places David lists are places I would rather not go to begin with....in fact.
Just as well. . . . Less trouble for us round-eyes and round-eyes-by-association to get into over there I guess. :clapping:

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

"most"? No, that is simply untrue.

Agreed. Bit of a gross over generalization that.

[allan]

The Japanese are a rather befuddling folk to the Western mind, though I think subconsciously we want to 'pin down' an entire race of people as monolithic in nature. In my experience some are incredibly gracious, most very friendly, and then you have quite a few which are xenophobic - or even some combination of all three.


My mileage has been about the same.

One of my students was a businessman who ran a security company. He seemed convinced that much of the violent crime in Japan was due to foreigners and he seemed anti-foreigner generally. Interesting that he had no problem discussing this with me during our lessons. As we got got to know each other a little better and realized that maybe we shared some old-fashioned Japanese values he said that I ought to marry his daughter.

I'm not even sure if he realized his contradiction.

On the trains sometimes, even when full, there would be empty seats beside me. On one memorable ride into Tokyo a grandma and her grand-daughter were sitting beside me. Grandma struck up a conversation and ended up telling me that she thought that maybe I was Japanese in a previous life.

All kinds of provocative contradictions.

[Neil Yamamoto]

OK, long post, sorry for the length, but this is somewhat serious issue I’m confronted with quite often.

Have I ever been treated badly due to race? Sure, I’ve been treated badly numerous times, only I was in the United States. Some of the most anti foreigner xenophobic people I’ve ever met in my life, but like Steve says, some of the nicest people too. As others have mentioned, my parents tell me about signs saying “NO JAPS” around their community as children. As recently as the 1960’s there were notices saying “NO BLACKS” as well in some parts of the country. While public signs are no longer around, the attitude still goes on in pockets of the population.

Same in Canada, I’ve been treated well, and treated badly. As well as in Mexico, although I will add the women in Mexico treated me far more kindly than the men for which I am very grateful!

I’ve been treated like crud by Japanese while I was in Japan too, since I was a American born Japanese who had, according to those lecturing me, “forsaken his heritage”. Never mind those same people treating me like dirt later contact me and want to come visit and have me host and pay them for the privilege of their company.

I’ve been treated wonderfully too, taken into people’s home and treated as family. Like the examples others have posted, shown extreme kindness when you know it was inconvenient for the people showing you the courtesy.

I’m truly sorry you encountered the problem, but you can let it influence you to hate or you can use it as lessons in how to deal with the problem as others have mentioned. This is not a matter what country has committed greater outrages in the name of race or culture. (You should be outraged by those events though.) It’s a matter of addressing it in your own conduct and that of friends. I’ve grown up with more racist crud directed at me than I like to think about. Here’s just a handful of examples of what I’ve encountered all my life.

In 1973, I am collecting money for my paper route in the Queen Anne Hill area of Seattle, a nice quiet community for the most part, where I’d lived since I was born. Two guys- adults, not kids- who I thought wanted my paper route money jump me. Nope, I’m just a “Jap kid” who got beat up by two idiots who hate minorities. I’m basing that off what they said to me while kicking me in the stomach. They didn’t even take my money, just beat the crud out of me. The good part, this made me not so opposed to training in martial arts.

Same year, studying WWII in school, Pearl Harbor and the name “Admiral Yamamoto” and the book “Get Yamamoto” comes up. The next two weeks I’m being charged and hit, having dirt clods thrown at me while the kids doing this stuff scream “Get Yamamoto!”. This finally ended when I kick one kid in the stomach so hard he puked on the playground and he didn’t come to school the next day. Did the teachers do anything about it? Sure, they complained to my mom about my kicking the kid.

1980, I’m riding the bus to work and an older man gets on the bus, sees me and glares at me for about 2 miles. Then he gets up and proceeds to tell me, in a thick heavy European accent, not sure from what country, that “I am a piece of xxxx, and don’t deserve to be here in this country, and I need to go back where I came from.” My response was “My family’s been here since 1888, Where am I supposed to go?” The driver stopped the bus and kicked the older man off.

In Boise Idaho in 1984 I was outside my ground floor room on the grass of the Shilo Inn where I was staying for a business trip. I’m in shorts and tennis shoes, no shirt, and was running through basic MA type warm ups and working out with my jo and bokken. (I had talked to the hotel managers first to get an OK) Suddenly I’ve got 4 cops around me with guns out, one telling me “On the ground!” and “another saying “Hands in the air!” I did what I was told, got cuffed, hauled up front to make sure I was a hotel guest, and then marched back to my room to check my ID while cuffed.

Luckily, another LEO to arrive just then knew my sensei, Bernie Lau- He had trained at the Washington Academy - and knew of me. He got things calmed down. Someone had called and reported a “Crazy naked Chink threatening people” according to him. I don’t blame the police, they were doing their job, but it sure was racially based on the call to the police.

In 1985 in Medford, OR, I’m in a Burger King waiting in line and two locals walk in and say in a loud alcohol slurred voices “Looky here boys, we got us a Slant eye!” and “Is that a Jap or a Chink?” among other comments.

