View Full Version : No beef anymore
I recently discovered that the book "Shorinji Kempo..." by Kaiso was availabe in the library of Berlin and so I ordered it. After weeks of waiting for the delivery I had to realize that it isn`t in the stock anymore since may. But then I found it on amazon.co.jp and ordered an exemplar which should arrive on my birthday. I was very excited...
But unexpected they sent me an e-mail (after complaining that I was already waiting for weeks ) that it is suddenly unavailable... I am really pissed of ! :mad: :cry: :hot:
But then I found it on amazon.co.jp and ordered an exemplar which should arrive on my birthday. I was very excited...
But unexpected they sent me an e-mail (after complaining that I was already waiting for weeks ) that it is suddenly unavailable... I am really pissed of ! :mad: :cry: :hot:
Wasn't that definate, since the book is selled at ebay for horrendous charges?:spank:
AllanJGAnderson
02-20-2007, 21:15
How does this have anything to do with beef, or a lacking of beef?
How does this have anything to do with beef, or a lacking of beef?
my quoestion exactly ...
maybe some weird vegetarian humor? :eek: *duck and hide*
I don't exactly where the naturalised nick name of this book derived from, I think it has something to do with a thread of Heather, which was called `where is the beef`... :confused:
wildwills
02-21-2007, 09:07
How does this have anything to do with beef, or a lacking of beef?
Which begs the question, "Where's the Beef"? -- Newcleus, Jam On Revenge , c. 1984.
Which begs the question, "Where's the Beef"? -- Newcleus, Jam On Revenge , c. 1984.
Wans't it "Where`s The Beat?" ? :rolleyes:
wildwills
02-21-2007, 10:47
Wans't it "Where`s The Beat?" ? :rolleyes:
Yes, you are correct. I purposely misquoted it with reference to the famous 80's Wendy's commercial to see if anyone else ever listened to Newcleus or was old enough to remember break dancing....:laugh:
Tripitaka of AA
02-21-2007, 14:49
Am I suffering from late onset dyslexia?
I don't understand half of what is being said in this thread...
But do carry on, it is somewhat entertaining ;)
i got copies of this book from a friend. i think it isn't worth to be selled for a high amount of money.
i think it isn't worth to be selled for a high amount of money.
As far as I remember, last time when I saw the book (Shorinji Kempo- philosophy and techniques) to be selled on ebay, the start price was more than 200 british pounds! :dead:
As far as I remember, last time when I saw the book (Shorinji Kempo- philosophy and techniques) to be selled on ebay, the start price was more than 200 british pounds! :dead:
I paid 150 USD for mine and it was from a used book seller on Amazon and in superb condition. It's a good collector's item but I no longer refer to it as technical content is not that complete. I do however recommend the two volumes written in Spanish by Rogelio Casero Abellan as they are incredibly well rounded and informative and also the French book Decouvir le Shorinji Kempo as it contains very well detailed illustrations and really does not require one to be proficient in French.
Tripitaka of AA
02-22-2007, 06:12
Raul, you are clearly a Serious Collector... and a polyglot too!:)
i think it isn't worth to be selled for a high amount of money.
I think so too, but on amazon it was selled for about 40 US dollars..Or better said, it wasn`t :o .
The point that made me angry was, that they didn`t say it is unavailable from the beginning, instead they sent a few e-mails, that the day of delivery will be delayed and they also raised the price on amazon after the order.
There seems to be mystic disappearance regarding this book ... does there work a Shorinji Kempo intelligence service???:cool:
Raul, you are clearly a Serious Collector... and a polyglot too!:)
Photos soon to follow
I think so too, but on amazon it was selled for about 40 US dollars..Or better said, it wasn`t :o .
The point that made me angry was, that they didn`t say it is unavailable from the beginning, instead they sent a few e-mails, that the day of delivery will be delayed and they also raised the price on amazon after the order.
Hey Nina, have a look at this (http://cgi.ebay.com/Karate-Book-Shorinji-Kempo-Philosophy-Techniques_W0QQitemZ110094785467QQihZ001QQcategory Z280QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem).
Hey Nina, have a look at this (http://cgi.ebay.com/Karate-Book-Shorinji-Kempo-Philosophy-Techniques_W0QQitemZ110094785467QQihZ001QQcategory Z280QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem).
