Terms I'm not familiar with

[HeatherMac]

There are many things I've yet to learn in Shorinji Kempo. I would like for you to share the words that have been diffcult for learning and explain the meaning. This will be an opportunity for me to learn from my superiors. Thank you.
I will start with a word that I don't know the meaning of....Dan.. What does dan mean?

[Prince Loeffler]

What does dan mean?


Depends on the usage of the word. Literally it means - Step(s) or Grade, Order, or page.

Hope this helps !

[Tripitaka of AA]

Hi Heather. Wow, you picked a tricky one this time!

I say that, because it is one of those areas where there are just so many answers, and never enough time to do them justice. For a start, we'll all be learning different things at different times and what was difficult for one person might prove easy for the next, so sharing our personal "difficult" ones might not prove as helpful as some more general advice (but perhaps more entertaining :) ).

Your first example "dan" illustrates one problem quite clearly; that of the homonym, a word which sounds like an other (others), but which might carry a totally different meaning. I wonder now if you meant dan as in dan grade students (black-belt-wearing yudansha), or as you might hear it when naming techniques, eg. harai uke dan zuki...? Or perhaps that is the same dan after all :D

My most difficult phrase in class is the one we used to begin or end each section:- "Taiso o hajimemasu"/"taiso o owarimasu", "Kihon o hajimemasu"/"kihon o owarimasu"
As Sensei picks out a senior student to lead the line-up, that gets to call it out, the opportunity to say it is relatively rare until you've been around the class for a while, yet when it comes there is a lot of pressure to get it right. You're standing at the front of the whole class and they're all listening to hear you say it... the nerves of public speaking can kick in and you can end up sounding like a bumbling idiot.

I found that I got curious enough about the language that I decided to enroll in some Evening Classes at a local school to learn Japanese. While the classes were very much based on normal conversation (not yelling at each other and naming techniques all the time ;) ), it really helped to make the connection between the sound of the words and their meaning. It made it easier for me to look at new words and make an accurate guess of how they might be pronounced, and sometimes it made it easier for me to recognise the technique name... Most of all, it helped me to recognise the words when spoken by different people. I had found it difficult to recognise the technique names when they were said by people other than those with whom I regularly trained, but when I grew more confident about the language it all made more sense. It also meant that I was slightly more likely to be saying it "right"... well, slightly!

Those examples above simply meant "warm-ups start"/"warm-ups finish", "basics start"/"basics finish".


Perhaps other readers might like to contribute their "heard in error" stories, or even some useful tips on how to overcome the language barriers...

[Nina]

Since a long time I am wondering whether there is an abbrevation of "arigato gozaimashita" which is regularly used, otherwise I don`t understand why some people need half of the time to say it than me...

[sheb]

I thought that you learn Japanese? Didn't you write something like that? Did you stop it?

[Ewok]

Since a long time I am wondering whether there is an abbrevation of "arigato gozaimashita" which is regularly used, otherwise I don`t understand why some people need half of the time to say it than me...

"azasu!" :laugh:

[Tripitaka of AA]

As I understand it, "arigato gozaimashita" is about as polite as you'd need for any normal conversation (possibly not polite enough for talking to the Emperor, but good enough for everyone else). Anything less formal and you could run into difficulties that arise from the need to balance the role of the speaker, the level of thanks required, the relative level of the recipient and the general formality of the conversation. :eek:

In English (British) you could choose from;
"Thank you very much"
"Thank you"
"Thanks"
"Ta"
"Cheers"

And I suppose that German and every other language has a similar choice of permutations available. In Japanese, there are possibly even more variations to choose from. Always best to stick at the highest level, until you are sure of the appropriateness of any alternative that you have heard others use.

Just saying "Domo", is easy, lazy and shows a that you really don't think that the other person deserved anything more... is that the impression you intend? Or were you just hoping that by using the smallest word, you might manage to say it without falling over your tongue?

Leon could expound further on this ;), as simply by being an Australian, he has probably had a huge hill to climb when it comes to learning etiquette :p

[Nadine]

Don't know how its spelled, it sounds like "kokahite", I sometimes hear it when Japanese people explain a technique?
What does it mean?

[Ewok]

As I understand it, "arigato gozaimashita" is about as polite as you'd need for any normal conversation (possibly not polite enough for talking to the Emperor, but good enough for everyone else).

Correct. What I wrote isn't very polite, technically, its what "young men" say. Its a really, really short (or fast) version of arigatogozaimashita.


Leon could expound further on this ;), as simply by being an Australian, he has probably had a huge hill to climb when it comes to learning etiquette :p

I'll bite you :D


Don't know how its spelled, it sounds like "kokahite", I sometimes hear it when Japanese people explain a technique?
What does it mean?

"koko hitte" - pull here :) (koko= here, hiku is the verb for pull, which as a command is hitte)

Also used is "hipatte", same thing - pull.

Push is "osu", which as a command is "oshi-te" - pronounced more like "oshh-teh"

[Luar]

"koko hitte" - pull here :) (koko= here, hiku is the verb for pull, which as a command is hitte)


Koko hitte my finger.... go ahead :p

[Nadine]

"koko hitte" - pull here :) (koko= here, hiku is the verb for pull, which as a command is hitte)

Also used is "hipatte", same thing - pull.

