elder999
01-16-2008, 10:51
Did anybody had any kind of "near to death"-experiences already? Sometimes one can read or see reports about people who had experiences like this ... who has seen her/his life like a film and a "greeting" light and so on ... What do you think about things like that?
I spent most of my childhood quite aware how near death was, and sometimes closer to it than anyone would like …..as far as lights, tunnels and other “otherworldly” stuff, well, let’s just say that we’re in THIS world, dammit, and those other ones can certainly wait-if they exist…..experience taught me by the age of 12 that the best one can do is be aware of it, as Jeff pointed out, and not to think of it too much.
SO, I originally was gpomg tp resurrect this thread (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22673), where the above were posted, but recent events, and some other posts, like the ones in the Past Life Regressions (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21356) thread, lead to my starting this thread instead….
First off, as far as “past life regeressions” or “past life experiences” go-what possible difference can they make for most people? It’s interesting stuff, I’ll admit, and makes for an interesting experience for well adjusted individuals, but there are so few of those around. I’ll leave out my personal beliefs and experiences in this regard, but I don’t see that what happened in someone else’s life in a past age can mean very much, whatever one whishes to attribute knowledge or experience of them to. I’ve known of entire rooms of New Age nutcases, though, that were close to rioting over what they’d done to each other in a “past life-no, I’m not joking-and, considering the realities and difficulties of this world, I find it all rather ludicrous, and a bit pathetic-don’t you have enough problems here and now, that you have to go looking for more-or, worse yet, looking for solutions in a possibly non-existent past life of dubious relevance?
Secondly, we really have to view some of these things-especially the whole “after death” or “near death” thing in the context of a religious experience, albeit one with life threatening circumstances. The closest analogs I could find were circumstances where people had to resort to cannibalism to survive, like the survivors of that Andean plane crash back in 1972. Interestingly, when one finds people practicing cannibalism on a regular basis, it’s as part of some sort of religious ritual, or an event that has religious significance, and not because people make good barbecue-though I’m sure that we do.One also finds, throughout history, that people who have to resort to cannibalism also wound up attaching religious significance to the act-the people they were eating were their saviours, for example. What happened afterward, however, is equally interesting-some people go on to live the sort of lives one would expect of a quasi-religious conversion experience-they dedicated their lives to good, or good acts and good will towards their fellow man. Find and dandy. Some, however, went on to live a sort of party-hardy lifestyle that might be epitomized by the words “life is short, have fund while you can, live like you’ll die today.” Also fine and dandy-this isn’t about judging people, and I can easily see how one could reach either conclusion after a harrowing experience like that-if I survive this, I’m going to rededicate my life to good works, and see that their sacrifice was not in vain… or if I survive this, I’m going to party like there’s no tomorrow, really enjoy myself and have a good time-, and see to it that their sacrifice was not in vain…..in any case, one can see how the “religious experience” had different results for different people-each individual found different meaning in the same circumstances, and acted on that meaning differently.Which comes back to “what does it mean?” and my viewpoint that the best one can do is be aware of the “otherworldly”- or not- and try not to think of it too much. It’s also interesting to note that religions that recognize such phenomena as past life memories and near death experience usually take the viewpoint that most of these things are distractions not worthy of our time or attention.
I’m someone who walks with a foot in each world. In fact, that’s one of my Native names: walks in both worlds. It’s not easy being a scientist who has experience with such things, and it isn’t made any easier by people who insist that everything must have a scientific explanation, or those who also believe or have experience with the “otherworldly” and try to explain it scientifically, when they lack the scientific background to do so in any way, shape, form or fashion.