It's strange that one can't find it when searching world wide via ebay.de. :confused:
It's strange that one can't find it when searching world wide via ebay.de. :confused:
Here is another source (http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=305) although as you can see, it's highly expensive.
Here's some of the books I have collected so far. I think in total I have about 21 books related to Kempo (including 2 copies of "What is Shorinji Kempo") as well as numerous videos and magazine articles. I no longer can find my copy of "Deep Within Each Man" nor do I want it back.
Gassho
the longer out of print and harder to acquire the more wonderful books seem to get. Fueled by ever rising prices on auction and (used) book selling sites their fame rises ridiculously.
I now some examples from Go-books:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/487187043X/ref=dp_olp_0/105-5424897-0731605?ie=UTF8&condition=all
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/002-2565487-5804812?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Strategic+Concepts+of+Go&Go.x=15&Go.y=12
:(
Why doesn`t anybody (Hombu?) reprint certain Shorinji books from Kaiso?
Is there still a copyright on these books?
Colin Linz
02-23-2007, 17:14
To be honest, I think Hombu are a bit paranoid about missrepresentations in translations and about the lack of capacity of non Japanese to understand Kaiso's philosophies and lectures. One of my teachers (Todoroki sensei) would often comment that Kaiso's teachings were hard for even Japanese to understand, this implied to me that he thought they would be even harder for us.
David Dunn
02-23-2007, 19:20
To be honest, I think Hombu are a bit paranoid about missrepresentations in translations and about the lack of capacity of non Japanese to understand Kaiso's philosophies and lectures. One of my teachers (Todoroki sensei) would often comment that Kaiso's teachings were hard for even Japanese to understand, this implied to me that he thought they would be even harder for us.
I've heard this line from many people over many years. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny in my opinion. Could someone produce a body of thought that is so complex and difficult to understand for everyone but a particular nationality? No. What I think it really means is that Doshin So produced a body of thought that is so challenging and critical of his own society. Is that hard for others to understand?
Asked to define religion, perhaps no one would be able to give you an immediate reply.The reason for this is that there is a very wide range of religions on offer in our country today, and it has become difficult to distinguish between religion and superstition. So much so, that giving a simple definition is impossible. Moreover, unfortunately, our people have traditionally held polytheistic beliefs. We have a long history of being indoctrinated with ideas such as that this was a sacred land, home to eight million gods: gods whom we have then been forced to worship. Therefore, without understanding either the meaning or obtaining a real underrstanding of the true nature of god, we have acquired the habit of worshipping icons claimed to be divine, performing ritual, and praying for divine protection. Thus, believing man's fortune, ill or good, to be wholly decided by the gods, we have come to put all our trust in prayer. That is why, during the war, starting with the emperor, the whole nation headed for shrines throughout the entire country. There, they were to perform extensive rituals carrying their prayers for the enemy to be destroyed by divine wrath. However, unfortunately, it would appear that Japan's eight million gods failed to answer the people's earnest prayers. In spite of this sad fact, even now, today, as we enter the second-half of the twentieth century, with its moon rockets and satellites circling the earth, it would appear that Japan is still unable to extricate itself from this primitive perception of religion. Even on occasions such as the opening ceremony of a Shinkansen line or at the switching on-line ceremony for a nuclear reactor, we find the government organising rites of exorcism to be performed on our behalf by some senior Shinto priest. This they do, claiming to be offering prayers to the gods for the safety of these projects. Expensive foreign cars for government use are adorned with protective charms provided by shrines or Buddhist temples. Perhaps it is only to be expected, then, that ordinary people should be led astray by dubious characters claiming to be living gods or Buddhas.
To be honest, I think Hombu are a bit paranoid about missrepresentations in translations and about the lack of capacity of non Japanese to understand Kaiso's philosophies and lectures. One of my teachers (Todoroki sensei) would often comment that Kaiso's teachings were hard for even Japanese to understand, this implied to me that he thought they would be even harder for us.
But how can we "try to live" the philosophy if we even don`t understand it?
What I think it really means is that Doshin So produced a body of thought that is so challenging and critical of his own society. Is that hard for others to understand?
So you think that this attitude evolved after Kaiso was already dead?