The larger one reaches out and grabs me, as he pulls me around I hit him with my new I&I collapsible nightstick, and front kick the second. Nothing like taking the initiative despite being an aikibunny. The line has cleared, I tell the guy at the counter to give me a whopper, fries and a coke to go. The manager gives me my food, tells me to leave- it’s on the house, and to take off quick. I got back to my hotel and don’t leave again that evening.

In about 1987, I’m in Spokane WA, I’m in a pub called “Good Tymes” to have a drink. I’m suddenly confronted by a guy dressed like ‘Urban Cowboy’ who tells me, “I don’t like you fxxxing gooks!”, and proceeds to grab me. I kicked him in the knee, punched him in the sternum, and kicked him in the head. Hyper extended my left leg kicking him in the head too. He falls backward and bangs his head, and is out cold. His friend’s thought this was hysterically funny and bought me drinks, and the bar manager apologized and tore up my existing tab. No one got kicked out of the place; his friends just propped the idiot up in a chair at the table and proceeded to draw on his face.

In about 1989, I’m in Spokane again and I walk over to a 7-11 on Division Street, near my hotel. I’ve got two guys who tell me they hate Chinks and are going to kick my *** as I come out of the store. I throw my can of soda in the face of one and pull off a shiho nage against the second, who hits the ground and doesn’t get up. The guy who got the soda can in the face is on his knees groaning and dripping blood through his fingers. I grab my soda can and Fritos and take off before the cops show up.

I’m in Boise in 2002 for my girlfriends Grandfather’s 80th birthday. The most common thing said to me on the trip was “What they did to your people was wrong.” Referring to the WWII internment. Meant kindly but...

On the same Boise trip I’m in Rite Aid and I’m being stared at with a look of pure hate from several people. I encountered this several other times on the trip as well. One man started towards me with his fists balled and you could tell it could get ugly. Until I did one of Bernie’s Lau’s tricks, I asked him for a smoke and complimented him on his jacket. Disrupted his train of thought long enough for me to walk away with a cigarette I didn’t want.

I’m in a North Seattle restaurant about two years ago with my buddy Adrian who is half Black/Cherokee Indian. We are waiting for service and when the waitress finally comes over, she’s got an attitude going and service is horrible. She finally brings our check, we pay cash, and as she walks off we hear her mutter “Fxxxing n-word”. We have not been back.

An example from my buddy Adrian’s life. His mother, let’s call her Mrs. P- who is Black, is on the bus and sees a large blonde woman, about 6 foot and very fat, berating a South East Asian woman with foul language and pushes getting more violent as the blonde gets worked up. Mrs. P, who was 82 when this happened, goes over and tells the blonde to stop. She turns on Mrs. P and calls her a not nice name and raises her hand to her, threatening to beat her like a slave. Mrs. P then proceeds to clock her with her purse, flooring the blonde and then lectures her about her behavior. Bus stops, police show up, the blonde is give the choice of not pressing assault charges or filing charges against Mrs. P, and then being charged herself with a hate crime and two charges of assault, as well as whatever misdemeanors they can come up with. Given the number of witnesses, the blonde declined to press charges.

As an example of what I term “DUH” behavior (behavior that is not intended as racist but still is racist) a friend of mine- highly ranked in a Japanese art too – tells people that “Despite being Japanese, Neil does not act very Japanese.” And this from some one whom should know better.

No, of course I don’t act very Japanese. I was born and raised in the United States of America. Yet, I’m still expected to be Japanese? Why? Cause I look the part: a suave and somewhat worn but still ruggedly handsome man of Japanese descent. Anyone, who has met me, shut up!

I have a somewhat antiquated perspective of Japanese culture since the Japanese cultural practices we had in my family are from end of the Tokugawa era- beginning Meiji Era and verging up into the Taisho Era via both sets of Grandparents. So, my take on Japanese culture is not accurate to modern day, hardly making me Japanese. But what I look like is the basis of judging what I am typically.

The same can be said of most Hawaiian born Japanese. Their take on language even is stilted towards when the ancestors arrived on the islands, as are the cultural aspects in many families. (Example- Very few people call a rice ball “musubi” anymore outside Hawaii) This is a good example of Japanese - American culture vs. Japanese culture. Not the same thing.

So,” What have you learned Dorothy?” There are really ignorant people everywhere, who chose to cling to their beliefs and misconceptions. The only way I’ve ever found to get past it is to find a way to make these people see value in what you do, what you are, and in what you believe. Even in Hawaii, a real melting pot, haole is not a compliment, is it?

This can be as simple as consistent behavior patterns on your part showing your worth or finding a common link for communication. Since this racist behavior – ignorance - hate of anything different is really emotionally based, very seldom will this be achieved quickly, and no one should expect it to happen easily. If it does, be happy about it.

This is why there is such a contradiction in behaviors; someone who comes to like you and treats you well may end up saying horrible things about someone else right in front of you. No, it doesn’t make sense does it?

On the other hand, the way one conducts oneself can sway perceptions and reinforce the stereotypes people want to cling to. Use this to your benefit. It’s a two way street, though we never think so when confronted with racism but it same attitudes that cause it can be turned around and used to help you deal with the problem. I’ve done this very successfully but like I said above, it takes effort and work to find a means to convey that you are worth that person’s time to look past their misconceptions.