So, if I were to say (again) that I was very sick as child, and not expected to live very long, and that when I was 6 I had febrile seizures, with temperatures in excess of 106 degrees Fahrenheit, you might not be surprised to learn that I also had been resuscitated twice during that experience, and was “technically dead” (dead in 1966, anyway) for a total of something like 4 minutes.You might be surprised, though, if I were to tell you that during one of those cardiac excursions I visited a very bright place, and felt much, much better (that was a one hell of a night, and I felt like crap-especially after waking up in a tub of ice water!) . I was picked up by my grandfather-my father’s father, who’d been dead nearly a year-and he rubbed his whiskers across my cheek and made me laugh and giggle the way I always had. He smelled of pipe tobacco-just as he always had-and told me that I couldn’t stay-I had to go back because I had things to do. Then he put me down, and sent me on my way-straight back to the emergency room at Bellevue, where I scared the crap out of a doctor by talking to her-saying something smartass, actually. I ws supposed to have brain damage from having such high temperatures, and having been “dead,” you see.
Now, that’s all very interesting, but what does it mean? I can tell you that I experienced it, and that it seemed real to me. I can even tell you what it means to me, but what does it really matter, otherwise? I either visited the afterlife, or had a fever induced hallucination, or had a common near death experience induced by chemical reactions in my dying brain, or I made the whole thing up, or some other such explanation. While there might be some evidence from other cases to support any of those explanations, there is no proof of any of them. More importantly, while I’ve gone on to live a good life, and do lots of things, I can’t say that any of them were things I was meant to do, orn that they would have pleased my grandfather, or that they offer any significance whatsoever in regard to that particular experience. In any case, while I can tell you what I experienced, and what it measns to me, I can’t tell you for certain what it was. This happened, that happened, and this is how I feel about it, but as for “data?” I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know….
Consequently, I don’t think of it very much. It was an interesting moment, and I’ve mostly moved on, thank you…
I can also make mention of living in the House at Otowi Bridge (http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/nm/otowi.html), and tell you that during the time that I lived there, the house displayed all sorts of phenomena that would qualify it for some as quite haunted.: poltergeist activity, shadowy forms, odd noises and feelings, and a room that “grabbed” women-all witnessed by me and others, but it doesn’t really matter, as I have no videotape, no photographs, no audio tape, no measurements were taken, no data was compiled. We experienced what we experienced, and it all could be due to, in no particular order, underground springs, magnetism, river flow, highway traffic, practical jokers, telekinesis brought on by the onset of puberty, hallucinations, mass hysteria, indigestion or…ghosts…..or, I could have made it all up. I can tell you what I saw, and experienced, but I can’t tell you what it meant, or what really caused it-though I might have an idea, or some beliefs, or an opinion in that regard. In the end, this happened, that happened, and this is how I feel about it, but as for data? I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know..
Consequently, I don’t think of it very much, except to tell a story or two over cocktails or a campfire. They were interesting moments but I don’t live in that house any more (no one does, bwahahaha!) and I’ve moved on, thank you….
My holidays sucked. My sister had surgery the day before Thanksgiving, and was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. Being a nurse, and a somewhat anxious person, Karyl proclaimed that she had “less than six weeks to live,” despite her doctor’s assurances otherwise. She came home the Monday after Thanksgiving, and was going to rest up and start chemo. While disregarding her “six weeks” comments, the doctors also disregarded her saying that “ I can feel something growing in there…” right up to the point when her kidneys stopped working, and she went back into the hospital, because something was, indeed, “growing in there.” Anxiety or no, my sister conducted herself with a grace and humor I did not know she had, and was visited by a constant stream of genuinely saddened people who treated her as a sister. I did not know she was a person of that sort of quality, and I lack the words to express how deeply shamed I am that it took her being on her deathbed for me to find it out. At one point I told her she was going to “beat this thing,” or some rah-rah words of support, and she said “I know you’ll take care of my babies if I don’t.” Karyl was a single mom to three teenage boys, divorced from a husband no one has seen in years and who is just no damned good anyway….
At this point, as an aside to Chris McLean, I’ll say that I’m not a medical doctor, and there’s nothing left to do in this sort of situation but for me to get on my knees and ask the great “Santa Claus” in the sky for the unreasonable-the healing of my sister. There’s a great deal more to prayer, of course, but when things are unreasonable there’s nothing left to do but ask that most unreasonable of concepts-a beneficent and caring God who loves us all-for the unreasonable. That’s just my opinion, though, and what do I know?
