View Full Version : Body Language
Do you take emphasis on learning more about people's body language and therefore having advantages of evaluating situations? Do you sometimes focus on trying to read people? Do you think you are able to treasure people's actions? Are there kinds of molds? or just prejudges?
Do you take emphasis on learning more about people's body language and therefore having advantages of evaluating situations? Do you sometimes focus on trying to read people? Do you think you are able to treasure people's actions? Are there kinds of molds? or just prejudges?
Do you mean it for normal life?
Do you mean it for normal life?
Yes. :::::
I think its more important to learn to read environments and groups, than to read individuals. You need to know who is around you, what they are up to, and if it is normal.
If you are in a crowd, it takes too long to evaluate each person. You need to watch the group, to identify who in the group, is looking for trouble. Then, just avoid those individuals. That way it does not matter if they are left handed or right handed, or more likely to grapple... You are not involved.
If you end up in a deserted alley, with a mugger, you should have noticed long ago, that the alley was deserted, like when you came across it. You should have been aware of what type of neighborhood you were in, the time of day... If you still thought it was worth the risk, you should have been more aware of your environment, so as not to let the bad guy sneak up. If he does sneak up on you, the best time to act is right now, immediately. There is no time to evaluate him.
I read body languages all the time. My life may depend on it.
RickMatz
11-19-2007, 20:29
I read body languages all the time. My life may depend on it.
I'm in sales, mine too. :-)
Musubi Dojo
11-20-2007, 08:19
how about putting together a list of common body language "give aways"
I've been told restlessness and touching the face indicate nervousness.
Next....
how about putting together a list of common body language "give aways"
I've been told restlessness and touching the face indicate nervousness.
Next....
A person armed (with a gun) will always touch the weapon.
elder999
11-20-2007, 12:39
how about putting together a list of common body language "give aways"
I've been told restlessness and touching the face indicate nervousness.
Next....
A person with a knife will often look away-especially behind-before pulling it out.....at any rate, if you're in that interview phase of a confrontation, and they look away, it's a real good idea to move.
how about putting together a list of common body language "give aways"
I've been told restlessness and touching the face indicate nervousness.
Next....
I've found German body language and American (at least Californian) to be very different. Germans are reserved but straightforward and direct, so their body language tends to be subtle but clear.
Americans (at least in CA) are not reserved, talk a lot and make a lot of noise, but it's hard to sift through the smokescreen of excess nonsense. There's a lot of stuff showing but sorting the misinformation is the name of the game.
Anyway, that's how I see it. It was hard to read the different cultures when I was working the door sometimes.
Musubi Dojo
11-20-2007, 14:10
Excellent!
I've been told you can tell if someone is lying by the way their eyes move when the think about the answer to a question.
I can never remember which direction means which though. Something about accessing the right vs left side of the brain. Anybody?
To address Erik and Chris about different cultures and the eyes, you need to have a baseline. In other words as to Chris is saying to need to know when the person is telling the truth then gauge if their lying. This come from Interview and Interrogation techniques. Kinda of hard to do if you're only seeing or meeting the person for the first time. With practice though you can pick up the cues.
Also with different cultures they may react different because of their background. For example (and I'm generalizing here) an American will look an LEO (or an authoritative figure) in the eyes and may look down or away when lying. In most Spanish culture they fear the police or out of respect to authority so will they look down.
elder999
11-20-2007, 14:46
Excellent!
I've been told you can tell if someone is lying by the way their eyes move when the think about the answer to a question.
I can never remember which direction means which though. Something about accessing the right vs left side of the brain. Anybody?
I think some of that stuff comes from NLP (neural linguistic programming) which Darren Laur is pretty big on.....though I do think you can lie from either side of your brain...or both!:laugh:
Also, don't assume there's only one threat.
Most of the crimes here are perpetrated by groups of at least 3 people. The "lead" commits the actual crime (picking a pocket or snatching a bag) and when the victim or any good samaritan chases after, the "backups" ambush him and either knife him, shoot him, or (if he's lucky) knock him down.
Musubi Dojo
11-20-2007, 16:30
though I do think you can lie from either side of your brain...or both!:laugh:
So that's a myth then? I was told that you used one side (left?) to access memory and the the other to make something up.
