Sword and Shield Fighting

[tsafa]

Sword and Shield fighting if one of the oldest weapons forms. It is the base upon which armies were founded. In modern martial arts it seems to be the most neglected.

Using the shield and sword effectivly requires a lot of training. I have put up a website that covers some of the basics. You may view it here:

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/pell/index.htm

[De_Franza]

Can I use this to keep myself safe on the streets in a bad neighborhood? :D

I'm kidding, but your site looks cool! Thanks!

[Jay Bell]

I've always had issues with the SCA style of sword n' board. Using a rattan stick does not bring out the history and realism involved. What the SCA does is a style of stick fighting, not sword.

[tsafa]

Jay, my rattan sword weighs exactly 3 lbs and is balanced about 4 inches below the hilt. With the 1.5 lbs basket hilt it is balanced exactly like my Windlass Medieval Classic. I also use a shorter sword on occasion that is balanced to my Lionheart. Usually I do my drills with my rattan swords but occasionally I use one of my real swords on my pell. They handle the same. The techniques do work. There are various methods for adjusting the weight and balance of rattan swords.

We don't have much historical documentation on the specifics of sword and sheild fighting. It stands to reason that men of the 8th and 9th century had two arms, two legs and moved in a manor similar to the way we do. They wore mostly leather armor. If they were rich enough they wore mail armor and fought on horseback. If they used sword and shield on foot, it is likely they came to many of the same conclusions we have today about what works. If they did not use these methods, they surely would have liked to.

[tsafa]

damn, my edit got timmed out. That is a stupid feature of this board. I wanted to comment on certain things that may seem unhistoric like the safety restriction of not hitting below the knee and no grappling.

From the time of Ancient Greece, warrior wore greeves to protect the vulnerable lower leg. In the darkages if a warrior did not wear leather-greaves he had the option of a large kiteshield to protect his lower leg. Attacking a persons lowerleg also makes the attacker vulnerable since his head will come into his opponents range before he can get his leg. I am not saying that lowleg hits were never used in battle, but rather that sword and shield combat does not revolve around it. The best target area is the face. All darkage warriors wore openface helmets. They had to be able to see, so their face was always vulnerable.

On the issue of grappling, a skilled swordman will prefer to play a range game and not be manhandled in a grappling match. This is not to say that grappling skills should not be developed. Lets just say that grappling is a seperate subject, just like fighting from horseback is.

[Tony Dismukes]

I expect there are things the SCA style of fighting gets right and some things it gets wrong as a simulation of real broadsword fighting.

Some of the wrong things are fairly obvious as a result of the rules - limits on target areas, limits on grappling, the convention of fighting from the knees once a good shot is taken to the legs, etc. There are probably other flaws due to the difference between using a blade and a blunt instrument, but in the absence of experimental evidence it's hard to do more than speculate on what those might be.

Some things I suspect SCA fighters get right:
The techniques for effective use of a shield and ways of slipping strikes past a shield's defense.
The body mechanics to quickly and accurately deliver powerful strikes from all angles in combinations with a heavy weapon. The typical SCA rattan "sword" is much heavier than the rattan sticks most FMA practioners use or the bamboo shinai used in kendo. Using it effectively requires real skill.

Most interestingly, there is one aspect of medieval combat that I have never really seen addressed anywhere except in the SCA - fighting in formation. Fighting in a shield wall is almost completely different from fighting one-on-one. Footwork, available targets, defensive techniques - everything changes. Given that most battlefield combat of the pre-gunpowder era (in Europe or Asia) involved fighting in formation, it seems surprising that none of the surviving Asian battlefield arts seem to deal with that aspect much. (At least from the limited amount I've seen.) Perhaps some of the koryu practitioners on the board can address that issue?

[tsafa]

Tony, I aggree with most of what you said. Any parts I don't fully aggree with are really minor, debateable and not significant.

