View Full Version : Front Breakfall
Hello there,
I am kindly asking for help and advice to improve my front breakfalls, or front drops.
To start off with, I tend to either do a front breakfall in either two ways. Firstly, I seem to put my hands too far backwards and end up jarring my shoulders a bit (bad) or if my hands are more forward (closer to the top of my head when landing) I end up breaking the fall, but my chest still hits the mat.
So, when landing, where is a good position, with regards to the rest of the body to land the hands without jarring the shoulders?
Is the fact that I am still hitting the ground with my chest an indication that I am doing it wrong, or that I am just not quite strong enough to stop the fall entirely?
Are the elbows best sticking out, or close into the body when landing?
How would should my feet be when landing? (I have seen some land with feet almost together and feet about twice shoulder width and many in between).
How much angle should I have at the waist? (or...how far should my bum stick up in the air?) Again I have seen some people land very straight, such as in a straight pushup position to quite angled.
Hmm quite a few questions there. I have tried looking for a video but I have found one, but it wasn't great to say that least. So, if someone has a link to a video showing the correct technique (hopefull in slow motion as well) that would be great. It's hard watching other in classes do it becuase it means
a) I don't get to practise because I am watching them.
b) Every practises at different levels, so if I watch the brown belts showing off doing it fancy-like I don't learn much.
c) Even if I watch one doing it well, falling is just so fast. And I can't ask them to do it in slow motion for me.
Thanks everyone for help.
Ninja in training
02-04-2007, 04:37
Hey there Danielle,
I've been taught to create sort of a triangle with my arms(hands giving a shuto to the mat). In our club our instructor wants us to land with one leg in the air, giving a back kick. When you do that it doesn't make the fall so intense. Front break falls suk. They are by far my least favorite. And everybody does em differently. With time you'll find a happy place with em and they won't be so bad.
:wink2:
Some points that may help from the way we do forwards breakfall or forwards flat as we call it.
Start from your knees until you get some confidence up. Move onto squatting and only lean forward a short distance so that you a re not stretched too much. You should keep an arch in you body to stop stress on your spine.
Once standing lean forward, once again not too far and arch your body.
When hitting with your forearms we always have the hands in fron t of the face and the elbows about shoulder width. Too wide and your face becomes flatter. We turn our heads to the side to brevent the head coming forward and striking the ground. Make sure you hit hard.
The bit about arching your body so your backside is up above your shoulders cannot be over stressed. I didn't once and spent a bit of time with a strained back. We usually keep the legs about shoulder width apart but that is a matter of personal or style choice. We always turn on our sides after to be ready to defend on the ground and get up with as small an amount of movement as possible.
Hope that helps
Webmaster
02-04-2007, 07:54
I've been taught to create sort of a triangle with my arms(hands giving a shuto to the mat).
Definitely NOT the way to slap the mat!
The whole idea of ukemi is to spread the force of the fall out over a wider area rather than have the impact of the fall focused on a specific area. A shuto has just the opposite goal because striking with the edge of the hand focuses energy into a smaller area and gives you more penetration into the target. Instead, you should slap the mat the same way you would with any other fall, with the flat palm from the tip of your fingers, along the palm and then to the underside of your forearm. Also, experiment a bit with the triangle that is mentioned above. If your elbows are too close to the body or underneath your body, you are focusing the energy of the fall on your elbows and you are likely to injure your elbow or shoulder. If the elbows are too wide, then you will not effectively break your fall.
James O'Neill
02-04-2007, 08:23
We make the triangle with the arms but slap with the palm flat as Robert indicates. ...Not only do the forearms form a sort of triangle but the hands do too - thumbs & index fingers touching or nearly touching.
This 'assembly' should be directly under your face so if you mess up, your face hits the hands & not the ground. The forearms should be at ~45 degrees from the 'hand triangle' described above.
Toughest thing about learning the slap portion is making sure your forearms hit first & the impact energy sort of "waves" out to the hands from there. You must get up on your toes so your knees & groin are off the mat in the ending position too.
And finally, arching your back slightly may help you some. However, if you have a large chest, you may feel some impact regardless - it should be mitigated enough to be tollerable though. Good luck!
Ninja in training
02-04-2007, 09:33
[QUOTE=Webmaster]Definitely NOT the way to slap the mat!
*shrugs*
Whatever then.....
Webmaster
02-04-2007, 09:39
[
*shrugs*
Whatever then.....
Fine, then it's YOUR body. If you are an instructor, I really hope that you don't teach your students that way. If you do, make sure you have some really good liability insurance. You are going to need it.