I'm sure it's lot more complicated than that, but thats Cole's Notes version.
Jay Bell
11-20-2007, 16:31
So that's a myth then? I was told that you used one side (left?) to access memory and the the other to make something up.
I'm sure it's lot more complicated than that, but thats Cole's Notes version.
I've read little "tricks" about eye movement lying, but have never seen anything to indicate that they were accurate.
Musubi Dojo
11-20-2007, 16:34
I've read little "tricks" about eye movement lying, but have never seen anything to indicate that they were accurate.
Likewise, I've never seen anything of a scientific nature.
I love it when you can play myth buster with this stuff on the board.
Jay Bell
11-20-2007, 16:36
In most Spanish culture they fear the police or out of respect to authority so will they look down.
*nod* In Japanese culture, it's very strange for people to make eye contact.
I own an Abstracting Firm. All of my clients are Attorneys, and they wrote the book on body language.
I usually have to look much deeper to judge a clients worth. Yes, it is important for me to know if a client is a worthless pig who will slit my throat, or someone worth contracting with. Usually I am the one to throw the baited me-isms. Intentionally insecure or overly confident body language, gripping my pen for dear life, slumping in my chair, etc. just to see where they will go. Sometimes I use laymens language, sometimes I am straight up and up. Much depends on the individuals or company I am interviewing.
My all time best is refusing to speak to them altogether, and speaking to their administrative assistants instead. First, I learn more. Second, if there are power issues you better believe they will come out in less than a micro second. :up: Prior to any interview, I usually do my homework.
Musubi Dojo
11-20-2007, 22:08
But it looked interesting...
http://changingminds.org/techniques/body/body_language.htm
Cliff Hargrave
11-20-2007, 22:21
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesics
I went to school on this several years ago. The instructor said he attended the school with a fellow officer who got divorced shortly after. Seems he caught his wife in several lies. :wink2:
Cdnronin
11-21-2007, 11:46
[QUOTE=Musubi Dojo]how about putting together a list of common body language "give aways"
QUOTE]
Chris, we'll cover some of this in January.
Musubi Dojo
11-21-2007, 14:15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesics
I went to school on this several years ago. The instructor said he attended the school with a fellow officer who got divorced shortly after. Seems he caught his wife in several lies. :wink2:
That's pretty funny and sad.....
Chris, we'll cover some of this in January.
Sounds good. Will I get stabbed when I stand there oblivious? :D
Jay Bell
11-21-2007, 14:17
Will I get stabbed when I stand there oblivious? :D
Nope. Just like in the Tim Larkin work, the knife moves around you when you stand still.
Cdnronin
11-21-2007, 16:06
Nope. Just like in the Tim Larkin work, the knife moves around you when you stand still.
I haven't reached that level of mastery yet. The blade still has to be inserted manually.:cool:
how about putting together a list of common body language "give aways"
Big pupils: fight or flight
Small pupils: rest and digest
After lying, adults often touch their chin and children their mouth.
In how far do you look at people's clothes when to try to read them?
In how far do you look at people's clothes when to try to read them?
Huh? I don't understand the question. I don't have X-ray vision. I can only see the surface.
One of the things you need to look at is if the clothing is appropriate for the climate.
Guy walks into a store and has a parka on when it's mild out may be an indicator.
In how far do you look at people's clothes when to try to read them?
If she has a nice figure I try to look closely and deeply.:wink2:
Musubi Dojo
11-29-2007, 20:25
If she has a nice figure I try to look closely and deeply.:wink2:
ehehehehehe
Nadine are you taking about clothes as an indication of someone's social status and draw a conclusion as to whether someone is likely to commit violence?
Nadine are you taking about clothes as an indication of someone's social status and draw a conclusion as to whether someone is likely to commit violence?
Gawed, I hope not.
Of course I look on people's cloth to maybe better value them. My main focus is on shoes.
Of course I look on people's cloth to maybe better value them. My main focus is on shoes.
Do you. So if they wear baggie clothes are they gang bangers, but if they wear a suit they're ok? Is that what you're trying to say?
If so, again I hope not.
Of course I look on people's cloth to maybe better value them. My main focus is on shoes.
