Tossed my first student

[Peter Rehse]

Well after four years running a dojo in Japan and two years in Canada I finally had to toss a student out. Very strange for me because usually those who don't fit eventually drift off but in this case, although that might have happened, I wanted him out now. Oh he resigned by himself but I demanded he formally appologize to my assistant (a Japanese sandan) if he wanted to train. I knew that wouldn't happen.

Up to this point my most difficult cases have been non-Japanese some of who have a wee bit of trouble adjusting to dojo structure. Perhaps I am more tolerant of people who are not expected to culturally understand but in this case .....

Budo without rei is just violence.

[Dennis Monk]

And here I am reading the title thinking, "Duh, the man does aikido, big deal. You should be tossing people all the time."
:laugh:

[Jon_Bahey]

HAHA, dennis thats what i first thought when I read the title. Well peter I dont think a congradulations is in order but sometimes people do not just fit in well and you have to give them the old toss-er-oo.

[Peter Rehse]

Call it creative titling. :laugh:

I'm still of two minds.

Physically he was big and very strong but moved well for a beginner - good for the dojo.

However, 8 lessons in he was already making loud demands on how people should be behaving and who he was going to train with.

In ancy case my loyalty are to people who have put in the time and I saw it getting worse not better. I know it happens but it is still the first time.

[Xuzen]

Well after four years running a dojo in Japan and two years in Canada I finally had to toss a student out. Very strange for me because usually those who don't fit eventually drift off but in this case, although that might have happened, I wanted him out now. Oh he resigned by himself but I demanded he formally appologize to my assistant (a Japanese sandan) if he wanted to train. I knew that wouldn't happen.

Up to this point my most difficult cases have been non-Japanese some of who have a wee bit of trouble adjusting to dojo structure. Perhaps I am more tolerant of people who are not expected to culturally understand but in this case .....

Budo without rei is just violence.

So Peter,

The student walked out; you did not Toss him out, right? Meh, I would expect more from a ShodoThug..:D j/k.

Anyway, I hope everything is well. Take care.

Boon

[Brian Dugger]

. . . Budo without rei is just violence.
Curt, but volumes are spoken in that statement. It really is disappointing as well as depressing having to excuse/remove a student. As teachers we know that is not what we're supposed to be doing, but logic/math--strategy if you will, dictates that the preservation of the whole sometimes supercedes certain protocol. I'm sorry. I know this will be on your mind for awhile.

[Mark Barlow]

In ancy case my loyalty are to people who have put in the time and I saw it getting worse not better. I know it happens but it is still the first time.

I think you did the right thing. Making concessions for ill-behaved beginners is a slap in the face to students who have followed protocol and advanced in the normal fashion.

It's a tough decision but kudos for doing what needed to be done.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think you did the right thing. Making concessions for ill-behaved beginners is a slap in the face to students who have followed protocol and advanced in the normal fashion.

It's a tough decision but kudos for doing what needed to be done.

Ditto to what Mark said. Sometimes you just have very little choice in the matter. Sounds like you found a great way to make it work.

[Musubi Dojo]

What Mark and Brian said.

Good for you Peter, not an easy call to make.

c

[Jaclyn]

However, 8 lessons in he was already making loud demands on how people should be behaving and who he was going to train with.

Just out of curiosity, how many chances did you give him to change his behaviour before tossing him? :) Was he all talk ("making loud demands") or was he also putting other students in physical danger when he trained?

[Gordon Nore]

...Physically he was big and very strong but moved well for a beginner - good for the dojo.

However, 8 lessons in he was already making loud demands on how people should be behaving and who he was going to train with.

In any case my loyalty are to people who have put in the time and I saw it getting worse not better...

:bow: :bow: :bow:

[Mark Barlow]

Just out of curiosity, how many chances did you give him to change his behaviour before tossing him? :) Was he all talk ("making loud demands") or was he also putting other students in physical danger when he trained?

How many chances do you think he should have had? I'm usually willing to correct someone a few times for simple stuff but rude or disruptive behavior seldom gets more than one warning.