Couple examples: In a Korean restaurant, served by an older woman who proceeded to nag at me about the superiority of the Korean culture over Japanese. Until I proceeded to engage her in conversation about how Japanese ceramics made owe their origins to Korean workers, the superiority of Korean naval technologies in the Korean invasion by Japan, the Korean textiles and bridge Korea formed for cultural exchange in Asia, and other topics she cared about. By the end of the meal, my beers and shochu were free, she was sitting next to me chatting and offered to introduce me to her daughter next time I came in to eat.

I’ve was being called “slope” and “gook” and baited to fight with that “kung fu we all know”. I stopped the three idiots when I laughed and gave them a lecture on the proper use of derogatory racist terminology. In about 5 minutes they were laughing and apologized to me. I’m sure they still use the terms, and have done it to others since me, but at least it may not turn violent and they might think twice before starting in on someone else.

The large minority rights groups seem to have simply turned it all into simple adversarial tactics so I stay away from them myself. So to my point of view, there is nothing I can do about racism except try to counter it on a personal level when possible. You can’t always do so, and you should not expect to have success most of the time. Is this worth the time to do? I think so.

But when the alternative is “Hate ‘em back”, which is more productive for your own self - respect and happiness?

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Neil,

Which made it more productive for you?

[seidogirl]

I'm really enjoying this discussion. I'm thinking about going to Japan for a karate tournament in November. I'll only be there about 2 weeks, but I am now taking a Japanese class at a local college so I can have some idea of the language if I go. I'm a little surprised to hear some of you say you encountered racism though. That seems a little scary to me, but I guess we can't expect people in other countries to act the way we might like.

[Mekugi]

I'm a little surprised to hear some of you say you encountered racism though. That seems a little scary to me, but I guess we can't expect people in other countries to act the way we might like.

I doubt that you will. You'll have a good time!

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

I agree with Russ on this one, you'll enjoy this.

[Rich]

I was in Japan for five years. Someone in an earlier post mentioned always having empty seats next to them on the train. I found the same thing. It was annoying but I if they would rather stand, that's their choice. What did annoy me was going through the gates at the station (which are two-way) and having people intentionally move over into that gate to block me getting through. The most annoying thing was constantly getting shoulder checked when walking along in crowded areas.

I have to say that western women have it worse than guys. A female friend of mine was attacked and when she reported it to the police was treated like a criminal. They made her put on the same clothes she had been wearing, took her to the spot and took photos of her. They then suggested that she had encouraged the attack because of her clothing and even implied that she was a prostitute. The whole event was very traumatic for her.

I did meet some very nice people but I also met a lot of extremely xenaphobic people. Having been there for five years and learnt a bit about the culture, I have to put the blame on the education system. That is whole other topic though.

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

I was in Japan for five years. Someone in an earlier post mentioned always having empty seats next to them on the train. I found the same thing. It was annoying but I if they would rather stand, that's their choice. What did annoy me was going through the gates at the station (which are two-way) and having people intentionally move over into that gate to block me getting through. The most annoying thing was constantly getting shoulder checked when walking along in crowded areas.

That's why some of us ex-pats at the time developed the game, サラリマン・スキットルズ (Salaryman Skittles). If you have any experience in rugby (Or American football), you'll get the idea. Immature yes, but good therapy.

[Rich]

That's why some of us ex-pats at the time developed the game, サラリマン・スキットルズ (Salaryman Skittles). If you have any experience in rugby (Or American football), you'll get the idea. Immature yes, but good therapy.

Yep, being a fellow Brit I have plenty of Rugby experience and I did sometimes just plough through knocking salarymen to left and right. But then we're only reinforcing their stereotype of westerners.

I tried to remain aloof but got tired of the constant staring and comments. I think that if you don't understand the language you can cope but when you know what they're saying and when you are aware of the passive-aggressive behaviour it gets really annoying.

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Yep, being a fellow Brit I have plenty of Rugby experience and I did sometimes just plough through knocking salarymen to left and right. But then we're only reinforcing their stereotype of westerners.

Yes, agreed. I grew out of it, after a while. It was rather an immature way of dealing with things, I admit, but at the time as a young 20-something, being stared at and commented on, it was a good release. I'm a lot more mannerly nowadays.


I tried to remain aloof but got tired of the constant staring and comments. I think that if you don't understand the language you can cope but when you know what they're saying and when you are aware of the passive-aggressive behaviour it gets really annoying.


I posted something similar on this thread above, but you have to rise above it all and be a better human being. Don't allow yourself to be an easy target.

[Neil Yamamoto]

Neil,

Which made it more productive for you?


Been meaning to post and just keep getting busy and forgetting.

I'd like to say I'm above getting mad and hating these type of people who show their ignorance on their sleeves, but I'm not. It's some of both, look for the good and learn to be careful about the bad has ended up being my approach.

That's part of the reason I stay somewhat secluded, and am very careful about who I fully trust and and let into my life. That applies to everyone I meet, regardless of ethnic or cultural background.

As to Japan, I still love the cultural aspects, the history, food, and have found memories of the place. For anyone who goes, the good will outweigh the bad in my opinion.

Maybe it is considered immature as you guys say, but I was likewise young, only 18. I still have fond memories of "accidently" elbowing a jerk on the subway going out to Denen chofu to my uncle's house. And one of knocking flying a very rude man in Tamagawadai park as well with my version of what Steve calls salaryman skittles.

