competition

[Victor]

I believe that competition is a good in one way, like to show form in kata competition, or your fighting skills in sprarring. To me though, it really does'nt prove much. They may also have breaking competitions, to quote Bruce Lee " Boards don't hit back".

[fightgrrl]

I believe the biggest thing we can gain from competition is the knowledge of how we respond to the pressure.
Get used to being stressed/wound up in controlled situations and you will better be able to handle the real life stress better.

We really see how this works with kids and the confidence they gain, not from winning, but just from going up and trying....can you do your best when you are tense? Competition is a good way to find out.
I have seen so many students who excel in the classroom freeze up at tournaments... I myself have never quite pulled off the form I practice...I always end up with a variation, when i get going I always end up zooming past some move or the other in bo form...luckily its still a winner:D


sioux

[Bad Karma]

One word; three times:

Conditioning, Conditioning, Conditioning!

Peace

[Jeff Burger]

I dont think competition helps conditioning directly....i mean how long are you out there competing.
For me it helps indirectly cause i have purpose in my training.
Self defense is not a big motivator for me any more. Could i get into a street fight...sure...can I whoop everybody...nope. But I feel confident I can most likely avoid a situations and have alot less fear involved if one does happen.

Ill workout Ill try to keep fit but i jsut dont push it unless I have that competition in sight.

Also Fightgrrl's comment. Thats one of the biggest reasons I want my students to compete. REAL CONFIDENCE...you build confidence like you build strength...you work it and when you want more you increase the resisitance. I have seen GIANT changes in people. And thats even just from forms, weapons forms and point fighting. Sure those things have little chance of injury but when most people compete they are nervous especially in the beginning.

Courage is not the absence of fear.


Jeff

[SCKumite]

Hey Guys,

I to agree with fightgrrl. Competition is a way to learn about responding to different levels of Mental pressure. The more advanced the competition the more level of pressure. The better your opponent the better you try to be. Competition is also a way of training for some.
Such as real life. Applying for jobs in real life, when you have others trying for the same position. You try harder. Competition is everywhere. Learning to better yourself on a mat is also a way of learning to better youself in the real world. It is a challenge for some but a learning experience for everyone. Learning to cope with pressure and learning to improve what you do. There is competition on many levels of life. I'm learning that as my level of education goes so does my level of competition in life. We compete in something nearly everyday of our lives.
Competition in the ring(on the mat) is a good way of learning to deal with levels of pressure that will help us as we live outside of the Martial Arts world where true competition is really rough.

But competition in the rings is also a way of showing others what you are and have been learning in your training. A way of seeing how others progress as well. How well you react to another opponents attack when sparring. You can learn about your reactions, timing and instincts that you have aquired while training. Martial Arts competition is a good way of learning what you can do outside your training school and with total strangers. Of course you don't show people in competition that you can break their neck or another part of the body. Why would you want to do that anyway?
Competition to me is an aide of training like learning the mental aspects of an advanced Kata or how to do an inside block. It's part of training for some and a life for others like Tiger Woods, Michelle Kwan, Jeff Gordon, the great Ali. They are all competitors just in a different field.
Train to compete, compete to train.

I love competition. Always have and probably always will.

Just my thoughts. :)

[Bear]

Umm... I guess I'm the oddball. I don't compete for confidence, for conditioning (although that's been a nice side effect), or to see how well my art would measure up on the street.
I compete because I'm just a competitive person, and because I love the adrenalin of it all. This has probably come about because I'm a judoka. The rules of competition are extremely different from the "rules of engagement" on the street. I spar because I like to see what I can do against other judoka. No other reason.
I don't learn anything in competition beyond what does and doesn't work on the mat. It's just fun and I'll keep doing it until they nail down my coffin :)

[SCKumite]

Hey Joseph ,

Far from being an oddball . :)
There is not a thing wrong in that if that is the way you enjoy doing Competition. There are many reasons to compete and you told us of another. I respect that. As long as a person doesn't compete just to hurt someone else, we all have a reason.

I say for the ones that want to hurt something................"Go beat up a board or a bunch of bricks."


