Seppuku

[sheb]

Do you know something about Seppuku/Harakiri? Is it developed from a kind of religion? What do you think about? How long was it a more or less usual thing?

[CEB]

No religous conection I am aware of. The story I read was the Minamoto Yorimasa, father of Minamoto Yoritomo (1st Shogun) began the practice after the Battle of Uji during the Gempai War when he was defeated by the Taira Clan. Yoritomo forced his brother (Yoshitstune) and Sister in Law to later do the same when his brother who was a kick *** warrior became a rivial to lead Japan. I have read different versions of the history as to the true nature of the rivialry. Seppuku was used as capital punishment in many situations. My guess is when the practice of seppuku became adopted by the Kamakura Shogunate that is when its place was set in Japanese society.

I don't think it was ever usual. In most cases you were probably a dead man anyway at least through seppuku in some situations you could hope to protect your surviving family members from further reprisals.

The Romans practiced the same type of suicidal punishment methods in the case of certain capital crimes. (The Greeks also)

This is just one aspect I am sure. Later it may have taken on more aspects.

[David Craik]

The only religious significance I can think of is the fact that the hara was thought to be the seat of the soul. In one instance of kanshi (seppuku performed to protest the decision of a superior), there was a bushi who pulled out his own innards and threw them at the feet of the master so that he could 'ascertain their purity'. I'd have to dig through my stuff to find the details.

I believe the first recorded instance of seppuku in battle was Minamoto no Yorimasa's in around 1180. So seppuku in it's various forms (junshi, kanshi, funshi, sokutsu-shi) has a long history and fairly common in the Sengoku and Edo periods. The most recent one was apparently Masaharu Nonaka in 1999...the gentleman was 'downsized' into retirement and offed himself samurai-style with a sushi knife.

*cross-posted with CEB*

[Nina]

Maybe a little bit off topic...but I read somewhere that the suicide rate in Japan is the highest compared to other industrial nations. So do you think it is connected to that or is it just accidental?

[David Craik]

An interesting question. I think the suicide rate in Japan is more closely linked in recent times to stress, an inordinate amount of pressure to succeed, perhaps a deeper sense of the shame of failure than we are used to in the West, and their '80s economic bubble bursting. Maybe the psychological link with respect to the notion of shame is similar to the motivation of many bushi who commited sokotsu-shi (seppuku due to shame or failure) however. You may be on to something, but I'm not a psychologist.

I feel there's a big difference, though, between the voluntary seppuku of antiquity with modern suicide - at least in many cases. Suicide today is mainly a way to escape personal despair or a fear of living, a coward's way of avoiding life's problems. Seppuku was not historically done for this purpose, nor would it be a good choice for the faint of heart - it is generally a horribly painful way to die.

Most of the modern ones like Mishima, the old fellow who chose to follow Emperor Meiji (the very guy who abolished the samurai class) into the great beyond at Takashima-jo in 1912, and the sushi knife guy were probably motivated by samurai romance and a sense of the dramatic. Or perhaps in the latter case because Japanese Railways sought the equivalent of $70,000 from the families of those who jumped in front of one of their trains to kill themselves in the late 90's. Delays mess up their clockwork schedule, outsourcing due to Indonesian microchips or cheaper Korean tires be damned. Like Tsunetomo, maybe Masaharu did not want to incur hardship on his family by shaking off the mortal coil by 'illegal' means.

[sheb]

I think the suicide rate in Japan is more closely linked in recent times to stress, an inordinate amount of pressure to succeed, perhaps a deeper sense of the shame of failure than we are used to in the West, and their '80s economic bubble bursting. I agree. As far as I heard in reports there is such a high rate, because of the need to be successful. ... and I think that Seppuku can't be compared with an "ordinary" (I'm sorry, but I don't know how to say it better.) suicide like David wrote.

[Nina]

I agree. As far as I heard in reports there is such a high rate, because of the need to be successful. ... and I think that Seppuku can't be compared with an "ordinary" (I'm sorry, but I don't know how to say it better.) suicide like David wrote.
Yes I also totally agree, but I wondered whether there could be something like a lower inhibition threshold of commiting suicide because of cultural influences...

[Grei]

I would not be surprised if there were a similar root between the two.

I would NOT say that they are in any way directly connected though.

[David Craik]

Although rather old, an interesting article WRT the subject:

http://www.atimes.com/japan-econ/AH04Dh01.html

[Nina]

Thanks for the article, sounds very scaring.

[sheb]

Yes I also totally agree, but I wondered whether there could be something like a lower inhibition threshold of commiting suicide because of cultural influences...Probably one can find some reason in the culture and possibly because of the "tradition" of Seppuku, but I think it has nothing to do with its origins, but more with a high pressure (like written in the article "from" David) and an easy way to escape. ... I know it sounds a little bit cynical.
I could imagine that Seppuku is not very "alive" in the mind of the people and has for this reason a less or no influence.