Anyway, Karyl, the poor kid, couldn’t catch a break. Systems in her body kept failing, and she was in a coma by Dec. 30. My mom’s parish priest, Father Brian (who is a bit younger than I, and something of a tool, in my opinion) came to the hospital to perform last rites. There comes a point in the ceremony (with my mother, my other sister, some friends and me all around her bed) where the patient gets anointed with oil. Father Brian put some oil on his thumb, placed it on her forehead and said, “Karyl, I anoint you…” at which point her eyes snapped wide open. She looked right into Brian’ eyes, then around the room at each of us, then she just died-completely shut off, five weeks and four days after her diagnosis.40 years old.
Aside from her saying that she had “less than six weeks to live," and that proving to be true, and her saying that “there’s something growing in there,” and that also proving to be true, there’s the matter of her opening her eyes and looking at us from what was called a “deep coma.” The first two could be attributed by some to “Self fulfilling prophecy,” or “body awareness,” or any number of other “scientific explanations.”, and they might even be “true,” but what about those eyes opening? Father Brian, aside from having the crap scared out of him (I saw it, the ninny!) says that he saw “acceptance” in my sister’s eyes, while my mom is certain that it was the “moment the soul left her body.” Someone else will attribute it to that last synaptic activity, an electrical surge before dying, a response to simply being touched, or just nerves. I can tell you what I saw, what I experienced, and I might even tell you what I feel and believe about it, but I can’t tell you for certain what it was, and neither can anyone else. This happened, that happened, and this is how I feel about it, but as for data? I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know
Consequently, sooner or later I won’t think of it very much. It was an interesting-as in beautiful, sad, heartbreaking-moment, but I’ve got two teenage boys to raise, and a bunch of changes to make, so I’ll be moving on, thank you.
And, as part of that moving on, or as something of a clumsy segue to my conclusion, I’ll thank you in advance for your condolences-that’s not what I think this thread is about, it’s just that I ended the year with an interesting moment that was relatively relevant. And, for those who will wish to express some sort of congratulatory statement about raising my nephews, let me tell you that I feel neither “noble,” or “righteous,” or any kind of anything but scared ****less. “****less.” People used to call me that…..:laugh:
Seems to me that life is many, many things, but mostly can be viewed as a series of moments.: some interesting, some filled with beauty, or happiness, or difficulty, or sadness, and some that scare us shitless, and that part of what defines us-part of what allows me to look in the mirror and say “Today I’m who I want to be.”- is how, exactly we respond in those moments: the choices we make and the things that we do. The person I want to be, no matter how scared I am, or however many selfish-and legitimate!- reasons I have to not take on two angry, scared teenage boys, is the person who will raise those boys as he assured his sister he would…and so I shall.
It also seems to me that it would be much more interesting to discuss things we have in common, philosophically AND experientially-rather than seeking people to share things for which most have no reference, other than what they’ve read, or what science has convinced them of. We could discuss Nietzche’s influence on Shorinji kenpo, or the moral and philosophical implications of going armed, or how being able to “take on any man in the room” usually makes one a really nice guy, but, while we can certainly discuss the “otherworldly,” such discussion isn’t going to yield the best of fruit, because, when it comes to what I’ve experienced (as an example, it could be anyone else’s experience of the “otherworldly”) you can’t know, you can’t know, you can’t know…
I think we can view life from a myriad of perspectives-that life is training for the afterlife, or that life is short-something to be savored, and enjoyed, and lived in the moment. I think it’s all of those things, sometimes-you may die tomorrow or today and should live your life like it’s gonna happen, but-and I say this as someone whose life was supposed to be very, very short-life is long, and the decisions we make, the choices we make, the things we do-from the mundane and ludicrous (Mending Wall?Why couldn’t I remember the title of that poem??!) to the profound (My sister is so brave.. How did she get to be so brave??!) those decisions will stay with you for all your life-to your pride, amusement or shame-but whether it’s pride, amusement or shame it will be lifelong, so choose as well as you can.