Colin Linz
02-24-2007, 00:06
David,
I would have to agree completely with you. I always found the notion that I was in someway incapable of empathy and understanding what triggered Kaiso's thoughts as a little patronizing. Further to this I don't think that there are any cultural barriers to understanding the values of his lessons.
I think that Hombu has been burned in the past by non kenshi writing their interpenetration of our philosophies and criticising Kaiso. There have also been some documentaries that seem to have had problems in understanding the message that various sensei were trying to deliver to them for whatever reason.
I do feel that the best way to deal with these is by open discussion, not hiding away from it.
Colin Linz
02-24-2007, 00:11
But how can we "try to live" the philosophy if we even don`t understand it?
Or for that matter even get hold of comprehensive texts on the subject matter.
Tripitaka of AA
02-24-2007, 04:36
When I was training (think Steam trains and top hats), we had a lot less written material in English and I often wonder how that affected the transmission of the non-technical training. I feel like the character in "Life of Brian", who is hanging on the dungeon walls berating Brian for being a "lucky bars****"...
That extract that David quoted makes me feel even more jealous than usual. I'd love to have had more access to such material. We didn't have a tokuhon, just a photocopied list of names.
Kids today :rolleyes: , they don't know they're born :laugh:
So you think that this attitude evolved after Kaiso was already dead?
Otherwise the book hadn't been published in other languages than japanese.?
Colin Linz
02-24-2007, 16:22
When I was training (think Steam trains and top hats), we had a lot less written material in English and I often wonder how that affected the transmission of the non-technical training. I feel like the character in "Life of Brian", who is hanging on the dungeon walls berating Brian for being a "lucky bars****"...
That extract that David quoted makes me feel even more jealous than usual. I'd love to have had more access to such material. We didn't have a tokuhon, just a photocopied list of names.
Kids today :rolleyes: , they don't know they're born :laugh:
I don't think things have changed greatly when it comes to official English material. Technically we have a translation of two of the three newer training manuals Goho, juho1 and Juho2 The Tokuhon has a reduction of material to the old Fukudokuhon. The passage David Dun quoted comes from the Kyohan, of which there is still no official translation. When it comes to philosophy there is still not very much English texts. As for the religious side, it was my impression from a meeting with So sensei and some other WSKO instructors that the religious side was not for us. Further to this they seemed very puzzled as to why we would want to learn it.
Colin Linz
02-24-2007, 16:38
Otherwise the book hadn't been published in other languages than japanese.?
When I examine the growth of Shorinji Kempo it appears to me that Kaiso was very proactive in fostering its growth. He appeared on TV promoting Shorinji Kempo, he advised on fight choreography for movies. In Aosaka's interview on the WSKO web site he tells of how he would return to Japan every so often and Kaiso would make announcements in recognition of Aosaka's work in establishing branches. The telling part here is that he always inflated Aosaka's achievements, thereby encouraging Aosaka to go back and establish more branches. This is vastly different to WSKO's highly conservative policies on Branch establishment. Just for the record, I don't think that WSKO's policy is particularly bad, there can be very good reasons for being careful. Although I would have liked to have seen a few more than one new branch established in the 19 years I have practised Shorinji Kempo in Australia.
Hey Nina, have a look at this (http://cgi.ebay.com/Karate-Book-Shorinji-Kempo-Philosophy-Techniques_W0QQitemZ110094785467QQihZ001QQcategory Z280QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem).
So, it went away to Canada for US $123.50! ;)
David Dunn
02-25-2007, 17:24
That passage is from a translation that is not official, and hence has no warranty to accuracy etc.
David, the amount of Doshin So's work available in English is now probably less than when you were training. The "What is Shorinji Kempo" or "Shorinji Kempo: Techniques and Philosophy" books are now rare and expensive. In the early 1980s the WSKO Gassho newsletter had plenty of stuff. Now we have exactly nothing directly from Doshin So. Tokuhon is, as Colin says, an even more abridged version of Fukudokuhon.
So, it went away to Canada for US $123.50! ;)
I'm sure it went to a loving home
Does anyone know, if the book Shorinji Kempo- Philosophy and Techniques exists only in english and japanese?