As Robert and James have indicated are the correct way that I also have done for years. I also learned another way that is, I feel more advanced and thus more difficult. I also would only use it for softer grounds and not so severe throws and that is using your arms as coils or shock absorbers. You land in a push up position and then control your descent. Not for the inexperienced. Your timing must be perfect. I've had great success with it on the streets as it also allowed me to spring back up. Again I would recommend it unless you have been taught properly and practice many times.
*shrugs*
Whatever then.....
Disagreeing is one thing. I suggest you check your sarcasm.
Ninja in training
02-04-2007, 09:57
[
Disagreeing is one thing. I suggest you check your sarcasm.[/QUOTE]
In that case.....I respectfully disagree:bow:
Webmaster
02-04-2007, 10:00
You know NiT, one of the ways that folks in the Jujutsu and Judo community pick out the BS artists from the real deal is how they slap the mat. It's a small thing, but it reveals a lot. In my 35 years of experience, the ONLY folks that slap using the blade edge of their hand are those that have tried to learn Jujutsu (or Judo or Aikido) from a video. Would that be the case here?
Ninja in training
02-04-2007, 10:28
You know NiT, one of the ways that folks in the Jujutsu and Judo community pick out the BS artists from the real deal is how they slap the mat. It's a small thing, but it reveals a lot. In my 35 years of experience, the ONLY folks that slap using the blade edge of their hand are those that have tried to learn Jujutsu (or Judo or Aikido) from a video. Would that be the case here?
Robert,
It was not my intent to sound like a jerk when I said "whatever then". It was just my way of saying that You were taught one way.....and I was taught another. It it definately was not an attempt to challenge your credability.
I take credability very seriously, so to answer the question about "trying to learn jujutsu via video", I train at the Bushikai Taki dojo in Halifax Nova Scotia.
1000 apologies:bow:
This is a good discussion if done right and a lot can be learned. But first I must say, Miss Stevens please follow the teaching and advice of your sensei and when you practice please do under the supervision of someone more knowledgeable about break falls.
Let me pose a question for discussion. Who teaches or practices break falls on different surfaces besides the mat?
When I used to teach recruits break falls and rolls once the had the basics down I used to have them try it (slowly) outside on different surfaces as grass (not as soft as one thinks), pavement and macadam. I also had them try it with their equipment on. It's one of the things I learned early on.
With caution try it.
I learned and teach front breakfalls in the following manner:
1) Assume a jigotai position, hands at your sides.
2) Simultaneously bend your knees a little more and swing your arms up, reach out in front of you as you fall towards the mat.
3) Your hands slap the mat palm down, your forearms also slap the mat.
4) The final position is your are supported by your hands, forearms and toes. Your body is in a pushup position with your butt a bit high. Your hand are above shoulder height but below eye height (this is a generalization as body type has an impact). Your hands are inside your shoulder ball joint but not past your breasts. For me my hands are approximately 8 inches apart.
5) Once learned, remember NEVER to fall like this unless you absolutely have no choice, turn and roll out is preferable.
Peace
Dennis
Webmaster
02-04-2007, 10:58
Robert,
It was not my intent to sound like a jerk when I said "whatever then". It was just my way of saying that You were taught one way.....and I was taught another. It it definately was not an attempt to challenge your credability.
I take credability very seriously, so to answer the question about "trying to learn jujutsu via video", I train at the Bushikai Taki dojo in Halifax Nova Scotia.
1000 apologies:bow:
Keith:
It was also not my intention to come across as a jerk, but frankly, slapping the mat with the edge of your hand during ukemi is so far outside of the reservation it's not even funny. You are being setup for serious injury and it calls into question the legitimacy of any instructor that teaches it that way. You can always blow off my concern by saying I was taught one way, and you were taught another, but that does not make it correct. If I taught something that was potentially dangerous with the excuse that I was "taught that way", I would still be wrong. I do not know how long you have been training at your dojo, but I would say that it's time to start asking some critical questions about what you have been taught.
Tony --- In addition to formal warm-ups, we encourage all students (mudansha and yudansha alike) to take extra ukemi practice before and/or after class to dial in the falls that need work, or simply keep them sharp. As stated elsewhere on these boards, a student may not get into a physical altercation the rest of his/her life, but most certainly all of us will take at least one fall outside of the dojo. We formally practice all falls (rolling and aerial) on the dojo mat and grass, and everything but the forward rolling aerial breakfall / air-roll on pavement (though those of us who've tried it have lived to tell about it).