Do you. So if they wear baggie clothes are they gang bangers, but if they wear a suit they're ok? Is that what you're trying to say?
If so, again I hope not. That is most insulting you have said to date. I really hope I misunderstood you.
You're probably the type that takes her purse off the shopping cart and holds it closely to you when you see me walking down the aisle.
I'll give the benefit of the doubt that maybe your language is keeping you from communicating your thoughts properly.
In her defense, Germany does have "gangs" of sorts that get all dressed up, almost as if in uniform, and go looking for trouble. They get dressed up specifically to meet up and go out together. I haven't quite seen the same thing here - just a different thing.
Skinheads, Neo-Nazis, and (this is really strange) Hepcats, who dress up like in Grease with big leather jackets and go causing mayhem are what I've noticed. The really strange part is that the Hepcats often wear Confederate flags on their jackets.
First time I ran into some of them I just started cracking up, laughing my ### off at their little costumes. My partner was spooked but somehow they liked me (???) and turned friendly.
The odd thing is that once we developed some chemistry, they went to another bar, which was another surprise. Their body (and other social) language seemed to indicate we had hit it off and therefore they would come on in and have a nice time at my pub. What it really seemed to mean was that they didn't want to fight me (probably out of friendliness, certainly not out of fear of me :laugh:) so they took their trouble elsewhere.
Anyway, I would take Nadine's statement the same way you did from reading it, Tony, but I think she meant more what I was describing. That's my hunch, anyway.
Hepcats... what a bunch of cheese-dicks....
Do you. So if they wear baggie clothes are they gang bangers, but if they wear a suit they're ok? Is that what you're trying to say?
If so, again I hope not.
I notice clothing. I think in the corporate world clothing speaks volumes about a person.
Perhaps you are looking at this issue from a different angle.
No it is not a girl thing either. The rules for proper attire apply to men and women equally.
I notice clothing. I think in the corporate world clothing speaks volumes about a person.
In the work place it's one thing, in everyday life it's another.
Musubi Dojo
12-02-2007, 18:26
if I head to a client meeting in a suit everyone I meet smiles and nods their heads. Merchants all call me "sir"
If I'm out on the weekend in old army pants and hooded sweater people look the other way or cross the road when I come by. Merchants are either uneasy or say "what'da want?"
Appearance is huge, not counting race or color.
Another example, I went to help a friend purchase some appliances. He's of East Indian decent with darker skin. I was coming from work and wearing a tie, he had been doing some yard and wearing jeans and a lumber jacket. The sales guy just wouldn't talk to my buddy (WHO WAS TRYING TO BUY THE APPLIANCES). Tried to sell me the whole time.
My buddy is an investment banker who makes a lot more money every year than I could get for my house. We walked away laughing.
My 2 cents.
In the work place it's one thing, in everyday life it's another.
:thumbup1:
Although as Chris pointed out, it spills over to everyday life.
How about someone sprinting down the road wearing a parka, work boots and jeans vs. BodyArmour and tennies? We generally assume the latter is excercising, we generally wonder about the former. :confused:
I think no matter how you look at it, people make snap judgments based on someone's attire.
I think no matter how you look at it, people make snap judgments based on someone's attire.
That's my point, we shouldn't. You have to look at all the indicators, just not clothing alone.
That's my point, we shouldn't. You have to look at all the indicators, just not clothing alone.
Good point and I would imagine in your line of work, a deeper look into an individual is critical.
That is most insulting you have said to date. I really hope I misunderstood you.
Tony, I really don't want to know what you are trying to assume!
As Eliz said:
Perhaps you are looking at this issue from a different angle.
Nadine are you taking about clothes as an indication of someone's social status and draw a conclusion as to whether someone is likely to commit violence?
Has nothing to do with social status, their are just maybe sometimes indications that some people may be part of a special circle of persons, of course you can't generalize it but maybe you can focus more on there behaviour when you have some indications.
You have to look at all the indicators, just not clothing alone.Never said anything different, it's just one little part of the whole to know wether I keep someone more under the watch, at least for me.
