View Full Version : Types of materials for Katana
Can anyone give me some information in regards to what types of steel other than 440 to look for when purchasing a katana? I don't study this art yet, but the system of jujutsu that I study of course includes this training at shodan.
At this time, I just have a desire to learn about the swords and their manufacture at this point. Please give pros and cons for each.
All I know is that my sword is folded steel from Japan (blunt so that i don't kill myself). Aside from that I'm about as useful as a chocolate fire-guard....
Bad Karma
12-01-2002, 02:28
LOL! Chocolate fire guard...that's funny.
I wish someone would answer this fricking post because learning the sword is one of my "things to do" in life.
Peace
Ok I don't know anything about swords or metal...I met a guy who said he made western weapons which sounded fun but I lost his number. My muay thai trainers trainer (lets say grandmaster in normal MA terminology) makes some weapons, I would like to talk to him more but he plays the 'reclusive old martial arts master' role very well.
I used to be on the mailing list aikido-L and a guy there said folding was mainly to even out inconsistencies in lower quality steel, making it less relevent now with better quality steel. I'm not sure about though. You would think that folding would increase rigidity in the direction you cut.
But aside from my own personal ideas it makes some sense, you would expect modern steel to be of better quality. So I would say using the same steel as samurai had their swords wouldn't be a great idea as far as being functional.
The main thing as far as the type of steel regards the compromise between being 'rigid but easily shattered/chipped' and being 'soft but more flexible/durable'.
But...if you don't have a teacher that would know much about the swords then I don't know if you need a really good quality sword. I really, really don't think you should be testing the limits of a sword yourself, unless you like making interesting headlines.
Or maybe the best advice I can give is not listen to my advice, ask this question on a sword forum. Then post the link here:p
high carbon steel blades ae cheep(about £100) and are good quality for the price, also easy to re_sharpen and clean and dont brake if tempered properly. 1095 hemogenous is good and cheap.
folded steel blades are much more expensive but alot better quality and are worth saving for. u can get these swords for about £500_£900 depending on the fittings.
Carbon steel blades are cheap, and they suck to! They rust very easily.
I would recommend buying a sword that was made the traditional way, according to no type of modern day steel. Sure, they are expensive, but you get what you pay for.
If you can't offord a tradional sword, then just go with 440, its a high quality steel and inexpensive to.
Actually, 440 isn't that high quality, but if you can't afford a good sword, you might as well have a display piece, I guess...
440 is to high quality my ignorant friend! Its much more than display piece metal. :mad:
No its just shiny and good looking thts all. save it for pen blades.
Ben,
If 440 was good quality, swords made of the stuff wouldn't sell for $59.95. I guess I'm not sure of what you would consider poor quality.
Originally posted by Kenji
440 is to high quality my ignorant friend! Its much more than display piece metal. :mad:
If you want to wave around a 3 foot razor blade, suit yourself. Just make sure that when you strike something hard, and it shatters, that you're the only one that will get ripped to shreds by the pieces.
:nono:
Please refer to this thread for clarification.
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13352
Jay Bell
04-19-2003, 23:09
440 is to high quality my ignorant friend! Its much more than display piece metal.
I'm sorry, but that's wrong. 440 isn't even forged...it's a mold-steel.
RA Miller
04-20-2003, 09:52
I'm no expert...
Uriah, if you can find a copy get "The Complete Bladesmith" by Jim Hrisulous. He will tell you more about steels, forging and comparisons in blade construction than I, at least, can remember.
All steel is carbon steel. If there is no carbon, it's called iron. If there is a lot of carbon, it's called cast iron.
Steel can be alloyed with other metals, such as chromium (which gives stainless steel).
440c means it is .044% carbon. (don't quote me on this, it might be 44% carbon. Point being, it doesn't take much.)
The more carbon, the harder the steel. Unfortunately, the more carbon, the more brittle. Forging, drawing and tempering can allay the brittleness issue, but only to an extent.
The folding process in a katana has nothing to do with the edge. The folded mixed layers are wrapped around a single layer of very high carbon steel. The folded layers help with support and shock absorption while the edge can be really sharp. The folded sheath helps keep the blade from chipping.
The differential tempering process is the real key to the Japanese blade.
As far as folding, the vikings managed to come up with a system to do the same thing with a double-edged blade.
440c is easy to care for, holds an edge, but is considered far too brittle for a long blade. "High quality" means a different thing for a knife than a sword.
Rory
Most swords that gleam or shine are made of stainless steel. Anything made of stainless steel is not a real sword but a decorative sword. Stainless Steel blades are molecularly brittle and cannot take nearly the same punishment as the swords of middle ages, regardless of the steel coming from Toledo Spain or any other region. The science of steel and it's properties is called metallurgy. Steels of different metallurgies have different properties, but they are all generally simple alloys or "low alloy" such as high carbon steel. Stainless steel for example. It's generally very high in chromium which acts as a grain enhancer but weakens the molecular bonds of a sword. On the other hand, a 5160 steel type like that used in truck springs proves itself as sword worthy metal. Other steels that are used for, say, a $1,000.00 higher end Japanese katanas might be forged from welded cable steel, or from the AISI 10xx series such as 1050, 1084, 1095, etc. which metallurgically have similar properties but with some differences. L6 is a steel that is reported to have incredible performanc properties. In the case of Japanese swords, the steel must be able to be clay tempered to create a real temper line (or "hamon") which is something high alloy steels cannot do. Some smiths have used O1, D2, or A2 for swords. Those steel grades are the same that can be found in some of your tools, and can serve as functional swords. But if you want the same beautiful aesthetics as a real Japanese sword temper line, you're out of luck unless the smith knows a special technique.
