She thinks her instructors hate her !

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

Our highest ranked junior student turned round to her dad yesterday at training and told him she didn't want to train any more because her instructors hate her. The reason? Because they shout at her when she doesn't train hard enough and then she sulks and gets punished for it.

When I asked her if she thought they had reason to shout she said yes, so she's well aware that it's her attitude that is the problem.

She really hates it when her dad gives her pushups - he also trains and is a higher rank.

Strangely she doesn't seem too bad with me, even though I will give out more push ups plus other nasty stuff than most other assistants/instructors.

[jjaje]

Could be some connections between the particular person and the topics discussed on this thread http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=19893

However, at some point, you have to start to treat them like adults and not kids. Perhaps she is feeling like she doesn't want to be treated like a kid anymore.

How old is the junior?

[Sochin]

Perhaps she wants out and is setting up her rationalisations by acting lazy and indifferent.

[Da-RiSiN-sMoKe]

Is it that they don't think she doesn't take it seriously enough? I don't know. How old is she?

I hate when my partner is someone who doesn't want to be here; it wastes my time. Just MY experience.

[Kwon Pup Maze]

When dealing with kids instructors should learn to Praise-Correct-Praise. The results will be much greater then intimidation and yelling.

I do not expect to get treated like a recruit at Basic Training and neither should an innocent child trying to grow and find themselves. Instructors are students too and need to learn from the results they get. Just becuase that is the way they were treated does not make it right.

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

When dealing with kids instructors should learn to Praise-Correct-Praise. The results will be much greater then intimidation and yelling.

I do not expect to get treated like a recruit at Basic Training and neither should an innocent child trying to grow and find themselves. Instructors are students too and need to learn from the results they get. Just becuase that is the way they were treated does not make it right.

So what you are saying is that when a child misbehaves they can get away with it and shouldn't be told off? So a senior level student does something wrong and it can be allowed to slide so showing to all the other kids that they can get away with it too, result chaos.

I don't understand the relevance of this basic training bit but it seems like if you can't take a few harsh orders being barked at you then you are in the wrong place mate.

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

Is it that they don't think she doesn't take it seriously enough? I don't know. How old is she?

I hate when my partner is someone who doesn't want to be here; it wastes my time. Just MY experience.
She is 11 years old and she knows that we expect her to work hard but she is lazy. So she gets told to work harder and then she sulks and doesn't improve, so then she is told to do push ups and still she sulks and doesn't do the push ups properly, so she gets 50 more. She then starts making excuses that she can't do it so she gets sent to the back for a 'special lesson'. If I take it that usually means 50 push ups, sits ups, squat thrusts, 100 centre punches in horse stance, 20 star jumps, 50 jumping jacks and a couple of stress positions. This lasts 15 minutes and she does it all without complaint and she is hot and tired afterword because of the effort involved. I don't have to get annoyed at her, I just tell her and she does it.

So she can work hard, but chooses not to when she can get away with it.

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

Could be some connections between the particular person and the topics discussed on this thread http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=19893

However, at some point, you have to start to treat them like adults and not kids. Perhaps she is feeling like she doesn't want to be treated like a kid anymore.

How old is the junior?
The problem she is being treated like an adult and expected to train properly like an adult due to her rank, but she is too childish sometimes and wants to get away with not trying.

I may have explained the shouting bit rather badly, we don't stand there and scream at them or anything, generally we just have to tell them to do thier pushups, but when they start messing about again or not doing thier punishments or making excuses then we have to take on a sterner tone of voice and start to order them, its no different from an adult who may have to be spoken to more sternly to motivate them.

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

Perhaps she wants out and is setting up her rationalisations by acting lazy and indifferent.
She cut her leg from knee to top of thigh last week, 2 days later she was back at training and doing her best to not let her injury get in the way. She was asking what other exercises she could do so as not to hurt her leg.
She doesn't want out even though she may feel like that sometimes.
Simply put I think she doesn't want to put in the work because its harder than when she was a lower grade.

[Eliz]

She is 11 years old and she knows that we expect her to work hard but she is lazy. So she gets told to work harder and then she sulks and doesn't improve, so then she is told to do push ups and still she sulks and doesn't do the push ups properly, so she gets 50 more. She then starts making excuses that she can't do it so she gets sent to the back for a 'special lesson'. If I take it that usually means 50 push ups, sits ups, squat thrusts, 100 centre punches in horse stance, 20 star jumps, 50 jumping jacks and a couple of stress positions. This lasts 15 minutes and she does it all without complaint and she is hot and tired afterword because of the effort involved. I don't have to get annoyed at her, I just tell her and she does it.

So she can work hard, but chooses not to when she can get away with it.

Yea, I would be pretty miserable with that set up too. If a student doesn't want to be there, excuse them [permanently] and be done with it.

Perhaps yelling and forcing push-ups works to motivate some students. Clearly not all students. She doesn't want to be there, it is as simple as that. Why waste instructor/student time?

As for, "The Instructors hate Me," Where is my BS flag when I need it? That is the #1 reason kids will give when they want out of an activity. Sounds like she is trying to maneuver good ol' dad between herself and the instructors.

[Harlan]

Sounds pretty typical for an 11 year old. If it's one of those cases where dad is a 'hard case' (you WILL train)...it's the beginning of the teenage years and defining self. Dad could easily ruin his daughter, and their relationship by insisting she continue, but quitting isn't necessarily the answer.