[Shinken]

One of my English students studied abroad at my University to learn English because he's interested in joining the Japanese Police Force. He was mentioning foreign crimes as a reason for learning English. Why he felt comfortable telling me this was beyond my understanding.

The idea of mentioning to him that learning Chinese would have been much more productive as a foreign language occurred to me, but even despite a relatively low rate of British/American crimes, I guess he could find a good use out of it.

[Enyu]

One of my English students studied abroad at my University to learn English because he's interested in joining the Japanese Police Force. He was mentioning foreign crimes as a reason for learning English. Why he felt comfortable telling me this was beyond my understanding.

The idea of mentioning to him that learning Chinese would have been much more productive as a foreign language occurred to me, but even despite a relatively low rate of British/American crimes, I guess he could find a good use out of it.

I don't think that's limited to British/American crimes. There are a lot more people in the world who speak (at least a certain amount of) English as a foreign language than people who speak Chinese as a foreign language. The chances of communicating with a Ukrainian, Dutch, Lebanese, German or Indian criminal using English are usually much higher than they would be when using Chinese.

[Shinken]

That is true. But statistically speaking, Chinese have far higher per capita crime rate in Japan. I think that's because of the economic factor as well as the fact that many 3rd/4th generation Chinese still have to hold passports in Japan.

[Mekugi]

He was mentioning foreign crimes as a reason for learning English. Why he felt comfortable telling me this was beyond my understanding.


Someone is not up with the times or the understanding the "actual" duties of a Japanese policeman isn't understood. First off, it would probably be more effective to learn Portugeuse as there is a Brazilian crime wave in Japan right now, according to the news (if you can believe anything they say or any of the "police reports," which equate to as a "shaky guess" in my standards). Second, this young man will spend 90% of his time as policeman giving directions to tourists at a police box on a corner as opposed to the "fantasy" of actually fighting crime.

[Da-RiSiN-sMoKe]

I'm Korean, does that make you feel better?

Well, in Korea we are pretty polite, trust me.

It's like a martial arts movie I heard of, can't remember what it's called but, "Choose your side, Yakuza or Triads."

[Jeff Burger]

In a class in Japan a guy points at the hair on my arms and says (via interpretor )your people are closer to the monkey than me.
I did not need a interpretor for my response, I drew a mushroom cloud on the board and left.

It blows me away to hear people tell me how much more "evolved" their race is.

I have had similar comments made in China.

Chinese for China is Tsungwa = Middle Kingdom. So if your not a god or deity of some sort you must be below them.

After a few days of hearing racist crap from the one guy in the town who could speak English I snapped back (yeah I brought up why learn the language of a inferior race).

He was really testing my buttons when I remembered a comment the day before. I had mentioned why is there so much garbage along the street, dont you have a dumpsite.
His response was ALL modern countries have trash like this and China is a modern country so of course they will have it too. All these trash things are from products.....
So on one of his "closer to the moneky" comments I said.
"Your right my people evolved from the monkey" "You obviously evolved from the rat. Thats why your proud to live in filth and why you look like this." (made squinty eyes and buck teeth face).

I never heard another racist comment from him after that.

Its not easy for me to go there and its exspensive so if someone is going to go out of their way to make my precious time bad I'm going to give it back 10 fold.

[fifthchamber]

Hi Jeff,
You'd have to agree that replying in kind to comments as baseless and void of meaning as those you list simply antagonizes the situation though..If he hears you do the same as him (Or her I guess) his inference is going to be that he was right after all and westerners really don't have the politeness of the Japanese (extant or not..). If you smile and argue the case out in as few insults as possible he loses on all grounds..He is shown to be wrong, and allowed to accept his mistake, and that would mean that he may (possibly..Possibly not..) change those opinions sometime later...
It's always easy to insult someone insulting you..But it's not the best course of action unless you really don't care what that person thinks..And if you don't care then what he said should not bother you enough in the first place to warrant a reply..
I admit, it's often harder than I make it seem, but the best response I have seen is to prove them entirely wrong...
By the way, I might argue that the use of Nuclear weapons allows far greater range for "munkey jokes" than a more rational response..
Regards..

[David Craik]

I thought the Japanese liked Monkees.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/38/4e/10cb820dd7a004103a8fd010._AA240_.L.jpg

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

What happened to Mike Nesmith and Peter Tork?

[Kalidor]

In a class in Japan a guy points at the hair on my arms and says (via interpretor )your people are closer to the monkey than me.
I did not need a interpretor for my response, I drew a mushroom cloud on the board and left.

It blows me away to hear people tell me how much more "evolved" their race is.


Wow, that must have been terribly irritating. However, there seems to be quite a bit of history between asia and the west that certainly might contribute to these feelings of ill will towards westerners.

A mushroom cloud for example representing the indiscriminate incineration of primarily civilians. A bombing that many may argue was primarily politically motivated.

The black ships, [elsewhere in asia]: the opium wars, unequal treaties, etc

Ideas regarding the prevalence of rape among servicemen; whether real or perceived such crimes occurring on your native soil committed by foreign inhabitants is always viewed, regardless of the country, as far less acceptable than when similar crimes are committed by your own. Perhaps most illustrative of this, the recent revelation of Post-WW2 Japans' decision and US approval to maintain comfort women for use by US personnel as a buffer to protect local women.