Push is "osu", which as a command is "oshi-te" - pronounced more like "oshh-teh"
Thank you for the explanation.
Now everything makes sense...:rolleyes:

[Tripitaka of AA]

Thank you for the explanation.
Now everything makes sense...:rolleyes:


how can anyone ever doubt the value of a forum like this?!

but are you sure that it is everything? :D

[Ewok]

Keep an eye on this page: http://www.leonjp.com/wiki/Shorinji_Kempo_Terminology

I've got a few hundred words in an excel document on my computer that I'm sorting out, and I'll put them up later today if I get time. It should help out a bit :)

[Luar]

Keep an eye on this page: http://www.leonjp.com/wiki/Shorinji_Kempo_Terminology

I've got a few hundred words in an excel document on my computer that I'm sorting out, and I'll put them up later today if I get time. It should help out a bit :)

You are spelling "Thank You" as one word. Outside of that it looks great.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Ettiquitte = etiquette


I like it so far. Desu/des is a non-standard way to write it but I can see the logic behind that, as it is much easier for a non-Japanese to see how it will sound, without the "u" (although in Japanese itself there is no "s", only sa, shi, su, se or so).

[Ewok]

'Thank you' is one word for coding reasons. And yeah, spelling has been fixed :rolleyes:

I'm going with pronunciation over correct romanisation, but if its too distracting, click edit at the top and feel free to change it :D

[Nina]

Is `Me Uchi` still `Me Uchi` if you don`t target at the eyes?

[Anders Pettersson]

Is `Me Uchi` still `Me Uchi` if you don`t target at the eyes?
NO.

If you look in the Kyouhan, or the Tokuhon, you can see that the different types of strikes that we have in Shorinjikempo listed.

Me uchi is not listed there, because the "proper" name would be urate uchi [裏手打], which is one of six different types of kaishu uchi [開手打] (open hand strikes).

I hope sthis helps.

/Anders

[Tripitaka of AA]

Is `Me Uchi` still `Me Uchi` if you don`t target at the eyes?
Great question Nina! One I've been meaning to ask (... for twenty years).

What do they call it in the kamokyuho when it is used for Tsuki Nuki?



Oops! Anders answered before I noticed... Thanks Sensei. So what does that make the Tsuki Nuki version?... kinteki uchi?

[Anders Pettersson]

Oops! Anders answered before I noticed... Thanks Sensei. So what does that make the Tsuki Nuki version?... kinteki uchi?
Well it isn't written in the kamokuhyo. For tsuki nuki the only notes for shusha (the defender) in the kamoku is that one should use tsuitate shuho.

But is should be just urate uchi, or kinteki uchi as you suggest would be understandable.

/Anders

[sheb]

Me uchi is not listed there, because the "proper" name would be urate uchi [裏手打], which is one of six different types of kaishu uchi [開手打] (open hand strikes).Where can one find such detailed information? Only by experience and/or Japanese knowledge (and having the Kyouhan)?

[Anders Pettersson]

Me uchi is not listed there, because the "proper" name would be urate uchi [裏手打], which is one of six different types of kaishu uchi [開手打] (open hand strikes).Where can one find such detailed information? Only by experience and/or Japanese knowledge (and having the Kyouhan)?
Well most of what I wrote are available to almost all kenshi, but knowing a little bit of Japanese and having the Kyohan can help.

All kihon are listed with there name in the Shorinjikempo Tokuhon (as well as the old Fukudoku-hon) that all kenshi could have.
In the kyohan there are some short explanation of each kihon technique, but in many cases this is very short and not so detailed.
What I have done, before I had the Kyohan (which I think any kenshi that is nidan or above can get), was to make my own list with explanation of each waza, both hokei and kihon.
As I mentioned the Kihon is listed in each category (tai gamae, sokui ho, umpoho, taisabaki, kogi, bogi and shuho) in the Tokuhon. Just write them down and ask different instructors or senior kenshi to explain each of them you don't know. :)

/Anders

[Nadine]

Are the strikes with closed hand called zuki and with open hands uchi?is same kanji for uchi-inner?

[Nina]

Probably all kihon is listed in the Fukudoku-hon, but you don`t get a hint what it`s all about, except that you get the name...And the problem is that you don`t know what you should know. Is the Kyohan some kind of guide line for preparing for a technique? And is it the same like they show on the dvds?

[Nina]

Sorry, meant to prepare for examination.

[Anders Pettersson]

Are the strikes with closed hand called zuki and with open hands uchi?is same kanji for uchi-inner?
No, the difference of tsuki [突] and uchi [打] is that tsuki is more movement with body and arm, uchi is more of a "snap" (not sure if that is the best word in English) more useing only the arm.

There is uchi with both open hand, called kaishu uchi [開手打] and fist, akken uchi [握拳打].

The kanji for uchi as in strike is not the same as in uchi for inner/insdie.
Uchi as in strike/hit is written like this: 打 this kanji can also be read as utsu or da as in dabo [打棒] (used in chinkon-gyo).
Uchi as in inner/inside is written like this: 内 this kanji can also be read as nai.

/Anders

[Anders Pettersson]

Probably all kihon is listed in the Fukudoku-hon, but you don`t get a hint what it`s all about, except that you get the name...And the problem is that you don`t know what you should know.
Actually some of the headings for the different subgroups of kihon waza in the Tokuhon is in English. You could also look at the kihon part on this page (http://www.shorinji-kempo.org/index.php?cms_page=technique&cms_action=cms_set_language&cms_argument_1=EN), that will give you some idea. It shows all groups and subgroups of kihon, with translation. It doesn't explain or give the name for the actual techniques though, but will give you an idea of the structure.

As for to what rank one need to know each kihon, this is not specified. I think most seniors don't know all by heart, they would have to look up what some of the techniques are. This is not saying that they can't do the technique, just that one don't use the name very much.
Learn the hokei and then learn what kihon build up each hokei.


Is the Kyohan some kind of guide line for preparing for a technique? And is it the same like they show on the dvds?

The kyohan list all techniques, both kihon and all hokei, and of course a lot of philosophy. However, the description of each technique is mostly very short and you can't really learn, but it is a guideline. Only a few has pictures along with the text.
A little difficult to explain, but next time we meet ask me and I could read what it says for a few hokei and you would get the idea.
I think Jörg has hte Kyohan, and he should be able to read it better than me, ask him. :)

/Anders

[sheb]

What I have done, before I had the Kyohan (which I think any kenshi that is nidan or above can get), was to make my own list with explanation of each waza, both hokei and kihon.... I'm doing this also.

