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RA Miller
03-26-2007, 12:38
Well, it's official. I am now a certified instructor in the GRAPLE(r) system for LEO and Military _only_.

Cliff asked for a review when I got back, so here it is. It's 5 days, 6 and 1/2 hours on the mat a day going over 23 techniques and how to teach them and just under a thousand dollars.

I'm really, really split on it, and the split hits exactly where I thought it would, so bear that in mind- it may be my prejudice showing through.

First of all, the instructors are excellent (Rener Gracie for most of the classes) and really know their stuff. They've broken down the techniques that they feel are most valuable and are dead on with where most students have trouble, which aspects of the technique are critical and showed me a lot of new good stuff. (My sankaku in judo always sucked- it is much better now). Watching any of the family move was a pleasure, and I think I picked up almost as much watching the superb body mechanics and use of gravity as from anything said during the classes.

They had great teaching methodologies: the Fight Simulation Drills(tm) are modern grappling kata and a great way to get beginners comfortable with the ground and close contact. Their strategy, tactics and techniques are superbly in synch.

IMO, it is critical to go into this class with both an open mind and a sceptical one. The Gracies know what they do better than anyone, and basic groundfighting skills are critical to an officer, but they are woefully unaware of our environment.

I got a little tired of hearing the mount described as the "worst case scenario"... it doesn't make my top ten. Being face down with blood in your eyes being kicked by an unknown number and feeling someone fumble with your weapon is far closer. One of the students asked if they had ever tried the class with duty equipment and simguns. The answer was "no, but it wouldn't make any difference." They also expected bad guys to react the way that their opponents had acted, "If someone tries something a couple of times and it doesn't work, he'll get discouraged and give up." Not my experience with tweakers.

More good- the emphasis is on body mechanics and submissions with minimal reliance on pain compliance (because it is unreliable) and damage... the explanation for that was because damage is also unreliable (?). I asked specifically because there were several situations in which deadly force or focused blows would have been authorized on our force continuum and it would be faster or just as fast to add a strike to the reach. I kind of expected a liabilty answer, not that kicking someone in the head is unreliable. Not saying it's 100% reliable but in general most stuff works better on people who are concussed.

So a lot of good/bad, sometimes exactly the same thing. Only one of the 23 techniques absolutely didn't work against a resisting threat (Rener tried it on me and gave up and went to a strangle). Two were based on very bad tactics (the same tactic: unnecessarily closing with a threat {potential threat, actually one had no Opportunity, being still out of range, the other was just turtling} instead of going to a force option.)

I keep saying how good these guys are and words don't quite do it. At the end of class Rener rolled with all 22 of us and tapped every one, including four who outweighed him by easily 50 pounds. I've held my own grappling with judo national champions and he tapped me too... not with the technique he said he was going to use and after I got a collar choke on him he said it wasn't allowed (I feel I did okay- bragging. Sorry). But he was _good_.

There's a bad side to that, too: one of the students brought up the tactical error mentioned before and several people in class just turned on him, outraged that he would question the system in any way. Someone of that skill level (also very friendly and an excellent teacher) can quickly inspire some cult-like behavior. In this job we can't afford to let our critical thinking down for a second.

In the end, there's a lot of stuff that I'll incorporate into our agency's training, but (unless someone really, really wanted it) I won't teach the class as is.

Rory

TonyU
03-26-2007, 13:36
Thanks for the review.
It's been my experience that good and bad goes with a lot of stuff. Some programs have more good than bad, of course there is the opposite as well.
Also my experience with LEO's teaching programs they tend to be more open minded against critiques. Their philosophy usually being if you like take it, if not don't.
The attitude you came across, I've experienced with civilians teaching. They usually believe that it's the end all.

Brian R. VanCise
03-26-2007, 15:25
I have experienced these attitudes both way's civilian and non-civilian. If nothing else you did get in alot of training and hopefully learned some very important lessons. I am still amazed though that anyone would teach an LEO class with no duty rig while training. It certainly changes the whole game when you have to protect your tools and always shift away from your firearm side so that the other individual has a harder time trying to gain access. This really should be standard LEO training.