[James O'Neill]

I take martial arts practice too seriously to tolerate disrespetful behavior. A little "punchiness" I can take - especially if it is done with a smile. But disrespect? This is unacceptable.

[Peter Rehse]

Just out of curiosity, how many chances did you give him to change his behaviour before tossing him? :) Was he all talk ("making loud demands") or was he also putting other students in physical danger when he trained?
Actually quite a bit - both inside and outside a dojo. I've had difficult students before and managed to bring them around.

No physical danger in the obvious sense although I saw that developing. Physically dangerous is much more cut and dry - this wasn't.

[Jaclyn]

How many chances do you think he should have had?

I actually don't know... I was just wondering about the kind of behaviour that would be so bad the student would be kicked out.

[Jaclyn]

Actually quite a bit - both inside and outside a dojo. I've had difficult students before and managed to bring them around.

No physical danger in the obvious sense although I saw that developing. Physically dangerous is much more cut and dry - this wasn't.

I'm glad you did toss him... Other students shouldn't have to put up with disruptive behaviour, especially if the potential for physical danger was developing as well.

[Bestatwhathedoes]

I hate it when stuff like this happens. Would you consider the student you tossed out an adult or a child? In my school, we really don't deny membership to children unless they are too young/too immature. We ask their parents to wait a year or so before signing their child up for lessons in a case like that.

But if an adult acts that way, then we definitely ask them to leave. Of course this hardly ever happens. One teenager we had used to be horrible, he gave me such problems. But I'm satisfied to say that he's cleaned up and is now much more mature. He's even gained some of my trust :D: .

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Well after four years running a dojo in Japan and two years in Canada I finally had to toss a student out. Very strange for me because usually those who don't fit eventually drift off but in this case, although that might have happened, I wanted him out now. Oh he resigned by himself but I demanded he formally appologize to my assistant (a Japanese sandan) if he wanted to train. I knew that wouldn't happen.

Up to this point my most difficult cases have been non-Japanese some of who have a wee bit of trouble adjusting to dojo structure. Perhaps I am more tolerant of people who are not expected to culturally understand but in this case .....

Budo without rei is just violence.

Peter,

Out of interest, was he Japanese or was he a foreigner?

[jakmak52]

I can understand holding one or two, maybe even three black belts, but 4 and above makes me doubt their credibility, especially 3rd dahn and above. Come on, give us a break. They must have started at age three and are now int their 90's :eek:

[Eliz]

I can understand holding one or two, maybe even three black belts, but 4 and above makes me doubt their credibility, especially 3rd dahn and above. Come on, give us a break. They must have started at age three and are now int their 90's :eek:

:oops:

Jak, you made a duplicate post here from the thread in the Gen MA section - To Wear a Belt or Not. I think you pasted the wrong response here! :D

As to the OP, sorry it came down to that Peter. Never an easy choice, but I believe you made the right choice.

[jakmak52]

:oops:

Jak, you made a duplicate post here from the thread in the Gen MA section - To Wear a Belt or Not. I think you pasted the wrong response here! :D

As to the OP, sorry it came down to that Peter. Never an easy choice, but I believe you made the right choice.

Ooops is right, my bad, thanks Eliz :D

[Carl Long]

Mr. Rehse,

I usually give students like this two choices. They can exit the dojo vertically under their power or horizontaly under mine. All but one has chosen the former method. The guy that didn't was eventually re-comitted to the local psychiatric ward locally. You cannot risk the welfare of your students by keeping a liability around the dojo. Congratulations on having the courage to toss out a guy who probably thought his money was more important to you than your dojos integrity. Bravo.


C Long

[Mark Barlow]

Mr. Rehse,

I usually give students like this two choices. They can exit the dojo vertically under their power or horizontaly under mine. All but one has chosen the former method.

C Long

20 years ago, that's exactly the method I would have used. Nowadays, if they refuse to leave, I explain that once I've asked them to vacate the property and they refuse, they are now trespassing and I can have them arrested.