So.............. Enjoy and becareful. :)

[fightgrrl]

now I am getting to the Bear/SCKumite level.....

that nagging "am I actually GOOD at this?" question is leading up to full contact...Muay Thai/San Shou/kickboxing/whatever...
I am good at swinging a stick around,
not very good at swinging hands and feet in the air with no one there,
but I have been putting time and practice into fighting(more than kata)so its getting time to test it before I am too old.
Its definitely the personal/spiritual side of the coin, (no neck breaking...)

[Bear]

In my own opinion (and I would love to find someone who can intelligently disagree with me on this point), full-contact has no purpose in any competition. It takes more control to pull your strikes and play tag than it does to go full-contact.
My main reason against full-contact is the lack of logic in it. Competitions are, by nature, things of rules. You can only move in a specified area, there is a time limit, certain strikes or techniques (joint-locks, chokes, etc...) are illegal (based on the art, age, and rank, and usually because of the danger in said techniques), there are points, and there are penalties for violating said rules. Most of these rules are designed to protect the competitors from getting seriously injured (bruises can be expected).
Full-contact with rules is a paradox. It have no place in a competition. Those who want to do full contact belong with the UFC or other NHB scene. And then, I don't consider it a competition. It's called a brawl. That's just my two cents on full-contact. Anyone is free to tell me I'm full of it, but I hope they have some supporting evidence. I love a good debate...:D

[Jen]

I have to say that for me, going to tournaments does help me perform better in front of people. The reason I don't go very often, other then that they always seem to happen when I have no money, is that I get incredibly nervous in front of people. Last time I went to one, I lost in power breaking to a girl that is no way stronger then me. I lost because I got nervous. I missed a back kick, because I freaked out. My goal for next time this tournament comes up , if power breaking is in it this year, is a 3 board back kick. Last year I was supposed to do 2.
I think it does take more control to pull your strikes. Especially if you are trying to go full speed and just lightly tap someone, or come as close as you can without hitting a person. Honestly, when I spar someone who doesn't have good control, i've started now to make a dodging game out of it. I let the attack come as close to me as I can, and then I scoot to the side. I'm also going to work on scooting to make them be positioned for a counter attack and then making quick attacks. So, at least them having no control (when it is supposed to be no contact in class, some people do heavy contact), I get to work on my evasive skills.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Bear
In my own opinion (and I would love to find someone who can intelligently disagree with me on this point), full-contact has no purpose in any competition. It takes more control to pull your strikes and play tag than it does to go full-contact.
My main reason against full-contact is the lack of logic in it. Competitions are, by nature, things of rules. You can only move in a specified area, there is a time limit, certain strikes or techniques (joint-locks, chokes, etc...) are illegal (based on the art, age, and rank, and usually because of the danger in said techniques), there are points, and there are penalties for violating said rules. Most of these rules are designed to protect the competitors from getting seriously injured (bruises can be expected).
Full-contact with rules is a paradox. It have no place in a competition. Those who want to do full contact belong with the UFC or other NHB scene. And then, I don't consider it a competition. It's called a brawl. That's just my two cents on full-contact. Anyone is free to tell me I'm full of it, but I hope they have some supporting evidence. I love a good debate...:D

1. you fight how yohu train. I've seen far too many people who only point spar get mauled in the street because they pulled punches. IMO, full contact is something that's necessary at some point in a martial artist's journey.

2. point fighting is more of a paradox than full contact. fighting with rules AND fighting without contact?

3. There are very valuable lessons learned from full contact, like how to take a hit. When you are in a fight, you already have the rush of adrenaline clouding your head. taking a shot clouds it further and tends to make people forget their training. people need to know how to deal with that.

4. full contact provides a venue to test yourself fairly adequately. Point fighting does not.

5. The very nature of point fighting may develop bad habits. if a technique LOOKS like it scored, you may be awarded a point. if you score with a technique that would be ineffective on the street (e.g. jumping in the air and slapping your opponent on the head) you will be awarded a point. You get penalized for hard contact. That can get you in the habit of pulling punches. That will get you killed in the street.

6. full contact fighting promotes good training and conditioning. If you are out of shape, you CAN'T effectively fight in a full contact match. you will gas before it is over.

7. you pointed out that chokes and joint locks are illegal - in MMA they are not illegal, not fully anyway. However, don't you practice knees and eye gouges in your style? aren't they illegal in point fights? so is point sparring silly because of the lack of logic?

