Proper Kung Fu forms training.

[jmd161]

Okay guys and gals,

Lets be very honost here how many of you do proper forms training?

What do i mean by proper forms training?

I mean after you learn a new form and you have it down 100%.

How many of you work on applying the techniques in that form?

Or do you just go and try to learn the next form?

I ask this question because that used to be me i knew a 1000 forms ,but could'nt apply 1 technique from any of them.My sifu changed all that though and i'm forever in his debt.

jmd161:)

[Jeff Burger]

There are other reasons for forms besides the ones you have listed.

All the moves in Chinese forms may not be for fighting application.
The maybe for strength, flexibility, bablance, injury prevention, flavors of movement .

CMA has a yoga side to it that often the forms are the physical training.

Then you astetics added to forms just for show. You may even have a story telling form...monkey staff or Kwan Do for example.

Why do I do and teach forms....
#1 the yoga side
#2 competition for my students
#3 percision / refinement factor for students
#4 fun

Yes I teach applications of forms....but for forms sake not applications sake. it helps them to enjoy the form and get a better feel / visualization of what they are doing.

Forms is the fun / fitness/ sport aspect for me...how else can a 35 year old guy justify playing with sticks,spears,swords....


Jeff

[TenchuDude]

LoL, you can justify it by saying its fun. We train in forms for about half of class and then train in the applications of those moves for the second half, so we get a thorough understanding of what the forms can do martially.

[Jeff Burger]

Definatley fun....CMA are my sport and hobby. If soemone wants straight up fighting I wouldnt recommend CMA.
Im not saying CMA cant get you there.

Since I was a kid I have liked puzzles....I think part of my of my enjoyment with CMA is solving the puzzle.

Currently Id say CMA has lost alot of its worthy combativness...but I believe it was and some is still there.

The sport and fun are there too. Im probably never going to use a sword, rope, dart ,whip, kwan Do, spear........ in a fight or a jump slap kick or butterfly kick or what have you.
For me maybe its like martial arts meets snow / skateboarding.
Its fun I enjoy them...sure they are great for conditioning and flexibility and such, but it keeps things enjoyable.


Jeff

[TenchuDude]

I hear ya, weapons are fun and you probably won't use them in a fight. I feel sorry for the guy you would use em on cause it's probably not too good for his health. But Kung Fu is old-school so I am sure it was pretty normal to use those in a fight 200+ years ago. And I am glad that they still teach them too.

[jmd161]

Kung fu is very effective in combat those that think otherwise don't know kung fu.

I don't care if they're learning it for 30yrs or are teaching it for 50yrs.If they feel it won't work in combat then they don't know any kung fu.

I've used the basics in a fight so how could advanced techniques not work?

Too many people claim to know kung fu and all they know is forms.Forms are not the only thing kung fu consist of.If you train forms only for fun then that explains why your kung fu does'nt work in combat.

Do you think the game battleship is going to help you in an actual battle at sea?

I think alot of people are missing the point when it comes to kung fu.If you want to use your kung fu for tournaments that's fine i've used it for that myself.Don't expect tournament kung fu to win any fights for you though.Combat and fun are two different things they don't go together and you can't train one for the other.I train now for combat application not for tournament looks there's a big difference.

I think alot of people think by learning forms they're going to be able to fight by just knowing them and this is not the case.You can know a million forms.What good is those million forms if you can't apply one technique in combat from them?

Answer = 0

jmd161:)

[Rikamarudude]

We actually train in the moves and application of the techniques prior to the form that they are incorporated in, the form is more of a formality to demonstrate that at our current rank we can perform the last group of techniques associated with our rank.

[TenchuDude]

Wow, I didn't know you trianed like that. It makes sense though. Thats pretty cool.

[Jeff Burger]

Students often ask how a move in a form would be used in a fight only to find out they already know it.

One problem with forms is once you start down the road of forms for demonstration things change. Then it ends being the more visually pleasing moves or higher kicks or higher jumps.

Personally if Im going to train hitting air Id rather shadow box than do regulated forms.

Through the changes in our Karate system we went from having traditional looking katas and "fighting" katas.

For years I didnt do forms or teach them to my students and I think they were better fighters because of it.

Today we do forms because I beleive in the benefits of competition.
We dont keep alot of forms.
Karate student have 3 hand forms from white to black....thats it.
And the 3rd one is the 2nd one with 2 extra lines in it.
We have 1 bo, 1 sai, 1 tonfa, 1 kama, 1 single nunchaku and 1 double nunchaku.
I would like to find better looking sai and tonfa katas or moves to add to our katas....like I said I dont see much use for forms other than competition or demonstration.