Many swords manufactured in third world countries such as India, Philippines, and Pakistan may use "spring steel". These are in fact recycled springs from tanks or trucks. The recycling of truck springs could present a problem. Often times, recycled spring steel is not processed properly; the process of treating the steel takes some skill, but third world countries have been known to cut corners. This results in the steel having memory. The steel may stress and want to revert back to its original grain direction. Also, the steel can suffer microcrystaline cracks, and, over a period of time, this can cause "cracking" along the grain boundaries as the sword is subjected to stress and shock. The result is that swords will break if they are not made correctly. Thus, be very careful when purchasing real battle ready swords. Observe the sales pitch. "Live steel" or "Spring Steel" or just "High Carbon Steel" can be either incomplete or misleading information. This is not to say that steel from recycled sources are bad. Some of the best Japanese style swords have been made from anything ranging from forge welded cables to anchor irons. It's how the steel is recycled and retreated for the sword.
Rockwell hardness testing is a general method for measuring the bulk hardness of metallic and polymer materials. Although hardness testing does not give a direct measurement of any performance properties, hardness correlates with strength, wear resistance, and other properties. Hardness testing is widely used for material evaluation due to its simplicity and low cost relative to direct measurement of many properties. Conversion charts from Rockwell hardness to tensile strength are available for some structural alloys, including steel and aluminum. Rockwell hardness testing is an indentation testing method. An indenter is impressed into the steel sample at a prescribed load to measure the material's resistance to deformation. A Rockwell hardness number is calculated from the depth of permanent deformation of the sample after application and removal of the test load. Various indenter shapes and sizes combined with a range of test loads form a matrix of Rockwell hardness scales that are applicable to a wide variety of materials.
The goal of heat treating is to achieve a balance between toughness and hardness. Inversely proportional to one another, toughness has to do with impact absorption and shock tolerance, while hardness has to do with cutting and edge capabilities. Too soft, and your sword gets cut in two. Too hard and the sword is too brittle. Heat treating incorrectly can totally ruin a sword. Some businesses or websites boast about the quality of the steel but don't mention how or if the sword was heat treated. All of our Marto swords are heat treated. If there is no mention, and the sword retailer or reseller cannot comment on a heat treatment, and if the sword is under 300 US dollars, then chances are your sword may be a decorative wall hanger. In the case of Japanese swords, the edge is harder for cutting durability, while the back of the blade is softer to withstand the stresses of combat. The Samurai tried to kill with single blows and avoid blade-to-blade contact altogether! Some cracks are very obvious, and some are very fine. The fine ones can grow larger over time. Some Renaissance Fair sellers of the Japanese sword are nothing more than a bar of steel with a sharp point and edge. They do not have a hardened edge and softer spine like traditional Japanese swords do, which is a result of extra careful heat treating.
Some sword sellers and makers don't have any concept of how a sword should feel. The best thing to do when in search for real weapons is to look for or ask about blade design. A good sword maker will first determine with the customer what the intended use of the blade is and its intended target. These factors include a person's physical measurements. A sword made to cut armor will differ in design than a sword designed to just cut through flesh. Historically, the Japanese sword had differences in balancing thickness and blade width, and adding fullers (or grooves - not "blood grooves") to lighten the blades in some cases. A large blade does not need to be heavy, as a result of balancing all these factors. Thus the ability to craft a weapon that exceeds the parameters of its intended use is a tremendous acheivment. A heavy sword can undermine maneuverability, and in a life or death situation a well balanced and ligher sword that was made with the above mentioned qualities will be victorious. Swordmakers of the past constantly worked with fencing masters in a relationship which provided constant feedback of how a sword was made. Thus, a craftsman without this kind of support is hindered from producing a sword that can serve as a real weapon. Otherwise, you have a wall-hanger or decorative piece. Beware of swords that are over 3 lbs. Some decorative swords are 5 to 10 lbs. which is too heavy and in the olden days, a sword of that incredible weight would get you killed by someone else's sword! So ask yourself, does the sword feel like it is a part of you - an extension of yourself? Is its use awkward to your own natural body movements?
You may hear the sales pitch indicating a four different Rockwell hardness reading, from a swords edge to it's two mid-points and finally the spine. But what is it made of? Stainless steel they say.. Move on if you are looking for a real sword for combat. The attention to detail of a traditional Japanese blade given by traditional sword polishers is an immense discipline of many years of study and should not be overlooked! Another thing to take into account is the hilt. The hilt comprises the guard, the handle, and the pommel. While the pommel is mostly seen as the counterweight to the blade, the hilt has to be seen as a whole. Many fantasy swords have the wildest hilts in the world, and yet the hilts are so heavy that the sword makes no sense as a weapon. So ask your self do you want a pretty sharp bar of steel, or do you want a real sword?
Some dealers use all kinds of BS to sell you a sword. Some claim they use tool steel because it's used to cut through other steels. Sounds great when you're marketing swords. Others say, "we use spring steel or, the steel comes from Mercedes truck springs. If it's good for a two-ton truck, it's good for a sword." Technically this is true. But rather than get a brand new 5160, some third world countries actually get the steel from tank springs and try to forge swords out of them. Improper heat treatment results in the memory of the original shape being retained in the steel, which can further result in microcrystaline cracks and fractures. Finally, who could resist web pages full of cheesy metallurgical terms such as "secret steel" or "steel of the Knights Templar" or "our blades function as one crystal" and "edge packing of the edges" and the occurance of an "electromagnetic hum" that can be "felt". Twentieth century metallurgy is a science. There is no such thing as an indestructable sword or indestructable steel.
