View Full Version : Advice?
I have been studying Taekwondo for 2 years at the same do jang, and generally it has been a very good community to be in. However, in the last six months, two of my favorite instructors (both middle-aged men) have come on to me in various ways.
I don't think I've been encouraging such advances; I'm there to train, not flirt. Taekwondo makes me happy, and that means I smile a lot--or so I've been told--but I think that's just me generally beaming, not smiling invitingly at these men.
I'm starting to get discouraged, because when I'm in class, I want to concentrate on my training. Now whenever one of them is there, I have to use some of my focus to avoid doing anything that they would take as encouragement. I've tried talking to one of them, and he's stopped coming on so strong, but he won't just let it drop. And the other one always puts it in such a joking context that I don't know how to have a serious conversation about it with him.
As a woman in the martial arts, do I just have to accept that this is going to happen occasionally? Or should I start looking for another do jang?
Jay Bell
04-01-2007, 22:15
Leave and find somewhere that doesn't tread martial arts training as a meat locker. Absolutely inappropriate.
Patrick Parker
04-01-2007, 22:18
Vote with your feet. There is no reason for you to put up with that.
However, in the last six months, two of my favorite instructors (both middle-aged men) have come on to me in various ways.
Oh wow, that's awkward... Especially because they were two of your favourite instructors. There's a relationship of trust there, which is just all weird now.
As a woman in the martial arts, do I just have to accept that this is going to happen occasionally?
Absolutely not. I mean, there's always going to be a possibility of physical attraction within the dojang, but when it's clear that you're not interested and they don't respect that, that's just wrong, in any environment. It's interfering with your enjoyment of TKD and just creating an awkward atmosphere in the dojang.
Or should I start looking for another do jang?
You can definitely do that!
Just wondering, have you talked to the head instructor about this? Or would that just be too awkward? I'm just thinking he or she might be able to do something about it and you won't have to switch dojangs... (It's just that you said you liked the community in general, and it's just these two guys who are ruining it.) Might be worth a shot.
But definitely, if it just feels too awkward to continue training there, find a new place. Good luck! :)
Thanks for all of your thoughts. I was beginning to think that I was over-reacting, because no one around me has ever commented on it.
Jaclyn, I've thought about talking to the head instructor, who I have a lot of respect for. But the problem is, most of what has been bothering me is (relatively) subtle. Niether of these men have said anything obscene to me or anything. It's just things like constantly joking about how one day I could maybe be their girlfriend, or asking me overly personal questions about my previous boyfriends right before trying to get me to "hang out" sometime. I'm afraid that it would sound like nothing if I had to spell it out, because it wouldn't be that bad if it had only happened once or twice, but it's been going on for way too long now. It doesn't help anything that one of these guys is one of the Senior Instructors at the school.
Although it would be difficult if you decide to leave you should tell the head instructor why. That way if this behavor continues with another woman then he may be able to stop it before it goes far enough for someone leave over.
Thanks, dao. I think I'll try to talk to these guys again. But if they don't stop and I decide to leave, I'll talk to the head instructor before I do and explain why I'm leaving. As I mentioned earlier, I have a lot of respect for him, so it only seems fair to not just blow him off even if his instructors are acting in a less-than-ideal fashion.
Mandeigh Wells
04-02-2007, 04:09
Is this all happeneing during class time?
I'm going to play devils advocate here and ask if its banter that has gone a bit far? The reason I say this is that I train with a group of guys (its not an open class at the mo) and we are always making comments, sometimes a bit rude. Most of them are married, but for us its not serious, its just banter.
Unwanted advances creates an uncomfortable environment. Unwanted advances in the workplace could be considered sexual harrassment under the right conditions. One of those conditions is if they continue to proposition you and/or joke with you in a sexual way after you have made it very clear to them that you want them to stop.
Good luck with your situation.
Jeff Cook
.... Niether of these men have said anything obscene to me or anything. It's just things like constantly joking about how one day I could maybe be their girlfriend, or asking me overly personal questions about my previous boyfriends right before trying to get me to "hang out" sometime. I'm afraid that it would sound like nothing if I had to spell it out, because it wouldn't be that bad if it had only happened once or twice, but it's been going on for way too long now. It doesn't help anything that one of these guys is one of the Senior Instructors at the school.