As for the front breakfall/drop. we do it much like James and Robert describe, with head turned to the side. Like Dennis, I like my hands slightly lower (i.e. fingertips below my mouth/chin) -- feels about the right place to protect face and chest without stressing the back and shoulders. We encourage our students to dial in the relative location of their hands to what suits each of them best. Ideally, not only can you roll to the side easily after executing the fall, but also spring forward from the forearms like an inchworm and get onto your feet. I like the suggestions above of starting from the knees, and in general bending the knees (always important to lower yourself into ukemi when practicing). I practice this fall both timbering and kicking my legs out the back from a standing position (again, from bent knees).
Keith --- Do you really feel that a front fall using shuto is advisable on pavement? Do you use the shuto for any other ukemi? Slapping on concrete with a flat palm is a reality check on its own, and helps modulate the degree of slap you should use in general (vs. trying to pummel the mat during practice). Also, after reading the earlier posts in this thread, I tried doing the fall with one leg in the air back-kicking. I can see how it causes some notion of deceleration, but it seems to compromise the stability of the landing. My experience is that when a technique cuts your legs out from under you in faster drills, there's no time to do much other than get your head turned and your arms under you.
Jason T Gatts
02-04-2007, 11:24
Reading over everyone's step by step descriptions I'm left wondering if turning your head to one side is to be assumed or if I was taught differently?
Meaning - when you are on the floor with your toes, forearms, and hands touching the ground you are looking either left or right (not directly at the floor).
Edit:
Sorry, cross posted, I guess Koshu just answered my question.
Reading over everyone's step by step descriptions I'm left wondering if turning your head to one side is to be assumed or if I was taught differently?
Meaning - when you are on the floor with your toes, forearms, and hands touching the ground you are looking either left or right (not directly at the floor).
That's correct, either left or right. That was assumed, but good question. The idea behind that is protection your face from whipping onto the surface on impact.
Jason T Gatts
02-04-2007, 11:29
Thanks Tony, I figured it was so obvious that no one bothered to type it.
James O'Neill
02-04-2007, 11:36
Yep, face to the side - just neglected to mention it but an important point not to be overlooked in practice nonetheless.
Gordon Nore
02-04-2007, 12:55
Hitting the mat with the palm, not the blade of the hand, is what I was taught. We refer to the positioning of arms above the head as a baseball diamond -- head is home; right elbow is first base, and so on. Fingers are together, with the thumb on the side of the hand, not tucked under like a shuto. Head is tilted back and turned to the side.
I stand somewhat beside and behind a beginning student -- on a diagonal -- and have them looking directly at me while they fall. (I do this with any student who appears to be frightened of falling.) That keeps them from looking at the mat and panicking on the way down, pulling in their arms, etc. Job one is to learn to protect the head.
I tell students I expect to hear a big "bang" when they hit -- more body mass hitting the mats tells me the impact has been distributed, and that they are less likely to injure elbows, wrists, etc. My overall strategy is to constantly remind the student that he or she might use this one day on the sidewalk and by distributing their mass, they are less likely to break something.
A bruise is better than a break. The head is the most important part of your body to protect when falling.
Ninja in training
02-04-2007, 13:09
I'm going to find out why I've been taught this way.
Ninja in training
02-04-2007, 13:13
the whole shuto hitting the floor thing.
James O'Neill
02-04-2007, 13:50
Good attitude dude - and whether or not you like the answer, it doesn't automatically invalidate everything else you have learned. Absorb what is useful...
Brian Dugger
02-04-2007, 16:37
If after making all these revisions to your front falling, Danielle, you still find that your chest hits the floor--push ups. If upper arms/body strength isn't the variable in this and your chest still hits the floor, I personally would not call it a problem. Attempting to put it delicately, perhaps just a cramped situation for that moment. I'm sorry, but I'm trying to avoid offending and being lewd. Just tryin' to call it like it is.
elder999
02-04-2007, 16:54
Good posts...about the slapping with the shuto thing, though-not only does this not dissipate the force (which is the intention with slapping breakfalls) but actually turns the arms in a way that increases the likelihood of injuring the elbows-the point of the elbow makes contact with the ground in a more impactful way. It will work (the shuto contact) on mats, but will hurt like holy hell on concrete.....
It will work (the shuto contact) on mats, but will hurt like holy hell on concrete.....
Why I asked if anyone fell or practiced their breakfalls on anything other then mats. Falling on concrete will correct any mistakes.
elder999
02-04-2007, 17:03
Why I asked if anyone fell or practiced their breakfalls on anything other then mats. Falling on concrete will correct any mistakes.