For CMA in our school...
5 Stances Form (this is a baby form...10 moves do on both sides)
1 Chang Chuan Form
1 Nan Chuan Form
1 Mantis Form
2 Tai Chi Hand Forms
1 form for each of these weapons (staff, spear, straight sword, broadsword, broadsword and sheild, double broadsword, whip chain, rope dart, pudau, horse bench, 3 sectional staff, fan, Tai Chi straight sword, broadsword and whip chain.
Besides the 5 stances form CMA students can only learn 1 hand and 1 weapon per year.
I dont want them knowing a bunch of forms they are not good at.
It has worked well so far...some students do their form better than me, Im not too much into the high flying acrobatic stuff its only a part of what I do.
My young students who are too young to do hard sparring concentrate more on forms.

We do Karate, CMA and grappling at our school and each runs on as a seperate program.
Adults who dont compete get honorary rank via testing, those who do compete get rank via testing and competing out of their division. Youth rank is just that youth rank and they are required to compete.
We dont give rank for kickboxing but there are test for different levels (1,2,3 assistant instructor and instructor).
There is a bit of inter group ranking that has developed. Those who fight can wear the Muay Thai shorts, they will sew a star to their shorts for every fight they have. That started with another coach who is no longer with us (Kru Kwakilar) but I think if gives them a sense of rank.
We havent done point fighting in years...I simply dont like it. But we have had students ask for it so next month we are going to start a class for it.
If they want fighting Id much rather they grapple until old enough to to do hard sparring as opposed to learning tippy tap run away no power point fighting.
Im hoping not to sacrifice valid technique in our approach to point fighting.

Jeff

[TenchuDude]

I think its up to the teacher to tell his students that if you get into a fight, you don't whip out some form you learned. The forms are meant to display a string of techniques together. Now if you chop up a form technique by technique, you'll find that each move does have many martial applications. But its up to the teacher to point this out, in my opinion.

[kung-Fu/Tai-Chi]

Tenchu Dude: Try this one when you and a freind are training.

stand facing each other you pick a form and your friend picks a different form. (say dragon v.s. crane for argument sake)

bow and begin the form.
As your doing your form and your friend is doing there's you will begin to see how some of the moves can be used in a fluid situation.
You'll have a better understanding on how a short fist form can fight a long fist form or how two long fist forms would fight each other.

Soon you will start to see openings in your opponent that were not obvious before.

[butoryu]

Common Ritual Violence:
The early pioneers of the martial arts developed practical life-protection methods that were built on the knowledge they gained from on-going empirical experience. Through the many years of training and on-going personal research, I identified the Common Ritual Violence (CRV) attacks and patterns all too often thrust upon the human being, into base level means of attack upon a person and the means via which to deal with same. Some of the basic forms of Common Ritual Violence one may face are are:

1. Verbal attacks

2. Punching attacks (11 basic directions)

3. Kicking attacks (5 basic directions)

4. Elbow attacks

5. Knee attacks.

6. Grappling, seizing attacks

7. Joint-locks

8. Throws

9. Ground attacks

10. Head-butting

11. Biting and tearing

12. Armed attacks

Once one examines the basic 12 types of attacks and their variations (including angles and directions of attack), one can clearly devise a series of habitual and ultimately reflexive responses to such forms of common ritual violence and this is where forms and two man drills comes into focus.

Physical Attributes Within Forms
To understand the value of forms in both a holistic and life-protection sense one must come to see the inherent value within the individual biomechanics and principles of physics each form embraces. Forms teach, via their repetition and understanding, the strengths and weaknesses of the human body. Understanding this reveals the various methods and delivery systems held within each form. Forms teach one about the anatomical weaknesses of the human body, movement and structure as well as the strong points need for the delivery of an effective counter-attack:

Vital point location (The point to be struck or attacked)

Weapon for energy transfer (Striking tool, hand foot, knee, elbow, etc.)

Method of energy transfer (The energy intensity of the attack)

The angle of energy transfer (The angle and direction of the attack)

An Overview
The ritual tools through which these life-protection methods of forms mparted are:

1. Stances & Body Posture 2. Techniques of checking, trapping & Receiving 3. Punching
4. Kicking methods, 5. Open hand techniques (i.e. palm & finger strikes, seizing, striking, scratching, slapping, flicking, tearing, holding etc.) 6. Related body tools of striking (elbows, knees, shoulder & body bumping, head-butting & etc.)