Has he considered giving her an 'out'...like private training (since she doesn't seem to have a problem with Tang), or stating something like 'It's more important to me that you learn some MA vs. none.'

Negotiation.

[Kwon Pup Maze]

So what you are saying is that when a child misbehaves they can get away with it and shouldn't be told off? So a senior level student does something wrong and it can be allowed to slide so showing to all the other kids that they can get away with it too, result chaos.

I don't understand the relevance of this basic training bit but it seems like if you can't take a few harsh orders being barked at you then you are in the wrong place mate.



Nobody said anything about getting away with misbehaving. After teaching folks in the military, law enforcement, martial arts, and being a parent I can say that you get better results when you tell someone that they can be a better person by doing whats right. Showing them the right way and then saying how much they would be valued if they did the right thing. Yelling and physical punishment only gives you high blood pressure and the student tired muscles. What value are you to them now, what value are they to you now ? There focus on learning goes out the window at that point.

The reference to Basic Training is how you perceive the way these students should be training, much like old school military. Even the military has changed the way they teach now and include much of what I'm speaking of. Maybe the girl sees something in the way she is treated as something that she does not want to become. Never have I heard of another student being given authority to issue pushups. Only an Instructor should be doing that if anybody. I could see where that could be abused against students.

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

Some cool and groovy replies folks, thanks a bunch, I shall reply to the various statements in one go.

I think her main problem is that she doesn't like peer-pressure being put on her. The last 'special lesson' she got from me she worked very hard and then went to the front of the class and did well in her forms for the head instructor. This was on a different day to the incident I spoke about in my first post, where she was punished in front of the whole class, and had the instructor and another dan grade watching her - I was teaching the main class at the time so I gave her the push ups to begin with and then the other two dan grades took over with her when she started getting in a strop (does that word translate?).

It seems Elizabeth that you would punish the student by suspending them rather than punish in the lesson with push ups etc, or do you mean you would actually just drop the student? Isn't that giving up on that person. If one of your students started being difficult and struggling with the added responsibility of thier new higher rank wouldn't you be reluctant to show them the door, or is the idea that a bit of time away would make them realise what they are missing?

I think Harlan you have put forward some very good questions. The dad is very disciplined with his kids, but they are well behaved and do respect his authority, he has admitted that he is tougher on his own children than with others in class because he is thier dad and he doesn't want to be seen giving them an easy time. I think this daughter of his finds it harder to take general class punishment from him than another senior simply beacuse he is her dad.
The reason that as a 1st gup red belt he gets the chance to give out push ups ( and this now goes over to Kwon Bup Maze's comments) is down to the teaching structure of our class. Our classes are different from most other UKTSDF schools because gup grades can be given authority to give out push ups to lower ranking students.

Part of our class philosophy is that we all learn together and help each other. More experienced students are allowed to help newer students and so the there is a mentoring throughout the ranks. This helps greatly with the camaraderie amongst the students child and adult alike. Obviously there is supervision and instruction from the main instructors and the helping each other becomes part of the learning process rather than students being stuck with teaching when they shoudl be learning.
Becasue of the number of children in our main class and the fact we had few high ranking adults in the beginning, the instructors chose to give assitant authority to the three most promising adult students, me and two other gup grades. Two of us are now Dan grades the last (the dad) 1st Gup. Because we were given, and readily accepted, the chance to help teach the students we also needed to be given some authority over them. It simply wasn't practical for us to be tasked to help teach when required only to have a student turn around and refuse to listen because we weren't dan grades.

It's part of the requirement of reaching first dan to be able to teach a class without help or supervision, all that happened in our class is this was extended and became part of the general class structure rather than just a test requirement. Obviously our class structure is different from what most of you consider the norm but it has brought us nothing but success, our students never quarrel with each other, they are all friends and work together (which is a pretty class act as there are over 25 of them) and if there is any trouble it is quickly resolved and they are friends again afterwards. Not only that but this 'we are a team' attitude extends outside the club. In terms of training success our juniors are the best at gradings, and that is the honest truth.

While motivation and encouragement pay dividends sometimes discipline must be enforced.. to spare the rod is to spoil the child ...
Ive run out of time so will have to leave it there.

[Eliz]

It seems Elizabeth that you would punish the student by suspending them rather than punish in the lesson with push ups etc, or do you mean you would actually just drop the student? Isn't that giving up on that person. If one of your students started being difficult and struggling with the added responsibility of thier new higher rank wouldn't you be reluctant to show them the door, or is the idea that a bit of time away would make them realise what they are missing?


Neither/nor, really.

I am not a huge proponent of class time punishment. It takes time away from the students who come into learn and takes the focus off of MA's learning. While the young lady in your thread is sent off to the side, she has still managed to monopolize the time of an instructor.

Habitually lazy or passive/aggressive type behavior can be a little tough to address at times. I have 2 students who technically never do anything wrong, they just don't do anything right. Everything is just sort of half-assed. My new "gung-ho" assistant ( :rolleyes: ) will show a student the door for that. I usually just lay it out there - "You are here working, or you are not. Make a decision." They know they will not promote until their effort becomes more consistant. If they need a break from MA's, take a break. Whatever works.

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

Thats some good advice Elizabeth, I will keep that in mind. Cheers.