Start street clothes workouts on asphalt with my green-belts. Generally have a few people drop out after that...:laugh:
Webmaster
02-04-2007, 17:18
Another reason why you should not slap with edge of the hand is that it compromises the position of the elbow and makes it more vulnerable to injury. For instance, lay on your back and spread your arms out 45 degrees from the body with the palms down. Now, turn the hands so that the blade edge of your hand is in contact with the ground. You will notice that it changes the alignment of the arm by placing the elbow at that bottom and makes it likely that you will hyper-extend the elbow when you slap.
elder999
02-04-2007, 17:38
Another reason why you should not slap with edge of the hand is that it compromises the position of the elbow and makes it more vulnerable to injury. For instance, lay on your back and spread your arms out 45 degrees from the body with the palms down. Now, turn the hands so that the blade edge of your hand is in contact with the ground. You will notice that it changes the alignment of the arm by placing the elbow at that bottom and makes it likely that you will hyper-extend the elbow when you slap.
Yeah, what I, said...:laugh:
Seriously, though-koryu and most of the "ninjutsu" I've seen don't slap much for falls, but dissipate the force through a body roll, or "slap" with the feet (because there's supposed to be a weapon in the hands). I'd be extremely suspicious of anyone who taught to fall by "slapping" with the shuto, but especially someone teaching "ninjutsu" or koryu........
Musubi Dojo
02-04-2007, 18:05
I just scanned the thread. Some excellent advice here.
The only thing I would add is turning your head to side so as not to break your nose. (don't think I saw it) :D
Cheers
c
Webmaster
02-04-2007, 18:09
Yeah, what I, said...:laugh:
Ah ha, you were talking about elbows and front falls (or at least I read it that way), but I was talking about falls in general. :t2:
I just scanned the thread. Some excellent advice here.
The only thing I would add is turning your head to side so as not to break your nose. (don't think I saw it) :D
Cheers
c
Post 17 & 19.
Musubi Dojo
02-04-2007, 19:52
Post 17 & 19.
That's what I get for rushing. :o
Cheers
c
Brian Dugger
02-04-2007, 20:36
Ah ha, you were talking about elbows and front falls (or at least I read it that way), but I was talking about falls in general. :t2:
Man, Robert!:smack: :idea: :banghead:
The consensus tips on doing the front breakfall really show their value when one of the uke's arms is bound/locked while taking the fall (the free hand shifts to the body's centerline to protect the head)! In that case, Unless the tori is drawing the uke forward, it's also safest for the uke to proactively kick his/her feet out the back, vs. timbering to avoid damage to the shoulder and arm joints. Yes, it "saves face" whether performed on the mat, grass or pavement! :D
Has anyone seen the video released by Ellis Amdur : UKEMI From the Ground Up? (http://www.ellisamdur.com/buy.html#ukemi) Although it is "marketed" for Aikidoka, it has a lot of solid information for any practicioner of any martial art.
Webmaster
02-05-2007, 14:09
Has anyone seen the video released by Ellis Amdur : UKEMI From the Ground Up? (http://www.ellisamdur.com/buy.html#ukemi) Although it is "marketed" for Aikidoka, it has a lot of solid information for any practicioner of any martial art.
I did a review on the DVD and it is excellent. While it has been a while, I do seem to recall that he did not advocate turning the head to the side during front falls. I may be wrong since it has been a while since I last watched it.
I do highly recommend the Eliis' DVD for those that are into arts that include breakfalls!
Musubi Dojo
02-05-2007, 14:25
I do seem to recall that he did not advocate turning the head to the side during front falls. I may be wrong since it has been a while since I last watched it.
Interesting. Do you recall any of the reasoning behind it?
Cheers
c
STORMCROW34
02-05-2007, 15:12
I don't know if it will help, but here's a link from a reputable source that shows some ukemi animations. All of which demonstrate the palm striking the mat.
http://www.judoinfo.com/ukemi.htm
Ninja in training
02-05-2007, 16:55
Good attitude dude - and whether or not you like the answer, it doesn't automatically invalidate everything else you have learned. Absorb what is useful...
The thing is, if I haven't learned something as simple as a front fall corectly, what else am I doing (and teaching) incorrectly. Ive been with this club for quite a while and I hate to think my time may have been wasted. But Ron was right, I do have some critical questions to ask.:(
The thing is, if I haven't learned something as simple as a front fall corectly, what else am I doing (and teaching) incorrectly. Ive been with this club for quite a while and I hate to think my time may have been wasted. But Ron was right, I do have some critical questions to ask.:(
Keith --- Do you slap with shuto for other breakfalls (same critical analyses would apply)?
Ninja in training
02-05-2007, 17:31
Keith --- Do you slap with shuto for other breakfalls (same critical analyses would apply)?
No. We do use a cupped hand when slapping the mat though........
