View Full Version : Who else thinks this is stupid?
AllanJGAnderson
03-09-2007, 17:03
http://www.northropgrumman.com/diversity/2007_beya.html
I don't think my rant is necissary, sine I think most think the same thing as I do about this kind of crap.
http://www.northropgrumman.com/diversity/2007_beya.html
I don't think my rant is necissary, sine I think most think the same thing as I do about this kind of crap.
I don't quite understand Allan, is there something here you are objecting to? This seems fairly innocuous.
I took a quick look at some of the winner's pedigrees, there are doctorates in engineering listed, I wouldn't doubt they do outstanding work.
Rasputin
03-09-2007, 17:33
I think that he is objecting to the fact that they are eligible for a special award just because of the color of their skin.
Doesn't bother me either way. I recognize the error in the system, but I choose to remove myself from it as much as possible.
I think that he is objecting to the fact that they are eligible for a special award just because of the color of their skin.
Doesn't bother me either way. I recognize the error in the system, but I choose to remove myself from it as much as possible.
I agree, if you are going to give awards like this you might as well give an award for the best Asian, Hispanic, Indian and Caucasian engineers.
I suspect this is something that was grandfathered in because of the historically under privileged situation of blacks and was maybe a way to promote education in their demographic.
Seems a bit trivial to be getting too upset about though.
AllanJGAnderson
03-09-2007, 18:02
Seems a bit trivial to be getting too upset about though.
I wouldn't say I'm 'upset', just curious as of to what everyone else thinks about the subject matter. I think it's stupid, very stupid. I think it's things like this that promote the 'them vs us' racialist mentalities, on a sub and consious level. Like how the was a commotion over having the fisrt super-bowl with 2 black coaches. I think it's a disturbing trend, that's all. Ms. Black America, BET, and various minority scholarships, I think it's all stupid, and I wanna know how other people feel. That's all.
I wouldn't say I'm 'upset', just curious as of to what everone else thinks about the subject matter. I think it's stupid, very stupid. I think it's things like this that promote the 'them vs us' racialist mentalities, on a sub and consious level.
I think you are right, but recognizing black doctorates in engineering is probably less stupid than say Miss Black America. If anything maybe it might encourage a few more black kids to do better academically.
I am hard pressed to condemn any award that recognizes academic and scientific achievement at a high level.
AllanJGAnderson
03-09-2007, 18:26
I am hard pressed to condemn any award that recognizes academic and scientific achievement at a high level.
Agreed, but I think the merits of ones acheivements should carry them, not the fact that they are black, white, asia, arab etc. . . That is where the stupidity comes in.
I disagree with it.
“"Northrop Grumman is very proud of the talents and accomplishments of these six employees. Their achievements are valued greatly within the company and these awards are well-deserved,” said Ian Ziskin, corporate vice president and chief human resources and administrative officer for Northrop Grumman."
They have to be talented and accomplished to receive the award. The award is "well-deserved." The number one criteria for awarding this? You must be black, which has NOTHING to do with being talented or accomplished.
I can see the awards board sitting down to review the recommendations. "O.K., here we go folks; we have 50 applicants; we have to pick the top ten. First, is there anyone who was recommended who is not black? Toss their recommendations - I don't care how talented and accomplished they are; if they aren't black, they don't come up on the stage."
"Here's one, sir - her mother is black, but her father is white." "Well, now, let's check the rules; ah, she is good to go - 50% black is black enough."
"What about this one, sir? Father is black, mother is half-white, half-Asian."
Am I making my point?
Jeff Cook
David Craik
03-09-2007, 18:29
I agree with Allan. I think such nonsense only further serves to divide us. I think we are at the point where we can recognize excellent engineers, outstanding students, exceptional Americans, and superlative leaders without defining their race.
I became rather disillusioned with this bit on recruiting duty..I would refer outstanding applicants (ROTC honor grad + football team captain + straight A college student, etc.) to the Officer Selection Officer, yet they would get turned down because they were White. However if I had a Black female or Indian with far lesser qualifications I could write my own ticket as a 'hero'.
I think such things are insulting to various ethinic groups rather than helpful. Why is a Black engineer in a different category than a White one, an Inuit one, a Japanese one, or one from Neptune? An outstanding candidate is an outstanding candidate, period. There is no need for 'Black History Month', Rosa Parks made history with her bravery, not her race.
I think it's all a bunch of crap. If men are really created equal and judged only by the 'content of their character' as Dr. King said, then whether they have black, yellow, brown, or white skin shouldn't make a damn bit of difference.
Dennis Monk
03-09-2007, 18:31
I for one am all for positively promoting anti-stereo types. It also pleases me to see that people (any people) are recognized for their hard work and dedication.
I do have a problem with (insert particular racial group here) awards, TV channels, segregated proms, school reunions, etc...
Imagine the repercussions when there is one of these that says "white" in front of it.
And yes, I think that would be just as stupid as to have well.
I think such things are insulting to various ethinic groups rather than helpful. Why is a Black engineer in a different category than a White one, an Inuit one, a Japanese one, or one from Neptune? An outstanding candidate is an outstanding candidate, period. There is no need for 'Black History Month', Rosa Parks made history with her bravery, not her race.
Now you raise a good point, an award like that also has a flip side as in "well you couldn't quite cut it if you were white so we set up a special recognition for you." So this is a bit insulting even to the race being recognized.
Now looking at those winners I don't think that is the case because they seem incredibly accomplished...but that is stigma is there.
elder999
03-09-2007, 19:00
I agree, if you are going to give awards like this you might as well give an award for the best Asian, Hispanic, Indian and Caucasian engineers.
I suspect this is something that was grandfathered in because of the historically under privileged situation of blacks and was maybe a way to promote education in their demographic.
Seems a bit trivial to be getting too upset about though.
:laugh:
It's actually quite common. No biggie.
Have a look here, (http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/oeod/Groups/) just as an example.
Not so sure about "Caucasian," anyway...though there are engineering and physics (and probably chemistry and lots of other fields) societies for Italian Americans, Irish Americans, Russian Americans-guess some of them are "Caucasian"..:laugh: :laugh:
Don't belong to any of the groups that I'm "qualified" for, and there is no Society for African American Nuclear Engineers-unless you count those times that I take a magazine to the bathroom as meetings.....