If you wish to know more e-mail me and I will do my best to answer direct questions. Ja ne
Wow, sadist, good reply. You only left out one thing: per forum rules you need to include your real full name in every post. :)
by the way if you are looking for a more affordable sword that is well made check out the practical series made by paul chen. I highly recommend not practicing with sharp swords, unless you have a few too many appendiges. I practice with a dull aluminum sword that I weighted with lead, just get a standard iaido sword and weight the handle. easy
-Brian shaw
The Black Ninja
07-06-2004, 03:10
First of all let me say, buying a 440 stainless steel blade is a waste of money. They are basically show or decoration pieces. They brake easily and even shatter, you can't even machine sharpen them because they will damage. What I would recommend getting for those people that would like to have a sword that can cut through something more than a branch and that is fully functional, is a practical plus katana by paul chen. They are excellent swords at a good price, with 1095 forged and dual tempered blade which gives you a front hardness of HRC-60 and a back hardness of HRC-40. They use the traditional clay methods to make the blade. The sword is about 260-350 dollars but it it worth every penny. Also let me point one more thing out, if you ever go to a website or store and you find a golden oriole katana or a shinto katana, those are worth about 500-700 dollars. Now the blades are made almost exactly the same way as the practical plus, only they have more "decorations" like a laquared saya (scabbard) or decorations on the tsuba (hand guard). And I would not really recommend buying a folded steel blade just because of the price. I mean, even the folded steel blades can damage. If taken identical blades and hit against each other, both will damage, no matter how good the blade is. Even if you get a katana with 10 thousand folds and hit it against another katana with 10 thousand folds, both blades will damage. So I would recommend the practical plus katana, good price, good blade. Oh and never buy a 420 J2 or 440 blade, waste of money, they brake and even shatter easily. If anyone has any more questions, feel free to e-mail me at krazy_kool69@hotmail.com
My bushido katana has swedish powdered steel.
The Black Ninja
07-06-2004, 13:32
That is quite a nice sword, but it is too much money to spend. You see, if you get into a duel with katanas with someone else, it's not about blocking and then attacking, it's about never even having to worry about your oponents sword, means get him before he gets you so that the blades don't even touch. But if you really can't, then yeah block, and a folded blade against a practical plus won't do a lot of damage to the practical plus, you can always resharpen it to take off the nick. For example, if a person comes at you with a full swing, all you do is side step and draw at his throat, see, so you don't need such an expensive blade to fight, if you know how to use it, you can do well with a practical plus against folded blades. And if you do have to block, it doesn't do that much damage and can be repaired.
Per forum rules, you need to sign your posts wit your real full name.
The Black Ninja
07-06-2004, 18:33
I am sorry, but a ninja may not reveal his identity, if you want, go ahead and kick me off. It was a pleasure chatting with all of you.
As other people have pointed out, stainless steel is not an appropriate metal for a useable sword, even if it's a blunt practice sword. The grades of stainless steel most commonly used for swords are 420 and 440. Those grades are used because they are CHEAP, but they are not good grades to make a decent useable sword from. While there are higher quality grades of stainless steel which could be used to make decent swords, those grades are more expensive AND require special treatment when the sword blade is made. The companies which normally make/sell stainless steel blades do NOT use high quality grades of stainless steel because that would make the swords more expensive.
Let's face it, if you're someone who wants a well made steel sword and do some simple reasearch first, you'll find out it's going to cost several hundred dollars minimum, so you're not going to pay $50 and expect the same quality as a $200+ sword. The companies making/selling $50 stainless steel swords are not trying to sell to people who understand how a decent sword should be made or what it should be made from, they're deliberately selling to people who DON'T understand these things (as an example, there is the now infamous "shattering sword" video clip from the Home Shopping Network. A cheap stainless steel sword was being displayed, one of the presenters was hitting the top of a table with it and it literally shattered into pieces on camera. The presenter was injured when he was hit by a flying chunk of stainless steel from the blade).
Ben, the others are right, 440 is NOT a good grade of steel to make swords from. Whoever told you that needs a kick in the pants.
Black Ninja, just how many real sword duels occour these days? Can you think of any country anywhere in the world where it is legal to have a real sword duel? Someone who buys something like a Bushido or a hand forged shinken from Japan is buying it because of the higher quality feratures (such as the jihada grain pattern and hamon visible in the steel) and fittings compared to a PK which is really a bare minimum in terms of being a useable sword. It's also the same reason why some people by a Ferrari or a Rolls Royce instead of a basic model Toyota, for the higher quality and improved features.
The Black Ninja
07-06-2004, 20:18
There are people in such places as Japan or China that are sent to assasinate other people, in some cases they are ninja and use a ninja tou, that's how you can get into a duel. Also, somewhere there are people called the red ninja, they use swords and ballistic weapons, people can get into a duel with one of them, so there is some duels going around, not many, but still some. And there are people that I know that use folded blades for practice against each other.
Oh dear, where to begin.
First, Although we joke with each other from time to time this is a serious forum for serious discussions. This means including your REAL NAME in every post. It's a forum requirement. If you can't deal with that, then you're not ready for this forum.