Probably all kihon is listed in the Fukudoku-hon, but you don`t get a hint what it`s all about, except that you get the name...... right, so I have to do this:
write them down and ask different instructors or senior kenshi to explain each of them you don't know. :) ... prepare for a lot of questions :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: , Nina sempai. :D

[Nadine]

No, the difference of tsuki [突] and uchi [打] is that tsuki is more movement with body and arm, uchi is more of a "snap" (not sure if that is the best word in English) more useing only the arm.

The kanji for uchi as in strike is not the same as in uchi for inner/insdie.

Thank you for the explanation. But why is Shuto Uchi called so? :confused:

[HeatherMac]

Depends on the usage of the word. Literally it means - Step(s) or Grade, Order, or page.

Hope this helps !

Thank you. This helps.

[HeatherMac]

Hi Heather. Wow, you picked a tricky one this time!

I say that, because it is one of those areas where there are just so many answers, and never enough time to do them justice. For a start, we'll all be learning different things at different times and what was difficult for one person might prove easy for the next, so sharing our personal "difficult" ones might not prove as helpful as some more general advice (but perhaps more entertaining :) ).

Your first example "dan" illustrates one problem quite clearly; that of the homonym, a word which sounds like an other (others), but which might carry a totally different meaning. I wonder now if you meant dan as in dan grade students (black-belt-wearing yudansha), or as you might hear it when naming techniques, eg. harai uke dan zuki...? Or perhaps that is the same dan after all :D

My most difficult phrase in class is the one we used to begin or end each section:- "Taiso o hajimemasu"/"taiso o owarimasu", "Kihon o hajimemasu"/"kihon o owarimasu"
As Sensei picks out a senior student to lead the line-up, that gets to call it out, the opportunity to say it is relatively rare until you've been around the class for a while, yet when it comes there is a lot of pressure to get it right. You're standing at the front of the whole class and they're all listening to hear you say it... the nerves of public speaking can kick in and you can end up sounding like a bumbling idiot.

I found that I got curious enough about the language that I decided to enroll in some Evening Classes at a local school to learn Japanese. While the classes were very much based on normal conversation (not yelling at each other and naming techniques all the time ;) ), it really helped to make the connection between the sound of the words and their meaning. It made it easier for me to look at new words and make an accurate guess of how they might be pronounced, and sometimes it made it easier for me to recognise the technique name... Most of all, it helped me to recognise the words when spoken by different people. I had found it difficult to recognise the technique names when they were said by people other than those with whom I regularly trained, but when I grew more confident about the language it all made more sense. It also meant that I was slightly more likely to be saying it "right"... well, slightly!

Those examples above simply meant "warm-ups start"/"warm-ups finish", "basics start"/"basics finish".


Perhaps other readers might like to contribute their "heard in error" stories, or even some useful tips on how to overcome the language barriers...


Thank you. This does help a lot.

[Nadine]

I have another question:
How is the " normal" forward step called, only mae?

[Anders Pettersson]

I have another question:
How is the " normal" forward step called, only mae?
Depends on what step you think is the "normal" one. ;)

Here is all the forward footwork:

出足 de ashi
踏込足 fumikomi ashi
前寄足 mae yose ashi
差込足 sashikomi ashi
差替足 sashikae ashi
前千鳥足 mae chidori ashi
跳込足 tobikomi ashi
前蜘蛛足 mae kumo ashi


But I suspect that you think of either mae chidori ashi (slightly diagonally forward) or sashi komi ashi (straight forward).

/Anders

[sheb]

Thank you for the explanation. But why is Shuto Uchi called so? :confused:
Perhaps because it's a "snap" with the shuto ...?

[Nadine]

But I suspect that you think of either mae chidori ashi (slightly diagonally forward) or sashi komi ashi (straight forward).

/Anders
Hmm, I mean the step straight forward, like mae chidori ashi, but not diagonally. I thought sashi komi ashi is first the front foot forward, then the rear foot to the front foot and then the front foot a little bit forward?

[Anders Pettersson]

I just noticed that I missed the last one of the de ashi in my previous post.

Here is all the forward footwork:

出足 de ashi
踏込足 fumikomi ashi
前寄足 mae yose ashi
差込足 sashikomi ashi
差替足 sashikae ashi
前千鳥足 mae chidori ashi
跳込足 tobikomi ashi
前蜘蛛足 mae kumo ashi
前転足 mae tensoku



/Anders[/QUOTE]

[Anders Pettersson]

Hmm, I mean the step straight forward, like mae chidori ashi, but not diagonally. I thought sashi komi ashi is first the front foot forward, then the rear foot to the front foot and then the front foot a little bit forward?
No, sashi komi ashi is just moving straight forward, front foot first, then rear foot.
What you describe, if I interpret it correctly, could be described as fumi komi ashi followed by mae kumo ashi.

/Anders

[Nadine]

No, sashi komi ashi is just moving straight forward, front foot first, then rear foot.

Is the counterpart jun sagari?

[Nadine]

What you describe, if I interpret it correctly, could be described as fumi komi ashi followed by mae kumo ashi.

I wanted to describe the step like one can see here under the name Sachikomi ashi: http://kenseikai.world.coocan.jp/gihou/kihon/engmove.htm#unsoku

:confused:

[Anders Pettersson]

Is the counterpart jun sagari?
Yes.

/Anders

[Anders Pettersson]

I wanted to describe the step like one can see here under the name Sachikomi ashi: http://kenseikai.world.coocan.jp/gihou/kihon/engmove.htm#unsoku

:confused:
I would say that the text is correct, but no the animated gif.