Cocky GI's, feelings of entitlement brought about by being a citizen of a wealthy country, possessing a strong currency, out for some R&R and a late night root. With no concern to the remote possibility that just maybe some of these women have no choice to prostitute themselves, others are forced into such roles [Filipinas and Eastern European women around Tongduchon]. Unfortunately, with such limited exposure to the local populace, such glasses of entitlement [read arrogance] are often worn far to long and even after returning home.

Racism is a problem everywhere, however drawing a mushroom cloud [which in light of civilian casualities SOME might call a tragedy] I think certainly begs of the same kind of supremacist ideologies that may have helped to establish the type of hatred of westerners you encountered. Espeicially since in doing so your message is so very clear:

"Know Your Place BIT**

[Jeff Burger]

Yes that was my message.
I'm there to train, it cost me alot, it wasn't easy to arrange, it was my first trip (exciting and scary at age 17).
So yes that was my message.
His place was not to go out of his way to continually harrass me. I laughed it off, ignored and it kept coming. I shot back it stopped. Might not have been the right thing to do but it proved good enough.

So if you were trying to make me feel guilty I don't.


As for the rest of that post I'm not very sympathetic to hippy philosophy.

[jutsow]

Its all mathematical....
Racism is inversely proportional to I.Q.

[Kalidor]

I'm certainly not against defending oneself. But a mushroom cloud? It really isn't a symbolic attack you can just localize to just the offender.

Its kinda like if I was a Saudi being harassed by some americans and in retaliation drawing a picture of a plane flying into the twin towers. Something that likely will draw ire from offending and non-offending parties alike.

Also, although you say that

"His place was not to go out of his way to continually harrass me"

It seems clear that your real message was to assert your peoples' superiority. I mean what was the real message here?
"We can nuke you all of you f**kers. We did it once, we don't give a sh** about the thousands lost in collateral damage, hell we can do it again."

or perhaps:

"Remember the A-bomb you lousy japs, you are in no position to be talking about your superiority"

An approach outlined like that by fifthchamber, or at the very least a retaliation less all-encompassing might even help to change some attitudes rather than reinforce them.

Regarding philosophy, nothing i've written is "philosophy". Rather I wish only to illustrate why anti-west ideologies may have arisen. Also to illustrate what many Asians may be reminded of when encountering rude foreigners [i'm not saying your rude].

From my appearance [i'm half Asian-Indian] I am often viewed as a foreigner both when in Eastern Asia and within the US [even though I was born there]. I've faced racism on both sides of the globe. However, in doing so, one thing I definitely wouldn't do is choose a sensitive issue where thousands of people have died and use it as a contention of my superiority, strength, or control.

[unkokusai]

I drew a mushroom cloud on the board and left.

"You obviously evolved from the rat. Thats why your proud to live in filth and why you look like this." (made squinty eyes and buck teeth face).


:hot:


You sound like a grade-A *******, an immature little fool, a closet bigot, and it's a crying shame you didn't get the beat down you deserved on either of those occasions. That is how you handle difficult situations? There are stupid people in every country, don't feel you have to outdo them all. Stay home, it only embarrasses the whole country when numbskulls like you are let loose.

You're a disgrace...


I suppose I'll be banned now, so let my last comments to you be this: STFU Idiot.

[David Craik]

Yup. Violation of rules 5 and 6.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Unfortunatley there are racist jerks in every country, every city, every town. However there are more good people than there are jerks. I have met racist people everywhere I have been but the good people have always been in the majority. It is hard when someone says something and their is no definative way to deal with any situation. (they are all unique) The last time I came across a racist comment in a foreign country I just decided not to train with that individual again. They were blissfully unaware that I overheard them (as they thought I could not understand) but in the end they will lose out. Nor will I recommend them to others. Really, this goes on everywhere.

[Mekugi]

I find that I am doing a lot of "self-editing" lately when it comes to modern Japanese culture. I dunno what it is, but it seems that when I came here, I was a lot let prejudiced against the people of Japan in general. The longer I live here, the more people I find that are racist (and start to take notice.) Then again, I've found myself saying things about Western culture that I would not have said before living here. For example, I am embarassed by loud, trouble making "Westerner." I know that they don't represent me, but sometimes when folks are drunk things get out of hand...and then all eyes turn to the white guy sitting in the corner trying to eat dinner.

I suppose that is natural...then again it disturbes me.


-Russ

[Kalidor]

For example, I am embarassed by loud, trouble making "Westerner." I know that they don't represent me, but sometimes when folks are drunk things get out of hand...and then all eyes turn to the white guy sitting in the corner trying to eat dinner.

I suppose that is natural...then again it disturbes me.


-Russ

Unfortunately, the actions of single individuals tend to reflect the very ideas the majority accepts regarding their minority group. This is true everywhere.

As far as the evolved from a rat comment, the buck tooth and single eyelid caricature, I think most will agree unequivocally, that they were racist. Additionally, they seem to allude to what you truly believe of those of Asian descent.

For those living overseas, it is sometimes best to just ignore such comments, as allowing others to get a rise out of you often times gives them what they want. However, I suppose it is very difficult when roles are reversed and you are facing racism from a people you regard as inferior. As Mekugi described, there are "loud, troubling making westerners" who believe that, like in the US where Asians are often held is lower regard [in the media for example], they can do whatever they want and say whatever they want with no repercussion.