Second, someone's certainly been feeding you "hollywood" hype regarding "ninjas". Let's begin with "ninja tou". There is no such thing. The name "ninja to" (you spelled it wrong) is an "americanised" name. There is a historical style of straight single edged Japanese sword called "chokuto", but it's a very old style of sword, older than either the curved tachi and katana style swords. There were a few straight katana made during the 1400's, but this was mostly a temporary fad and never became popular. These "mu sori" swords ("mu" means no or none, "sori" means curve) were straight, but they were identical to katana in all other ways and extremely rare, considered oddities by most people of the time. Then there are the comments by Hatsumi Masaaki about ninja and swords. If you're learning ninpo/ninjutsu, you should have heard of Hatsumi Masaaki. If you haven't, he is the current "grand master" of the Togakure ryu style of ninpo. Togakure ryu is one of the very few traditional styles of ninpo with a reliably established history dating back hundreds of years which still exists today. His own statement is that there is no proven evidence that ninja traditionally used straight bladed swords that are popularised today. His own research into that topic is that ninja used the same style of swords as other people so that they could blend in more easily and not be noticed.
Think about it, if you're trying to go unnoticed and not be discovered as a "ninja", carrying an item that is hard to conceil easily and closely associated with ninja is not a smart idea. You might as well carry a sign on your back saying "I'm a ninja". Not very clever.
As for duel's still happening, care to provide some independent evidence such as media reports (newspaper articles of police investigations or court cases will do), or is someone just feeding you more unsubstantiated hype?
There is a lot of hype attached to all forms of martial arts these days. I vividly remember how quickly ninjutsu became popular in the 80's (ahhh, all those Sho Kosugi movies *grin*). Any suddenly expanding "bandwagon" is bound to have frauds and charletans climb on board and just like all other styles of martial arts, ninpo/ninjutsu has it's share of charletans and frauds who'll tell their students whatever nonsense will keep them coming back and paying their fees. I'm not saying your instructor is a fake, but there's a lot of nonsense out there, and you seem to have picked up some of it.
You have some unlearning to do grasshopper.
The Black Ninja
07-07-2004, 00:12
Yes I do know the ninja to was a hollywood thing, but it is an effective weapon many people use today, not my choice of weapon though, and yes I have heard of Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi.
David Craik
07-07-2004, 01:19
I am sorry, but a ninja may not reveal his identity, if you want, go ahead and kick me off.
:laugh:
There are people in such places as Japan or China that are sent to assasinate other people, in some cases they are ninja and use a ninja tou, that's how you can get into a duel.
Good God, save me some of whatever it is you've been smoking.
David, his profile shows that he's only 15 so some forebearence from crusty relics like ourselves (I'm 38) is required, but only some. :wink2: Just think, in 20+ years from now he may be dealing with impudent pups who are just like he is today. :D And there are always advantages to age. :toast: :)
That is quite a nice sword, but it is too much money to spend. You see, if you get into a duel with katanas with someone else, it's not about blocking and then attacking, it's about never even having to worry about your oponents sword, means get him before he gets you so that the blades don't even touch. But if you really can't, then yeah block, and a folded blade against a practical plus won't do a lot of damage to the practical plus, you can always resharpen it to take off the nick. For example, if a person comes at you with a full swing, all you do is side step and draw at his throat, see, so you don't need such an expensive blade to fight, if you know how to use it, you can do well with a practical plus against folded blades. And if you do have to block, it doesn't do that much damage and can be repaired.
I hope to god that you have a qualified instructor in swordarts. From the sounds of your post, you just seem like another kid wishing to be a samurai.
I don't just own a bushido katana for the hell of it, I have Qualified instruction and am learning to use the shinken as it is intended to.
And I just saw the rest of the thread after posting this.
Yes the black "ninjer" is just another kid with ADD syndrome.
I really do hope to all the gods that I happen to know that you DO NOT own a sword!
John Bennett
07-07-2004, 07:59
I am sorry, but a ninja may not reveal his identity, if you want, go ahead and kick me off. It was a pleasure chatting with all of you.
If you wish to participate and are willing to follow the forum rules you are welcome back any time. Just email a moderator and verify your identity.
David Craik
07-07-2004, 17:59
David, his profile shows that he's only 15 so some forebearence from crusty relics like ourselves (I'm 38) is required, but only some. :wink2: Just think, in 20+ years from now he may be dealing with impudent pups who are just like he is today. :D And there are always advantages to age. :toast: :)
Fair enough, Mr. Bull. Yet even at 15 I didn't believe that 'red ninja' were running around getting into duels and assassinating people with fictional swords. :D
But oh well, he seems to be gone now, unable to break the Black Ninja Dragon Society's oath of anonymity. Can't really blame him..if you reveal your identity you are required to commit seppuku in the most horrifying way imaginable. (http://www.msu.edu/~couilla3/ninja/seppuku.htm)
That's good David.
Death by frisbee! :D
I will stick up for The Black Ninja. I dont care what you say to me right now, but all of you guys seem like a bunch of macho "im so powerful" self defense (not real martial arts) jerks. Even my mom agrees with me.
I know what you all are thinking. "Lighten up", "get real", "whatever", or "he is only a 14 year old snotnosed brat".
I may only have been alive on this planet for 14 years, but I know right from wrong. And right now, Budoseek is in the wrong category. People have said "budoseek will give you some good advice" and I agree, but it comes with a price. Do all of you guys know what that is? Well, if your smart enough, you will figure it out.
P.S.: The samurai used ritual suicide becouse they could not stand the shame of defeat, like losing a very imortant war or something. I dont really know the ninja's reason though.
P.S.P.S: I am not a "troll". I just say things when I need to.
Charles Mahan
07-08-2004, 16:06
Umm... So when are you going to stick up for The Black Ninja?