/Anders

[Anders Pettersson]

I guess either I have to visit you guys in Berlin, or you have to come to Karlstad.
So we could go over all the kihon. That would probably be quicker than doing it here on Budoseek. :)

/Anders

[Nadine]

I guess either I have to visit you guys in Berlin, or you have to come to Karlstad.
So we could go over all the kihon. That would probably be quicker than doing it here on Budoseek. :)

/Anders
That's a great idea!

[HeatherMac]

I thought that you learn Japanese? Didn't you write something like that? Did you stop it?

oh. sorry for the delay in my response. I am still trying to understand Japanese, by studying. But, I need more help with Shorinji Kempo terms. Thank you.

[Nina]

How does one call the part of the index finger which is sometimes used to press a vital point? I only found it on the Kenseikai-Homepage were it is described as Choujide. I do not doubt that it is called like that, but under this name I couldn`t find anything else in the net (ok, that doesn`t mean anything...;) ). So I wonder if there probably exists another name?

[Anders Pettersson]

How does one call the part of the index finger which is sometimes used to press a vital point? I only found it on the Kenseikai-Homepage were it is described as Choujide. I do not doubt that it is called like that, but under this name I couldn`t find anything else in the net (ok, that doesn`t mean anything...;) ). So I wonder if there probably exists another name?
What you think of is probably chōji [丁字], most of the times I say it with out the te/de [手] which means hand. But it could be romanized in the way Kensikai homepage writes it.
Chōjide litterally means hand in the shape of the character "chō ", which kind of looks like a "T".

/Anders

[Blue Popovic]

Gassho.

To Nadine and all those who have trouble remembering names in Japanese ;

Firstly if you still haven't, get your hands on a copy of the Tokuhon and carry it with you at all times : read it at lunchbreak, while on your way to work if you use public transport, in the waiting room at the dentist LOL ... it is an invaluable source of information and almost all of the tsuki, keri, uke types we use are listed, as well as all the body movements, foot placement names in japanese, with two easy columns for forward and backward movement, thus helping you to remember the "opposite" move of each.

Secondly, do the very useful mind training exercise to decompose the tenchikens in all their japanese components, from start till end (every body movement, every block and every strike). Once you naturally can do it without any mistake, you've made it :-)

Lastly, get in the habit, after each training session, to IMMEDIATELY write down all you have learned in kihon, Hokei, sotai practice and the syllabus techniques you worked on on the day.
Set your own methodology. If you manage to be rigorous, you will quickly build a strong database of terms, of useful techniques' tips and tricks from all the people you may be taught by here and there, and your confidence will grow.

It was hard work for me, but without speaking japanese, I now have reached a stage where every word we use makes sense and the language barrier is almost gone :-)

Here is a very good visual reference tool, taken from the south coast British Federation website (scroll down on the left hand site navigation column to "stances" or "foot movement", it is very clear and well explained : http://www.shorinji.co.uk/kenshi/kenshi.html

Enjoy your training,

Kesshu.

[Nadine]

What does the word "kari" mean in kari ashi? Is a kari ashi like sokuto geri?

[sheb]

What does the word "kari" mean in kari ashi? Is a kari ashi like sokuto geri?This question seems to be hard to answer on... :D

[Tripitaka of AA]

I'm sorry Nadine, but I don't know the answer. I don't have any notes at my house, they are all down in London at my Mum's.

The answer you seek will probably come from someone who has access to the word as its written in Japanese Kanji. That way they can be sure they are looking up the correct definition in the dictionary. Without the appropriate Kanji, it gets a bit silly. For example, my pocket Websters Japanese dictionary gives these four definitions for "kari";

kari wild goose
kari hunting
kari debt, loan
kari no temporary


All of which might be completely misleading nonsense. You need to know the Kanji used in the Shorinji Kempo phrase.

I'm guessing that you already knew this. But your question deserved some kind of answer... :)

[RickMatz]

I don't study Shorinji Kempo, but I do study Japanese. I was playing with a dictionary, and came up with 刈足 as kanji for "kari ashi." The first character could mean "cut" or "reap." The second character means "foot" or "step."

Would this make any sense in your context?

[Nadine]

Would this make any sense in your context?
Yes, I think so; thank you.

[Nadine]

reap = harvest?
Or more the move of a reaping hook?

[Tripitaka of AA]

Nadine, it might be best to wait for Leon to answer. Or maybe PM him...
Of course, there are others also (Anders, David Dunn, etc.)...

[Nadine]

Nadine, it might be best to wait for Leon to answer. Or maybe PM him...
Of course, there are others also (Anders, David Dunn, etc.)...
Yes, there' s no hurry...

[Luar]

Yes, there' s no hurry...

but life is short!!!

[Anders Pettersson]

What does the word "kari" mean in kari ashi? Is a kari ashi like sokuto geri?

The kanji Rick Matz posted are correct. (Thanks for that Rick.)

Kari [刈] means "reap", as in cutting down grains when you harvest.
It is similar to "sweep", but not exactly the same.
The word kari [刈] is not related to keri.

In ShorinjiKempo we have 5 types of kara ashi [刈足]
1. 脚刀刈 kyakutō gari
2. 後踵刈 ushiro kakato gari
3. 足刀刈 sokutō gari
4. 内足刀刈 nai sokutō gari
5. 足底刈 sokutei gari

The type commonly used after chidori gaeshi is a sokutō gari [足刀刈]


I hope this helps.
/Anders

[Anders Pettersson]

but life is short!!!
Sorry for replying late, was in UK for a couple of days.

/Anders

[Luar]

Sorry for replying late, was in UK for a couple of days.

/Anders

Were you training?