David Dunn
02-27-2007, 18:29
Nadine,
I think that the book and the abridged version "What is Shorinji Kempo" were specifically penned by Kaiso for Americans and Europeans - I don't think that there is a Japanese version. The classic text by Doshin So in Japanese is "Hiden Shorinji Kempo", (Secrets of Shorinji Kempo) which was written in the early 1960s. I have a copy, and it's about as much use as a chocolate teapot to me (given my understanding of Japanese). Of course there is Shorinji Kempo Kyohan, which might well appear in English one day.
Does anyone know, if the book Shorinji Kempo- Philosophy and Techniques exists only in english and japanese?
If you go back to the photos I posted and look at the first image, you will see two smaller books on the right. The one in the middle is "What is Shorinji Kempo?" which is the abridge copy of "Shorinji Kempo - Philosophy and Techniques." The green and white book on the far right is the same abridge version but written in Italian. Therefore I have to assume that the Philosophy and Techniques book you seek has to be available in other languages.
Keep hope alive
Therefore I have to assume that the Philosophy and Techniques book you seek has to be available in other languages.
Keep hope alive
I just wondered, because I have only seen the 'What is Shorinji Kempo' book in other languages...
Does anyone know who the people out of the book are?
David Dunn
03-29-2007, 13:02
Does anyone know who the people out of the book are?
One of them is Nakano Sensei (the person performing the nage on the front cover). He has been teaching in Saitama for many years and married one of Doshin So's daughters.
Does anyone know who the people out of the book are?
nadine, you can find the names of the models in the preface. i think i remember to have heard that one of the models was one of doshin so's bodyguards.
Gary Dolce
03-30-2007, 08:22
The story I heard about the two books ("Shorinji Kempo - Techniques and Philosophy" and "What is Shorinji Kempo") was that they were initiated by students at the International Christian University in Tokyo as a project to introduce Shorinji Kempo to the rest of the world. They took the idea to Kaiso, who supported it and provided the introductory text. The models are instructors and students at the university, hence the "ICU" under the manji on the munasho. If that story about the origins of the book is true, it is interesting that Kaiso supported this kind of "grassroots" project, rather than directing that it be done by Hombu instead.
Kari Mäki-Kuutti
03-31-2007, 08:32
If that story about the origins of the book is true, it is interesting that Kaiso supported this kind of "grassroots" project, rather than directing that it be done by Hombu instead.
There was probably no-one at Hombu with enough English language skills for this kind of project.
Gary Dolce
03-31-2007, 15:36
There was probably no-one at Hombu with enough English language skills for this kind of project.
I am sure that you are right, but I still find it interesting that the pictures are not of Hombu instructors and staff, but instead instructors and students from a university branch. Hombu could have supplied the pictures to go with the translated text, but did not.
But who is the author of this book? Doshin So - or did he give only his name? Did he write the book in japanese and the ICU-Kenshi translated it? And for the case that Doshin So hadn't written the book by himself, I would suppose that he at least reviewed it (so that we can find there the "original" teachings of Doshin So and that he did take care of the accuracy), did he?
I thought it doesn`t exist in japanese? :confused:
http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=24309&cat=&page=1
Gary Dolce
04-02-2007, 09:20
But who is the author of this book? Doshin So - or did he give only his name? Did he write the book in japanese and the ICU-Kenshi translated it? And for the case that Doshin So hadn't written the book by himself, I would suppose that he at least reviewed it (so that we can find there the "original" teachings of Doshin So and that he did take care of the accuracy), did he?
My earlier comments were not as clear as they should have have been and I think they have been misunderstood. I do not doubt that Kaiso was the author of the text of the books - I have never heard anything to the contrary. My comment was on the story I have heard about the genesis of the book - that the idea for a book about Shorinji Kempo directed at foreigners came from Kenshi at a university Branch, which Kaiso supported - and on the fact that those university Kenshi were the models for the technical part of the book, rather than relying on Hombu staff. I think it says something important about Kaiso's leadership style.
I didn't post because of your post. My questions arised, because I have read somewhere that some things shall be incorrect in "Shorinji Kempo - Philosophy and Techniques" and/or in "What is Shorinji Kempo". Is this right?
Does anyone know that book?
http://www.lulu.com/browse/book_view.php?fCID=606258
Does anyone know that book?
http://www.lulu.com/browse/book_view.php?fCID=606258
The copyright is 2007 so it's a fairly new book. Anyone know who Stefany Fairbanks is as she appears to be a kenshi and left a somewhat uninformative review?