As far as I can tell, you said nothing which makes any attempt to excuse or rationalize anything The Black Ninja said. You didn't try to explain away the whole Red Ninja thing, nor did you make an excuse for his refusal to obey the forum rules and sign with his real name. A refusal which seems to have gotten him banned.
Did I miss something in your post?
David Craik
07-08-2004, 18:56
I must have missed something as well. I don't see any refutation of any facts or statements..only that you and your mom think we're macho jerks and not "real martial artists" - a conclusion reached, no doubt, by your vast years of experience in Budo. And of course your kind explanation of seppuku, although since I was in Japan before you were born I am reasonably familiar with the term.
Just for your knowledge though, seppuku was performed for far more reasons than simply 'the shame of defeat'. There was funshi: suicide committed to express outrage over the behavior of a superior, oibara: to follow one's superior in death, sokutsushi: seppuku in atonement for a crime or breach of etiquette, and also kanshi: seppuku committed to try to get one's superior to reconsider a decision.
I don't quite know what you're getting at with the rest of your posts. Why is Budoseek in the "wrong" category? Because it is being pointed out that ninja are no longer running around with swords assassinating people, and that there are no such thing as "red ninja", nor have there ever been? Or that this "Black Ninja" kid got banned because he refused to obey forum rules, rules which he agreed to when he requested membership to this forum?
Instead of saying things 'when you need to', how about saying something which actually makes a point?
Perhaps there should be a "Romper Room" subforum on here for our young friends to discuss ongoing ninja duels and kumitachi with folded blades.
P.S. How's the bullet dodging training going, Charles? :laugh:
Edward/Mist, forum sites like this can't display to tone and emphasis of what we say easily, mostly they only convey the words.
Let me ask you a few questions. You say that in this discussion, BudoSeek is "in the wrong". In the wrong of what? What is the purpose of BudoSeek? Is it to be a place where people can discuss budo arts and sort fact from fiction, or is it to pander to misconception? All the official moderators did was ask Black Ninja to use his real name in his posts, just like everyone else. You can do it, I can, why couldn't Black Ninja? Is it really such a hard thing to do? Anything else said in the discussion is entirely the responsibilities of the individuals involved, not BudoSeek as an official entity.
There are pleanty of fakes in all walks of life, some of them are involved in budo. Who's best interest are such people serving, their own, or their students? I'm not saying Black Ninja is some kind of fake, in my previous comments I commented several times that his misconceptions appear to have come from some other source. Perhaps from badly researched/written books and magazines, perhaps from other web sites where the people making comments don't know any better, perhaps from an instructor who unknowlingly passes on such misconceptions because that's what they were taught and don't know any better. Is a school teacher or college lecturer doing their students harm or good when they teach bad information? Why should an MA instructor or book/magazine writer be any different?
We're here on BudoSeek discussing the budo arts because we admire and respect them. Out of that admiration and respect we point out untruth and misconception when we see them, not to belittle someone or make them feel inferior in some way, but to educate. Perhaps we don't always phrase our comments as well as we could, we're all imperfect, we're all fallible. In the long run, would Black Ninja, you, I, or anyone else be better served believing the truth or misconception?
If you wish to participate and are willing to follow the forum rules you are welcome back any time. Just email a moderator and verify your identity.
Come now John, you know that won't happen. :up:
David Craik
07-09-2004, 01:02
So Qasim, did you get a sword yet, and if so, what steel did you go with?
...We're here on BudoSeek discussing the budo arts because we admire and respect them. Out of that admiration and respect we point out untruth and misconception when we see them, not to belittle someone or make them feel inferior in some way, but to educate. Perhaps we don't always phrase our comments as well as we could, we're all imperfect, we're all fallible. In the long run, would Black Ninja, you, I, or anyone else be better served believing the truth or misconception?
I don't know, according to his website, he has FAR more martial experience than ANY and all here: http://www.freewebs.com/mistfield/martialarts.htm
You be the judge. Time to stop babysitting the kids, if they're serious, they'll take advice and stop posting his fantasies. :ticks:
So Qasim, did you get a sword yet, and if so, what steel did you go with?
Nope, I had to take some time off from training jujutsu, and got pulled into Aikido by my extended family. Should have gone that way from the beginning. I'm in the market for jo staff, suburi, bokken and tanto now. Need them for class.
Any recommendations on the type of wood? Right now I'm looking into Hard Oak at Honda Marital Arts. I like the way the rattan pieces look, but how are they?
David Craik
07-09-2004, 01:46
Hmm...I wonder why boxing is a martial art, but wrestling isn't?
David Craik
07-09-2004, 02:22
Any recommendations on the type of wood? Right now I'm looking into Hard Oak at Honda Marital Arts. I like the way the rattan pieces look, but how are they?
Generally shiro kashi (Japanese White Oak) and aka kashi (Japanese Red Oak) are used. I prefer the white, more for aesthetic reasons because I like the tight grain, although it is reputedly more susceptable to humidity. A little about these woods:
http://www.budogu.com/html/wood_types.html
Sunuke is very good, although quite expensive. American makers are turning out bokken in impact-grade hickory (same as used in axe handles and hammers) which are supposedly very good. Bugei Trading is a source for these - but beware, their tsuka are long!
Bokken and jo are also being made of exotic woods like ipe and bloodwood, but generally I consider these too expensive.