Reinforcing the idea that westerners are loud, disrespectful, arrogant, however, only makes things harder for us overseas.

[Fist Of The MidEast Star]

Well............ Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh,

Every country has their racists my friend.

[David Craik]

And Japan is loaded with them. In my perception though - and that may be all it is - it often seems a different 'sort' of racism, one propagated by ignorance alone rather than a combination or ignorance and hatred. It just seems a bit different than say, the racism of a "redneck". More passive, I guess; and at times almost comical in a weird way. Nothing beats wandering into a shop in some backwater and watching the proprietor react to your arrival as if he had been physically struck. It's like something you would expect in Fiji or the Amazon Basin in the 1900's, not in one of the most modern countries on earth in 21st century.

Once again must put in a plug for the book 'The Roads to Sata', it is right on the money.

[beungood]

I'm sure I could sit down and write a short book on this very topic, but I'll get this brief. I enjoyed Japan...although there is such an enormous culture difference that I could never feel at home there.

Too many things were...well...extremely foreign to me. Things like common courtesy and manners mean very different things to me than they did there. Just not my cup of tea..

what were the differances and why did they put you off?

[Mekugi]

Okay a semi rant coming on here...not exactly racist...but it has a racist face to it.
This statement:
"You just cannot understand Japanese culture."

This has to be the most contrite load of BS I have ever heard. Most of the time, what people think is "culture" is just a blend of ignorance and stupidity covered up with this statement.

Let me give you an example.
Recently I had a friendly argument about where colds come from with a neighbor, who is in fact a doctor. The whole thing started with "If you go outside without a coat on during the cool days of spring, in the rain, you will catch a cold."

I explained to the good doctor that "being cold" does not in fact have any significant effect on the "catching of a cold." In fact that in was a germ, called a "virus" that invaded the body and began to replicate. The body then defends itself by giving you a cold, more or less. I mean, I haven't been to medical school or anything- but I am educated enough to know that.

The doctor would have nothing to do with it, began to point out what I like to call "quack" medicine as references. I came back the next week with a copy of medical journal I bought online just for him, an extensive section on colds and the viruses that cause them (all in Japanese). His reply was "well, that is not the way it is in Japan. You just cannot understand Japanese culture."

Now, this is really an insult to my intelligence as the subject has nothing to do with culture, but FACT. This is just something that people say because people here have problems with hubris and emotions, and do not know how to deal with it. So, rather than being an adult and standing up to realize that this person is incredibly wrong and should probably go and do some more studying, the easier route was to suspect that I do not fully understand the culture and wash their hands with the situation.

-long pause and sigh-

-Russ

[Abbax8]

People are people. Kind, considerate, patient, ignorant, conceited, jerks. Some feature these traits more often than others. Most display them at one time or another. Culture defines a people, but individuals clash or get along not cultures as a whole.

Racism to the point of hatred is a different animal. To "hate" another person is a learned and chosen way of being.

Example (PURELY HYPOTHETICAL): I am raised as a child to hate blacks. In my neighborhood there are no black families but I learn all the epithets to call them and all the garbage to spew which is praised by my parents. Then I meet my first black person or persons in a setting where I am neither the large majority or minority and such behavior is costly, say at college or work. I am forced to work next to a black person and my senses tell me he is alot like me, he has a wife and kids he loves, he likes sports or music, he goes to church or fishes or Sundays, whatever.... My eyes and ears tell me one thing, my upbringing tells me another. How I choose to view the person is now a matter of choice. I can choose to continue to be racist or change and see the person as another human being.

Peace

Dennis

[P Goldsbury]

Okay a semi rant coming on here...not exactly racist...but it has a racist face to it.
This statement:
"You just cannot understand Japanese culture."

This has to be the most contrite load of BS I have ever heard. Most of the time, what people think is "culture" is just a blend of ignorance and stupidity covered up with this statement.

Let me give you an example.
Recently I had a friendly argument about where colds come from with a neighbor, who is in fact a doctor. The whole thing started with "If you go outside without a coat on during the cool days of spring, in the rain, you will catch a cold."

I explained to the good doctor that "being cold" does not in fact have any significant effect on the "catching of a cold." In fact that in was a germ, called a "virus" that invaded the body and began to replicate. The body then defends itself by giving you a cold, more or less. I mean, I haven't been to medical school or anything- but I am educated enough to know that.

The doctor would have nothing to do with it, began to point out what I like to call "quack" medicine as references. I came back the next week with a copy of medical journal I bought online just for him, an extensive section on colds and the viruses that cause them (all in Japanese). His reply was "well, that is not the way it is in Japan. You just cannot understand Japanese culture."

Now, this is really an insult to my intelligence as the subject has nothing to do with culture, but FACT. This is just something that people say because people here have problems with hubris and emotions, and do not know how to deal with it. So, rather than being an adult and standing up to realize that this person is incredibly wrong and should probably go and do some more studying, the easier route was to suspect that I do not fully understand the culture and wash their hands with the situation.