As Mandeigh said, a lot of this starts as playful banter and that is all well and good until someone crosses the line. The line has definitely been crossed and much of this should have been stopped immediately. See what you can do about putting things back on a more professional level. If they won't respect that, than it is definitely time to have a talk with them.
If they won't respect that, than it is definitely time to have a talk with them.
This is pretty much what it all boils down to, respect.
A man MUST respect the woman's right to say no.
Even if there was previous actions to the contrary.:nono:
In your case there were none. When you say no, anything said after
that is harrassment. If these two forty year old teenagers haven't
learned this yet, then maybe it is time they did. Unwelcomed comments
regarding your personal life, no matter how subtle, are harrassment.
:cutup:
It is the duty of the school's owner to make sure there is an
environment free of this stuff. You are there to train. It's not a
singles bar. If the Head Instructor does nothing to remedy and
monitor this, then he is not worth your respect either.:shoot:
It is your life, your training session and your self-respect.
In this case, it is all about you.
:yourock:
Stay strong.
Peace.
Musubi Dojo
04-02-2007, 10:43
But the problem is, most of what has been bothering me is (relatively) subtle. Niether of these men have said anything obscene to me or anything. It's just things like constantly joking about how one day I could maybe be their girlfriend, or asking me overly personal questions about my previous boyfriends right before trying to get me to "hang out" sometime.
It doesn't sound all that subtle to me.
If you've made the situation very clear to them then I'd talk to the head instructor or train elsewhere.
Best of luck no matter what you do.
c
Eye4NEye
04-02-2007, 10:54
Everyone has already given great advice. I would just add that even if they do refrain from making comments, the atmosphere might still be too distracting for you to stay. Being in an environment of "contact", you might always be wondering if they are correcting your stance or copping a feel. Even if the intentions are good, I know that would forever be in the back of my mind.
I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this (since they seem to be senior instructors and are probably at every class) but is there a way to schedule around them being in class?
Hi everyone. Thanks for all of your thoughts.
Mandeigh, I appreciate your considering the other side. However, all of this goes on before and after class, and it feels qualitatively different than the guy-banter that I've been a part of in other places. I think part of the problem is that they are both so much older than me that it didn't even really occur to me where it was all going until one of them called me up. I'd foolishly given him my phone number when I was looking for a job, because he'd said he had some contacts who might be helpful, and I thought he was going to call me about that. Instead, he called me up and harped on how sexy I was for 20 minutes (which, incidentally, totally befuddles me, because I consider myself to be many things, but "sexy" is not one of them).
Jeff, it is helpful to hear it laid out like that in such blunt terms.
Eliz, I've basically stopped talking to the guy who has been bothering me the longest. Nothing else has worked, and I'm not even sure how well this recent strategy is working. I will answer him if he speaks to me first, but I don't initiate contact, and I don't stay in the conversation very long. So now he spends half of whatever class we're in together trying to catch my eye. I stare at the floor a lot.
The other guy has not been bothering me as long. I didn't even realize that all of his joking was actually kind of serious until last week, because he's more than twice my age and my brain just doesn't go there. I will try to take your suggestion and bring it back to a more professional level, and see if that makes him stop.
Nyuck3x, thanks for the moral support.
Thanks for all of your thoughts. I was beginning to think that I was over-reacting, because no one around me has ever commented on it.
I think you gotta trust your gut. In matters like this your gut is probably telling the truth.
...And, I would like to reiterate what Dao said. If you leave you have to tell the head instructor why. You owe it to those that come after you.
...just my two cents...
Im sorry you are experiencing this....
Musubi Dojo, the more I think about it, the less subtle it seems. I think I've just been trying to convince myself that it's not a big deal, despite what my gut's been telling me, because I do really like the school for other reasons.
Being in an environment of "contact", you might always be wondering if they are correcting your stance or copping a feel. Even if the intentions are good, I know that would forever be in the back of my mind.