If they want to fight and I hurt them, thanks to today's courts, they'll probably end up owning everything I have or ever will have. It's just not worth it. If they attack me, that's different but even then, I'll go out of my way to do as little damage as possible.

[Peter Rehse]

Peter,

Out of interest, was he Japanese or was he a foreigner?

He was Japanese and developed problems with my Japanese assistant. The thing is I am handing over the dojo to my assistant in a couple of months - that sort of problem he doesn't need.

[Carl Long]

20 years ago, that's exactly the method I would have used.

That was 20 years ago :wink2: and he was attacking other members of the dojo with a drum stick at the time.

Those students that were there at the time usually make sure newbies hear the story before they get froggy. The way they usually inform them is that just because Sensei hasn't grabbed you by the neck and the crotch and thrown you out, doesn't mean he's forgotten how. That usually does the trick.

[Eliz]

We actually still use the, "Pain Train" method. GM will only take students on the Pain Train if he likes them. Newbies and people he doesn't like get taken on the train by his senior students. No liability - it was just an accident.

Edit: To Peter. As you are turning over the dojo, what will you do?

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

He was Japanese and developed problems with my Japanese assistant. The thing is I am handing over the dojo to my assistant in a couple of months - that sort of problem he doesn't need.

Peter,

Out of interest, was age and experience a factor in these particular problems that had developed? (i.e. "Old sweat sees that younger sempai will be succeeding the dojocho & gets the hump" kind of scenario.)

[Erik]

Hi Peter,

Just wondering - how did you approach him? What did you say to him?

[Peter Rehse]

Peter,

Out of interest, was age and experience a factor in these particular problems that had developed? (i.e. "Old sweat sees that younger sempai will be succeeding the dojocho & gets the hump" kind of scenario.)

Not really - I mean think about it the guy had come a total of 8 times the other (about the same age) was well beyond that (Honbu sandan and ex-team captain and a current coach of one of the strongest competitive teams in the country) and besides at the time my plans were a bit secret (read unsure). Mind you both are above 30 so not too young and pliable.

I think the core of the problem was someone wanting to do aikido but with very strong ideas on how HE should be taught. Shodokan system can be very difficult in the first three months for some people as there are a lot of drills to get your head around. Entering with a full cup and all that. Others have had the same problems and frustrations - some have developed difficulties with me or my assistant - but they get past that or leave. No one has been as rude as this guy though.

[Peter Rehse]

Hi Peter,

Just wondering - how did you approach him? What did you say to him?
Well actually he exchanged a flurry of e-mails with another of my students. You know if it hadn't been for the e-mails and was just the one evening it wouldn't have been a problem.

The other student tried explaining the system, the idea behind budo, etc. and all he got back was a demand for an apology from my assistant. From what I know the exact opposite was necessary and I conveyed that through the student.

A direct apporach would not have worked because of language difficulties - I'm not up to it.

[Jeff C.]

Peter, I am sorry you had to go through this, but I am very heartened to see a sensei expressing loyalty to his students. It seems rare in the Western dojo these days. Loyalty is a two-way street, and good leaders remember that.

Jeff Cook

[Peter Rehse]

Edit: To Peter. As you are turning over the dojo, what will you do?
Project here is ending and the next possible one is nearer to Tokyo. I may just become a student again as the guy who was my teacher's deshi while I was going through my kyu grades is there. He is now 6th Dan and besides being very good at Aikido is some one I get along with very well.

I may have a less ambitious club also or try something different or more Judo. Move first than decide.

[Eliz]

Project here is ending and the next possible one is nearer to Tokyo. I may just become a student again as the guy who was my teacher's deshi while I was going through my kyu grades is there. He is now 6th Dan and besides being very good at Aikido is some one I get along with very well.

I may have a less ambitious club also or try something different or more Judo. Move first than decide.

Try ballet or hiphop. KIDDING!!! :laugh: (Although I do like ballet)

Best of luck to you. I hope you find something when you get settled in. :)