The pieces at Honda MA labelled 'hard oak' appear to be shiro kashi and aka kashi, but beware: there are a lot of bokken being sold as "Red Oak" and dirt cheap, but they are really of a weaker wood, and made in Taiwan. They are characterised by very poor grain and crappy balance. Example: Century MA
Thus I don't buy a bokuto unless it specifically says that it is Japanese White (or Red) oak - unless of course I can examine it in person :)
I've never used rattan bokken or jo. Seems like they might be a bit light, but I dunno.
Extremely good products and service are also at:
www.mugendo.com
www.swordstore.com
http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/
http://bokkenshop.com/eng/index.html
I've had no regrets from any of these folks - all of their stuff is the genuine article. Hope this helps a little.
Ok. I know it was wrong for The Black Ninja to disobey the rules, but you guys have got to stop picking on people who are younger than you.
What is fantasy to some people is reality for others. If I say it is possible to doge bullets, then to me it is possible. If we all train to attain the unattainable, then wouldnt all of us be more skillful in the art that we study?
And once more, I will no longer be posting unless it is nesesary. Which means, I will not be creating and new threads.
By the way. Do any of you know what the martial arts was origionaly created for? I know it defenatly wasnt a self-defense sport at that time. If some of you like how it is now, fine, but I like the old intention of martial arts. I had to post that so I could get it of my chest.
David Craik
07-11-2004, 21:47
Ok. I know it was wrong for The Black Ninja to disobey the rules, but you guys have got to stop picking on people who are younger than you.
Nothing wrong with being young, or even being ignorant. It's when one is both and yet continues to argue and cop an attitude with people that have decades of experience behind their given opinion that it becomes irritating. I don't go on a Mesopotamian History board, for example, and start asserting my beliefs/arguing with historians - because I honestly don't know very much about it. I shut my stupid yap and read, and learn. This prevents a person from being labelled a troll.
What is fantasy to some people is reality for others. If I say it is possible to doge bullets, then to me it is possible.
No, it's still just plain old fantasy, and quite impossible. To say that it is possible 'to you' is simply an admission that you believe illogical things. A 9mm round, depending on it's weight and loading, routinely has a muzzle velocity of over 1000 feet per second. This is over 681 miles per hour. Faster by a long shot than the fastest Olympic runner in history, way faster than a cheetah, a stock car, or a top fuel dragster. No one has yet learned to break the sound barrier with their body to get out of the way, not in the centuries that guns have existed. Even the slowest handgun bullets, like the 230 grain .45ACP, still travel way faster than any creature on earth can move.
If we all train to attain the unattainable, then wouldnt all of us be more skillful in the art that we study?
It is admirable to train in order to reach the highest skill possible in your chosen art. But if the art you study includes Matrix-like bullet dodging in it's curriculum, it's likely a nonsensical one anyway.
And once more, I will no longer be posting unless it is nesesary. Which means, I will not be creating and new threads.
This would improve the signal-to-noise ratio. Fact is, it's never "nesesary". Note that I have been on this board for over 2 years longer than you, yet have less than 1/3 of your posts. I think a good idea may be for you to train/learn more, and talk less. Just a suggestion.
By the way. Do any of you know what the martial arts was origionaly created for? I know it defenatly wasnt a self-defense sport at that time. If some of you like how it is now, fine, but I like the old intention of martial arts. I had to post that so I could get it of my chest.
To which martial arts are you referring, as they were created for different reasons. I'm pretty sure that since many of the folks here have been training far longer than you have been alive, they have a pretty good idea of what their chosen art was created for. Lose the 'know it all' attitude - this is why the other kids won't listen to your dodgeball strategies (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=49077&postcount=7), and why you will not be taken seriously here.
.....sounds of applause can be heard from the gallery. :up:
Thank you David for your concise reply to Mist.
I couldn't be bothered to muster the energy and brain power required to hold any sensible debate / conversation with him.
But your post says it all!
Ok. I will try to lose the "know it all" attitude that you say I have. I am just trying to make a point and before I know it it has gotten people mad at me. Several people (outside of Budo Seek) have said I should get my IQ tested because I could be very intellegent. If I were back in the ancient times, I would probably make a very good military strategist.
If you say dodging a bullet is impossible, then fine. I know it will be extremely hard, but some way, (maybe through prayer) it might happen. Please hear me on this that if we all just put our minds to it, we might be able to acomplish Fantasy like things.
Do any of you know of a good japanese sword art dojo or Kung Fu classes in Pennsylvania? I would also like to be taught Kyudo/Kyujutsu (japanese archery).
David Craik
07-12-2004, 18:50
Ok Edward...not gonna touch the prayer thing with a ten foot pole. But
before giving you some dojo, I suggest a little reading on the koryu:
A Bit of Background (http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss2.html)
Some Thoughts on Learning Koryu in the West (http://www.koryu.com/library/dskoss7.html)
What is a Ryu? (http://www.koryu.com/library/wmuromoto3.html)
All the articles over at koryu.com are valuable reading. Something to understand about Japanese sword arts, and particularly koryu, is that dojo can be selective about who they will accept as a student. It isn't like some other dojos, where you just plunk down your money and start training. You cannot make demands about what you want to learn and don't want to learn. Experienced sensei and senpai will be rather uninterested in your (or any other new student's) "insights" into martial arts. It would be advisable for any new student to keep eyes and ears open, and mouth mostly closed - but of course that should be the case at any dojo.
In some sword dojo, your age might be a factor. In others, they want students to have a background in a gendai art (like Judo, Kendo, or Karate) before they will accept them. Some want you to study aikido in their dojo for a time before progressing to sword arts, or they may require a personal interview before you can train. It isn't like Burger King in many cases - you can't have it your way. As a student, you will be representing their ryu - which is sometimes hundreds of year old. Understandably, they want good representatives.