So, at this point, I’ll be saying that I hope of all your holidays, Thanksgiving through New Year’s, were better than mine, and offer my very best wishes for the best of years-a series of moments filled with nothing but happiness and joy, surrounded by beauty and bounty. An unreasonable request, I know, but just what I’m praying for all of you-just as I have for every day of my short life, really, for all the good it has or hasn’t done….
I spent most of my childhood quite aware how near death was, and sometimes closer to it than anyone would like …..as far as lights, tunnels and other “otherworldly” stuff, well, let’s just say that we’re in THIS world, dammit, and those other ones can certainly wait-if they exist…..experience taught me by the age of 12 that the best one can do is be aware of it, as Jeff pointed out, and not to think of it too much.
SO, I originally was gpomg tp resurrect this thread (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22673), where the above were posted, but recent events, and some other posts, like the ones in the Past Life Regressions (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21356) thread, lead to my starting this thread instead….
First off, as far as “past life regeressions” or “past life experiences” go-what possible difference can they make for most people? It’s interesting stuff, I’ll admit, and makes for an interesting experience for well adjusted individuals, but there are so few of those around. I’ll leave out my personal beliefs and experiences in this regard, but I don’t see that what happened in someone else’s life in a past age can mean very much, whatever one whishes to attribute knowledge or experience of them to. I’ve known of entire rooms of New Age nutcases, though, that were close to rioting over what they’d done to each other in a “past life-no, I’m not joking-and, considering the realities and difficulties of this world, I find it all rather ludicrous, and a bit pathetic-don’t you have enough problems here and now, that you have to go looking for more-or, worse yet, looking for solutions in a possibly non-existent past life of dubious relevance?
Secondly, we really have to view some of these things-especially the whole “after death” or “near death” thing in the context of a religious experience, albeit one with life threatening circumstances. The closest analogs I could find were circumstances where people had to resort to cannibalism to survive, like the survivors of that Andean plane crash back in 1972. Interestingly, when one finds people practicing cannibalism on a regular basis, it’s as part of some sort of religious ritual, or an event that has religious significance, and not because people make good barbecue-though I’m sure that we do.One also finds, throughout history, that people who have to resort to cannibalism also wound up attaching religious significance to the act-the people they were eating were their saviours, for example. What happened afterward, however, is equally interesting-some people go on to live the sort of lives one would expect of a quasi-religious conversion experience-they dedicated their lives to good, or good acts and good will towards their fellow man. Find and dandy. Some, however, went on to live a sort of party-hardy lifestyle that might be epitomized by the words “life is short, have fund while you can, live like you’ll die today.” Also fine and dandy-this isn’t about judging people, and I can easily see how one could reach either conclusion after a harrowing experience like that-if I survive this, I’m going to rededicate my life to good works, and see that their sacrifice was not in vain… or if I survive this, I’m going to party like there’s no tomorrow, really enjoy myself and have a good time-, and see to it that their sacrifice was not in vain…..in any case, one can see how the “religious experience” had different results for different people-each individual found different meaning in the same circumstances, and acted on that meaning differently.Which comes back to “what does it mean?” and my viewpoint that the best one can do is be aware of the “otherworldly”- or not- and try not to think of it too much. It’s also interesting to note that religions that recognize such phenomena as past life memories and near death experience usually take the viewpoint that most of these things are distractions not worthy of our time or attention.
I’m someone who walks with a foot in each world. In fact, that’s one of my Native names: walks in both worlds. It’s not easy being a scientist who has experience with such things, and it isn’t made any easier by people who insist that everything must have a scientific explanation, or those who also believe or have experience with the “otherworldly” and try to explain it scientifically, when they lack the scientific background to do so in any way, shape, form or fashion.