The Defensive/Offensive Aspects
1. Counter attacks
2. Grappling,
3. Throws,
4. Take-downs,
5. Joints locks & twisting, breaking bones
6. Ground-work,
7. Strangulation (blood & air)
8. Striking basic vulnerable points (eyes, groin etc,
9. Attacking connective tissue (tendons, ligaments etc)
10. Arterial & vein trauma
11. Attacking, seizing & manipulating body cavity points,
12. Striking & Seizing nerves, nerve receptors etc

Ron

[butoryu]

Forms as Training Rituals:

Forms are the individual and personal enactment of its life-defence applications against Common Ritual Violence (CRV). Each form had within it's own unique physical mechanism for dealing with common ritual violence encountered in every day life. each form (Taolu or Kata) contained techniques with unique and poetic names such as Double Dragons Swim Out to Sea, Breaking Bamboo, Heaven Palm designed to embody a specific principle and physical response or training ritual to deal with common ritual violence. Forms that contained holistic principles also evolved to deal with the common ritual violence faced during the time of their creation and existence.

However, forms by themselves DO NOT teach life-protection! They must be melded with that of practical two person drills designed to explore and embody the lesson embodied within the forms themselves. This is a view which by and large flies in the face of the larger International Martial Arts community who maintain that forms are in fact fighting drills on their own. Forms also serve to train and develop what is commonly known as the "Sixth Sense", a type of personalized intuition and internal dialogue within. This type of sense is known as pre-cognitive intuition.

The characteristic of this style is that brute force and flexibility, power and subtle energy are contained within the forms . The movements of the forms smooth and moderate in motion. The correctness of the postures, techniques and firmness of waist and stance are emphasized. The use of the waist and stance are stressed because if these cannot be achieved, the full benefit of ‘flexibility’ cannot be exploited via the use of a strong yet moving foundation. This special energy radiates throughout the whole body.

In Paihequan Wuyangkuan, footwork and hand techniques are equally important. Equal time and effort in training by both aspects is given. The swiftness and mobility of footwork equally in advance or retreat, or stepping sideways is greatly explored. This is important because footwork is the means of evading and also attacking the opponent. The hand techniques, postures and footwork of this boxing form are in strict accordance with the theories of Chinese Gongfu being suited for personal life-protection (self-defense).

Special rules must be followed when practicing the forms: the tip of the tongue must curl up and touch the palate, the shoulders must be relaxed and rounded and the elbows brought in towards the body, the chest must not puff outwards and the abdomen must be withdrawn, the back must be straight and the backside must not protrude outwards but be tucked in or under.

As the mind controls the will and the will generates power, which improves and regulates the blood circulation, reflexive response will be more acute. Both the circulation and respiratory systems will be greatly strengthened. No other exercise is more effective and thorough than the forms for developing this.

The force or energy employed is unique. When attacking, the energy of strike travels in a straight line, in defending the force employed travels in an arc or circular movement. This is in strict accordance with the theories of Chinese pugilism.

The philosophy of pugilism is that the practitioner must first have a thorough understanding of the principles of defense and attack. To attack is to take the initiative with an aim to subdue the opponent before he could organize an effective defense. To achieve this, one must be swift, vigorous and accurate in his attacks. To be swift is to strike when the opponent is least prepared. To be vigorous is to strike at the opponent’s vulnerable points so that the opponent will not be able to retaliate after being struck by your blow. To be accurate is to hit the target intended. So the three elements mentioned above are most vital. As regards the problems of prowess and proficiency, it is a question of diligence in practice and training.

The majority of the hand patterns in Paihequan Wuyangkuan are executed with ‘Short Bridge’ and ‘Full-Bridge’ energy or half stretched forearms.

Two-Person Drills (ADEPT©):

Two Person Training Drills - ADEPT© (Advanced Defensive Environmental Protection Training) serve to recreate acts of common ritual violence in a controlled manner availing the participants the opportunity to explore the CRV concept learning for themselves how the principles of the forms may be utilised in personal life-protection. Such practice not only brings the forms to life in a true physical sense but also teaches the student how to discover for themselves individual and personal responses to acts of common ritual violence in a way that all such violent intrusions can be effectively dealt with. The Two Person ADEPT© Drills enable the practitioner to develop pre-cognitive intuition against attacks and the development of unconscious reflex (reaction time of 0.10 to 0.25 seconds) in order that the unconscious analysis of body language and response to take place.

The principle of ADEPT as applied to CRV (Common Ritual Violence) is to use a series of two person drills taken from the individual forms and train in them until they become reflexive making the lessons they impart natural.

ADEPT © Techniques, combinations, tactics, fighting concepts etc. will first be “Introduced” to the trainee. Secondly these will be “Isolated” and practised with co-operating partners in a controlled environment. Finally, and most importantly, these will be “Integrated” by training in an alive manner through fighting drills, partner routines and free sparring.

