Video: Baguazhang (Eight Trigrams Palm) Form and Applications

[sukashi]

Master Wei-Chung Lin, a disciple of the Yizungyue School and the Chief Instructor of the Chinese Taoist Martial Arts Association in Skokie Illinois, demonstrates a Baguazhang form and its applications.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAq1WA_RCiI

[Jeff C.]

I liked that.

Jeff Cook

[Musubi Dojo]

I quite liked the arm bar takedown in the applications part.

Are there a lot of different forms in Baguazahang?

[Jeff Burger]

I like the idea of the matted wall for pushing.

Im not a Bagua practioner but the footwork looked wrong. Again I dont do Bagua just going by what I have seen.

From the music I was almost waiting for him to bust into the Lindy Hop.

I was hoping to see some Bagua vs stick / bat. Some of the applications I have seen in the past Bagua really shines against that weapon.

[sukashi]

Are there a lot of different forms in Baguazahang?

Since the founder of Baguazhang taught his students (many of them were experts in other styles) based on what they had, everyone in the 2nd generation had their own (and different) Bagua forms. This is quite interesting compared with the evolution of other styles of martial arts.

[Sochin]

I agree with sukashi, every one got something different. No one was accepted as a student unless they already had mastered a fighting art. Then they were given the 'bagua add-ons" so to speak for thyem to add on if they liked.

The problem with that is that a hard style did not stop being a hard style when they did their bagua. Therefore not all bagua styles can be called intenal, but only those taught to internal stylists.

I have done years of external bagua and tai chi and I know this because I've finially found a teacher willing to teach this old karate-ka true internal style.

What I see here in this vid is very good external bagua and the apps use very good alignment of energy but nothing really internal. We do the same thing in our karate.

[D Dempsey]

That looked like a pretty good example of a chinese line of cheng style baguazhang. The big reasons it looks different from a lot of bagua is that cheng isn't really popular. The main styles are usually Gao and Yin and they're all very different from one another, with Chengs main influence being Shuaijiao.

Ted,
I not sure I completely agree with you about the whole internal/external concept. Following that reasoning there really wouldn't be any internal or external bagua because the concept of classifying martial arts into the two categories didn't come about to until the early 20th century and is mainly attributed to Sun Lutang.

[Dale Dugas]

The foot work is pretty much what you see in Cheng Style. I like his fa jing demos at the end of the clip and the big mat he sends his students flying into.

The footwork is the result of the Shifu internalizing his styles concepts and applying them through his body and moving. As long as its working for him when he is applying, it works and thats all you need. If it does not then you have to figure out why and make it work for you.

He has great whole body power. I would not want to be on the other end of him really twisting, pulling and hitting...

The whole internal/external thing gets out of hand most of the time and people get way too bogged down with trying to classify arts with the concepts. He has a great connection with the ground and its obvious from his apps. Internal does not mean soft and limp like overcooked pasta. It means you have to connect your Yi(intention) with what you are doing. He has that and them some.

Anyone else?

[Dale Dugas]

Forgot to add that the heel to toe form of stepping is called in many systems the Lion Step. This is much different than the mud walking or serpent slides through the grass step that many are aware of being in many bagua systems.

We have both and they have their purposes. We teach and use the Immortal Man Step which is our way of saying the Lion Step(heel to toe).

[Sochin]

Hi David,

do you know the rules for internal movement that Sun Lutang advocated?

I have rules for how to move and create power in karate and I have different rules or movement and creation of perceived power in Chen Style Practical Method and they are quite different.

I also did Yang for years with no rules and so we used karate rules to do our sets. In other words, we did the form like it was a karate kata done slow. It was so wrong...

The only use of the words internal and external is to access the correct set of rules.

[D Dempsey]

Hey Ted,
I have them somewhere in one of Sun Lutang's books, but I just moved so I'm not positive what they are off the top of my head. I've personally always had a preference for Tim Cartmell's material, as I since I felt it was better explained and less esoteric. Tim's stuff places more emphasis on structure, alignment, and moving your body as a whole.
The whole internal / external debate really seems kind of silly and a little to black and white then the reality that most martial arts fit somewhere in between the two.

[Sochin]

Yes it is silly on the whole but not if someone who knows karate and has never had a taiji lesson in his life but learns it from a video then teaches tai chi from karate principles.

If there is no difference, who is to call him on it and on what?

I'm not saying you guys but some of the people who say it is all semantics are the people who don't want their ignorance to be found out.

[Dale Dugas]

I get where you are coming from Sochin.

Way too many people talk way too much and do not get off their fat keisters and perform what they preach.

[sukashi]

We have both and they have their purposes.

The same in our school. The beginning Cheng style Baguazhang students are required to do mud-step walking (toe to heel). The advanced students, once they have acquired the skill the mud-stepping training method intends to teach, can continue to do mud-stepping or just do natural walking (heel to toe).

[Digi]

I found this link to another Baguazhang practitioner. Tell me what you think.
http://www.youtube.com/user/blacktaoist

[Sochin]

sukashi,

I had to do mud slide stepping ONLY for three months and after three years I was still sliding in the mud!

And one of the forms I practiced was the similar to the form in the link Digi posted! The same but different...Jiang Ronquiaou's right?

[TonyU]

I liked that.

Jeff Cook
Same here. That was pretty cool.