Hey, though-if David Craik comes to work at the Lab when he retires from the Corps, and I'm back there, I'll join the African American Diversity group with him...Lord knows they've been after me to do so for long enough:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :toast:
Oh, and David-I think you're wrong about Black History Month..
:laugh:
It's actually quite common. No biggie.
Have a look here, (http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/oeod/Groups/) just as an example.
Not so sure about "Caucasian," anyway...though there are engineering and physics (and probably chemistry and lots of other fields) societies for Italian Americans, Irish Americans, Russian Americans-guess some of them are "Caucasian"..:laugh: :laugh:
Don't belong to any of the groups that I'm "qualified" for, and there is no Society for African American Nuclear Engineers-unless you count those times that I take a magazine to the bathroom as meetings.....
Hey, though-if David Craik comes to work at the Lab when he retires from the Corps, and I'm back there, I'll join the African American Diversity group with him...Lord knows they've been after me to so for long enough:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :toast:
Ahhh... thanks Aaron, so there are awards for different ethnicities... then like you say this is no big deal.
Gordon Nore
03-09-2007, 21:31
I don't see what this corporation is doing as terribly wrong. I perused their website and found this link:
http://www.northropgrumman.com/diversity/outreach.html
The Black Engineer of the Year Awards appear to be part of a broader strategy to enourage potential candidates to pursue careers in the engineering fields. When a corporation sends a representative to high schools and colleges with armfuls of brochures depicting predominently Caucasian people in positions of responsiblity, that makes an impression. When the same recruiter can show Blacks, Latinos, etc., have excelled in the corporation that too makes an impression.
The SuperBowl was mentioned in this discussion. In a way I agree with Allan, too much has been made of that fact that teams led by two African-American managers squared off. To acknowledge the event as a moment in history is fine. To recognize the event as the moment in history that race was no longer in question, and we all came together as one, is silly.
Miss Black America. I recall that many years ago the pageant aired once only (I believe) on US network television. When that pageant started, in 1969, I'm betting there had been few or no Black contestants in Miss America. (I'm pretty sure the Miss Canada had few or no Blacks, Asians, or Natives in it.) Look how much has changed since then. For one, African-American contestants have won Miss America pageants. Two. In 1980, Miss Black America gave Halle Berry to the world -- a cultural contribution that is not to be argued with.
From there we might argue that Miss Black America is therefore redundant -- it's broken a barrier and thus served its purpose. (Personally, I think all beauty pagents are stupid -- whether they're called scholarship programs or whatever.) However, some people obviously want it. Sponsors are willing to pay for it. Just like other sponsors will pay for the other Miss America, or Miss Canada, or Miss Universe. That's just the way of things.
Which leads us to BET -- which is provided on my basic cable here in Toronto. I've scarcely watched it for no reason in particular. Obviously a lot of people do watch it. Clearly, its sponsors see a market, or they wouldn't be paying for it. Now I also don't watch the golf channel. Nor do I watch a channel we have here called Speed -- which is about things that go fast, like race cars and bikes. I also don't watch the fishing channel. I'm guessing there are very few Blacks depicted in the programming on these channels. Does that mean that White viewers who do watch them are racist? Of course not. No more than it's a racist act to sit down and watch a Superbowl in which both the managers are White.
Black History Month. I'm a fan. I've been celebrating it in my school libraries for five years. It has stimulated the publication of a wider range of books that I can show my children. Books that look like all the children I teach, written by authors that look like all the children I teach. The popularity of Black History Month has spread beyond US borders and has challenged publishers and authors tell the story of black history in a Canadian context as well. Every year I learn something new to add to my overall knowledge of history.
I worry sometimes about tokenism, the notion that once the month is over, we will resort to telling regular history. But it is also a tool that has helped me teach children that there is no objective reality, that history is changed by who tells it and who hears it.
Rosa Parks. Year after year she and Harriet Tubman gain legions of fans among school children because they are wonderful courageous stories that were not always taught. I'm sure these stories have been santitized and embellished for public consumption, but they are no more offensive than, "Father, I cannot tell a lie. I chopped down that cherry tree." Such stories bring hope to all children without teaching them to 'hate Whitey.'
Race is part of the Rosa Parks story. Agreed, she was a brave individual. I would not be able to tell the story of bravery without including the fact that she was black. It would have no resonance whatsoever.
Getting back to main topic, do members of various groups find this Black Engineering Award offensive? Of course they do. There is no reason to assume that Blacks, or Latinos, or Asians, etc. will agree on anything within their given groups, any more than Whites will. I respect the effort of any agency, corporate or public, to endeavour to work towards full and equality. I would also add that this appears to be an initiative within the company, not an affirmative action program imposed upon the employer by a government, which is an entirely different issue.
Sorry. Long post -- it may even be redundant by now, as I've spent about an hour on it.
GRWMMAolddude
03-09-2007, 23:33
Gosh - don't know if I want to wade in here on this controversial issue but what the heck. Having worked in the defense industry for 30 years I think I can add something.
Historically this industry has been an "old [white] boys network". Very few women or minorities relative to the regional population mix were in leadership positions. The few that were usually became exceptional leaders based on my experience (see what I think the reason is later in this paragraph). So the question was why is the leadership demographic so different from the population demographic? The general answer is that if a potential candidate sees that for them to succeed they have to break into a perceived old boys network they decide to say forget it and look elsewhere. This results in only a few non-white males, those who are sufficiently motivated to succeed despite the apparent roadblock, applying for jobs (this is why once these folks are working they usually are highly successful by the mere fact they do not let apparent roadblocks get in their way). For companies to attract talent it is essential that this very outdated stereotype (hopefully true) of the old boys club is actively countered. Thus the very public, some times perceived as "over the top" campaign for diversity promotion.
So why such a big push for more engineers? Bottom line is the US is rapidly falling behind countries like China and India in training and retaining new engineers. To fix this erosion (eventually could result in threats to our national security) we need to kick up our game in math and science education as well as make sure that ALL qualified, security clear-able folks are given the opportunity to contribute without fear of a perceived cultural bias. This article (http://www.raytheon.com/feature/stellent/groups/public/documents/content/cms04_020857.pdf) by our CEO has some interesting points on this.