All PaihequannWuyangkuan fighting movements and techniques follow the universal idea of yin and yang (yum yerng). Soft (yau) and hard (kung) energy is used at all times, both in defending and attacking - always emerging like the symbol itself with everything in balance. It uses subtle force and turns it into explosive force. The Crane practitioner can move from soft to hard techniques, and hard to soft, never stopping the flow of energy. The opponents force can be redirected and used against himself, with minimum energy from the Crane practitioner.

Crane-Fist is primarily an internal kung fu system that uses four fighting ranges, kicking, punching, trapping and grappling. Crane-Fist usually prefers to use the hands because the techniques employed in CRV are delivered fast and usually at a close range. Punches, elbows and knees are delivered with explosive power (ging) from using proper breathing and correct body mechanics. This system also develops luk ging, six body parts working as one unit for maximum force.

The basic posture in Crane-Fist shows the characteristics of the five animals; leopard head for the vision, turtle back for power, monkey chest for the protection of the centerline and strike penetration, dragon waist for its flexibility, power and health. The name of the posture is hum hung bart boy - concave/swallow the chest and rounding of the back (not hunching). The movements follow the rising and falling, swallow and spitting of the body known as Fau Chum Tung Tou. These movements are the key to the power source, geng jak ging (shock power), in Paihequan.

Crane-Fist uses the centerline theory. The body is positioned in such a way as to protect all vital organs and vulnerable pressure points. The elbows are drawn in towards the centerline, and the stances are protective.

Conclusion:
Sadly and in spite of the hard efforts of many, Martial Arts today remains a highly politicized pursuit embodied by rampant power-broking and commercial pursuits beyond the necessary. Through all this shines a beacon of light that is the truth of the primary driving vehicle within many art, that of the forms. The lessons they contain cannot be ignored and stand as living testimonies to those who have gone before.


Ron

[Jeff Burger]

QUOTE
"The lessons they contain cannot be ignored and stand as living testimonies to those who have gone before."

As far as proof and living testimony...almost all the top notch fighters DO NOT DO FORMS

Jeff

[FistofLegend]

Proper Forms....
I must say, when I trained in wing chun the three years I did, my instructor didn't take us thru the forms at all. He taught application, philosopy, what works and what doesn't and why, etc.

though when I did shaolin (1year) we did forms I only learned two forms. 1 short one and part of a longer one. There we did practice the application of the techniques as well, as we were learning the form. But we also learned lots of applications outside of the forms which is where most of the applications I learned came from...from outside of the form.

Let me add, that although an instructor may not show you all the applications, you can always experiment on ways to use the techniques you have learned and come up with applications of your on. Which is what I did a lot:D

[kodanjaclay]

Ron,

As per forum rules you must sign each post with your real first and last name.

Thanks.

[KiniroKyoshi]

for the most part i only use form to warm up before i pratice, it helps lossen me up after streth out, and makes a good cool down as well. as for combat apps, i only have to say that its a good way to pratice the move, but in a real fight you have to adapt therefor any set combo most be adjusted as needed(lol when i was in my 2nd week of martial arts training, back when i was about 7, i tryed to fight off a guy useing a form, och, fall flat on my but when he blocked something, dont realy remeber what, that was a long time ago.)

-Bryan Owens

[mantisman]

I would say none of those reasons. We learn a bit of the form analyze and apply the tech. then move on to the next part of the form to learn. Sifu does it this way so that we do not end up praticing the form the wrong way. If we know how to apply a given tech. we have less chance of doing it wrong and needing correction.

[bloodymonkey117]

what? no option for "my forms teach me good techniques that my teacher explains upon each performance"? psh, your poll is seriously biased. :bandit:

[kwan kune]

Kung fu is very effective in combat those that think otherwise don't know kung fu.

I don't care if they're learning it for 30yrs or are teaching it for 50yrs.If they feel it won't work in combat then they don't know any kung fu.

I've used the basics in a fight so how could advanced techniques not work?

Too many people claim to know kung fu and all they know is forms.Forms are not the only thing kung fu consist of.If you train forms only for fun then that explains why your kung fu does'nt work in combat.

Do you think the game battleship is going to help you in an actual battle at sea?

I think alot of people are missing the point when it comes to kung fu.If you want to use your kung fu for tournaments that's fine i've used it for that myself.Don't expect tournament kung fu to win any fights for you though.Combat and fun are two different things they don't go together and you can't train one for the other.I train now for combat application not for tournament looks there's a big difference.