No. We do use a cupped hand when slapping the mat though........
Yeah, if you haven't already done this, I'd suggest slowly and carefully trying the various falls with cupped hand / shuto as you currently do them on a hard but semi-pliant surface (e.g. wood floor, carpeted floor), then try them with a light to medium slap instead and compare. When slapping, the arm shouldn't be extended at a right angle to the body (too much aggravation on the shoulder), but rather more of a 45-degree angle (different folks may prefer the angle a little wider or more acute, but from experience I can tell you that 90 degrees is way too wide). The whole arm, not just the hand, should slap; and the slap should be relaxed (slapping with gusto even on a wood floor can sting and even severely bruise the hand, elbow, etc.).
Interesting. Do you recall any of the reasoning behind it?
Cheers
c
I don't remember any reasoning by Mr. Amdur, but I noted that he keeps his head and chest well away from the ground.
So, while we know the turning the head to the side idea, I have some gleaned ideas from various sources about not turning the head: This is my two bits on it:
Not turning your head when doing a breakfall is not uncommon. The way I learned originally was to turn the head, but I have since found that many do not. There are a couple schools of thought on this, and to me none of them are more correct or incorrect (this serves as a nice disclaimer, so I can weasel out one way or another).
One idea is that technically, you are not supposed to "land flat"(which has advantages) but absorb the impact on the "perimeters" of the body and lower torso, thus keeping one from from having the wind knocked out of them and protecting the chest. Doing this naturally places the face in a position that will not impact the terra. Another idea is found in the wearing of armor, which would keep the face up off the ground in many instances (Athough I am uncertain about the validity of this myself). Still yet another is that if you are shoved that far forward, it is done so quickly that one will not have time to turn the head (which makes sense, as it seems an afterthought at times) so it is better to absorb the impact on the fleshy parts of the arms, and cup the hands slightly to cushion the face if it whips to the ground (not slapping the ground). In this way, one does not assume that turning their head will prevent injury (such as from rocks) and make effort to keep the face from the impact and absorb it in the hands if unavoidable. It seems that relying on the turning of the head will not keep one from bashing the side of their noggin on a rock, which can be deadly (the kasumi, or temple, is a blunt weapon target that can lead to brain hemorrhaging). I have also seen some schools that turn the head downward slightly so the the forehead will impact- the hardest part of the head. This leads into another school of thought, brought along by the concept of a "whiplash" effect- keeping your head "straight-forward" prevents the whiplish effect in the position of a breakfall (although not totally). A simple test is found by applying pressure from the back of the head while the face is in the "foreward" position, while placing their arms up in a triangle position (such as in a front breakfall). This can be done by leaning up against a wall with the front or back of the head as the contact point (You have to figure out how to get into this position, too hard to explain). So, essentially what you are doing is leaning up against a wall with your head, your arms in front and neck slightly flexed to give resistance. Make sure your family and friend are out of the room when you do this; even the dog may give a funny look. This is not how one would impact or should impact on the ground, but it demonstrates the musculature and dynamics of the muscles in the chest, shoulders and neck. Notice that neck and shoulders in this position are working in unison; this is the same muscle group that helps "prevent" whiplash. Now do the same thing only this time turn your head to the side. Notice that instead of both muscles on the front of the neck working together, only one side is doing the job (the side being turned to), and thus, weaker. The head is also easier to collapse in this position and can lead to a nasty neck injury if the whipping effect is strong enough (usually not from a font breakfall, though).
So really, to me the safety issues are in the teaching. The overall principle IMHO is to keep the head, regardless of the position, away from any damaging impact on the ground. If this is done, then there should be no problem in the way the head is turned. This is because to me, both schools of thought have good points and bad points and thus negate each other from argument.
I second Chris' advice on turning the head sideways. That protruding lump of flesh called 'the nose' is more prone to come in direct contact with the floor than the rest of the face when doing a front fall. It gives you a bit more breaking distance so to say. Besides, the front of the head seems to have more weak points that the side of the head.
---------edit---------
Now I read Russ' post and I must conclude that I have overlooked the temple as a weak point.
I must agree with his conclusion but I'll stick to the way I was taught since I do that automatically anyways.
Musubi Dojo
02-06-2007, 08:20
I'm just going to wear a crash helmet from now on....:wink2:
Thanks for the insightful answer Mekugi!
c
I was not taught to turn the head. I was also taught to NOT use the front breakfall unless there was no other way. I can truthfully say that since starting judo I have never used it. Even when I tripped with a fishing rod in one hand while walking on railroad tracks, my instinct was to roll. I have a witness even that it happened.