Just some thoughts to stir the pot. :stirthepot:
Cheers
Jeff - a white male protestant engineer turned program manager (aka useless bureaucrat)
AllanJGAnderson
03-09-2007, 23:46
When a corporation sends a representative to high schools and colleges with armfuls of brochures depicting predominently Caucasian people in positions of responsiblity, that makes an impression. When the same recruiter can show Blacks, Latinos, etc., have excelled in the corporation that too makes an impression..
But who is impressed by a man who can say, I won this award, not based on my ability but based on my race. If he's truly qualified, why doesn't he get a reward for something EVERYONE else competes in. The whole Black Engineers Award strike me as patronizing to the engineers, as though to say 'You can't even compete with those guys, so you get your own cute little pagent'. That's how it reads to me. I think if a student or applicant is viewing a brochure of a school or field that is prodimantly white and there are a bunch of white guys on it, it's not racist, it's accurate. AND IF he or she is intimidated by a brochure because a white guys on the cover, maybe he or she should try and overcome their OWN racism and bias.
Which leads us to BET -- which is provided on my basic cable here in Toronto. I've scarcely watched it for no reason in particular. Obviously a lot of people do watch it. Clearly, its sponsors see a market, or they wouldn't be paying for it. Now I also don't watch the golf channel. Nor do I watch a channel we have here called Speed -- which is about things that go fast, like race cars and bikes. I also don't watch the fishing channel. I'm guessing there are very few Blacks depicted in the programming on these channels. Does that mean that White viewers who do watch them are racist? Of course not. No more than it's a racist act to sit down and watch a Superbowl in which both the managers are White.
The double standard is what ergs me, because if there was a WET, or a Miss White America, the ACLU would be throwing daggers.
GRWMMAolddude
03-10-2007, 00:08
I think if a student or applicant is viewing a brochure of a school or field that is predominantly white and there are a bunch of white guys on it, it's not racist, it's accurate. AND IF he or she is intimidated by a brochure because a white guys on the cover, maybe he or she should try and overcome their OWN racism and bias.
I don't think the corporate diversity programs have anything to do with "social justice" as the root cause. It is all about "selling" the employment opportunity to perspective applicants. If a white male sees non "white males" on the cover he will think nothing of it. If someone other than a white male sees this they may stop to wonder, causing them to potentially "shop" elsewhere. Look at all product packaging today. It is the same issue.
I don't see anything prejudicial or racist (or reverse racist) about it. It's just business.
GRWMMAolddude
03-10-2007, 00:42
... To fix this erosion (eventually could result in threats to our national security) we need to kick up our game in math and science education ...
If you don't see a dangerous trend first look at these results (http://icpc.baylor.edu/past/icpc96/Finals/Standings.html) from 1996 from the International Programing Collegiate Contest, then the results (http://icpc.baylor.edu/past/icpc2006/Finals/Standings.html) from 2006. :eek:
Dangerous trend given our ever increasing dependence on computer technology.
This might be off topic but something many folks are VERY worried about.
I think I would be a little upset if a company awarded me an award with a race requirement, even more so if I was at the top of my field. It would medoctratize (whatever - Lessen) the award somehow. Kind of like saying... "Your not the best engineer, just the best black one". I would feel that my superiors felt that my race somehow limited me from competing with the other races.
olddude - Racism is racism, regardless of which direction it runs. Sorry, one of my pet peeves.
David Craik
03-10-2007, 06:33
Oh, and David-I think you're wrong about Black History Month..
How so, Jeff? I would be interested to hear your views. To me, history is history. A person of historic interest is just that, regardless of their race. No race operates in a vacuum in as diverse a country as the United States. What affects one affects all, only sometimes in different ways.
And I'd love to join your diversity group. Could we wear matching dashikis, or would that look gay? :D
Race is part of the Rosa Parks story. Agreed, she was a brave individual. I would not be able to tell the story of bravery without including the fact that she was black. It would have no resonance whatsoever.
It is part of it, and without an understanding of the culture of oppression and segregation at the time the story becomes meaningless. However, she didn't defy racism because she was black. She defied it because she and those of her race were being wrongly oppressed. This is a fine distinction, but if you replaced 'black' as the object of the segregation with 'asian', 'hispanic', or even 'white' and she was of that ethnic group would she not have done the same? Should she not serve as an inspiration to all races?
Here's a thought, let's teach and read about Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, and Dr. King all year long; right alongside Abe Lincoln, Stonewall Jackson, and Henry Ford! Wait a minute, I think we do that. I distinctly recall these black Americans being in my high school U.S. history book right along with the white dudes. We didn't skip over them either, saying they would be covered when the next Black History Month rolls around.
It is difficult to explain my point, but it is my feeling that the history of one is the history of all in this country. We are all Americans. I don't believe there's black history, white history, Italian and Irish Immigrant history, or Armenian American history. It's all U.S. history. If you separate the black, white, brown, red, and yellow threads from the fabric of this nation you no longer have the whole cloth of which our country is made, you only have a bunch of little piles of string. Okay, that's my obscure metaphor of the day. :)
The only ethnic group I can see having a claim to a 'separate history' is the Indians, as theirs stretches far back to long before the white man (or anyone else) ever showed up.
I do wish people would quit using the term "reverse racism" too. Racism is racism. There's no more such a thing as "reverse racism" as there is "reverse homicide".
Back on topic, I would be interested to know:
a) Does Northrop Grumman have a 'White Engineer of the Year' award? Of course not - that would be racist, right?
b) Is there a generic 'Engineer of the Year' award, and are all races eligible? I'm betting they probably do, in which case I don't see the point of a black, white, or martian one.
Didn't we as a nation decide that the notion of "separate but equal" was ludicrous ages ago? How is having racially separated categories for merit-based competitions - or indeed for history - any different?
This guy is interesting:
http://www.northropgrumman.com/images/diversity/2007_beya/g_bush.jpg
BEYA recoginized him with a "Modern-Day Technology Leaders Award". Now, either he's like 10% black, or any race can be recognized by BEYA...which then begs the question of what the purpose of BEYA is in the first place.
Rasputin
03-10-2007, 07:28
There's no more such a thing as "reverse racism" as there is "reverse homicide".