So, if I were to say (again) that I was very sick as child, and not expected to live very long, and that when I was 6 I had febrile seizures, with temperatures in excess of 106 degrees Fahrenheit, you might not be surprised to learn that I also had been resuscitated twice during that experience, and was “technically dead” (dead in 1966, anyway) for a total of something like 4 minutes.You might be surprised, though, if I were to tell you that during one of those cardiac excursions I visited a very bright place, and felt much, much better (that was a one hell of a night, and I felt like crap-especially after waking up in a tub of ice water!) . I was picked up by my grandfather-my father’s father, who’d been dead nearly a year-and he rubbed his whiskers across my cheek and made me laugh and giggle the way I always had. He smelled of pipe tobacco-just as he always had-and told me that I couldn’t stay-I had to go back because I had things to do. Then he put me down, and sent me on my way-straight back to the emergency room at Bellevue, where I scared the crap out of a doctor by talking to her-saying something smartass, actually. I ws supposed to have brain damage from having such high temperatures, and having been “dead,” you see.
Now, that’s all very interesting, but what does it mean? I can tell you that I experienced it, and that it seemed real to me. I can even tell you what it means to me, but what does it really matter, otherwise? I either visited the afterlife, or had a fever induced hallucination, or had a common near death experience induced by chemical reactions in my dying brain, or I made the whole thing up, or some other such explanation. While there might be some evidence from other cases to support any of those explanations, there is no proof of any of them. More importantly, while I’ve gone on to live a good life, and do lots of things, I can’t say that any of them were things I was meant to do, orn that they would have pleased my grandfather, or that they offer any significance whatsoever in regard to that particular experience. In any case, while I can tell you what I experienced, and what it measns to me, I can’t tell you for certain what it was. This happened, that happened, and this is how I feel about it, but as for “data?” I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know….
Consequently, I don’t think of it very much. It was an interesting moment, and I’ve mostly moved on, thank you…
I can also make mention of living in the House at Otowi Bridge (http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/nm/otowi.html), and tell you that during the time that I lived there, the house displayed all sorts of phenomena that would qualify it for some as quite haunted.: poltergeist activity, shadowy forms, odd noises and feelings, and a room that “grabbed” women-all witnessed by me and others, but it doesn’t really matter, as I have no videotape, no photographs, no audio tape, no measurements were taken, no data was compiled. We experienced what we experienced, and it all could be due to, in no particular order, underground springs, magnetism, river flow, highway traffic, practical jokers, telekinesis brought on by the onset of puberty, hallucinations, mass hysteria, indigestion or…ghosts…..or, I could have made it all up. I can tell you what I saw, and experienced, but I can’t tell you what it meant, or what really caused it-though I might have an idea, or some beliefs, or an opinion in that regard. In the end, this happened, that happened, and this is how I feel about it, but as for data? I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know..
Consequently, I don’t think of it very much, except to tell a story or two over cocktails or a campfire. They were interesting moments but I don’t live in that house any more (no one does, bwahahaha!) and I’ve moved on, thank you….
My holidays sucked. My sister had surgery the day before Thanksgiving, and was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. Being a nurse, and a somewhat anxious person, Karyl proclaimed that she had “less than six weeks to live,” despite her doctor’s assurances otherwise. She came home the Monday after Thanksgiving, and was going to rest up and start chemo. While disregarding her “six weeks” comments, the doctors also disregarded her saying that “ I can feel something growing in there…” right up to the point when her kidneys stopped working, and she went back into the hospital, because something was, indeed, “growing in there.” Anxiety or no, my sister conducted herself with a grace and humor I did not know she had, and was visited by a constant stream of genuinely saddened people who treated her as a sister. I did not know she was a person of that sort of quality, and I lack the words to express how deeply shamed I am that it took her being on her deathbed for me to find it out. At one point I told her she was going to “beat this thing,” or some rah-rah words of support, and she said “I know you’ll take care of my babies if I don’t.” Karyl was a single mom to three teenage boys, divorced from a husband no one has seen in years and who is just no damned good anyway….
At this point, as an aside to Chris McLean, I’ll say that I’m not a medical doctor, and there’s nothing left to do in this sort of situation but for me to get on my knees and ask the great “Santa Claus” in the sky for the unreasonable-the healing of my sister. There’s a great deal more to prayer, of course, but when things are unreasonable there’s nothing left to do but ask that most unreasonable of concepts-a beneficent and caring God who loves us all-for the unreasonable. That’s just my opinion, though, and what do I know?