Musubi Dojo
12-04-2007, 15:29
The situation Erik described made your question clearer to me. ;)
If you see someone obviously identifying themselves as a bad guy with clothing, like bikers do in my neck of the woods (wearing colors), it's just smart to avoid them.
Tony you're thinking more like racial profiling or just plain racism?
Clothing sets a tone no matter what color a person's skin is but it makes sense that it's just part of an overall checklist.
I think what Nadine means is less about $$$ (or Euros...) being conveyed by the clothing and more about attitude. Lots of pseudo-rich looking thugs who get dressed up and cause problems (reminds me of Scarface, somehow, or the guys in Clockwork Orange), and also people who just don't care so they look like slobs.
It's a statement either way. If you're in the middle, then you don't stand out as much.
The US is a little more casual, a little more flexible, than Germany with the clothing, somehow. Hard to explain but I think I understand both what Tony and Nadine are saying, having seen both.
I still crack up thinking of those morons dressed in their leather jackets, big lion's mane of hair greased back, confederate flag, never been to the US, don't speak English, and I keep expecting them to start singing "Go greased lightning...!" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Musubi Dojo
12-04-2007, 16:10
I still crack up thinking of those morons dressed in their leather jackets, big lion's mane of hair greased back, confederate flag, never been to the US, don't speak English, and I keep expecting them to start singing "Go greased lightning...!" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
You've gotta find us pictures of that..........:D
You've gotta find us pictures of that..........:D
Not a good example but here's what I've found: http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/3448/dscf1387bfs4.jpg
They look just as goofy walking down the street in Europe as they would in California (and believe me, we have goofy here!)
The guys I was thinking of had natural colored hair (not pink), combed it backwards compulsively, greasy, white undershirts with cigarette packs rolled up in the sleeve (showing off what muscle they may or may not have), and then brown suede, kinda fuzzy, leather jackets, not black. But that may just be the local nutbars around where I worked.
Oh, and confederate flags.
Really, really strange creatures. I swear, I thought I was in the Twilight Zone.
Nadine - is this sort-of what you had in mind?
Side-note: worst part was that one of my buddies' brother used to be part of this gang/group. Nice enough guy, the brother. My buddy, though, over 2 meters tall, looks like Sammy Hagar, awesome athlete and usually remarkably gentle, like a guy with nothing to prove. Not someone I wanted to offend for a variety of reasons.
Used to bounce with him. He's a doctor in Graz now.
Biker and gangs like Erik stated are different. You are not basing you assumptions on clothing alone. You think you are, but you're not. In the case of OMG, there the bikes, their behavior, and then you may have the indicators, like a name, that tell you they are an OMG.
I'm talking about judging because of their clothing alone. Remember Ted Bundy wore suits.
Cdnronin
12-05-2007, 07:33
. Remember Ted Bundy wore suits.
One of the reason Ted bundy was so successful(if you can call it that) at what he did was his ability to blend in and appear as something he was not. He didn't give off warning signals, and so was able to gain trust from his victims. Luckily for us, most predators don't fit his extreme. An intelligent, ruthless predator who can mingle and walk among ordinary folks without drawing attention to himself is the stuff of nightmares. Although as a predator, it is a requirement to lull your victim in some fashion, most of them do give hints about their intentions. Sometimes the way they dress is part of the warning.
Musubi Dojo
12-05-2007, 08:51
Biker and gangs like Erik stated are different. You are not basing you assumptions on clothing alone. You think you are, but you're not. In the case of OMG, there the bikes, their behavior, and then you may have the indicators, like a name, that tell you they are an OMG.
I'm talking about judging because of their clothing alone. Remember Ted Bundy wore suits.
Fair enough. ;)
I think that clothes represent a lot, at least here. So Tony, you as a police officer, when do you stop a car? Because of the car? the people inside? I personally switch my clothes on certain occasions, in order to get no trouble. If I need to go out at night, I put on my so called "bomb", so people wouldn`t say anything against me.If I would wear a normal jacked this couls happen...
Tripitaka of AA
12-06-2007, 01:09
Hello, sorry I'm late.
Could I ask for some definitions before I get any more confused;
I put on my so called "bomb"
In the case of OMG
gang bangers
BodyArmour and tennies
an Abstracting Firm
In each of these examples, my ignorance of the intended meaning, is making it difficult to follow the intention of the poster.