The one thing I would like to bring to your attention is the large variation in the swords that people use. Some people use 10 oz alluminum basket-hilts attached to short sticks so that the sword weighs about 2 lbs. Most people including myself use 3 lbs swords with a pob 4 inches down the grip. I have experimented with a short 3.5 lb sword that I created by screwing washers to the back end as a pommol. I have also experimented with a 4.5 lb sword using the same means and a longer blade. The sword types are really run the full spectrum between light short 22 inch gladius and 45 inch cleavers. In the end after much experimentation I have come to be most comfortable with a standard 3 lb 42 inch, norman style, type X. I have tried a 2.5 lb'er and found that people would not take my shots cause they were too light. Anything approching 3.5 required too much of a windup and telegraphed my intentions. 3 lbs works for me. At the moment both my 42 inch'er and 35 inch'er are exctly 3 lbs. The short sword has thicker rattan to make up the difference.

I should also point out that the hitting calibrations vary from one kingdom to another. In Florida they tend to wear less armor and have light calibrations. So in Florida they favor 2 lb to 2.5 lb swords and speed is everything. In my kingdom, East, we have one of the highest calibrations in the SCA. So people wear more armor and use heavier swords. Light shots are not accepted. We demand shots that would do dammage through leather armor.

The favored styles also vary from kingdom to kingdom. East Cost uses large heaters. West cost uses round shields, Nothern terretories favor middium size kites. Some places favor polearms, others bucklers, two-handed swords, two-weapon forms, and so on. You can fight with what ever you want. But it is best to fight with what ever the people around you use so you can learn from them.

[tsafa]

I have created and uploaded some video to You Tube illustrating some of the things I talke about on my webpage. I have also updated my webpage.

Here is a link to the You Tube vids:

This one is about using the point of balance on a sword:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5L4FdkLaTo

This one is about generating sword power:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLKuRmzoggY

This one is about using a heater shield:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41uLxwQj_EY

[dewey]

I'll take my Shinto Muso ryu Jodo anyday. It specializes in disarming swordsman.

[tsafa]

I uploaded some vids of me fighting to You Tube. I am the guy with the big shiny shield.

This one is shield vs shield:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMopZtqB7Ww

This one is Shield vs Two-sword:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R93izuW9f_E

This one is Shied vs Polearm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnezTM2UA_k

[Tony Dismukes]

For the benefit of those who have never attended an SCA event, here are some more YouTube links with clearer video and some more experienced fighters:

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToegwtZXuUY) is a portion of a documentary on the SCA with some fighting at 4:30 and again at 8:00 minutes in.

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFziYKjydrc&feature=related) is some tournament fighting.

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7BIjuAdZXU) and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-CpcwpI3gE&feature=related) are tastes of what the group battles are like.

As you might guess, being in the middle of one of those mass battles is a completely different experience from one-on-one fighting.

[CEB]

I'll take my Shinto Muso ryu Jodo anyday. It specializes in disarming swordsman.

It won't work against Moonwolf.

[Tony Dismukes]

It won't work against Moonwolf.

Assuming you're talking about Moonwulf Starkaadersson (http://www.legiodraconis.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=pnSections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=85&POSTNUKESID=3c61e080aa09413c7e930a2f9e5855d4), yeah, you're right. He's very skilled. I tried to find some footage of him fighting, but all I can find is his music.

[jjaje]

Are all the group battlers just mobs of people charging in? Do they do any formation fighting? That's something I'd like to see.

[CEB]

I guess Moonwolf is still around. I have lost tracked of the SCA. It's been a longtime. Most the best fighter from the middle kingdon seemed to have come out of Ohio (circa 1986 or so). John Proviance from Illinois was pretty good but the Ohio guys liked to fight. We liked to party feast and dance.

[CEB]

Are all the group battlers just mobs of people charging in? Do they do any formation fighting? That's something I'd like to see.

No that is pretty much it. Unless things have changed. It isn't so much about winning as it about having fun.

[Tony Dismukes]

Are all the group battlers just mobs of people charging in? Do they do any formation fighting? That's something I'd like to see.