-long pause and sigh-

-Russ

Yes, this is sometimes why I tease my (Japanese) students, when I have to explain how to read & understand some Japanese characters in the Kojiki, which they have never read in the original Japanese before coming to my class. Sometimes I tell them (in Japanese) that for someone who does not really understand Japanese culture, I seem to 'not understand' their own culture far more than they 'don't', if you see what I mean.

They look at me in shock and wonder if they can really believe what they are hearing. It is in Japanese and it is about the Kojiki, which underpins Japanese culture as they understand it...

Best regards,

[Digi]

That has also happened when it comes to the pyramids in Egypt. For a long time, archaeologists have been trying to understand how the pyramids were built using the tools of that era. Certain groups of archaeologist could not produce an answer, so they made up a theory about aliens building the pyramids.

It's very hard for some people to admit wrong or acknowledge that they don't have the proper knowledge about a certain subject. So it's easier to make up a silly theory. It happens in martial arts as well. I'm hate to put people in the spotlight, but I've been able to capture footage with William Chueng using techniques that would stop an average grappler at all. I feel that it's all pride.

[Insun]

Although this happened almost 56 years ago I still won't speak to Japanese people. My parents moved us to Japan when I was 5 years old to get a job. Three days after arriving in Japan my father was beat to death by his Japanese coworkers for not doing "their" share of the work along with his. My mother told me that the police considered it an accident eventhough she witnessed the entire attack. She carried his body to the local hospital and they refused to treat him and he died while my mother held him. We moved back to Korea the next day. My mother was pregnant with my younger brother at the time. We grew up very poor. Being raised by a single mother in Korea in the 1950s was horrible. It wasn't until I was 11 years old that she could even afford to allow me to attend public school. I was 11 years old and in the first grade. Not a day goes by that I don't think about how much I miss my father and how Japanese people killed him. I always wonder how different my life would have been had I been raised with a father.

[Madmatt]

I had to jump in on this what about Gitmo and water bourding? What low have we the people sunk to?
Madmatt
Okinawa te

[TonyU]

I had to jump in on this what about Gitmo and water bourding? What low have we the people sunk to?
Madmatt
Okinawa te
If you want to discuss torture go to the following thread as this one about racist Japan.

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22835&highlight=torture

Other than that, welcome to BudoSeek.

[Webmaster]

I had to jump in on this what about Gitmo and water bourding? What low have we the people sunk to?
Madmatt
Okinawa te
How is this relevant to the discussion about racism in Japan? It really isn't and using the "we're just as bad" argument is juvenile.

People who go to Japan and have negative experiences are there of their own free will and "guests" of that country. Terrorist inmates at Gitmo are hardly "guests", but are enemies of our country. Whether the use of strong interrogation techniques such as water boarding is appropriate in this case is it's own discussion and off topic from the one being discussed.

[Steve1]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is "gaijin" This is a term that I'm not familiar with

[TonyU]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is "gaijin" This is a term that I'm not familiar with
A Japanese term for a non-Japanese person, usually in derogatory format.

[Mekugi]

How is this relevant to the discussion about racism in Japan?

I agree. While it is an interesting topic it is totally off *this* topic. :D

[Steve1]

Thanks for the reply. It's interesting to note that no matter where you go in the world you will find racism. Japan is not the only country that habors this dreadful trait. It is an evil that needs to be stamped out and the only way for it to be stamped out is for the hearts of men to change.

[Webmaster]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is "gaijin" This is a term that I'm not familiar with
Basically, "gaijin" means foreigner. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaijin

[Mekugi]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is "gaijin" This is a term that I'm not familiar with

What Tony said. It's the slang for "gaikoku-jin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaijin)". I use it myself when talking about rude foreigners- and I probably should not.

Interestingly enough, this word can also refer to people outside of your town, city or prefecture. Say, people from Osaka visiting Tokyo would technically be gaijin.

[Steve1]

That's interesting, I quess that every culture has its derogatory word to degrade anothers race. I quess that every race looks with suspicion at the other and as a result a distrust is created within their heart for one another.

How do you cure this, because this should not be so?

[Mekugi]

That's interesting, I quess that every culture has its derogatory word to degrade anothers race. I quess that every race looks with suspicion at the other and as a result a distrust is created within their heart for one another.

How do you cure this, because this should not be so?

There's two ways, IMHO. First is the annoying child method, which has a rhyme: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me." Usually the reason people use these stoopeed words is to illicite an emotional response or to fit in. If we all stopped paying attention, then the words would float away and cease to be used. That's in a perfect world, of course.
The other way is to perhaps not see people as race but see them as individuals. Of course that won't happen until the Martians invade earth and we can fight as mankind, against the tyranny of the Martian Overlords and their plans to enslave us (into trading cards? I have the entire series of "Mars Attacks" from the 1960's. It describes just that!)

It's much more interesting to come up with names for these guys anyway:
MARTIANS (http://users.breathe.com/redplanet/ambass.jpg)

[Steve1]

Originally posted by Mekugi
The other way is to perhaps not see people as race but see them as individuals.

Its good to see people as individuals, and we should, however not to see ones color is paramount to not excepting someones culture. Most of the times war is waged because of difference in culture, and sometimes it is waged because of the spoils of war. Which ever one you chose to wage war over, "people die."

Racism is a sin that needs to be eradicated. We are the same before God and when we die we will stand before him and be judged as men and not as a race.