In Soviet Union, victim kills YOU.
elder999
03-10-2007, 08:33
Well, I’ll get to the somewhat tangential topic of Black History Month in moment, but a few things should be addressed first.
My parents marched on Selma and Washington, and knew Rosa Parks-when I met her as a child, Mrs. Parks told me that she was tired to the bone that day she stayed in her seat, and tired of the BS, and just didn’t have it in her to get up and stand. It wouldn’t have been brave at all if she weren’t black-it would have been simple human dignity.
In reference to the fellow that David has pointed out, and Jeff’s post on the variations of race, I’ll only add that what I sometimes derisively call “EIEIO” paperwork (EEO) is voluntary-one can choose to elect any racial designation for oneself, or "other" or none at all. Only recently, and somewhat rarely still, does one have the option of designating “other,” though, or “mixed race” or more than one race. For someone like myself-legally “half” Indian (which half?, I wondered as a child) “half” black, and truly a bit more “mixed (up?) than that, it can be a bit of a quandary for others-especially with an appearance like mine-I’ve been variously identified with, and accepted by Polynesians, Indians and Black people, as well as mistaken for Hispanic and thought to be “part Thai,” ala Tiger Woods. It’s even sillier for my kids, whose mother was raised by a mother of Italian heritage and father of Celtic heritage, but who was adopted and probably Germanic or Jewish. My kids look…well., they’re beautiful, but somewhat Indian and mostly just…well, white. My son even has blue eyes-but that didn’t keep him from competing in a First Nations event……nor should it have.
As for Black History Month, well here’s a funny story:
About 15 years ago, I was working in the training department at a commercial nuclear power plant, back in New York. I was partnered with a white guy (Irish American? Swedish American? Don’t know, never cared) named Bob, who was and is simply one of the most upright, kind and completely unflappable people I’ve ever dealt with. We had lots of fun conversations in what was essentially a boring job-at least, it was supposed to be boring; when it was exciting, there was usually something terribly wrong.
Anyway, one day in late January-and remember, this is winter in upstate N.Y., cold to rival Alaska-I jokingly said, And what is up with giving us February? I know what it was, “they want their own month now? Let’s give ‘em February, and there’ll be no marching….” Bob looks right at me, deadpan, doesn’t miss a beat and in the utmost sincerity says, “It’s not your Black History Month; it’s all of ours.”
To which I could only say he was right-he was, like me, usually right….
More seriously, an uncle of mine used to complain, “Why do we get the shortest month?” Why, indeed?
It was Carter G. Woodson, a black historian educated at Harvard and the University of Chicago who initiated what would become Black History month with “Negro History Week,” in 1926. He used to complain about it, too. He hoped the event would eventually put itself out of business by promoting the respectful integration of Negro history with everyone else’s history. In many ways, black history studies have made a lot of progress since those days. In many other ways, we’re still waiting.
Woodson chose the second week of February so the big week would coincide with the birthdays of Frederick Douglas and Abraham Lincoln. If Frederick Douglas, who escaped slavery to become a pioneer journalist, diplomat and advisor (though somewhat adversarial one) to Lincoln, were anywhere near as well integrated into American history studies as he is into "African American" history studies, there would be no need for Black History Month.
And the fact is, most Americans have at least a vague idea of who Douglas, G.W. Carver and Crispus Attucs were, and that’s about as far as it goes-they may have heard of these men, or even remember them in detail, but what they really remember is Paul Revere, and “two if by sea,” even though it didn’t quite happen that way. Sadly, there are numerous other African Americans throughout American history who made substantial contributions to America, and odds are good that without Black History Month, many of you would never know about them..
Fact is, there isn’t one aspect of today’s American culture that hasn’t been informed by or some form of a response to the presence of “African Americans” (and yes, that is a challenge), in spite of my famous joke about convening a meeting of ‘the Society of African American Nuclear Engineer..”(you know, as I’m heading off to sit on the toilet….)-and yes, along with my usually more noted American Indian heritage, mine is essentially an Anglicized Ashanti name, and I am descended from freed slaves-who went on to rather famous (at the time) success in shipping, agriculture and commerce, though the family claims an ancestor was burned alive in the slave riots of New York in 1712…(as an aside, the man was probably not an ancestor at all-“Cuffee” in addition to being an Irish family name, is also how we came to spell a rather common African first name (Kofi) which means “born on Friday,” and was adopted as my family name by my ancestors in honor of their father, rather than simply keeping their former owner’s name-otherwise I might be “Aaron J. Slocum”)..At any rate, Paul Cuffee (http://www.bridgew.edu/HOBA/Cuffee.cfm), the engineer Elijah McCoy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah_McCoy), Paul Robeson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Robeson) and the Robeson Riots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peekskill_Riots) are all things you probably didn’t read about in a high school American history class, but maybe you should have…..
When Morgan Freeman said that Black History Month was ridiculous, for much the same reasons as yours, David, he offered a delightfully enlightened viewpoint on how to perceive people as individuals, but as far as eliminating racism goes-and it still exists-I’ve never known a problem to go away by not talking about it. The French sort of tried that: they swept their race problems under the rug in the spirit of “liberte, egalite, fraternite”, and refused, as a matter of French law, to recognize that different races exist, which made it hard, if not impossible, for the law to deal with decades of racial discrimination. Long standing racial and ethnic grievances led to the recent uprisings by poor, largely unemployed Arab and African youths in towns across France, just as they led to riots throughout American history.
We Amercians need not, and should not run from our own racial past. It is very much a part of our turbulent history, from the great debate the Framers of the Constitution staged over how to count slaves for purposes of reapportionment (“three-fifths of a person”??) to today’s first black woman Secretary of State, Condoleeza Rice.
The bad old days of separtism tried to erase black folks from American history. Black History Month , if only for that month, puts us back in. It is not “:ridiculous” to study the tragedies and triumphs of the many, many people who made this country what it is. They have a lot to teach us. We need Black History Month. We don’t need to limit it to blacks only-or to only a month.
Oh, here's me and the boy at his wedding. Handsome fellas, ain't we?:laugh:
David Craik
03-10-2007, 13:59
We don’t need to limit it to blacks only-or to only a month.
Precisely my point. If we are remiss in teaching about black people who made history, then they should be included in OUR HISTORY. Our racial past should not be ignored or put into a box under the heading "black history". It is all of our history..shameful, yes, but it is U.S. history just the same.