[Anders Pettersson]

Were you training?
Of course. :)

[Nadine]

Thank you Anders-sensei.:bow:

[sheb]

The type commonly used after chidori gaeshi is a sokutō gari [足刀刈]
... and where is the difference between performing sokuto geri and sokuto gari?

[Anders Pettersson]

... and where is the difference between performing sokuto geri and sokuto gari?
Gassho.

Hi Sven.

Well, allthough they make contact with the same part of the foot, sokutō geri [足刀蹴] is a kick and sokutō gari [足刀刈] is a reap. ;)

/Anders

[sheb]

Thanks. ... so it's just a reap because of the fact that the opponent is "reaped away" instead of "kicked away", right? I want to say that both are performed in the same way in principle (the movements of the leg/foot are the same ... more or less straight)?

[Anders Pettersson]

Thanks. ... so it's just a reap because of the fact that the opponent is "reaped away" instead of "kicked away", right? I want to say that both are performed in the same way in principle (the movements of the leg/foot are the same ... more or less straight)?
Yes, the movement of the leg is very similar, just the angle/direction that is different.
The main difference is maybe that sokutō gari is more like a pushing movement compared to the kick with make contact with the foot moving quick. (If that explanation makes any sense.)

/Anders

[Blue Popovic]

Gassho.
I was reading this thread... just wanted to say many thanks to Petersson Sensei for his instruction at the summer camp of the British federation.
I will remember your kindness and enthusiasm and hope to be receiving some more instruction from you one day.

Domo arigato gosaimashita.

Kesshu.

[Anders Pettersson]

Gassho.
I was reading this thread... just wanted to say many thanks to Petersson Sensei for his instruction at the summer camp of the British federation.
I will remember your kindness and enthusiasm and hope to be receiving some more instruction from you one day.

Domo arigato gosaimashita.

Kesshu.
Thanks Blue.

It was nice to meet you.
It is very likely that I will go to UK again, I have many friends there. SO I am sure that we will get a chance to practice together again.

/Anders

[Nadine]

Is there a special japanese word for breaking balance?

[Nina]

I there a special japanese word for breaking balance?
Kuzushi?..........

[Anders Pettersson]

Is there a special japanese word for breaking balance?
Kuzushi?..........
Yes, that would be correct.

That is the term we usually use, the kanji used [崩し] doesn't exactly mean breaking balance, more like "to destroy, to pull down" (according to a dictionary).
But in the context of discussing techniques it would be used for "breaking balance".

/Anders

[Nadine]

Is there a special japanese word for breaking balance?Kuzushi?..........
Yes, that would be correct.

That is the term we usually use, the kanji used [崩し] doesn't exactly mean breaking balance, more like "to destroy, to pull down" (according to a dictionary).
But in the context of discussing techniques it would be used for "breaking balance".

/Anders
Thank you for the answer. :bow:

[Nadine]

My question doesn't really fit in this thread, but I think it doesn't deserve an own one.. :o Are the tanen kihon hokei officially only from one starting side? I think I read something about it somewhere, but can't find it at the moment...:cool:

[sheb]

... at least in the fukudoku-hon is only one side described. ... good question.

[Kari Mäki-Kuutti]

My question doesn't really fit in this thread, but I think it doesn't deserve an own one.. :o Are the tanen kihon hokei officially only from one starting side? I think I read something about it somewhere, but can't find it at the moment...:cool:No. .

[Nadine]

No. .
Ok, thanks. :bow:

[Nadine]

Can anyone tell me the name of the kick, that is like mawashi geri but in the other direction to the outer side?

[Gary Dolce]

Can anyone tell me the name of the kick, that is like mawashi geri but in the other direction to the outer side?

I think you mean kaeshi geri (i.e., sometimes used as a counter-attack in gedan gaeshi or yoko tenshin geri).

[Anders Pettersson]

Can anyone tell me the name of the kick, that is like mawashi geri but in the other direction to the outer side?
Gary already gave you the name so I can just add the kanji: 返蹴

/Anders

[sheb]

Another question ;):

On http://kenseikai.world.coocan.jp/engindex.htm one can find "yoko geri" and it looks like sokuto geri. ... and in the fukudoku-hon one can't find sokuto geri, but yoko geri. So is yoko geri perhaps the official or older name or another name für sokuto geri?

[Anders Pettersson]

So is yoko geri perhaps the official or older name or another name für sokuto geri?
Yes, yoko geri is the official name of what we mostly call sokuto geri.

/Anders

[sheb]

taken from the "kata"-thread in the General Martial Arts - forum:

... and of course we also have bigger variations, henka, of hokei, but then it is called something else (a different hokei) or is just an application of a hokei.What does "henka" mean?

[Nina]

What does "henka" mean?
`Make the technique work`?

[Musubi Dojo]

Henka is a variation of the original technique. A different way of executing it.

[Anders Pettersson]

What does "henka" mean?
Just as Chris Luttrell wrote it means variation, I just thought that I should add the kanji: 変化

Within ShorinjiKempo some Hokei are stated in the kamokuhyo as henka of certain other hokei, like gyakute nage. In the Englsih curriculum it says:
gyakute nage - adaption of gyaku gote
In Japanese: gyakute nage - gyaku gote yori henka [逆手投　逆小手より変化]

But I would say that most of the times when we talk about henka we mean non-official variations of cetain hokei.


/Anders

[Nina]

Sorry to bring this up again, but is there any term for the pendant of shuho, when you are not grabbed at the wrist? so I mean going into stable position?