Eye4NEye, this is part of what is really bothering me. Both of these men have really helped me with stretching, stances, etc, and when I have had a lot of questions about a new form, both of them have helped me with it after class. Looking back on all of that makes me wonder if they really were just being helpful, or if they had sketchier intentions.
And although both of them are not in every class, because they are senior instructors, at least one of them is in every class that my schedule allows for.
Thanks, Taorio. If I do leave, I will talk to the head instructor first.
Mandeigh Wells
04-02-2007, 13:05
Instead, he called me up and harped on how sexy I was for 20 minutes ughhh that's totally creepy! and positively predatory....not subtle at all. Definately time to take it higher I think!
Abby,
If I found out any one of my students were making any
unwanted advances towards another, they would have one
chance to prove themselves. I do not want my dojo to be
known as an unfriendly environment. Who knows, maybe
there are already compliants against these guys.
You have the power to make a difference.
Peace.
P.S. I love your sig.
Mandeigh and Nyuck3x, thank you for your thoughts. I haven't tried talking to my head instructor about this, because I was worried he would think I was blowing it all out of proportion. It is reassuring to know that so many people here think that I'm not being unreasonable. It will make it easier for me to talk to the head instructor if/when I have to.
AikidoLady2005
04-02-2007, 19:55
Isn't the first rule of self-defense is to trust your instincts? This is the time to trust them. If your instincts say what these two guys are doing is wrong, then its wrong. Period. You don't like it so you have every right to tell them to quit. Just because they are instructors gives them no right to do this to you and get away with it. It is completely not acceptable to be treated like a piece of meat in a dojo.
How you decide to handle this is up to you. But please say something. I've been treated inappropriately in my dojo, too. (He groped and squeezed my breasts.) I told my instructor and the offender was kicked out of the dojo.
In my opinion, how your instructor responds will tell you if you should stay or go. If he promises to do something and nothing happends you can walk. But the instructor needs to know what is going on in his school. If he is permitting this behavior himself. You need to leave. If you have to leave you will at least have the satisfaction of standing up for yourself.
Abby, I think this is a legitimate question: why did you stay on the phone with one of them for 20 minutes of flirting? Why did you not abort the call immediately?
(Yes, I know - I am being blunt again. ;) )
Jeff Cook
I don't like being negative, honestly. And I don't want to make this sound like you should defintely leave.
Okay - Not that I'm trying to jinx you but, if you do talk to the head instructor be prepared for it to go badly and try not take it personally. I saying this with the greatest respect to everyone here :), but men can be such knuckleheads. I assume that he likes the instructors and he may become defensive about them. The old " I know *name* and he'd never do anything like that" routine. Also if/when you tell him you are leaving he may dismiss everything you have to say afterward.
Be as specific as you can about what was said/done and how it made you feel.
Hey Abby,
I know how awkward it is to decide to take it to a higher authority when everything's been so subtle you wonder if maybe you're just overreacting. From my experience though, your gut instincts are probably right and if you do nothing, it will just continue to escalate (hence, the icky 20 minute "you're so sexy" phone thing).
The good news about that phone thing, while definitely icky, is that it shows you definitively that you are not overreacting, and that it is definitely time to take action. Also, it gives you something to tell your head instructor as a specific example of harrassment, which cannot be misconstrued as normal guy joking.
Be prepared for difficult questions (like Jeff's latest) and difficult reactions (like Debra's scenario, which is especially risky because one of the guys involved is a senior instructor at the school).
Good luck! :)
AikidoLady2005, thank you for your thoughts and your support. I know you are right about gut instincts.
Jeff, I appreciate your bluntness. Honestly, it made me so deeply uncomfortable that for a while I was too off-balance to do anything but try to avoid really answering any of his questions. I know that it probably doesn't make any sense, but when I'm really uncomfortable, I get like a rabbit who is so busy trying to dodge a hunter's individual bullets that it forgets it can hide in its hole.
dao, I appreciate your honesty. I prefer the truth, however unpleasant, to something that is warm and fuzzy but untrue. Frankly, if I do talk to the head instructor, I am assuming that it will go badly, as much as I like him. These men have a total of 45 years at the school compared to my 2, and as I've mentioned, they're both senior instructors. If I do talk to him, it will be on the off-chance that it might make a difference for some one later on. If some one complains about one of them farther down the line, the fact that it has been brought up before might make a difference to how the head instructor acts on it. If at all possible, I would like to resolve this without resorting to going to the head instructor. Armed with the reassurance that their behavior really is unacceptable, I will see if I can get this thing more under control by myself first.