I think you missed my point about Rosa.
Anyway, perhaps one day we will get away from this 'black thing, white thing' frame of mind and will one day be simply people. In the meantime I don't care, I think it's a lot of devisive and separative silliness.
I wouldn't say I'm 'upset', just curious as of to what everyone else thinks about the subject matter. I think it's stupid, very stupid. I think it's things like this that promote the 'them vs us' racialist mentalities, on a sub and consious level. Like how the was a commotion over having the fisrt super-bowl with 2 black coaches. I think it's a disturbing trend, that's all. Ms. Black America, BET, and various minority scholarships, I think it's all stupid, and I wanna know how other people feel. That's all.
The realization that we are all basically the same human beings, who seek happiness and try to avoid suffering, is very helpful in developing a sense of brotherhood and sisterhood; a warm feeling of love and compassion for others.
elder999
03-10-2007, 14:17
Precisely my point. If we are remiss in teaching about black people who made history, then they should be included in OUR HISTORY.
But it often isn't, is it?
Our racial past should not be ignored or put into a box under the heading "black history". It is all of our history..shameful, yes, but it is U.S. history just the same.
Agreed-in fact, I largely agree with you, with a few caveats...
I think you missed my point about Rosa.
No, David, I get your point. Sadly, though, quite a few people in this country-"white" and "black"- would miss your point, and do.
Anyway, perhaps one day we will get away from this 'black thing, white thing' frame of mind and will one day be simply people. In the meantime I don't care, I think it's a lot of devisive and separative silliness.
I largely don't care myself, and also think it's often a lot of divisive and separative silliness. In fact, the only thing more divisive and silly is thinking that it's unfair in some way. What if "they" did have a "White Engineer of the Year," or a "White History Month?" Aside from there being no such thing as a "white race," or a black one for that matter....:laugh:
I have no problem with people who show pride and celebrate their ethnicity. But in the area of awards, I believe the rewward should be gender and race neutral.
I work for the State of PA. Every month in my e-mail I am told we are celebrating "Fill in Race" Heritage month. While this is fine, the sheer number of them becomes numbing, like who gives a ----. We have had asian american, hispanic american, black american, asian-pacific american, native american, italian american, irish american, etc. Then of course we celebrate women, gays, the disabled. I mean it is getting truly silly. I'm waiting for red haired-blue and brown eyed left handed black amer asian hispanic giant month. Try to fit that on a banner.
Peace
Dennis
David Craik
03-10-2007, 20:51
What if "they" did have a "White Engineer of the Year," or a "White History Month?" Aside from there being no such thing as a "white race," or a black one for that matter....:laugh:
I would think it equally ridiculous, as I think you would too, Jeff. I haven't run across many whites that want such things, though.
I don't think it's so much 'unfair' as it is 'unneccesary' and 'odd'. I think if I won BEYA yet not EYA it would seem more of a validiation of corporate racism or my own professional inferiority (as an engineer, not because I'm "black") than if there was no BEYA. Think I'd rather simply be surpassed by whoever won than given a token and pretty insulting award which lets me know that although I'm not the best, I'm at least "the best black guy". And if I won the 'Engineer of the Year', my 'Black Engineer of the Year' award would seem a bit superfluous, would it not?
Gordon brought up a good example with the Black Miss America thing. Black women compete in and have won the Miss America pageant, so what is the purpose of one which excludes all but one race? Not to mention the fact that if there was a "White Miss America" pageant or a "United Caucasian College Fund" there would be friggin' riots in the streets.
Like you, I don't care much about it. I think it's silly, but then I find a helluva lot of Stateside things silly these days. Such trifles are rather negligible when one could be lying in a mortar hole somewhere. But, Northrop-Grumman is free to do whatever they like, it's a free country. I don't think such things futher the equality of people however. I come from a country where repression of various ethnic groups made 1960's Selma seem enlightened, so I perhaps have a different view of what constitutes 'equality'. You are very likely the most intelligent, educated individual I've ever spoken to, the fact that you are a black man never occurs to me, nor should it, because it's immaterial. I think you should win 'Mad Scientist of the Year' though, not just 'Black Mad Scientist of the Year'. :D
But it often isn't, is it?
Then that should be remedied, once again. Though if I wrote the history books I don't think many folk would like what I have to say, and most of those folk would just happen to be white, like myself.
Jeff is black??? Damn, he looks a little brownish to me; maybe I am color-blind. ;)
I vote for fixing American History as it is taught. There are multiple races misrepresented in American History (including white), NOT just one. To isolate one of many to make calendars, posters, banners and awards seems to be insulting on many levels.
Validation doesn't make an individual or group "more equal" - it further highlights an artificial division. It seems a bit paradoxical.
In the microcommunity I live in - the military - I have seen great changes in equality in the last 18 years. When I enlisted I saw a call for blacks to be promoted to SGT/E5 come down from higher headquarters (they decided there were not enough black NCOs). We had no qualified black E4s to promote. That was unacceptable, so the leadership decided to waive the academic and leadership schooling requirements for promotion. A lot of qualified non-blacks (who were awaiting their turn) were passed over for promotion so that less qualified people could not only be promoted, but also be PUT IN CHARGE of those more qualified to hold the leadership positions. Needless to say, this set the new uneducated leaders up for failure. It greatly impacted retention for all races. It proved to be a lose-lose action. It was a big shot in the nuts to our leadership. They learned their lesson and adjusted accordingly. They created funding and programs to help ALL soldiers, regardless of race, get their GEDs and further their civilian education. They increased NCO leadership school seats so ALL qualified soldiers could attend. Now that funding for military schools is restricted again, we have soldiers competing for school slots based upon everything BUT race - and no one is complaining. Can't this model be applied in the civilian sector? And if it has been, why is it not working?
Jeff Cook
elder999
03-11-2007, 09:28
I would think it equally ridiculous, as I think you would too, Jeff. I haven't run across many whites that want such things, though.
I don't think it's so much 'unfair' as it is 'unneccesary' and 'odd'. I think if I won BEYA yet not EYA it would seem more of a validiation of corporate racism or my own professional inferiority (as an engineer, not because I'm "black") than if there was no BEYA. Think I'd rather simply be surpassed by whoever won than given a token and pretty insulting award which lets me know that although I'm not the best, I'm at least "the best black guy". And if I won the 'Engineer of the Year', my 'Black Engineer of the Year' award would seem a bit superfluous, would it not?