TonyU
03-26-2007, 16:03
On that note Rory, if you do put something together let me know.

Cliff Hargrave
03-26-2007, 16:08
Great review, thanks Rory.

I have never found the magic LEO course. No matter how good, there are always some things I don't like.

TonyU
03-26-2007, 16:21
Great review, thanks Rory.

I have never found the magic LEO course. No matter how good, there are always some things I don't like.
I think that would be impossible. But I think there are more choices to chose from than it was even 15 years ago. I know, I for one, didn't look at grappling in the same light as I do today. Same with knife defenses.

Jeff C.
03-27-2007, 17:10
The really good thing, Rory, is that you were a student of the course with considerable experience AND skills. You have the knowhow to take the good from it and leave the bad behind.

What concerns me is if anybody brand-new to law enforcement/corrections takes the course and doesn't have the necessary experience to run it through The Filter.

The Gracies are good enough at their craft to make instant tactical adjustments if/when they encounter something that deviates from their presupposed plan. That doesn't do the Average Joe any good, however.

Jeff Cook

Erik
03-27-2007, 17:21
You make me want to join Portland PD.

rgoad
03-27-2007, 18:21
Jeff has a really good point. A friend of mine, a cop, was in a DT class taught by a SWAT guy. They were being shown the Ude-hishighi-waki-gatame (http://web1.vattnet.com/judo/katamewaza/wakigatame.html) and told that this was unbeatable, there was no way out. My friend said "yes there was" so the instructor put him in the lock. My friend got the guy's back and Triangle choked him upside down from the rear. I guess the "unbreakable" part had been repeated several generations of DT instructors and no one had either figured it out or checked to see if it's true. It makes me wonder what else people assume to be true.

Cliff Hargrave
03-27-2007, 19:53
That's just about applicable to any DT course. You have some guys that train, take it seriously, and continue to improve, and some just want the hours on their resume.

My biggest problem with the course, and I haven't even taken it, is that no matter how good Rorion, Renner, and Ryron are - they are not cops. They can't grasp what we do. They can only assume based on what they have been told. That doesn't mean they don't have some great stuff to offer. I think courses like this need to be constantly examined and updated by folks that are actually doing the work. I believe this course was developed by Helio and Mansur (9th degree under Helio) way back in the 1950s. Mansur was a high ranking police official in Rio and they developed the course to teach the officers.

I will be the first to say that most police DT has little to no ground work and needs it badly. But it's only one part of the overall picture.

doubleouch
03-27-2007, 22:38
Rory, I just noticed you are in Portland too. Our saturday noon class is run by a portland police officer. You are welcome to come by and train sometime. There are usually a few very good guys in the room and no macho attitudes. Our Beaverton Straightblast gym does a really good law enforcement program developed by some of our guys down in Florida. It's called ISR Maitrix. Developed with police officers instead of for police officers. I hear good things about it.

Webmaster
03-28-2007, 06:14
Rory, I just noticed you are in Portland too. Our saturday noon class is run by a portland police officer.
FYI, Rory is a corrections officer for your county and also serves as a training officer. It's a good bet that he already knows the officer you reference in your post. As a courtesy, why don't you shoot him a PM and see if that is the case? If they do know each other, they might be able to talk at their own time and compare notes.

shinbushi
03-28-2007, 19:46
I am wondering if anyone has tried the ISR Matrix from One Dragon (SBG affiliate)?
video link (http://www.onedragon.com/videos/isrle25mb.wmv)
and an older one (http://www.isrmatrix.org/videos/ISRPM_clipDSL.wmv)

Brian R. VanCise
03-29-2007, 08:21
No David but based on the short clip I would be interested in seeing more of what they do.

katana73
03-29-2007, 15:09
I myself am one of the DT instructors for our agency here in central Florida. Alot of the problem when it comes to redesigning a new DT curricullum is that most of the techniques have to been "legally" approved and place in the proper order of use depending on the Use of Force Matrix that the state requires. Alot of our current techniques are mostly derived from Aikido but are taught to be executed in a hard style fashion. And unfortunately alot of the officers don't really like DT refreshers on our yearly requalification. So alot of times we get officers that just go through the motions.