I have seen people do a front breakfall where they actually twisted their body such that if facing to the left, the left inner leg faced the ground. Looked very awkward to me.
Peace
Dennis
I've never done the front breakfall in judo either, Dennis. But in ju-jitsu one of the 'basic' attacks is ushiro ryu ashi dori i.e. someone grabs your legs from behind, pushes you forward whilst pulling the legs. Ain't no rollin' outta that one.
I've never done the front breakfall in judo either, Dennis. But in ju-jitsu one of the 'basic' attacks is ushiro ryu ashi dori i.e. someone grabs your legs from behind, pushes you forward whilst pulling the legs. Ain't no rollin' outta that one.
Don't let the sucka get behind you!:D
Peace
Dennis
Musubi Dojo
02-06-2007, 15:42
Don't let the sucka get behind you!:D
Peace
Dennis
or sit on him. :D
A couple of other instances where this type of ukemi could have been useful (provided your arms are free in the following situations):
Wrestling: http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=218346
Riding a bike: http://www.break.com/index/face_plant_into_picnic_table.html
Figure-skating: http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=208562
Taking a sobriety test: http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=194004
Jarvis C. Kolen
02-07-2007, 16:17
Defined: I was taught to do Mae Ukemi both ways...I was taught to keep my head straight forward when I initially started Jujitsu and then as I progressed my instructor started to have me turn my head.
He was never condescending to me as I had previous Ukemi training(Judo, Wrestling and Kenpo Karate), but he did refine my Ukemi. I found out very quickly that the Ukemi used for a traditional or non traditional form of Jujitsu is more, let's say demanding of the Uke. :-)
The primary reason I was given and I follow it to this day for turning your head is the obvious fact that you don't want your teeth smashed out and your nose broken.
Now one of my Aikijujutsu buddies in the Northern part of the state where I currently live teaches his students to keep the head straight on. Then again a guy that I knew that taught a Weeping Willow Jujitsu taught his students to ALWAYS, from the minute they stepped in his dojo to turn your head.
I have seen it differently at dojo even of the same system all over. My advice would be to visit with your sensei and get them to help you with any initial question you have on the reasoning for the standard of Ukemi in your dojo.
Brian Dugger
02-08-2007, 09:39
. . .The primary reason I was given and I follow it to this day for turning your head is the obvious fact that you don't want your teeth smashed out and your nose broken.
Agreed!
. . . Now one of my Aikijujutsu buddies in the Northern part of the state where I currently live teaches his students to keep the head straight on. Then again a guy that I knew that taught a Weeping Willow Jujitsu taught his students to ALWAYS, from the minute they stepped in his dojo to turn your head. . .
I know the later, but who is the former?
Jarvis C. Kolen
02-08-2007, 17:11
Brian Dugger: How are you, my friend? I hope this finds you doing well and enjoying your training. To answer your question the latter is James Wadley and the former is Phil Pack(lives right outside of Calico Rock, AR). Phil teaches Aikijujutsu(his spelling)and some form of karate. Very pleasant gentleman with a tremendous amount of skill.
Jarvis C. Kolen
02-09-2007, 22:58
One thing that is fact and everyone seems to agree on it and that is when Ukemi is done wrong, there can be more harm than good done.
Hello again,
Thanks everyone for your helpful replies. I am definitely more confident than before although I know I can improve more with practise and a few pushups.
A few other questions though...
Many people here have said that when doing a front breakfall they 'slap' the ground. I understand in terms of say, a side breakfall where you can slap hard and on certain throws get a good backswing going on as well. Back you can't really get a backswing when doing a front breakfall, as you chest is in the way. So, to you actively slap the ground, or is it a matter of placing your hands in front of you so that when the contact the ground, they touch flat and hence spread the force?
Next one...would you say it is better to touch the whole inside of the forearm to the floor at the same time, or touch the palm of the hand (or the whole hand) and the touch the rest of the arm and elbow to the floor when you come closer to the ground?
Thanks again for your help.
James O'Neill
02-10-2007, 05:58
...Dude, if you put the palms down first you risk breaking your wrists :eek: .
I was taught to slap the ground with the meaty part of the forearms first, the part closest to the elbow - palms hit last. This sheds or 'shucks' the force - just like you would use the whole arm for a sidefall. This is just spread over a smaller area but the idea is exactly the same.