[sheb]

... isn't it also called shuho??? How different kinds of shuho do we have in Shorinji Kempo?


btw: Any Budoseek Shorinji Kempo kenshi still alive :D

[Anders Pettersson]

How different kinds of shuho do we have in Shorinji Kempo?
There are seven different kinds, but kagite shuho is by far most common.
They are:
kagite shuhō 鈎手守法
tsuitate shuhō 衝立守法
sankaku shuhō 三角守法
konoha shuhō 木葉守法
chōji shuhō 丁字守法
kubi jime shuhō 首締守法
hagai shuhō 羽交守法


/Anders

[Gary Dolce]

There are seven different kinds, but kagite shuho is by far most common.
They are:
kagite shuhō 鈎手守法
tsuitate shuhō 衝立守法
sankaku shuhō 三角守法
konoha shuhō 木葉守法
chōji shuhō 丁字守法
kubi jime shuhō 首締守法
hagai shuhō 羽交守法


/Anders

Gassho Anders,

Thanks for listing these. All are familiar except that I can't remember choji shuho. Can you provide a brief summary of the application for choji shuho?

Thanks,
Gary

[Anders Pettersson]

Thanks for listing these. All are familiar except that I can't remember choji shuho. Can you provide a brief summary of the application for choji shuho?

Gassho
Hi Gary.

In the Kyohan this is the only explanation I have found:

丁字守法　　　丁字と云う独得の技を防ぐ方法である。
However this doesn't really tell me a lot.

I have made some notes/glossary for all kihon over the years and the explanation I have written for choji shuho is "defence against chōji, higher kagite so that the opponent can’t use chōji"

Not a very clear answer but i hopes it helps.

/Anders

[Jeremy Williams]

Anders,

The shuho you refer to is usually described in practice as the the tekagami position (hand curved inward, palm up, fingertips pointing toward self) found in oshigote. Adopting this position neutralizes the choji-mediated nerve attack to the lower forearm from which this waza begins. Even in Japan, very few kenshi seem to know these terms any more, even though they know the defense, and most know the proper attack (that is to say, a kyusho attack rather than a mere grab).

HTH

[Nina]

The shuho you refer to is usually described in practice as the the tekagami position (hand curved inward, palm up, fingertips pointing toward self) found in oshigote.
Does that mean that chōji shuhō is just some kind of kagite shuhō? Or does the hand, fingers etc. have to be in a certain position, in order to call it kagite shuhō?

[Jeremy Williams]

Nina,

Kagite shuho is the kind of shuho you use when doing gyaku gote, for example. There are 6 other kinds of shuho listed in the Kyohan, of which choji shuho is one (see earlier post by Anders for complete list). Choji shuho is how I described it before. It is specifically designed to protect you against the pain of a choji attack to the outer side of the wrist. Just remember that "shuho" just means "way of protecting".

[Nina]

If I understood it correctly, kagite shuho means a kind of protection, where your arm is in the shape of a hook, elbow on the body. Doesn`t that also apply to the shuho that you use in oshi gote? I was also tought to make another kind of shuho in oshi gote than in gyaku gote and it sounds like you have described it earlier, but I wasn`t aware of the fact, that it isn`t kagite shuho anymore. I mean you do slight variations of kagite shuho, depending on the attack? Sorry, but I am just a little bit confused...

[Jeremy Williams]

Nina,

Kagite shuho is the first type of shuho learned, and it teaches the most important point: keeping your elbow close to your own body. However, certain other attacks require a different approach, and you will learn these as you go along. Probably the first variant you will learn is the choji shuho used in oshigote. It is slightly different to the standard kagite shuho, as the attack is to the nerves of the wrist, which can be very painful.

Please don't worry about this. Most Japanese kenshi just learn the appropriate move, and don't know the correct term for it. I feel that non-Japanese kenshi worry about this kind of thing a little more than they need to.
Just copy the sensei and that'll be enough!

[David Dunn]

it teaches the most important point: keeping your elbow close to your own body...

Spot Jeremy's secret point :)

Kagite shuho is will the elbow close to the body. Mizuno Sensei describes that you should be able to hold a tennis ball between your elbow and your body - he said "Kaiso's method". If you experiment with it, you can find that you have less tension in your upper body

[Jeremy Williams]

Spot Jeremy's secret point :)

Kagite shuho is will the elbow close to the body. Mizuno Sensei describes that you should be able to hold a tennis ball between your elbow and your body - he said "Kaiso's method". If you experiment with it, you can find that you have less tension in your upper body

It is obvious from this that Mizuno Sensei has been culturally corrupted by his long stay in the UK. No sensei over here would dare to use anything other than a baseball.

One other important point is to keep the arm as relaxed as possible while exerting slight tension between the shoulder blades. This works beautifully, but is hard to do under stress (randori) without quite a bit of practise.

[David Dunn]

It is obvious from this that Mizuno Sensei has been culturally corrupted by his long stay in the UK. No sensei over here would dare to use anything other than a baseball.

Probably true Jeremy :) He uses baseball pitching sometimes as analogy, but not for this point.

Thanks for the other tip - I'll be trying that out.

[Rob Gassin]

It is obvious from this that Mizuno Sensei has been culturally corrupted by his long stay in the UK. No sensei over here would dare to use anything other than a baseball.

One other important point is to keep the arm as relaxed as possible while exerting slight tension between the shoulder blades. This works beautifully, but is hard to do under stress (randori) without quite a bit of practise.

If it was just a cultural thing, Mizuno sensei would have used a cricket ball as analogy. Did he use the tennis ball, because it is a bit softer and therefore easier to hold and keep relaxed at the same time???

[Tripitaka of AA]

I expect Dave to ask him at his first opportunity... im the meantime we must all meditate on whether a tennis ball, cricket ball, baseball, grapefruit or apple is the most appropriate object to hide under our elbows while executing grab defences ;)

[Jeremy Williams]

If it was just a cultural thing, Mizuno sensei would have used a cricket ball as analogy. Did he use the tennis ball, because it is a bit softer and therefore easier to hold and keep relaxed at the same time???