I think alot of people think by learning forms they're going to be able to fight by just knowing them and this is not the case.You can know a million forms.What good is those million forms if you can't apply one technique in combat from them?

Answer = 0

jmd161:)



that is why my favorite seminars are those devoted souly to application of a form i already know. 3 hours of pure apps. dont get much better

[TogaAssassin]

After learning any kind of form I normally extract the applicable motions from the underlying form and then keep the ones I like and discard the ones I don't feel like I can use. In this way I suppose I practice the extreme of applying the motions of a form. However as a result of this my forms as a whole generally don't look that fluid as there is a rigid line between motions that I like to use and practice diligently and those that just happen to be part of the form that I generally don't use. I guess this is the JKD artist in me really coming out though.

[Ozowen]

Most of the forms I have learned (no matter which tradition) I have learned the combat applications for, and find I continue to do so.
Forms are fun (most of em anyway)
They are good exercise.
They teach the art, by teaching its rhythm and its strategy and its techniques.
They hold too much in them to rush through (although I do that regularly)

As for Chinese Martial Arts not having combat applications...
huh?

I used to say that when my base arts were only Korean and Japanese. Then I began learning Taijiquan and got the snot knocked out of me!
As for arts like Choy Lee Fut, Wing Chun and Bak Hok Pai, ummm, if anyone thinks they have no combat applications then they have been asleep in class.

[Infrazael]

I haven't had anything useless taught to me. OK, mabye the beginning motion in Sup Gee, but serious, that's a BOW. It's supposed to look cool.

As for combat applications. . . you HAVE TO FIGURE THE STUFF OUT.

You're not gonna have to Poon Kiu Sau Choy all the time. Sometimes that Poon Kiu can easily be shifted into a Gwa-Kup Sau Choy instead.

Nobody is TELLING you to use an overextended Chop Choy. If you can't figure out the application, even after Sifu explains it to you, then there's something lacking in the brain.

[slamdunc]

We were trained in the application and basic techniques one year before we learned our first form. The form made a lot more sense to me, because I had actually used the techniques while sparring.
I have long since forgotten the complete form, but I still remember sections of it.

[Shrfu_Eric]

Q :I mean after you learn a new form and you have it down 100%.

- I rarely say I "know" a form ... cause then it must be flawless. I "know" the forms I re-teach ...as in curriculum and forms I am instructed to teach or teach in general.

Q :How many of you work on applying the techniques in that form?

- Every form taught has martial application to it. I teach that application when teaching the form. Helps with understanding what actually is being done. The student will perform the tech. but not expected to be part of the self defence curr.


Or do you just go and try to learn the next form?

When I'm ready to learn ... my teacher will dictate that as I dictate when another form will be taught to the student.
If you know your stuff well then you know it and deserve another one ... eventually ... just don't ask !!!

Everyone will find their own "way" of fighting ... I'm here to help them and give them the tools necessary so that they can have their own experience.


***note: I would never try purposely use any specific technique from a form ... just fight the way I do !!!
Be well.

Eric

[Kung Fu teacher]

Form have a collection of the movements of that style and technique. It is also an easy way to work on them together and remeber them. Every movement should have applications or for strength training or conditioning etc. When a form is perfected the student should be able to change the moves in the form and seemlessly flow from obe to the other. this is how it will be used in actual combat if they stay with the form, the moves should be solid and diverse enough to allow defence and offnce from any angle. For example if we are learning the tiger style and we work on a few forms, the tiger style will start to develope from an endless combination of movements. the forms that you start with can develope into hundreds of thousands of forms from the one from.

Bruce Downey

[Sean Reilly]

Greetings & Salutations

I got lucky..... no forms in the MA I train in now

Just regular body conditioning and the rest is free form

Suits me just fine:wink2:

[Kung Fu teacher]

I got lucky..... no forms in the MA I train in now

Just regular body conditioning and the rest is free form

Suits me just fine:wink2:

I don't think that is lucky. The human body has certain range of movements and in a well worked out form these movements are combined together almost mathematically in detail. the technical aspect of a good form can allow the martial artist to develope movement with seemless precision and for multiple attackers.

I think luck has nothing to do with it.

[Sean Reilly]

You are entitle to your opinion Kung Fu Teacher :bow: but I know who I am and everyday I find out more and more of what I am capable of

I have spent years training in MAs with forms or patterns and now know what works for me and the freedom of this freeform art suits me to the ground

I am now a more rounded martial artist and can really use the skills that I naturally have

I would never go back to an art using forms again

[hak3ka333]

To many forms ( sets ) spoil the soup.

No forms ( sets ), we have no soup.


Ralph