... just presumptions.

Probably there are some investigations already made regarding Seppuku and suicide nowadays.

[Shinken]

I would agree that there's a cultural difference with Japan and suicide, but I also think it plays a large part on the role of "duty," "responsibility," and "shame" in Japanese society.

The way they deal with those things seems to be a bit more different than here in America.

[Bushido Hurley]

Maybe a little bit off topic...but I read somewhere that the suicide rate in Japan is the highest compared to other industrial nations. So do you think it is connected to that or is it just accidental?


This is largley due to the fact that the japanese version of the SAT determines what you will do in life, and how successful you will be (they begin training for it at the age of like 5). They get 1 try and a lot do poorly. Although most choose razors and painkillers over seppuku.


But back on the topic of seppuku...

around the 15th century it was a way of dying honorably, and your lieutennant or close friend would remove your head after you'd done it so the enemy forces could not display it as a trophy.

Supposedly Some samurai were also told that if you could "slash" 7 times after the initial plunge, you would go into a higher tier of heaven (I'm not backing this up, this is what I heard and is subject to falsification).

For many samurai who's master had been slain, this was an appropriate option to regain their honor for not having died in battle with him.

I've also heard rumors that some kamikaze pilots committed seppuku with a wakizashi (samurai short sword) before crashing their planes. This might be more of a myth than fact.

[Jeff C.]

Are there any other methods of seppuku besides belly-cutting?

Jeff Cook

[Abbax8]

Take this with a grain of salt but worth researching more;

I saw a documentary that Seppuku is actually more recent than usually believed. It stems from the Code of Bushido which was actually written I have heard after most of the samuarai were no longer engaged in regular battles. It was a method of honorable death at a time when death on the battlefield was less likely to happen as battles had declined in frequency.

The documentary was on the History Channel so ...

Peace

Dennis

[Abbax8]

Females stab themselves in the throat I have heard, men slash the belly.

Peace

Dennis

[David Craik]

Yes, women normally cut their own throats or jugular, usually with a kaiken in a practice known as jigai. It was thought to be less disfiguring. Belly cutting was the norm for men as the hara was believed to be the seat of the soul. Incidentally women were apparently not required to show the stoicism expected of men, and would sometimes bind their feet together so that their legs would not splay upon death. Since they promptly bled to death, a kaishaku was not neccesary.

Bushido historically was not a written code. Interpretations of the proper conduct of a warrior differed from clan to clan, province to province, and age to age. Nitobe actually thought that he invented the term when he wrote 'Bushido: The Soul of Japan' in 1900. Seppuku wasn't particularly recent as it was forbidden without permission during the Tokugawa shogunate and thereafter. A samurai could have his assets seized and his family stripped of position and title if he committed seppuku on his own at this time. The practice of seppuku was well-documented during the Sengoku Jidai and before. Later on I have read that many samurai actually did little more than scratch their bellies, with the kaishaku doing most of the work by beheading them...the belly cutting had become more or less symbolic.

I don't remember the details of the first documented seppuku, I have it around here someplace. The guy slit open his belly, pulled out his intestines, and threw them at his lord's feet so that they could be examined for their 'purity' (of his soul and intention). Pretty hardcore stuff. :)

Seppuku was a specific act, not simply killing oneself by any means available. The suicide of Yukio Mishima is a good example of how the romanticism of this practice can go horribly wrong. Whatever you do, have a kaishaku that knows what they're doing.

[sheb]

Just out of interest: Why do you have such a detailed knowledge, David? Are you just interested in Japan and related things or is it perhaps because of your job?

[David Craik]

No, we don't have much belly-slitting going on at my job, though we may feel like it at times. Just have an interest in Japanese history and bushi in particular...sometimes digging unearths some unusual information.

[Nina]

This is largley due to the fact that the japanese version of the SAT determines what you will do in life, and how successful you will be (they begin training for it at the age of like 5). They get 1 try and a lot do poorly. Although most choose razors and painkillers over seppuku.

Sorry for going off topic again, but what does SAT mean?

[TonyU]

Scholastic Aptitude Test.
It's a test given here that's supposed determine what you strong educational points are. Also determines what colleges and universities you can apply to.

[Nina]

Ok, thanks.

[shinbushi]

This is largley due to the fact that the japanese version of the SAT determines what you will do in life, and how successful you will be (they begin training for it at the age of like 5). They get 1 try and a lot do poorly. Although most choose razors and painkillers over seppuku.

Actually you get one try per year. And with each year the schools that will accept you get smaller and smaller. Most give up after a year or 2. One guy at my old dojo in Japan was a 7 year Ronin (He failed 7 times).