Okay, but there seems to be a basic misunderstanding about how these things work. I can't really say about Northrup Grumman, though I could probably find out, but, as I said before, self-identification of race is completely voluntary and arbitrary, as is participation in race/gender/sexual orientation/disabled/veteran/fill-in the blank associated diversity groups. Generally, the pool for awards such as these is the participants in those particular groups. If someone has taken the same position as I have, and does not participate in any of those groups, they are not eligible for the award, in spite of their obvious (or not so obvious) racial/gender/sexual, etc. qualification
The real purpose of most of these groups has already been covered pretty well by Jeff Guild, though I will add that another part of it is to encourage young people of various backgrounds to consider pursuing the associated careers-there are not a lot of black people working in any capacity at Los Alamos National Lab, nor, as I’ve pointed out, a lot of black nuclear engineers. Were I a member, part of the reason would be to go to black/Indian/Pacific Asian (well, I could belong to all three, couldn’t I?) high school students and encourage them to consider engineering, nuclear or otherwise, and or physics, and or careers at the Lab, rather than, say, sports careers or dealing drugs-just to utilize a couple of popular and stereotypical choices in some areas…
As far as scholarships go, well- here (https://www.niaf.org/scholarships/index.asp) is an “Italian American” scholarship, and here (
http://www.irishsummerfest.org/html/scholar.html) is an Irish American scholarship, and here (http://www.free-4u.com/chinese_american_scholarships.htm)
is a whole list of “Chinese American” scholarships, and here (http://www.jacl.org/leadership_development_5.php) is a Japanese American scholarship…..I’ll avoid muddying the waters with a Jewish one……couldn’t find a Swedish or Scottish one, though…won’t find a “white” or “Caucasian” one, except as a sort of backlash, because “Caucasian” and “white” aren’t really matters of racial or cultural background, unlike “Italian American, “ or “Irish American,” both backgrounds that check the “white” box on the EIEIO form….
Pageants are silly, but also involve scholarships, substantial rewards, and occasionally have jump-started a career in show business. There’s a Miss Asian American (http://www.missasianamerica.com/), a Miss Hispanic American Unity (no link), a Maid of Erin (http://www.detroitirish.org/uis/maid_erin/index.html) pageant, a Miss Italian American (http://www.giuseppetaormina.com/bqi.htm)pageant…..you get the idea. How about this, though? There’s a Miss Native American Pageant, and, in 1998, Miss Navajo Nation was Radmilla Cody, who grew up in her grandmother’s Hogan, “undid” a sheep for the talent portion of the pageant, speaks fluent Navajo, is a gifted singer who won the Native American music Grammy in 2002, and happens to be half (which half?) black. You should have been around for the grumbling this engendered amongst some Navajos-the whole blood quota thing that’s been imposed upon tribes by the government, and used by the tribes themselves, has become a real instrument of ugliness-
For diversity in general, we have music styles and radio stations and programs in a variety of formats and languages. Why is it okay to have “black music” (though there’s always been and continues to be a great deal of “cross over”) but not “black” anything else? And who is it that’s responsible for making the distinction-those who make the music, those who listen to it, or those who market it? The same could be said for genres of fiction- Richard Wright and James Baldwin come to mind, but there’s also the somewhat new genre of so-called “ghetto novels.”
Again, I have to say that the only thing sillier than some of these distinctions is letting them in any way concern you. It’s sort of like insisting on flying a naval flag over a non-naval building-obviously stupid, but…who really cares? And what does it really say about them if they do?
You are very likely the most intelligent, educated individual I've ever spoken to, the fact that you are a black man never occurs to me, nor should it, because it's immaterial.
God, David, I'm blushing again..(no, that's not a joke: I blush in technicolor!:embarrass :laugh: ) Thank-you.I'll just add that you're one of the most intelligent individuals I have the privilege of knowing, and there's a lot to be said for your education as well. I'm surrounded by a variety of donkeys with encyclopedias on their backs-of all races-with all that education, they're still jackasses....:laugh:
I think you should win 'Mad Scientist of the Year' though, not just 'Black Mad Scientist of the Year'. :D
Already won three Cracked Globes(Also known as the Fools, I'll Destroy You Award) :laugh: .....not eligible for that other award, because, well, like I said, I don't participate in that group, or any of the others I'm eligible for....(think I'd be the sole member of the Society of African American Mad Scientists, anyway.....)
I don't think defining and rewarding based on color is silly as much as it makes me sad that people feel a need to define themselves by the amount of pigmentation in their skin. However, I am glad that I live in country where people can define (and reward) themselves as they choose. Perhaps that is the ultimate expression of freedom.
I'm also grateful for the ethnic neighborhoods which define the big cities. My Grandmother's house was on the border between the Italian and German neighborhoods in Pittsburgh, PA. I spent a fair amount of time there growing up. And depending on what was happening, we would attend Mass at either the Italian or German Catholic churches which were both within walking distance (nothing says Grandma's house to me like Church bells, but I digress :laugh: ). I didn't spend as much time as I should have listening to priest because I was busy comparing and contrasting the archtecture and the different art styles of the decorations. I also love walking through San Francisco's and Oakland's Chinatown Districts and San Francisco's Mission (Hispanic) District. I also love the Victorian gingerbread houses of San Francisco. I'd hate to loose that because some people equate ethnic equality with everything being the same.
The whole "history month" thing used to annoy me until on of my friends drug me into a Black History lecture given by one of the Tuskegee Airmen ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Airmen ) and I learned what a limited view of American History I really have. Now history months have become an excuse for me to learn about stuff I didn't know before and so I kinda like it :o . Not to mention, I get sent links to cool websites that I would probably never visit on my own, such as:
http://www.hq.usace.army.mil/history/Vignettes/Vignetteindex.htm
and I have an excuse for visiting them :cool2: .
But, I hope that we in the US can get to a point where all of our history is reconized and celebrated and there won't be a need to history months. I hope that "history months" are a stepping stone on the road to that.
Sorry for the long rambling post - I didn't plan it very well.