It would probably be helpful to know where you are in Pennsylvania, but, here we go:
http://www.ittendojo.org/
This dojo is affiliated with the Skosses, Mr. Amdur, and Mr. Relnick, some of the most highly respected non-Japanese in the koryu world. I don't know if age is a factor here, but I would suggest being very respectful in your inquiries.
--------------------------
http://tanshinkaidojo.org/
This dojo offers kendo.
---------------------------
This dojo offers kendo, and possibly iaido (not sure):
Shu Do Kan Dojo
831 D Ann St
Stroudsburg, PA
M 7:00-8:00pm W F 6:00-7:00am
Contact: Shuji Matsushita (570)223-1756
---------------------------------------
Another kendo dojo:
Rei Mei Kan Dojo
Bath, PA
Contact: Scott Lutz (610)837-1272
You may want your mom or another adult to call and arrange a meeting.
-----------------------------------------
Yagyu Shinkage Ryu is a koryu hundreds of years old. Don't know anything about this dojo, but the art is highly respected:
http://www.yagyu-ryu.org/beikoku.shtml
-----------------------------------------
Kyudo is difficult to find in the United States, but try these links:
http://www.netwiz.net/~eclay/links.htm
Keep in mind that Kyudo is kind of a spiritual practice aimed at improving the self, not just shooting arrows. Kyujutsu, the predecessor to Kyudo, is pretty much limited to the Ogasawara-ryu, Takeda Ryu, and Heki-ryu. The only one that I am aware of that still practices the battlefield techniques is the Satsuma Heki Ryu..the others are mainly yabusame and kyudo-like practice. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this. At any rate, you pretty much have to come to Japan for these, I believe. This is the case with many koryu, for a number of reasons.
Hope this helps somewhat on your search. I'm afraid that I don't know very much about Gung Fu, so I shall refrain from trying to suggest anything. May want to try the Chinese Martial Arts section on this site. You may also consider the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan ninpo arts...one again, I don't know very much about these so will again keep my yap shut. ;)
If none of these work out or are very far away, I can contact someone I know in the States that may know of other dojo.
Geez I talk too much...
Qasim and Stan: :bow: :)
Great post again David.
Edward, I have recently watched a kyudo demonstration. I think out of the gendai arts (if kyudo is considered in the gendai category), kyudo has the most grace and elegance (closely followed by aikido and kendo that is! :laugh: ).
The amount of concentration and deliberation in their movements is what I would also consider as true budo.
If you have the change to learn kyudo, do so. I am trying to get my younger sister to take it up when she leaves home for university in London (only one kyudo dojo in london).
Charles Mahan
07-13-2004, 08:09
Kyudo is too general a term to attach the gendai label. Gendai/koryu are labels applied to specific schools. So there may be gendai kyudo schools, but there are also koryu kyudo schools. Just like there are gendai judo schools and koryu judo schools.
Thanks!
Any place in Greensburgh or Whiteoak PA would be good. I live near them. I will check out those websites.
Getting back to this thread's subject, I found some cool stuff on other websites and put it on my site.
Here is the link to that page.
http://www.freewebs.com/mistfield/thesamurai.htm
www.mistfield.tk is the main address. Freewebs is my website hosting service.
Charles Mahan
07-13-2004, 12:12
Don't suppose you bothered to get permission before stealing a lot of those images from Richard Stein and the folks at Bugei?
Hmmmmmm....
I never thought of that. I should ask them. I'll do it right now.
Charles Mahan
07-13-2004, 12:57
"Put "Hamon" on the Katana with a spatula. "
I'd also just like to say that that is one of the funniest things I've read all day. I'm wondering if getting the text of your page from the promos written by sword retailers is such a good idea...
David Craik
07-13-2004, 16:33
Good point on the koryu/gendai labels, Mr. Mahan.
Edward, it looks like you put a lot of work into that page. However, you may want to read Dr. Karl Friday's essay before going on too much about 'Bushido'..
http://www.koryu.com/library/kfriday2.html
A few minor errors, one of which is that a traditionally made katana is not "sharpened". It's sharpness is due to the polishing process.
Just another note Edward, authentic sword dojo (both koryu and derivative arts like Shinkendo) are rather few and far between in the West. Many practicioners drive for hours to get to their dojo to train. A fair number of martial artists come all the way to Japan for the purpose of training in an authentic tradition. I'm not sure what may be close to Greensburgh or Whiteoak, if anything. You may have to consider a different martial art if you are unable or unwilling to travel.
I thought that I had read a long time ago that M. Ueshiba dodged bullets at some point in his life. Is this me getting old, or did I really read it, in an Aikido book, no less?!
(Tongue in cheek)
What also, of Remo Williams, then there's the whole A-team, I think Murdock got shot, like once, in four years of close-range automatic gunplay!
Of course, if Soulend needs a expert in Mesopotamian history, I gotcher' back!
I knew the answer to that question towards the end of the "Holy Grail"...
David Craik
07-15-2004, 11:23
LOL@Gil :D
I dodged bullets once, but I was drunk and cannot remember how I did it. Ever wonder why, when the bad guy would shoot at Superman, he would just let the bullets bounce off of him...but when the bad guy ran out of bullets and threw the gun at him, he would duck?
LOL@Gil :D
I dodged bullets once, but I was drunk and cannot remember how I did it. Ever wonder why, when the bad guy would shoot at Superman, he would just let the bullets bounce off of him...but when the bad guy ran out of bullets and threw the gun at him, he would duck?