Danielle --- I just spent a whole weekend getting my feet cut out from under me with cane/stick and judo techniques -- must've taken at least 100 front breakfalls (not counting warm-ups during which I'm not being forced to fall by a tori). Of those, I'd say I was able to turn my head to one side on 95% of them (I was taught to turn my head). About 20% of those falls were hard and fast enough that if I hadn't turned my head, I might've smashed my nose, chin or forehead into the back of my hands or the mat if I'd stayed facing straight ahead. Because of the leverage used in the techniques, I was flying to the mat head first, feet trailing, on pretty much all of these falls, and a number of times, my hands hit first -- a split second before my forearms landed. I'd never thought about whether or not the hands or forearms hit the ground first (this thread made me conscious of this over the weekend), but I now have better appreciation for why Tony U. mentioned that he practices a version of the fall in which hands hit first. While I strive to land my hands and forearms simultaneously (like the skids or pontoons of a helicopter), and am comfortable doing so in practice, it was interesting to discover that when thrown effectively face first, I've developed a knack for allowing the impact to roll from the hands to the forearms as I hit the ground. This requires relaxation of the hands and arms, and the reflexive ability to get your limbs in position under you for optimal deceleration and minimization of stress on your joints.
In the end, I'd say that in the same way you write "A" and I may write "A", it's still an "A". I think from everyone's input, you'll discover in time which is the ideal version of this breakfall for you, given your body and the style of martial arts you study.
Musubi Dojo
02-12-2007, 13:50
...Dude, if you put the palms down first you risk breaking your wrists :eek: .
I was taught that the hands hit first as well, but not so that you actually see it. It's a fraction of a second. Sticking your arms out straight and landing on your palms will break your wrists in a hurry though....:wink2:
Nice to hear theory being put into practice Mert!! Sounds like fun. Glad it wasn't me. :D
Cheers
c
I was taught that the hands hit first as well, but not so that you actually see it. It's a fraction of a second. Sticking your arms out straight and landing on your palms will break your wrists in a hurry though....:wink2:
Nice to hear theory being put into practice Mert!! Sounds like fun. Glad it wasn't me. :D
Chris --- If we ever bring the evil canes up to Canada, I'll let you know!
Danielle --- Once you're reasonably comfortable with your front breakfalls, you could have a fellow student stand behind you and lunge to the rear, pulling the rear cuffs of your dogi pants straight back (not upward towards tori's shoulders, but backward parallel to the mat) to simulate a shearing or reaping attack to the front of the legs that would put you into a front breakfall.
On the point of turning the head to the side. My sensei always stressed this becuase by turning the head to the side the turn restricts the neck vertebra from moving forward and so stops the head hitting the ground. I have found that if you tense your neck as you hit that too stops a flat face.
Turning your head to the side on a back fall, either flat or roll, will prevent your head wipping back onto the ground for the same reason as above.
I always strike the ground with my whole forearm and hand at the same time. Hitting one part before the rest means that the force of the fall is absorbed on the first part to contact making it harder on that part of the arm and the body as a whole. Spread the force over as big an area as you can as quickly as you can.
Brian Dugger
02-13-2007, 08:05
. . . Spread the force over as big an area as you can as quickly as you can.
This is the absolute key in any ukemi. Sometimes explaining applied physics to some folks can be difficult. The kinetic energy must dissapate into and away from the object or the object will have to absorb the energy. Structure will be seriously compromised and disrupted, if not. We've just been discussing broken bones, there can also be damage to internal organs that are not so obvious. Those kind of structures are a little more difficult to repair than setting a fracture or joint.:fear:
Musubi Dojo
02-13-2007, 08:13
Turning your head to the side on a back fall, either flat or roll, will prevent your head wipping back onto the ground for the same reason as above.
This is interesting I'll have to try it.
Brian Dugger
02-13-2007, 09:50
Turning your head to the side on a back fall, either flat or roll, will prevent your head wipping back onto the ground for the same reason as above. . .
We've always tucked the chin for the backfall and "turned" the head (really place ear to opposite shoulder for the roll) during back rolls. Slapping with the same side as the tucked leg and going over the opposite shoulder.
Musubi Dojo
02-13-2007, 13:23
We've always tucked the chin for the backfall and "turned" the head (really place ear to opposite shoulder for the roll) during back rolls. Slapping with the same side as the tucked leg and going over the opposite shoulder.
Me too.
Keikai, when you turn your head to the side on a back breakfall do you end up landing more on the one side?
Me too.
Keikai, when you turn your head to the side on a back breakfall do you end up landing more on the one side?
Originally Posted by Brian Dugger
We've always tucked the chin for the backfall and "turned" the head (really place ear to opposite shoulder for the roll) during back rolls.
The post above by Brian is a better description of what I was refering to. Tuck the chin in and look towards the shoulder. The turn limits the backwards and forwards motion of the neck joints. Turning the head towards the shoulder you want to do a backwards roll over sets up the roll perfectly. Just turnig the head will not turn you more to one side. It is the head and not the shoulder that turns.