Jeff C.
03-29-2007, 16:13
Pablo, that is a reflection on the officer's leadership above them. Obviously their chain of command places little to no emphasis on DT proficiency. Until that improves, the attitude towards the training will not improve.

Jeff Cook

Cliff Hargrave
03-29-2007, 16:24
Pablo, that is a reflection on the officer's leadership above them. Obviously their chain of command places little to no emphasis on DT proficiency. Until that improves, the attitude towards the training will not improve.

Jeff Cook

LEO leadership consists of 1) don't make waves, 2) don't get us sued, 3) don't get complained on, and 4) don't cause bad press. They will not spend money on anything related to DT, firearms, SWAT, or anything remotely tactical until their backs are against the wall and they have no choice. Even then it's done grudgingly. The tactical officers are always the step-children.

Now if it has to do with computers, "community" policing fell good programs, or anything that will get their pictures in the paper then the funds and time are endless.

Jeff C.
03-29-2007, 18:28
Wow Cliff, those four priorities are shared by some military organizations. Why does that not surprise me?

Jeff Cook

Dennis Monk
03-29-2007, 18:42
Cliff is right, dead on.
A certain agency that I know of (not naming names) asked a certain supervisor (whom is really close to me) to put together and train a CERT Team (Corrections Emergency Response Team)
A lofty list of items were approved for order, most of which ended up not being what was recommended and the initial officers were hand picked.
After all of the initial training and and half written policies were put in place, everything was thought to be just fine; right up until this certain supervisor utilized the CERT Team that he handpicked and went to training with.
After the incident (which involved a phychotic inmate with an edged weapon) this certain supervisor was told in no uncertain terms that that situation at hand did not justify the response. The supervisor was raked over the coals in front of inmates and subordinate officers.
He quit the CERT Team five minutes later.
Over 2 years have gone by and the CERT Team still has not had one day of training since.
Some law enforcement agencies are really big on being able to say, "See what we have, if we ever need it.", but never want it put to use.

KIT
03-31-2007, 16:42
Great review! And now you only have to spend thousands of $$ to go down there every year to re-certify!

The comments and concerns are great as well. They don't train with duty gear on? :(

I remain very leery of non-officers creating and/or teaching DT, regardless of their martial arts achievements. Indeed, I think an argument could be made that the overall poor state of LE DT is based not only on the administrative/liability issues we've discussed here, but the fact that LE tends to farm out their DT instruction to non-police martial artists who "think they know better."

There is some really, really questionable stuff out there gaining traction that is in my view dangerous to officers.

I prefer instructors who understand that their real skill is in the things like body mechanics and teaching methodologies, but that their role should be to step back, listen to what the officers need, and figure out how to teach them to do it better, versus deciding what the officers need without the proper frame of reference.

Haven't had the chance to train ISR matrix but it looks great. For you Pac NW-erner officers interested, there is also the Arrestling program, which has been incorporating grappling with duty gear, sim guns, FoF firearms etc. for years. Both are informed by BJJ but are not BJJ-centric.

The National Tactical Officer's DT program has some serious promise as well, if their first level course was any indicator.

I have also mentioned ECQC from Shivworks several times on Budoseek as well - it is a weapons based, worst case scenario close quarters method that will have you rolling full out while shooting Sim guns.

These programs do what it is LE has needed for a long time - they offer realistic training methods developed by officers who are also highly experienced martial artists and effective teachers. There simply is no comparison with people outside LE, or inside LE who do not have the martial background. If you are a serving officer I highly recommend getting to one of these classes.

ECQC (Shivworks) is based down South along with ISR matrix, so some of you guys have no excuse!!!!


Rory - ECQC is coming back to Portland in May for its third iteration, you should join us this time. I'd love to hear your comparisons of the two courses.