Armed with the reassurance that their behavior really is unacceptable, I will see if I can get this thing more under control by myself first.
Sounds like a plan :wink2: ! Good luck.
Thanks, Jaclyn, for your continued thoughts and suggestions.
Thanks, dao.
Key word: Predatory. Find another dojang.
You could have taken a little more control of the situation, as others have said, but for many reasons you didn't. Live - learn - move on. You like TKD, go somewhere else and learn to love TKD. There are other styles as well - don't limit your learning. Don't let others limit your experiences - or over shadow them. Take control and get on with it. Don't bother with exit interviews and drama - just go.
Thanks for the advice, Eliz. I've certainly made a number of (often naive) mistakes in this situation that I won't be repeating any time soon. And, in an odd turn of events, I just found out tonight that I got a good-looking job offer from an organization in a different state. This makes me inclined to follow your advice about how to leave this dojang, since it appears I am going to be leaving anyway in a month and a half no-matter-what. I think I just have to be as professional as possible for the next six weeks and then I'm gone.
Jay Bell
04-03-2007, 05:11
Thanks for the advice, Eliz. I've certainly made a number of (often naive) mistakes in this situation that I won't be repeating any time soon. And, in an odd turn of events, I just found out tonight that I got a good-looking job offer from an organization in a different state. This makes me inclined to follow your advice about how to leave this dojang, since it appears I am going to be leaving anyway in a month and a half no-matter-what. I think I just have to be as professional as possible for the next six weeks and then I'm gone.
No...you really don't. If someone steps over the line (as you've mentioned in your previous posts), diplomacy has a definate boundry. Putting your foot down when people around you are being inappropriate is not a bad thing.. There's times when we have to define our boundries to those around us...and if things get worse, it's okay to be blunt. You're being worked over. That is never okay.
Abby, your answer says that he takes advantage of your good-nature and desire to avoid confrontation. As the others have rightly said, you have to establish firm boundaries, do not compromise on them, and be specifically and forcefully clear what the rules and boundaries are - all without trying to be overly aggressive. In your case, though, overly-aggressive would certainly be justified.
Good luck!
Jeff Cook
Jay Bell, thanks for your thoughts. I think Eliz's advice is tempting because in some ways it would be easier, but I also understand that the right thing to do and the easiest thing to do are rarely the same thing. After chewing over all of the useful advice I've gotten on this board, I think I need to talk directly and bluntly to the guy who has been bothering me the longest, and I think just being uber-professional with the other one will make him stop because he's much less pushy.
Jeff, thank you for your continued thoughts. When I try to talk to this guy, I will strive to be blunt like you, rather than be rabbit-like the way I have been.
I think Eliz's advice is tempting because in some ways it would be easier, but I also understand that the right thing to do and the easiest thing to do are rarely the same thing.
Sorry, but I stand by my statement. If you are dealing with a predatory situation, best to move on and concentrate your energies elsewhere. Should the calls persist, etc., than turn and take a stand.
Moving on and putting this behind you is not easy. It is effective.
Congratulations on the new job. Hope everything works out well for you. :toast:
Thank you for your advice, Eliz, and for your good wishes on my new job. I appreciate hearing differing opinions. The problem is, and maybe it is silly, that I'm not ready to walk away from this dojang a month earlier than I have to, because there are a couple of things that I am learning there that I would like to understand better before I leave.
But I think I have said a total of 15 words to this man in the last 3 months, and he still hasn't entirely backed off, although he hasn't called me again. So, at this point, I think the only tool I have left to try and make him leave me alone, so that I can concentrate on my training for the next 6 weeks and then leave, is to say something to him. I'm not looking to get into any long, drawn-out discussions with him, or to try and mend any fences.
I hope I did not offend you by calling your advice the easier path. Thinking about it, that is an over-simplification. I have a lot of respect for your opinion based on the things you have written on this board.
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