Debate on! :)

[Bad Karma]

I agree with SevenStar simply because full contact answers the better question of how much can I take? In answering this question, you'll get to know the "real" you. Many are willing and able to dish it out but few can handle the reversal.

Peace

[SCKumite]

Hey Guys,


I have fought in "SEMI CONTACT KUMITE" matches for about four years. I think the only difference between that and "FULL CONTACT" is that we wear a special type of head gear to keep injury to the face from happening. No other padding of any kind, no hand, feet, rib gear, nothing else. The kicking, punching, throwing down, and contact in general is as real as it can get. It hurts and sometimes it takes weeks to recover from a match.

I have been doing traditional Karate-do Tournaments for over eight years. I have never hurt anyone intentionally in a match but I have been penalized for excessive contact. I adjust and continue.

I have had one serious altercation on the street and one in my high school over the years. I did not pull any punches, nor did I break anyones bones. The locks that I have used would have and could have broken some arms easily. But I didn't need to go that far.

As to get to my point.
I feel my competing in point tournaments had no bearing on what I used in the real situations. Like some of you said, it falls on your training.
"BUT!" I also have been training for the past nine years in locks and holds but we never broken anyones arm or leg while we was learning how to apply the technique. So..............If we stop and not hurt our fellow student while we are training how to snap some mugger's arm out of joint. Would we not stop and not hurt the mugger also??????????????????? "IS that the reason I did not break my assaulants arms in the real street attack?? No, I stopped because I wanted to stop and that was all I needed to use to controll the situation."

If we really fight like we train, we would not have any fellow training partners because if we trained in full self defense there would be "Blind people from the gouging," broken bones and dead bodies laying all over the dojos.
Point...We train to fight in the dojo and we do not hurt anyone, so what is the difference in point competiton. You pull your punch or kick to keep from hurting a fellow opponent. What would be the purpose of point fighting if you did it to kill someone?
Police officers are trained to shoot at paper, so are soldiers.

IMHO...I do not believe in the "You fight how you train" syndrome.
So if you like point fighting....good for you.
If you like full contact......good for you
If you don't like either or both........good for you too.

and..............Some good hard contact sparring is definitely a reality check just to remind you what a serious punch feels like. :)

[Jen]

I've done full contact, light contact, and no contact sparring. I kinda liked full contact the best because it trained my body to ignore pain for a while and made me better able to focus on the more important things. This of course is a bad thing when you;re at the doctor trying to find out what's wrong and none of the "does this hurt" tests are conclusive because you've dulled your senses somehow.
However, I can do any type. The only time I don't like it is when it is supposed to be no contact and I get a complainer. Some people like to shout no contact at you even when you haven't touched them, and then they pound the hell out of you. Those are the ones I am making a dodging game out of.
What I don't like about some competition sparring is the set up of the judges. If it is 4 corners and one center, and 3 must see it to count for a point. When I did this type of sparring, I always tried to keep my body turned so that only 2 judges could see me. Since most people were uncomfortable fighting in mirror stance, it would leave their body so that the other 3 judges would see them. I hate to say this, but for those of you that do this kind of sparring, this is an excellent way to cheat your partner out of some very clean points. It also tends to get the other person frustrated, because you both know that it was a good hit. It stops working when they adjust and fight you mirror stance though.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SCKumite



As to get to my point.
I feel my competing in point tournaments had no bearing on what I used in the real situations. Like some of you said, it falls on your training.

I was the one who said that, however, I see it all the time, even now. Now it's not in streetfights, but in grappling. in both judo and bjj, when my classmates compete, what do they end up using? Everything they use in practice. They make the same mistakes they make in practice also. Even if they say "I want to use X technique" when it comes down to it, they can't, simply because they never train it - it's not in their muscle memory. Same goes for me and for pretty much everyone - you use what you are comfortable with.

"BUT!" I also have been training for the past nine years in locks and holds but we never broken anyones arm or leg while we was learning how to apply the technique. So..............If we stop and not hurt our fellow student while we are training how to snap some mugger's arm out of joint. Would we not stop and not hurt the mugger also??????????????????? "IS that the reason I did not break my assaulants arms in the real street attack?? No, I stopped because I wanted to stop and that was all I needed to use to controll the situation."

When it somes to locks, people are conditioned to a response - usually when you feel him tap. I've seen people's arms get hirt pretty bad in training because they did not tap. people either keep going, or they will think that they have the technique and just let it go, as you did.