The book is self-published and there is no ISBN number that I can locate. Makes me wonder if this is somebody who is outside of WSKO.
Tripitaka of AA
04-24-2007, 17:05
Google search comes up with a "JR Maroney" who is keen on Japanese language in Virginia... anyone that sounds familiar?
Note that the title page says "JR Maroney Shorinji Kempo Assistant". Perhaps we are talking about a modest reference book/pamphlet from an enthusiastic Kenshi... rather than a budding "Soke" with a manifesto ;)
Google search comes up with a "JR Maroney" who is keen on Japanese language in Virginia... anyone that sounds familiar?
Note that the title page says "JR Maroney Shorinji Kempo Assistant". Perhaps we are talking about a modest reference book/pamphlet from an enthusiastic Kenshi... rather than a budding "Soke" with a manifesto ;)
I'll let you know when I get it next week :)
A related question: Is everyone allowed to write and publish a book about Shorinji Kempo? I thought there would be some problems with WSKO.
A related question: Is everyone allowed to write and publish a book about Shorinji Kempo? I thought there would be some problems with WSKO.
In this case, it is very questionable.
The book just arrived today and I want to review it carefully before I pass judgment but so far it I do have some serious concerns about this. More later.
A related question: Is everyone allowed to write and publish a book about Shorinji Kempo? I thought there would be some problems with WSKO.
I can´t imagine that they review a book and decide afterwards, but I am also curious in how far you can write about SK when you do not title the book like that?
I can´t imagine that they review a book and decide afterwards, but I am also curious in how far you can write about SK when you do not title the book like that?
Who can forbid?
Very quickly this book is nothing more than well compiled notes and suggestions for grading from 1rst Kyu to Shodan. Using the same format as our curriculum book, techniques are listed for each grading and briefly described for both offense and defense. All of our forms are described and easy to follow. There is even a brief but useful glossary of terms. These notes are comprehensive and I have to admit if Hombu was to reissue the yellow curriculum book, they should consider using this as their model. This book will not teach you Shorinji Kempo nor does it discuss its philosophy. In fact you will learn more by going to Kenseikai's Profound World of Shorinji Kempo than reading this. Mr Maroney obviously has skill in education and organization. I think he did an admirable job.
There are some photos but these are mostly limited to demonstrating stretching exercises. In fact the only photos that show any technique are Kihon related such as Kaisoku Chudan Gamae. One problem that I see with these photos are that are depicting the buddhist manji on the dogis.
It is obvious that JR Maroney is a kenshi and a highly enthusiastic one. He does state that he studied in Tokyo but there is no indication where nor his current rank which I found odd. He only lists himself as a Shorinji Kempo Assistant and does not talk about who he is. His intentions in publishing these notes are in esponse to the lack of available English language material on Shorinji Kempo. At the end of his forward, he give thanks to a a list of individuals who introduced him to Shorinji Kempo, which to me indicated how open he was. Interesting to note that he does recommend that students purchase the Fukudoku-Hon and that these notes were never intended to replace that text.
Overall, I liked his effort and wish him all the best.
Kari Mäki-Kuutti
05-02-2007, 04:51
Who can forbid?
If you a member of WSKO they can. In other words you need their permission or you will not be a member any more. And perhaps will be sued.
Permission might be possible, depending on what is planned.
Who can forbid?
Its my understanding that Shorinji Kempo is a registered trademark and they do try to protect it.
Doesn't look like the greatest guide - I can see spelling mistakes, mistranslations and I imagine there is more as you move through the book. Does it include a bio? (And what does the bio say?)
Its my understanding that Shorinji Kempo is a registered trademark and they do try to protect it.
Doesn't look like the greatest guide - I can see spelling mistakes, mistranslations and I imagine there is more as you move through the book. Does it include a bio? (And what does the bio say?)
There really is no bio in the book. In fact it's more of a pamphlet than a book but I have been in contact with him.
The author had lived in Tokyo where he originally learned Shorinji Kempo. He made these notes in order to help many of the foreign students who had a lot of trouble understanding the Japanese Sensei. He does not claim to be an instructor, just a kenshi who wanted to help his fellow kenshi. He currently resides in Knoxville, TN.
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