We also use a sideways roll which is in reality a sideways flat fall then a turn onto the back and then a backwards roll. For the backwards roll part you have to look and roll over the opposite shoulder to the side you start the fall on. The trick is to also not stop in the middle, it has to be one smooth movement.
Musubi Dojo
02-14-2007, 08:30
Oh...I get it. You're setting up the back roll as you go.
Cheers
c
Brian Dugger
02-14-2007, 13:34
Oh...I get it. You're setting up the back roll as you go.
Cheers
c
Yeah, setting up and sitting up--helps with the 'zanshin' thing. This way one is always ready to go.:up:
Learning the back roll correctly i.e turning your head to the side is also a good skill for grappling, such as getting stacked in the guard ( aka bjj etc) to prevent bad things happening to your neck.
I liked the shuto front breakfall... reminds me of a Kung-fu school that taught front break fall as essentially as you hit the ground at high speed reach out with your hands and essentailly do a press-up... mmmmm
Webmaster
02-15-2007, 06:09
I liked the shuto front breakfall... reminds me of a Kung-fu school that taught front break fall as essentially as you hit the ground at high speed reach out with your hands and essentailly do a press-up... mmmmm
Except that it's wrong and it has already been discussed in this thread. Besides, it won't help you impress the girls. :rolleyes:
I know it's wrong that whats makes it so amusing..
Except that it's wrong ....
It's not wrong. It's a highly efficient way to break the bones in your hands! :wink2:
Webmaster
02-15-2007, 22:41
It's not wrong. It's a highly efficient way to break the bones in your hands! :wink2:
I guess that's one way to put it. :p
Good advice about breakfalls just like to add when your being thrown not to tense up because it will hurt more.
Good advice about breakfalls just like to add when your being thrown not to tense up because it will hurt more.
Indeed, being relaxed is important.
Brian Dugger
03-31-2007, 03:48
Indeed, being relaxed is important.
Funny, I thought being "lazy" was the important principle of every moment.
Ellis Amdur
04-01-2007, 22:25
Just spotted this thread. Semi-random thoughts.
1. If taking a roll or break-fall, of course, you should be turning the head as far as it can go, trying to look at the attacker, basically. You turn the head so far you roll over the shoulder blade and small of back, not even contacting the shoulder joint.
2. Turning the head on a front fall, with a two hand/forearm and ball-of-feet "impact." - if you turn your head, you twist your muscles, in your neck, of course, and back. You fall a little skewed. My belief is that you can take less impact, because the muscles of the body are not symmetrically lined up. Minor point, but would conceivably be relevant, particularly for those with any rotator cuff weakness. But I just dropped down on the hotel floor where I'm at both ways, and don't see THAT much difference. I will say that I've never come even close to having my nose/face hit on such a front fall, even when tackled from behind.
3. If you really get piled, I'd rather have the bad option of a face-plant than a side-of-head impact. The neck is far less strong (I got stacked side-ways one-time grappling and came very near to a broken neck). On the other hand, on a tackle, I and others I've worked out with NATURALLY turn the head as we are trying to turn towards the attacker as we are falling. We end up tucking the arms and hitting the meat of the arm/shoulder, already half-way into a guard, or at least, a face-up pin. On a takedown from behind, the classic frontfall would be a mark of total failure.
4. BUT - the larger issue. For me, the double arm front fall is a TRAINING exercise, (except for that double leg take-down from behind). I use it to prepare for a SINGLE ARM front fall when the other arm is locked or tied up and you are, for whatever reason, going down too fast or at the wrong angle to immediately roll-over the free shoulder (which you should be able to do most of the time). In this case, of course, you turn the head away from the slapping arm towards the attacker - turning into him leads to possible counters, and takes some pressure off and also sets up rolling out.
That's my thinking, anyway.
Best
. . . 4. BUT - the larger issue. For me, the double arm front fall is a TRAINING exercise, (except for that double leg take-down from behind). I use it to prepare for a SINGLE ARM front fall when the other arm is locked or tied up and you are, for whatever reason, going down too fast or at the wrong angle to immediately roll-over the free shoulder (which you should be able to do most of the time). In this case, of course, you turn the head away from the slapping arm towards the attacker - turning into him leads to possible counters, and takes some pressure off and also sets up rolling out. . . .
Works for me too, especially since I've found if you're uke in self-defense drills you don't always have the luxury of falling with your frame/shoulders/hips exactly parallel to the ground (i.e. one arm, even if both are available, may make hit the ground/mat first).
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