P.S. I forgot to mention the Russian District by the Presidio and probably several others too. Did I mention I love living in San Francisco :)
Jeff, allowing others to express their racial/ethnic/cultural identity through music, art, writing, cuisine, etc. is a WHOLE lot different than giving somebody an award or scholarship where one of the main criteria is the color of skin. An award looks darn good on a resume when you are competing with equals for the same job - equal in everything but color. Of course, the economic leg-up that a scholarship one can get is obviously of financial advantage.
I'm afraid I am not convinced yet that your comparison is valid.
Geographical/demographical scholarships are another thing, however. Scholarships given to a school on the reservation are obviously going to be awarded to a Native American - but not because they are Native American. The probability of an African-American student getting a scholarship at a mostly-black school is also quite higher - due to demographics, not the color of the skin of the recipient.
Jeff Cook
elder999
03-11-2007, 19:02
Jeff, allowing others to express their racial/ethnic/cultural identity through music, art, writing, cuisine, etc. is a WHOLE lot different than giving somebody an award or scholarship where one of the main criteria is the color of skin.
And I'll say it again-there's nothing at all -save your own pride, sense of self, or just integrity (if it weren't true[/]; I don't know or care that it isn't) preventing you from saying that your grandmother was black, and identifying yourself as such, and thus becoming eligible-in spite of the "color" of your skin. Take another look at my son-he's equally eligible for scholarships offered to Indians and blacks, but the "color" of his skin doesn't exactly match either of them. [i]Legally, he's 1/4 Indian: 1/8 Shinnecock from my father, and 1/8 Shoshone from my mother-just as I am legally 1/2 (which half?:laugh:). This actually made him "Indian enough" for a full boat ride to Dartmouth, which was originally founded as an Indian school. Legally, he's 1/4 black. Both are more than sufficient for him to argue his identification with either, and if I were to have identified myself as either as a matter of course, he could not only claim them, but claim to be 1/2 black, or 1/2 Indian. THis is all, obviously, rather convoluted and silly (even more so when you consider the history of mixing on my father's side)-which is exactly my point. If it bothers you so much that there are "black" scholarships, identify your children as "black" on the EIEIO forms, and get some of that dough...it might feel wrong, or seem wrong, or even be wrong, but there's nothing illegal or fraudulent about it, as the classifications, and choices to identify with them, are completely arbitrary, appearances and perceptions to the contrary notwithstanding.This could, of course, be the very best way to do away with such distinctions, but it's never going to happen...
Another funny story: I was doing some genealogical and legal research in the Library of Congress, as was this older white woman at the carol next to mine. At one point, looking over some papers, she paled, and almost shrieked: "Black??!" and promptly passed out.
An award looks darn good on a resume when you are competing with equals for the same job - equal in everything but color. Of course, the economic leg-up that a scholarship one can get is obviously of financial advantage
Some awards do.If the attitudes displayed by some of you towards the Black Engineer of the Year are shared by prospective employers, what advantage does it truly offer? The same might be said of scholarships-in spite of the intense competition sometimes involved, if the employer values the ethic of someone who washed dishes to put themselves through school, over the perception that someone got a hand-up (out?) because of the color of their skin.
An award looks darn good on a resume when you are competing with equals for the same job
Jeff Cook
Well looking at the achievements of some of those winners Jeff, I think the pool at which they would compete would be pretty small. I really doubt at that level that the other candidates would have any less of a pedigree even though their skin colour might disqualify them from such an award.
At a lower level you can be fairly sure than any employers would know the award is somewhat meaningless.
I really don't think the story behind this thread is that big a deal, and it really doesn't bother me. It is the underlying attitude that drives this sort of thing that bothers me - it seems to prolong the division. The current story driving this thread may involve an award that could be considered largely irrelevant by a prospective employer, but as Jeff says above, some awards are not irrelevant - this discussion has gone well beyond the specifics of the story that started this thread.
Jeff, if I had kids, I would not wrongly identify them to be a minority to get a benefit. Perhaps I am cynical, but I do not think doing a wrong to take advantage of a wrong is the right thing to do (and I am certain you feel the same way). I have had friends suggest that I should get CDIB-certified to take advantage of benefits offered to the Cherokee tribe, but that feels wrong too, as I was not brought up in an impoverished tribal environment. I think those handouts should be given to the truly needy, equally and regardless of race. I think scholarships should be awarded to the most qualified within the organization they are awarded. I think awards should be awarded to the standouts in a color-blind way. I think financial assistance should be based upon finances ONLY. That is my only point.
I am not on an anti-black rant, and I am very sorry if it appears that way. I will rant endlessly, however, about assistance not being handed out based solely on need, and awards being handed out not based solely on merit.
Jeff Cook
BTW, Jeff, for what it's worth it is not sufficient to claim to be an Indian to take advantage of certain benefits, from what I understand (then again, I only performed cursory research at one time). Not only is there the aforementioned CDIB, but there is also a DNA test.
Jeff Cook
elder999
03-11-2007, 21:15
I am not on an anti-black rant, and I am very sorry if it appears that way.
Jeff Cook
Never thought you were for a minute, Jeff-and you're entitled to your opinions. The discussion on this thread proves some of your point, in that things like this can be divisive, but only if we let them be.
elder999
03-11-2007, 21:18
BTW, Jeff, for what it's worth it is not sufficient to claim to be an Indian to take advantage of certain benefits, from what I understand (then again, I only performed cursory research at one time). Not only is there the aforementioned CDIB, but there is also a DNA test.
Jeff Cook
Varies from tribe to tribe, really-I have a friend with Cherokee heritage whose membership card says that she's 1/125th Cherokee.....(based on genealogical records, without any DNA testing)
Thanks for the reassurance, Jeff; I greatly respect your opinion and perspective.
About your last funny story, why did the lady shriek and pass out? I'm still trying to figure out what was funny about that. ;)
I have a not-so-funny story from my contruction days. A superintendent I did not get along with was lecturing me (i.e. yelling at me) one day about how he was an honorary Cherokee chief, and that he knew guys like me very well - ignorant white rednecks who hate Indians and all things not white, how he had to struggle to achieve his "success" (mind you, he was in his fifties, could not read or write, was an alcoholic and lived in a trailer) by competing with racists like me who try to keep guys like him on the reservation, etc etc blah blah blah. He was quite insulting, and made many disparaging racial remarks to me.