Hello, sorry I'm late.
Could I ask for some definitions before I get any more confused;
BodyArmour and tennies
an Abstracting Firm[/I]
Body Armour is a brand name for sports apparel. Along the same lines as Under Armour. Tennies = Tennis Shoes/sports shoes.
Abstracting Firm - provides legal abstracts for Lawyers specializing predominately in Real Property/Estate law.
Don't know about the others. :confused: Although I was a little curious about the bomb jacket as well. :p
Dennis Monk
12-06-2007, 04:40
OMG= Outlaw Motorcycle Gang, such as the Hells Angels, Bandidos, Pagans, Mongols, Sons of Silence, etc...
gang bangers= Those who participate in gang warfare, or emulate those that do.
See also: thug, turd, and misunderstood urban youth for further explanations.
Tripitaka of AA
12-06-2007, 04:40
Thanks Eliz, when I see "abstract" I think of a Mondrian or a Picasso... guess I'mm going to call this the "learn something new every day" item.
Hello, sorry I'm late.
Could I ask for some definitions before I get any more confused;
[I]I put on my so called "bomb"
It`s a black jacket that is so fat, that I look like a `bomb`...
Tripitaka of AA
12-06-2007, 06:11
OK, now that is quite different from what i was thinking! I had images of a waistcoat packed with sticks of dynamite, a hachimaki and a scary smile.
Body Language includes clothing, I suppose. But while clothing is the most obvious and familiar indication of a person's "status", it is also the easiest thing to change, if one were looking to disguise the truth. Therefore, as we have seen earlier, it is perhaps the least reliable aspect of a persons behaviour if you are looking to assess them, for whatever purpose.
Body Language includes clothing, I suppose. But while clothing is the most obvious and familiar indication of a person's "status", it is also the easiest thing to change, if one were looking to disguise the truth. Therefore, as we have seen earlier, it is perhaps the least reliable aspect of a persons behaviour if you are looking to assess them, for whatever purpose.
I also would not use clothing to gauge a person status. Here in the US, kids and adult alike, wear what;s popular. Right now looking like a hip hop artist is popular, including the baggies pants.
My brother-in-law dresses this way on a daily basis, except when working. He has a Psychology degree and is a primary school teacher.
It appears though if Nina were to see him she would cross the street and avoid him.
Things must be different in Germany.
I'm done with this thread. It appears my point is not getting across.
Hard talking to people that never had others look down at them, or grab their purses when they see you coming, or grab the kids because they think you are of a lower social status.
Musubi Dojo
12-06-2007, 08:17
Hard talking to people that never had others look down at them, or grab their purses when they see you coming, or grab the kids because they think you are of a lower social status.
I think your point got across Tony, for me anyway.
I've had the above happen to me plenty of times. I thought one elderly lady was going to have a heart attack when she jumped off the side walk. Nothing I could say or do would calm her down.
I went into a Chinese dry goods store with a friend who's also big guy and the couple who owned had a panic attack. I tried to ask questions about tea and they kept creeping towards the back of the store while pointing out the video cameras. I gave up and left.
These examples were in broad daylight. When I go for a walk in the evening it can be worse. Not an everyday occurrence, but it's happened enougth to make me think "What the hell?"
Cheers
c
Tripitaka of AA
12-06-2007, 11:25
I see what you are driving at Tony. I didn't get it earlier.
I should explain though, that my use of "status" wasn't with regards to "social status" or position within the community. I was thinking of "Status Dormant", "Status Active", "Status Neutralised"... or some such turn of phrase. I expressed it badly.
Point taken about clothing not telling the whole story (and often being as misleading as a bad Used-Car Salesman). Fashions and time can turn things on their head. As an example;
In the 1960s a trend came about for young men to shave their heads (or have them trimmed to a very close crop), wearing blue jeans, Ben Sherman shirts Crombie overcoats and Doctor Marten boots. They listened to records imported from Jamaica, particularly Ska and Bluebeat forms of Reggae. These became known as "Skinheads".
In the 1980s, the same uniform and the same music, but this time they became associated with Far Right politics and racist groups like the British National Party and th national Front. Ironic.