[David Craik]

I suppose with respect to the subject matter of this thread the particular 'gods' you believe in would play a part, as would centuries of xenophobic influence. I believe Japanese racism will decrease in time, as the younger generations who have more contact and interaction with foreigners supplant older generations.

It didn't affect me too much the times I lived in Japan. I don't consider the opinions of me by a generation that created an unspeakably evil abomination like Unit 731 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731) to be particularly worthy of consideration.

[Steve1]

[QUOTOf course that won't happen until the Martians invade earth E][/QUOTE]

Personally I think that we are going to be invaded by kligons and I really don't like these fellas

[Steve1]

:D May be you guys can help me out here. How do you use the quote section.:confused:

[David Craik]

You hit the 'quote' button, use the little icon that looks like a text balloon on the reply section, or put {QUOTE}{/QUOTE} with the text in between, substituting the { 's for [.

[Steve1]

You hit the 'quote' button, use the little icon that looks like a text balloon on the reply section, or put {QUOTE}{/QUOTE} with the text in between, substituting the { 's for [.

please excuse the experiment, I'm trying to see how this thing works.

[David Craik]

Looks like it worked out! :D

[Steve1]

Thanks! I appreciate your help.

[Steve1]

I suppose with respect to the subject matter of this thread the particular 'gods' you believe in would play a part, as would centuries of xenophobic influence. I believe Japanese racism will decrease in time, as the younger generations who have more contact and interaction with foreigners supplant older generations.

It didn't affect me too much the times I lived in Japan. I don't consider the opinions of me by a generation that created an unspeakably evil abomination like Unit 731 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731) to be particularly worthy of consideration.

Its been my experince that the older generation has a tendency of passing its beliefs and dogmas to their young. As a result racism will perpetuate as long as the older generation keep's passing their hatred to their children. Its a never ending battle that will not end.

[David Craik]

Naa, in general each successive generation releases more and more of the dogmas taught by the previous ones. This was pretty apparent from living in Japan in the 80's and 2005. Even in the United States, racist beliefs common even 60 years ago are now considered extremist and 'fringe' by most of the population. Things like the KKK aren't widely considered a champion of whites in the South any more, they're viewed as a bunch of backward morons. The absolute shock of a Japanese person seeing a gaijin in Japan common in the past is rare today to the point of being rather comical - and confined mostly to backwater regions.

So while the older generation tries to pass it's ideas to the young, these thoughts tend to get more and more watered down and rejected as people draw their own conclusions with experience and contrast them with what their parents and grandparents thought. The stir caused by Elvis the Pelvis on the Ed Sullivan Show or having black dancers on America's Top 40 wouldn't even raise an eyebrow today. As the world grows smaller people will release their provincial thoughts more and more, as we interact with each other on an increasingly global scale. Give it time, us humans tend to take awhile to wise up sometimes.


Its a never ending battle that will not end.

Yeah, never ending battles have an odd habit of, well, never ending. Of course, considering it to never be capable of ending is to admit defeat and consider the battle futile - an unacceptable attitude IMHO. Our children's children will in general consider our silliness ridiculously quaint and reject our backward prejudices, as it should be.

[Mekugi]

The stir caused by Elvis the Pelvis on the Ed Sullivan Show or having black dancers on America's Top 40 wouldn't even raise an eyebrow today. As the world grows smaller people will release their provincial thoughts more and more, as we interact with each other on an increasingly global scale. Give it time, us humans tend to take awhile to wise up sometimes.


Think of the headlines from the 1960's, and how lame they appear today:

African-American votes!

African-American rides on bus.!

African-American uses toilet!

African-American uses water fountain.!

African-American goes to school!

African-American uses swimming pool!

Putting this on the headline of paper today would sell zero copies.

Back in 1990, there were a bunch of skinheads at a river-park called "High Rocks" in Oregon City. They started yelling at this black kid swimming up stream from them, using the usual racist dogma and horrible slurs and started pushing the kid around. The crowd at Highrocks *literally* rose up and beat the living tar out of these people, one of them almost lost an eye. The police eventually came, broke up the crowd and carted the skinheads off. They were never seen again at the park. It was traumatic but at the same time it made a big impression on me at 19 years old. The moral to me was "act like a racist dirtbag, get the snot beat out of you".

[Madmatt]

:bow:
How is this relevant to the discussion about racism in Japan? It really isn't and using the "we're just as bad" argument is juvenile.

People who go to Japan and have negative experiences are there of their own free will and "guests" of that country. Terrorist inmates at Gitmo are hardly "guests", but are enemies of our country. Whether the use of strong interrogation techniques such as water boarding is appropriate in this case is it's own discussion and off topic from the one being discussed.

Thank you for pointing that out to me I thought this was about racism in general. As for me being juvenile I must disagree.I dont think you need to get personal in your reply but if it makes you feel better.

thank you

Matt
Okinawa te

[Webmaster]

:bow:

Thank you for pointing that out to me I thought this was about racism in general. As for me being juvenile I must disagree.I dont think you need to get personal in your reply but if it makes you feel better.

thank you

Matt
Okinawa te
Oh please, don't be disingenuous. Your statement ...

I had to jump in on this what about Gitmo and water bourding? What low have we the people sunk to?
... has nothing to do with racism in general.