Mind you, I had of course said NOTHING derogatory to this man ever - he simply did not like the fact that I did not get in line to kiss his butt, and unfortunately I was the foreman who had to clean up jobsites, do the punch-out list and fix things that he installed after he left with his crew. I had to fix a lot of his installs, which of course the owner monitored closely. The Chief felt that the only way he could deal with it was to try to fire me, which did not work, then try to intimidate me into quiting, which did not work.
Oddly, he just assumed that I had no Indian blood in me whatsoever, let alone from the same lineage he came from. He never asked, and was quite shocked when I "explained" a few things to him. It was very disconcerting to be treated with racial contempt by someone of the same bloodline. Fortunately he was forced to find employment elsewhere shortly after that incident.
As you said above, sometimes you just can't tell who has what DNA in them, making it more of an economic issue (I think?) rather than a racial issue, although they are still connected on some levels.
Jeff Cook
elder999
03-11-2007, 21:47
Thanks for the reassurance, Jeff; I greatly respect your opinion and perspective.
About your last funny story, why did the lady shriek and pass out? I'm still trying to figure out what was funny about that. ;)
Jeff Cook
Oh, she was dismayed to find that she had black ancestors.:yikes: :laugh:
Sorry if I killed the thread with my not-so-funny story - I was thinking out loud and sharing something that has bothered me for years. Perhaps it was inappropriate for this thread.
Jeff Cook
elder999
03-14-2007, 08:40
Sorry if I killed the thread with my not-so-funny story - I was thinking out loud and sharing something that has bothered me for years. Perhaps it was inappropriate for this thread.
Jeff Cook
I think it was appropriate, Jeff-it's a perfect example of how the divisiveness associated with race, and the concept of race itself are artificial constructs. In the end, "diversity"-in terms of corporate culture, and liberal PC talk, isn't really about celebrating and embracing our differences, or even about showing how we're all basically the same-it's about making us all the same.
On the other hand, there's this:
There’s something striking about the laboratory of Michael F. Summers at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. It’s not the giant nuclear magnetic resonance machine that he uses to visualize molecules; it’s the faces of the people who work there.
Fifteen of the 32 researchers in Dr. Summers’s biochemistry lab, including a postdoctoral student and 3 Ph.D. candidates, are black. In the halls of American science, such representation is rare.
Dr. Summers, 59, works on two tracks: trying to cure AIDS and trying to create more diversity at the research bench. When he is not in the lab, he takes to the road with the university president, Freeman A. Hrabowski III, pushing universities to set up programs for minority students who are inclined toward science. At U.M.B.C., the Meyerhoff Scholarship Program has provided an intense scientific education to about 800 undergraduates so far.
Q. Define the problem, please.
A. Less than 3 percent of Ph.D.’s awarded in science, mathematics and engineering go to African-Americans. In my field, chemistry, it’s around 2 percent. I think there are about a dozen blacks a year who get math Ph.D.’s. The numbers don’t have to be that low. We know from the College Board that there are large numbers of blacks who want to graduate with degrees in the sciences. Many want to become doctors. But we lose them in their freshman and sophomore years.
As seen here (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/science/13conv.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)
AllanJGAnderson
03-14-2007, 10:38
I think it was appropriate, Jeff-it's a perfect example of how the divisiveness associated with race, and the concept of race itself are artificial constructs. In the end, "diversity"-in terms of corporate culture, and liberal PC talk, isn't really about celebrating and embracing our differences, or even about showing how we're all basically the same-it's about making us all the same.
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Great post, and it brings up a good point. Race is a human invention, the only real division amongst us are humans and morons.
I think it was appropriate, Jeff-it's a perfect example of how the divisiveness associated with race, and the concept of race itself are artificial constructs. In the end, "diversity"-in terms of corporate culture, and liberal PC talk, isn't really about celebrating and embracing our differences, or even about showing how we're all basically the same-it's about making us all the same.
On the other hand, there's this:
As seen here (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/science/13conv.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)
Aaron, any rationale on why they are lost in their first two years?
elder999
03-14-2007, 17:00
Aaron, any rationale on why they are lost in their first two years?
Well, from the article:
The big thing is that the way beginning chemistry, calculus and physics are taught at most colleges is discouraging. They are taught as gateway courses, and they are structured to weed out students. The Chem 101 professor gets up at the first session and says, “Look around you; only one person here is going to end up a chemistry major.”
That’s discouraging to everyone, but for the African-Americans, it’s really negative. These are young people who — because of history — may already feel that society has low expectations of them. The crunch comes after the first exam when the black youngster might pull a C and when some of the whites and international students get A’s. When he or she goes up to the professor, he says, “Listen, you passed, what’s your complaint?” And the student thinks, “Maybe the professor is right, I don’t belong here.”
I can say that 25 years ago, there were 800 students in my freshman physics class. A typical exam consisted of 4 questions:most students single one right, but you'd get partial credit for work shown-maybe get a 40% or so, and with the grade curve that became a "B." This can be extremely discouraging for anyone, let alone someone already unsure of their belonging there.
Well, from the article:
I can say that 25 years ago, there were 800 students in my freshman physics class. A typical exam consisted of 4 questions:most students single one right, but you'd get partial credit for work shown-maybe get a 40% or so, and with the grade curve that became a "B." This can be extremely discouraging for anyone, let alone someone already unsure of their belonging there.
I think there must be a deeper reason than that for them getting discouraged. One thing about university/college..you quickly realize there are people a lot brighter than you and quite a few less brighter.
Back when I went the bell curve always ended up at a C...with a consistency that was a miracle of probability...we knew the profs were playing games, one even went so far to admit that if he sent in marks too high then the administration would be on his case.
Surely bright kids , which they must be to even get into an engineering program must realize that the first two years are the "weeding" out years and a B or a C is respectable as long as you are close to the class average.
I am certain that along with some of the international and white students there must have been some black students getting As.
Edit: Actually I think there should be some research into it...North America can use as many engineers as we can get, I believe the number enrolled has been decreasing while in places like India, Brazil , Korea etc. it has been increasing.
I hate to see potential in the physical sciences wasted.
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