In the 1990s and 2000s if you spot someone in this uniform he is probably more likely to be a homosexual man... with no particular connection to either reggae, racism or anything other than his partner.
Dennis, thanks for the OMG definition, I missed that earlier. I was still thinking Oh My God. BTW, I'm guessing th "outlaw" part is a self-styled romantic fiction isn't it? Are there really any groups that have been declared illegal?
I'm going to try to blend Tony's and Nadine's ideas together because I think they are actually talking about similar things.
The way I see it, part of the body language that is expressed through clothing has to do with how someone wears his/her clothes and how widely the outfit deviates from what is trendy (and trendy can include out-of-style leftover clothes that have simply not been thrown out - guys my age still wearing stuff from the '90s).
If they visibly deliberately deviate from the norm around where they are, so wearing baggy hip-hop clothes make make sense in one area at one time but there are subtilties within that culture that locals can see (and therefore better understand the body language) than people who are not used to the local culture (like me totally misreading those hepcat chumps.)
We have a lot of gazillionaires in Silicon Valley who wear flip flops, shorts/jeans, and overshirts. Can't tell if they're a construction contractor or a yuppie (except maybe by the open or closed shoes) so nobody notices this here and they are treated the same by salespeople, just taken as normal people wearing out-of-office clothes.
However, if they are somehow more deliberately fashionable, wearing pseudo-scummy clothing that is probably pretty pricey, they can be perceived quite differently, as 20- or 30-something without a good job and therefore less appealing to commissioned salespeople.
The difference is that they look like they are trying to dress up, not trying to dress down, and that can make a big impression.
The outfits get described the same in a post or in a photo but a local can discern a difference (somehow). I think this is what Nadine meant.
Anyway, it's mostly in how the clothing is worn and what is deliberately selected and that's where attire comes into sizing up someone's intentions (or mood, at least). That's how I see it, at least.
Did that make any sense at all? Sorry, I'm tired today....
It appears my point is not getting across.
Hard talking to people that never had others look down at them, or grab their purses when they see you coming, or grab the kids because they think you are of a lower social status.
I understand your point of view, Tony and so I would ask you not to believe that you know anything about my life.
I understand your point of view, Tony and so I would ask you not to believe that you know anything about my life.
I can only base my judgment by what I read here.
I can only base my judgment by what I read here.
I think that noone is free of prejudgements, I mean you learn by experience. I think that special groups wear special clothes, at least here in Germany. I never said that that special person behaves like this or that, but probably this person gets some kind of special attention, without recognizing that...I don`t have a problem to talk with people from every kind of `status`, I talk to people others wouldn`t even call them human. So of course everybody is diffrent, and it`s a great pleasure to enjoy life with everyone. I guess I am one of the persons, you wouldn`t let your children speak to, hey, if I come to the cash, they stop sayìng `hello`, instead they are happy if I just give money and piss off...
Tony, i understand where you are coming from and believe me, I often had to deal with this...but I think you are not trying to see other points of view?
To value people has nothing to do with treating people.
Sorry, didn' see, that Nina already posted...
Clothing is important and not to be disregarded as such. I think much depends on your walk of life.
I too dress down - but I know clothing and I know what "fits," so to speak.
David,
Real quick. Abstracting is a term that pre-dates copy machines. Most Abstractors were attorneys too. Retired, or just starting out, or moms who didn't want the hassles of 90+ hour work weeks. :D We provided long hand abstracts of legal documents. Of course the advent of imaging has changed the nature of our profession, but the gist is still the same. We are the qualified eyes of another professional.
OK, my age does NOT pre-date copy machines. ;) This was just the quick rundown. There are many other aspects that assure my survival.
Sorry, but I have to post this, fits perfectly on this thread: Nina and me went out to buy some stuff, and suddenly came into a left demo. We were totally dressed in black with hoods...we wanted to look what's going on...and were treated like punks...We met one cop,who we know from former times, we were in the same basketball team and he recognized us..I asked him wether we know from basketball and he tried to ignore me...after some time he asked,wether we don't play anymore and I told him that we don't have any time more,he looked at us from toe to head and said ok, you want to go on demos..
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.10 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.