Yeah, there's formation fighting, although it's hard to see in the clips I posted. However it's not drilled to anything like the level of precision that real world professionals would have had, so the formations often break apart under pressure or when moving fast. The goal is to keep the shield wall tight, so as to leave very few openings for an attack. Shield guys create a barrier in front, while fighers with polearms or spears strike from behind the shield wall.

There are some very skilled individual fighters in the SCA, but most folks only practice group tactics when a special event is coming up. Also, even if a local group practices formation fighting on a consistent basis, they're unlikely to have more than a small group (10 - 20 fighters). The big field battle at the Pennsic war might have over a thousand fighters from all over the country, most of whom do not train together on a regular basis. As a result, most units can manage to hold together only the most basic of formation tactics in the big battles.

[tsafa]

Tony is correct, we do use field tactics. Mostly shieldwalls and flanking manuvers. We practice in small units localy. When we go to battle we stay in those units. The unit movement are coordinated by the field commanders through unit commanders. Here is a small clip from the castle battle at this past years Pennsic which I fought at. This clip is at a door that has been breached and attackers are trying to get into.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15-f8kJH5gQ

At Pennsic we have five major battles, one each day. Castle, field, wall, bridge, and forest. This year about 12,000 people camped and about 2,000 fought on the field. Some battles included combat archers with blunts and ballistas. There are two types of battles. There are resurection battles that are timed (90 min). You die, you go to a resurection point and rejoin the battle. Those battles are fought to control key points. Which ever sides controls the most flagpoints at the end wins. This type of battle tends to be more defensive and formation and organization determin the outcome more then anything.

The other type of battle is with no resurections. You die, you dead. Those battles only last about 20 min. As soon as one side gains an advantage, they press until the other side is completly dead.

The Castle battle is hybrid of the two. Since you don't attack a castle unless you outnumber the defenders 3 to 1, attackers get 2 resurections. Defenders get no resurections. This maintains a historical ratio.

[Eye4NEye]

My bro goes to Pennsic every year. He fights a little, but is more into making armor, etc. Here is some of his recent handywork:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=73946

[tsafa]

That is amazing work.

[TonyU]

My bro goes to Pennsic every year. He fights a little, but is more into making armor, etc. Here is some of his recent handywork:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=73946
Wow! That is cool. Does he sell them? I would love to buy one.

[Eye4NEye]

Wow! That is cool. Does he sell them? I would love to buy one.

He hasn't yet. He mainly does it for fun and for SCA stuff. I think it's cathartic for him.

I'll ask him if he's interested though, Tony.

Get this, he's never had any formal training in metal work or anything, he just seems to have this innate ability to work with materials. Wood, leather, metal, you name it. He makes all his own holsters for guns, and made the sporran I wear with my dress kilt. He's made an entire suit of studded leather armor patterned off of an old suit found at an old English battle site. He's even done some steel pieces, but not a whole set.

Most of his tools he makes himself, too. He's going to teach me to do some leather work this weekend, so I'm excited about that.

[Tony Dismukes]

Warning - that page in the armorarchive forums is apparently been infected with some sort of virus. Be careful clicking on that.

[Eye4NEye]

Warning - that page in the armorarchive forums is apparently been infected with some sort of virus. Be careful clicking on that.

Hmmm...any idea what? I'm all over the page and none of my software has detected anything. Are you running IE, Firefox, or another?

[TonyU]

I'll ask him if he's interested though, Tony.


Cool. Thanks.

[Tony Dismukes]

Hmmm...any idea what? I'm all over the page and none of my software has detected anything. Are you running IE, Firefox, or another?


I'm running IE7 with Avast as my antivirus.

[dao]

Norton didn't pick it up

Very cool helmits

[Eye4NEye]

Norton didn't pick it up

Very cool helmits

It might be an ActiveX script that is bungling something and setting off Tony's Avast. I'm running Firefox with NoScript so I wouldn't be picking it up. I'm also running Symantec 10 ED and still I'm not picking it up. I've let the board admins know, just in case.

Thanks Tony.

I'll see if I can find some more pics of my brother's work and I'll just post them as pics so you guys won't have to risk clicking on links. I'll probably start another thread so I can stop hijacking this one! :o