On suicide, I think there are also higher rates in Japan because there never was the religious sigma associated like in Wester culture. The Catholic church influenced the early development of Europe with the commit suicide and go to Hell belief, and I think that left its mark on Western Civilization.

[KyoshiDen]

Hello All ,
Never thought this would be my first post here, Kind of morbid but ,ok.

Most do not realize That Ritual suicide was frowned upon and in fact ordered against in many instances. Though many think it was a Samurai's Right to die in this Fashion , it was not . Usually it was a Samurai that rebelled or disagreed with his superior that ended up this way .(As it was stated in another post) But for the most part it was not sanctioned or allowed, it was in fact just rebelious .

The Suicide rates of today are not because it is more acceptable in the Society , it is not as many have converted or accepted The Christian Faith . It is that from birth to death the culture places values and limits on the person that drive that person to be better than they were before , sometimes if they realize a Plateau that seems impossible to pass they realize weakness for the first time, the strong minded probe for every possiblity to get past the obstacle , the weak accept they are failures and dwell on it until they can no longer live with themselves .

[De_Franza]

:rip: Seppuku ....

http://www.realultimatepower.net/ninja/seppuku.htm

:stirthepot:

[citom]

The Ritual of Seppuku (http://www.aikidofaq.com/essays/seppuku.html)

Kaishaku Kata (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aYF1kNqAOt8)

[Neil H Melancon]

http://www.amazon.com/Hara-Kiri-Japanese-Ritual-Suicide-Books/dp/0804802319

This is an excellent little book on seppuku that will tell you more than you ever wanted to know on the subject.

[David Craik]

Most do not realize That Ritual suicide was frowned upon and in fact ordered against in many instances. Though many think it was a Samurai's Right to die in this Fashion , it was not . Usually it was a Samurai that rebelled or disagreed with his superior that ended up this way .(As it was stated in another post) But for the most part it was not sanctioned or allowed, it was in fact just rebelious.

This is not entirely correct. Prior to the Tokugawa shogunate it was considered quite proper under certain circumstances. In some cases it could be considered the 'right' of the samurai as in some examples of sokotsu-shi a bushi was permitted to end his life in this way as oppossed to a commoner who would have been simply executed. There is also junshi, following one's lord in death; which was considered honorable in various times and clans.

If it was 'frowned upon', there would hardly be waza in iaijutsu ryu such as Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu specifically for assisting another to kill themselves in this way.

I think the idea of it being unacceptable or frowned upon is an example of historical revisionism as our Western socio-religious culture tries to make sense of a practice which is alien and abhorrent to us. Your capitalization of 'The Christian Faith' is telling. If it was unacceptable, then there sho'nuff were a helluva lot of people being 'rebellious' in a society which was notable for its conformity. Kanshi was simply considered a more honorable way to protest a lord's decision, as confronting him verbally or embarrassing him would be unthinkable. This simply isn't the way things were done.

[Bengel]

The practice of seppuku was well-documented during the Sengoku Jidai and before. Later on I have read that many samurai actually did little more than scratch their bellies, with the kaishaku doing most of the work by beheading them...the belly cutting had become more or less symbolic.

I don't remember the details of the first documented seppuku, I have it around here someplace. The guy slit open his belly, pulled out his intestines, and threw them at his lord's feet so that they could be examined for their 'purity' (of his soul and intention). Pretty hardcore stuff. :)

Although I don't have any documentation to back this up I've heard from a friend who has studied Japanese language and culture that indeed the belly was more commonly scratched than cut as this was a more 'comfortable' way to go (provided you were beheaded or cut your jugular vein afterwards).

Cutting the belly had some downsides:
1. you need to cut muscles (abdomen) which isn't easy
2. it takes a long time to bleed to death from a belly cut and it's one of the more painful places to get cut.

I have no medical knowledge but it sounds plausible.
Throwing your own intestines at your lord's feet sounds pretty hardcore indeed. Different times, differtent people.

[Jeff C.]

Regarding #2 Dennis, that could be why a kaishakunin (介錯人) - a second - is used. The trusted second would decapitate the person committing seppuku at the appropriate moment.

Jeff Cook

[David Craik]

Another hardcore case was fairly recent by seppuku standards. A case of jumonji giri - you have no kaishaku to deliver the merciful blow. You simply slit your belly and bleed to death over the next half an hour or so. General Nogi, who did it as junshi (following one’s lord in death) on the death of the Meiji emperor in 1912. He not only committed jumonji giri, he buttoned up his white military blouse afterwards and quietly bled to death to follow his beloved emperor. The irony of Meiji having abolished the samurai class in 1868 was perhaps lost on him.