Perhaps there were traces of kryptonite in the gun. :laugh:
Edward, I was reading your site about making a katana. You certainly put a smile on my face, but not for the reasons you were probvably hoping for. Your intention was well meant, I have no doubt about that at all, but the end product was not as good as it could have been. There is a well known saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". What it means is that a well meant action may in actual fact do more harm than good if you don't think carefully about it first.
Your explainations of how a sword is made are unclear and somewhat muddled. They will actually cause more confusion and misunderstanding, which is the opposite of what you are trying to do. Let me give you an example.
As has already been mentioned, a hamon is not put on a sword with a spatula like your explaination says. Clay is put on the sword with a spatula in special layers, with differet thicknesses of clay on different parts of the sword. The sword is heated to red-hot with the clay coating on it and then put in water to quickly cool it. Different parts of the sword cool at different speeds because of the different layers of clay. It's the difference in cooling speeds which gives the steel different crystal structures. Living things such as animals, plants and people are made of cells. Metal is not made of cells, if you put metal under a very powerful microscope you see it is actually made of metalic crystals. The crystals change their patterns based on heat. The heating then cooling of the sword in water changes the crystal patterns of the steel. Since some parts of the blade cool faster and other parts slower, the steel has different crystal patterns in those parts of the blade. The parts that cool the fastest have the thinnest clay coating and will have the hardest crystal structure. The parts of the blade that cool slower will have softer crystal structures. After the sword has been polished, the hamon is a visible sign of the different crystal structures of the steel, harder at the edge, softer on the sides and back.
If you haven't already read it, I suggest you buy a book called "The Craft of the Japanese Sword" written by Leon Kapp and Yoshindo Yoshihara, published by Kodansha Press. This is an excellent book on how Japanese swords are made, featuring one of the most famous swordsmiths alive in Japan today, Yoshindo Yoshihara. You can get it from online sites like Amazon or order it through any normal bookstore (as long as you give the bookstore the correct name of the book, who wrote it and which company published it, which I've already given you in this post). Swords are a very intersting topic, but also quite technical and complicated. If you're going to write articles about them and put them on a web site, try to make sure you write clearly so your articles are easy to understand and that what you write is correct.
Oh ok. I'll update my site as soon as I can. Thanks!
Ronin1975
06-06-2005, 14:37
I have a contact who is into the sale/restoration of swords. I'll find his number and post it ASAP. Give me at least a week.
I have a contact who is into the sale/restoration of swords. I'll find his number and post it ASAP. Give me at least a week.
This thread is a year old and has died of natural causes.
Better to leave this one or close it.
Ronin1975
06-07-2005, 09:43
Will do. Thanks for the update, I did not notice the age of the thread when I posted. If anyone does need that information, please let me know.
Michael Grace
ok maybe I have misread but so far no one has actually answred this question with an alternative. 440 and 420 steels are molding steels, they are poured and then shaped and shined. in order to have a decent fighting blade you need 1080 steel and above with a Rockwell hardness of at least 50 though 40 will sufice, I just like my hard as apposed to flexable. ALL Paul Chen and Hanwei blades are 1080 and above so any one of those is generally a sure bet, you can get a pual chen practical or iaido for under 400 dollars and they will last you a life time unless you really just beat the living hell out of them...whihc I have done...but thats not the point. the best steels out there are the ones that use alloy mixes of small parts of scandium, vanadium or cobalt in the steel, these materials give the steel a ridiculously sharp edge especially the vanadium as well and an unrivaled strength, the only thing you sacrifice with such allows is that the metal does not bend anymore, its not even really springy, it shatters, however it takes an ungodly amount of fource to shatter one of these blades one that cant be generated by a human being so no worries there. For a katana or other japanese blade it is ideal as they arnt supposed to bend in the first place, but for other sowrds easpeically chinese, its not good to use such alloys. generally you will have an impossible time finind vanadium scandium or cobalt alloys but there are some custom swordsmiths on sword forum that will make them for you, but your looking at over 30 grand per blade hehehehehe. generally it best to just go with regular 1080 and above and you will have yourself a good blade. The other important thing to check for is the tang. alot of commercially made swords that CLAIM to be full tang arnt actually full tang at all, they are like a quarter tang with a long *** screw tacwleded on the bottom that extends the length of the guard to give the "feeling" of a full tang to the blade, but they will **** your balance to hell so be carefull to avoid them. all hanwei and paul chen blades have actual full tangs, you can demount the guard and find a real forged piece of steel underneath. if you cant pop out the Mekugi Pin and take off the hilt and find a real forged tang from the get go then you should probably send the sword back and get somehting better quality. also price wise if you buy a sword for anytning under 300 dollars you have a good chance that its a show weapon and not intended for practical use. The More You Know.....hehe sorry
David Craik
06-28-2005, 19:50
all hanwei and paul chen blades have actual full tangs
Actually, no. My Shinto has a 9" nakago in an 11" tsuka. Earlier models of the same sword had a 6 1/2" nakago. No Japanese sword that I'm aware of have a "full tang" as the term is used in the West as the nakago does not extend all the way to the tsukagashira.
Ahhh, the assault of another internet expert! Mr. Epicurious should spend a lot more time trying to understand what he's read rather than just spouting it back incorrectly and out of context. Some of what he said is indeed true in certain circumstances, much of it is simply wrong the way he has stated it. For any other aspiring internet experts out there, don't repeat what he has written as fact. It actually ranges from "uhhhh .... sorta" to "that's ridiculous!" :)
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