If we really fight like we train, we would not have any fellow training partners because if we trained in full self defense there would be "Blind people from the gouging," broken bones and dead bodies laying all over the dojos.

nah, that's where common sense training comes in. You don't go full contact all the time - once or twice a month will suffice, unless you grapple. grappling is a fomr of full contact that can be done all the time. I'm glad you did bring up eye gouges though - ever notice that it's rare to see them used in fights, even if you are trained? (at least from the ones I've seen) why? because

1. they don't practice them enough
2. they practice them against unresisting opponents who let them do the technique slowly.

Remember the first UFCs? (actually, you could eye gouge in those) How many times did you see the karate and kung fu stylists use any super lock or even eye gouge? how many of them did you see use even knees and elbows? not many. Was it because they chose not to and instead chose to get knocked out?

I will say the same of pressure point attacks - people always talk about the single touch knock outs, and when you see them perform them, they do so on an unresisting opponent. such presice targets are hard enough to hit on an unresisting opponent...when you are trying it in an adrenaline rush situation with a resisting opponent, you can multiply that threefold.


Point...We train to fight in the dojo and we do not hurt anyone, so what is the difference in point competiton. You pull your punch or kick to keep from hurting a fellow opponent. What would be the purpose of point fighting if you did it to kill someone?
Police officers are trained to shoot at paper, so are soldiers.

And as I've said, alot of the people who train to fight in the dojo but do not do it realistically can get themselves hurt. Full contact is part of that realistic training. once again referring to MMA, look at the wake up call that was delivered. for years, people said "when people try to take me down, I would just do *insert technique here*" And look what happened - when it came time to do it, they couldn't. As for officers and soldiers, they do more than that. they also have simulated activities, training courses, etc. for them it's a little different, as shooting is more a thing of reflex and precision. you're not fighitng someone resisting against you, as they can't resist the bullet.


IMHO...I do not believe in the "You fight how you train" syndrome.
So if you like point fighting....good for you.
If you like full contact......good for you
If you don't like either or both........good for you too.

and..............Some good hard contact sparring is definitely a reality check just to remind you what a serious punch feels like. :)

I very much believe in that syndrome. Agreed though, if you like both, good for you. However, if you don't do the full contact, you may be fooling yourself, for one of the very reasons you mentioned - it's a reality check.

[Bad Karma]

I think I'll just let you carry my portion of the conversation, Tremaine, since you have the gift of gab. ;) Still in agreement.

Peace

[SevenStar]

lol, when I was born, my parents would say " We can't wait for you to walk and talk!" as I got older, they couldn't wait for me to sit down and shut up! :D

[SCKumite]

:laugh::laugh:
That was really great Tremaine. I liked that.


Take Care.:)

[fightgrrl]

Christina, I am also in the excessive contact club.
Jeff says the only double disqualification he has EVER seen came in one of my (point) fights.

I like to compare to boxing when it comes to the full contact issue.
There is no light contact boxing as a BIG TIME sport. Also, not all boxing matches are "brawls". Boxing was traditionally a gentelmanly challenge of skill, where opponents tested themselves. 60 minutes did a profile on a local boxer a few years back because he is a brain surgeon.

I have been unable to get any full contact fights in Mass. (illegal once you add kicks) and have been DQ'd point fighting, which I hate anyway....(maybe because I am on the slow and hard hitting side). I have gotten SMOKED in a point match with a woman I could BREAK in real life. Eventually you have to see that playing Tag is not really fighting. If I needed self-defense in real life it wouldn't be anything like point fighting. So, in reality Full contact is the goal.
People are always asking me if I get into fights or how many people I have beaten up and happily I don't and haven't ...BUT..I still would like to face someone who is willing to take the same challenge just to see if my kickboxing is actually good.

With jujitsu it's different. You can't ever REALLY do full contact competition because joint breaks are definitely the goal.
I don't know what would happen in a real life situation, I hope that I would end up in control over the situation rather than seriously damaging someone, but once you step outside the law as an outlaw, I believe a person is OUTSIDE of the law and I would use any means necessary to protect myself. Not that the LEGAL system necessarily agrees.

Fighting in real life is NOT my goal. But it's a lot easier to walk away KNOWING that you could have WASTED the other person.