No, no, no! It is obvious that. although culturally corrupted, Mizuno Sensei was at least going for the real thing: real tennis, there is; real cricket, there is not.

[Anders Pettersson]

Anders,

The shuho you refer to is usually described in practice as the the tekagami position (hand curved inward, palm up, fingertips pointing toward self) found in oshigote. Adopting this position neutralizes the choji-mediated nerve attack to the lower forearm from which this waza begins. Even in Japan, very few kenshi seem to know these terms any more, even though they know the defense, and most know the proper attack (that is to say, a kyusho attack rather than a mere grab).

HTH

I remembered that i didn't reply to this one.
Thanks for the explanation Jeremy. Tekagami makes sense and is clearing the clouds from my poor memory. :)
I think that I was taught that it was used in oshi gote when I first asked about choji shuho (some 18 years ago I guess). But I don't think I've heard tekagami before, that was a good description.

/Anders

[Jeremy Williams]

Anders,

You are welcome. I'm just glad to hear that I'm not the only one who as trouble recalling all these terms from time to time!

[Nina]

Hi,
can anyone tell me what kakuritsu ken dai ikkei/nikkei is?

[Blue Popovic]

The KAKURITSU KEN FAMILY is composed of 3 techniques where defense and ensuing counter attack is from kakuritsu dachi > hiza uke defense and keri counter attack.
In the same way as with tsubame gaeshi (I'm just using this as an analogy), there shouldn't be any stop between the defense/block and counter-attack with the same limb ; it should flow wave-like (hence nami gaeshi).
Kakuritsu ken dai ikkei = kinteki geri hiza uke nami gaeshi
Kakuritsu ken dai nikkei = gyaku geri hiza uke nami gaeshi
Mawashi geri sambo ukenami gaeshi is the 3rd technique, and i wouldn't be surprised if it is classified as kakuritsu ken dai sankei - but I've never come across it under this classification though.

[Nina]

Ahh, thank you Blue!

[Anders Pettersson]

The KAKURITSU KEN FAMILY is composed of 3 techniques where defense and ensuing counter attack is from kakuritsu dachi > hiza uke defense and keri counter attack.
In the same way as with tsubame gaeshi (I'm just using this as an analogy), there shouldn't be any stop between the defense/block and counter-attack with the same limb ; it should flow wave-like (hence nami gaeshi).
Kakuritsu ken dai ikkei = kinteki geri hiza uke nami gaeshi
Kakuritsu ken dai nikkei = gyaku geri hiza uke nami gaeshi
Mawashi geri sambo ukenami gaeshi is the 3rd technique, and i wouldn't be surprised if it is classified as kakuritsu ken dai sankei - but I've never come across it under this classification though.

Actually mawashi geri sambo uke nami gaeshi is the kakuritsuken dai yon (4).
There are five different hokei in the kakuritsu ken group.


/Anders

[Blue Popovic]

Actually mawashi geri sambo uke nami gaeshi is the kakuritsuken dai yon (4).
There are five different hokei in the kakuritsu ken group.


/Anders

My apologies... what I meant is there are 3 kakuritsu ken techniques in the shodan kamoku.
So, 3 that i know, sofar.
Thank you sensei for pointing out that there are indeed 5, so would you be as kind as to enlighten me -us- as to what are kakuritsu ken dai san and dai go?

Btw : it was a pleasure receiving instruction from you and seeing you again at the BSKF summer camp!

Petersson sensei, i have a few questions to ask you directly, could you please send me your email address @ zanshinblue@yahoo.co.uk

[Anders Pettersson]

My apologies... what I meant is there are 3 kakuritsu ken techniques in the shodan kamoku.
So, 3 that i know, sofar.
Thank you sensei for pointing out that there are indeed 5, so would you be as kind as to enlighten me -us- as to what are kakuritsu ken dai san and dai go?

Btw : it was a pleasure receiving instruction from you and seeing you again at the BSKF summer camp!

Nothing to apology for.

Kakuritsuken dai san is sokuto geri hiki ashi nami gaeshi, and
kakuritsuken dai go is dan geri sambo uke dan geri gaeshi.

I also enjoyed the BSKF gasshuku, good to met many old friends.
I've sent you an email.

/Anders

[Nina]

Maybe it`s a stupid Q, but does it just mean the technique or a single
form? I guess it`s just the hokei, but why does it have that name?

[David Dunn]

Maybe it`s a stupid Q, but does it just mean the technique or a single
form? I guess it`s just the hokei, but why does it have that name?

Hi Nina,
I hope I understand your question correctly. The technique is just the technique, whether it is performed tan'en or sotai. They are just alternative names for the same technique, like tenno ken dai ikkei and tsuki ten ichi are just alternative names for the same thing.

I don't know if it helps the discussion, but the 'kei' on the end of ikkei, nikei etc, means something like "form" or "shape" (can be read 'kata' also), just the same as 'hokei'. Maybe that helps to understand how the kei comes to be on the end of the numbered patterns.

Kakuritsu is the crane standing on one leg, so hence the name of the ken family. Maybe to teach about jiko kakuritsu :)

[Anders Pettersson]

Maybe it`s a stupid Q, but does it just mean the technique or a single form? I guess it`s just the hokei, but why does it have that name?

David explained what I understood was your question. But since i already planed a reply I will post anyway.

Many are used to that the single forms (tanen hōkei) are called "xx dai ikkei", "xx dai nikei" etc., since there are several of them they are called #xx the first", "xx the second", etc. All hōkei (and remember that when we talk about hōkei we usually mean the pair forms, single forms are tanen hōkei) are part of a ken kei [拳系] mostly reffered to within SK as technique group or family. You can read about the characteristics of each group in the SK Tokuhon.

And just as David said mostly we use their individual name, but sometimes they are also reffered to as the ken kei name and the order that hōkei has in its ken kei. Common example is tsubame gaeshi, and chidori gaeshi, which quite often also are reffered to as byakuren ken dai ikkei, and byakuren ken dai nikei.
But it is just different names of the same thing.



I don't know if it helps the discussion, but the 'kei' on the end of ikkei, nikei etc, means something like "form" or "shape" (can be read 'kata' also), just the same as 'hokei'. Maybe that helps to understand how the kei comes to be on the end of the numbered patterns.

I think you actually confused the discussion David. ;)
You normally have all details correct, but I see from the time stamp on your post that you made it late, so you are excused. :)

Actually hōkei is written 法形, and the last character can be also be read as kata (as well as kei and katachi). This character means form, shape.
The kei [系] in dai ikkei [第一系] and dai nikei [第二系], (which also is the same kei as in ken kei [拳系]) means group, system or lineage.

From a dictionary:
系 [けい] system, lineage, group


I hope this helps.

/Anders

[David Dunn]

I think you actually confused the discussion David. ;)
You normally have all details correct, but I see from the time stamp on your post that you made it late, so you are excused. :)

Actually hōkei is written 法形, and the last character can be also be read as kata (as well as kei and katachi). This character means form, shape.
The kei [系] in dai ikkei [第一系] and dai nikei [第二系], (which also is the same kei as in ken kei [拳系]) means group, system or lineage.

From a dictionary:
系 [けい] system, lineage, group


I hope this helps.

/Anders

Oops. Thanks for the correction Anders. I have been misinformed and would have made the same mistake whatever the time of day :)

[Nina]

Thank you both for the explanations...:bow:



Common example is tsubame gaeshi, and chidori gaeshi, which quite often also are reffered to as byakuren ken dai ikkei, and byakuren ken dai nikei.
But it is just different names of the same thing.

Now I am a little confused, since byakuren ken dai ikkei is at least according to the tokuhon a tanen hōkei that is not only tsubame gaeshi, but includes zen tenkan etc...? Sorry, hope you know what I mean...

[Anders Pettersson]

Now I am a little confused, since byakuren ken dai ikkei is at least according to the tokuhon a tanen hōkei that is not only tsubame gaeshi, but includes zen tenkan etc...? Sorry, hope you know what I mean...
Well the first hōkei in the byakuren ken group is tsubame gaeshi, hence it can also be called bykaurenken dai ikkei. This hōkei is also practised as a fixed single form.
Kote nuki is the first hōkei in the group ryūōken, and therefor we have a single form called ryūōken dai ikkei, it also has a set renhankō.

You could think of these single forms, such as byakurenken dai ikkei and ryūōken dai ikkei as a pre-set way to do the hōkei in single form with a fixed ren han kō.

I hope this made it a little clearer?

/Anders

[Nina]

I don`t really understand the relationship between the families and single forms, because not every family has it`s solo form? How much do exist?


You could think of these single forms, such as byakurenken dai ikkei and ryūōken dai ikkei as a pre-set way to do the hōkei in single form with a fixed ren han kō.

I heard that before, e.g. that ryo ken dai ikkei is the "perfect" form of kote nuki, but nearly every sensei explains kote nuki with going in the t-form, that we don`t have in the tanen kihon hokei. And when doing tsubame gaeshi , why should your ren han ko be the going back with shita uke and keri age?

[Anders Pettersson]

I don`t really understand the relationship between the families and single forms, because not every family has it`s solo form? How much do exist?

Don't think to much about it, not everything is logical. ;)

The official single forms in Shorinji Kempo are:
Tenchi ken dai ikkei - dai rokkei (1-6)
Ryuo ken dai ikkei
Giwa ken dai ikkei, dai nikei (1, 2)
Byakuren ken dai ikkei
Ko manji ken (manji no kata)
Ryu no kata (gyaku gote tanen)

Ryuoken, Byakurenken and Ryu no kata are conencted to a certain hokei in a kenkei. The other are not.
Tenchiken 1 & 2, giwaken 1 also have pair forms.

Then one can see some other single forms sometime. Ryuoken dai san used to be practised sometimes many years ago, I haven't seen anyone else do it for ages, but occcaisonally do it in my dojo.
Dokko ken is also something that one can see/hear about sometime. But since these are not explained as single forms in the Kyohan (at least I haven't seen it) or included in the kamokuhyo they are rarely done.



I heard that before, e.g. that ryo ken dai ikkei is the "perfect" form of kote nuki, but nearly every sensei explains kote nuki with going in the t-form, that we don`t have in the tanen kihon hokei. And when doing tsubame gaeshi , why should your ren han ko be the going back with shita uke and keri age?

I'm not sure I follow what you mean, never heard about the "t-form" (maybe understand when I see it, but never heard it explained that way).

As for going back in byakuren ken, just see it as another way to practice.

/Anders

[Nina]

Hi,
may I ask what Ryuoken dai san is, the tanen hōkei of maki nuki?
With the t-form I meant, that you put your rear foot, when doing kagite shuho a littel to the side...Maybe more confusing..

[Anders Pettersson]

may I ask what Ryuoken dai san is, the tanen hōkei of maki nuki?
The third hokei in the ryouken group (ryuoken dai san) is ryote yori nuki.


With the t-form I meant, that you put your rear foot, when doing kagite shuho a littel to the side...Maybe more confusing..

Ok, I maybe understand what you mean. :)

/Anders

[Nina]

Thank you.

The third hokei in the ryouken group (ryuoken dai san) is ryote yori nuki.

So the ryote techniques are own hokei?
(sorry...)

[Anders Pettersson]

So the ryote techniques are own hokei?
(sorry...)

Sometimes, and sometimes tehy are not. :)

/Anders

[Nina]

:eek: Complicated...

[Nina]

Ups........