[Jeff Burger]

Point fighting = pointLESS fighting
Sorry I hate it, I think its one of the worst things that ever happend to martial arts.
That leg hopping pump kick and flying mutliple backfist is just an embarassment to martial arts.


Kickboxing was illgeal in Mass for awhile but they have brought it back.
Often though the fights get cancelled (insurance) or Thai fights turn into international rules (leg kicks but no knees or elbows).

UFC and other mixed martial arts contest are not brawls.
There are no unskilled competitors.

Dont worry Sioux...we cwill get you a fight...they cant run forever.

BTW...that double diqualification was the greatest.

This girl got ticked cause she thouight Fightgrrl was going too hard .
So she decided she was going to kick Fightgrrl in the shin and hit hard after the call to stop.
Her blatant intentional "hard" contact wasnt a scratch compared to hard we hit Fightgrrl in class.
Fightgrrl had to think about it to realize...hey she is trying to hurt me.
She runs in again and Fightgrrl sends her sailing back horizintal all the way out of the ring.

I dont like bad sportsmanship....especially from my own students.
But I dont like to see my people on the recieving end of bad sportsmanship either.
I cant say Im happy about the way it ended.
But Im glad you didnt inititiate bad sportsmanship...and glad you could more than hold your own when the issue was pressed.


Walking away....
it sounds easy but there can alot going on inside...I think it deserves a seperate post...Ill put it in General Martial Arts....

Jeff

[David21]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bear
[B]In my own opinion (and I would love to find someone who can intelligently disagree with me on this point), full-contact has no purpose in any competition. QUOTE]

I've spent a little time boxing before studying jujitsu, and I must say I think there are many benefits of full contact. I think the main reason most martial arts kumite events are not full contact has to do with insurance and lack of adequate protective equipment rather than enhancing control.

The first benefit of full contact is heart. In boxing, when punches land, they hurt. Alot. It takes a lot of mental endurance to fight with an opponent for 9 or even 2 minutes when he's absolutely punishing you with his punches. This type of mental strength will help you in many endeavors in life.

Secondly, you can see how your techniques affect various opponents. Some people don't care if they get hit, they will just walk through a tirade of punches to get to you. Others will shy away from any punch. It's good to know that when you through a given technique, it's really going to hurt your opponent.

Thirdly, as opposed to most point kumite matches I've seen, the action in full contact bouts is continuous. That means if you close on someone and things don't go your way, you learn how to get out of range and regroup. That's a tremendous skill, because many times in this world things don't go according to plan.

Let me know your thoughts.

David H

[Skye]

Simple (might not be intelligent) argument for full contact: put a full contact fighter against a points fighter.

[Musubi Dojo]

Hello All;

I think the best reason to try full contact is that you you just don't know how you will react to a hard shot to the head(Or the solar pleus, or the lateral femoral...) until you get hit with one.

I've seen a big strong guy dropped by by a roundhouse kick to to the inner thigh. His leg went into spasm and he hit the ground twitching. I've also seen guys who thought they we really tough just stand there looking surprised after taking a hook punch to the side of the head. If they were in a serious altercation, they would have been in real trouble.

The only way that I know of to work through a reaction like this is to face it over and over again.

I'm not suggesting that you should hit someone in the head until it doesn't bother them anymore, but I think some full contact training is necessary to have any real skill at fighting.

My honest opinion is that many martial artists aren't willing to do the work or face shattered concepts of themselves or their abilities. It can be really painful to the ego as well as the body to learn exactly what you're capable of.
That's my 2 cents for what it's worth.
Cheers
Chris Luttrell

[johenora]

Competition is good.
But for longevity we need:
1.Flexibility---all-around,
2.Weights---power and strenght,
3.Special Diet--food,water,air and sun.
4. Sufficient rest and sleep,
5.Skill training,and
6.Joggin,Joggin,joggin on proper surfaces.
The most important is Joggin because if we do not jog we will age in dog years.

[blck_soft_hit_hard]

For me, tournaments are a way for me to be exposed to different styles of fighting and people. I always leave a tournament with some new associates or friends. Plus the fact that I just love to compete are the main reasons I go to tournaments. And a lot of people are trashing point sparring, I don't see anything wrong with point sparring as long as you are aware that it really isn't practical. If youre taking it for what it is, a sport, then it is all in fun. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

mike dameron