Anyway, Karyl, the poor kid, couldn’t catch a break. Systems in her body kept failing, and she was in a coma by Dec. 30. My mom’s parish priest, Father Brian (who is a bit younger than I, and something of a tool, in my opinion) came to the hospital to perform last rites. There comes a point in the ceremony (with my mother, my other sister, some friends and me all around her bed) where the patient gets anointed with oil. Father Brian put some oil on his thumb, placed it on her forehead and said, “Karyl, I anoint you…” at which point her eyes snapped wide open. She looked right into Brian’ eyes, then around the room at each of us, then she just died-completely shut off, five weeks and four days after her diagnosis.40 years old.
Aside from her saying that she had “less than six weeks to live," and that proving to be true, and her saying that “there’s something growing in there,” and that also proving to be true, there’s the matter of her opening her eyes and looking at us from what was called a “deep coma.” The first two could be attributed by some to “Self fulfilling prophecy,” or “body awareness,” or any number of other “scientific explanations.”, and they might even be “true,” but what about those eyes opening? Father Brian, aside from having the crap scared out of him (I saw it, the ninny!) says that he saw “acceptance” in my sister’s eyes, while my mom is certain that it was the “moment the soul left her body.” Someone else will attribute it to that last synaptic activity, an electrical surge before dying, a response to simply being touched, or just nerves. I can tell you what I saw, what I experienced, and I might even tell you what I feel and believe about it, but I can’t tell you for certain what it was, and neither can anyone else. This happened, that happened, and this is how I feel about it, but as for data? I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know
Consequently, sooner or later I won’t think of it very much. It was an interesting-as in beautiful, sad, heartbreaking-moment, but I’ve got two teenage boys to raise, and a bunch of changes to make, so I’ll be moving on, thank you.
And, as part of that moving on, or as something of a clumsy segue to my conclusion, I’ll thank you in advance for your condolences-that’s not what I think this thread is about, it’s just that I ended the year with an interesting moment that was relatively relevant. And, for those who will wish to express some sort of congratulatory statement about raising my nephews, let me tell you that I feel neither “noble,” or “righteous,” or any kind of anything but scared ****less. “****less.” People used to call me that…..:laugh:
Seems to me that life is many, many things, but mostly can be viewed as a series of moments.: some interesting, some filled with beauty, or happiness, or difficulty, or sadness, and some that scare us shitless, and that part of what defines us-part of what allows me to look in the mirror and say “Today I’m who I want to be.”- is how, exactly we respond in those moments: the choices we make and the things that we do. The person I want to be, no matter how scared I am, or however many selfish-and legitimate!- reasons I have to not take on two angry, scared teenage boys, is the person who will raise those boys as he assured his sister he would…and so I shall.
It also seems to me that it would be much more interesting to discuss things we have in common, philosophically AND experientially-rather than seeking people to share things for which most have no reference, other than what they’ve read, or what science has convinced them of. We could discuss Nietzche’s influence on Shorinji kenpo, or the moral and philosophical implications of going armed, or how being able to “take on any man in the room” usually makes one a really nice guy, but, while we can certainly discuss the “otherworldly,” such discussion isn’t going to yield the best of fruit, because, when it comes to what I’ve experienced (as an example, it could be anyone else’s experience of the “otherworldly”) you can’t know, you can’t know, you can’t know…
I think we can view life from a myriad of perspectives-that life is training for the afterlife, or that life is short-something to be savored, and enjoyed, and lived in the moment. I think it’s all of those things, sometimes-you may die tomorrow or today and should live your life like it’s gonna happen, but-and I say this as someone whose life was supposed to be very, very short-life is long, and the decisions we make, the choices we make, the things we do-from the mundane and ludicrous (Mending Wall?Why couldn’t I remember the title of that poem??!) to the profound (My sister is so brave.. How did she get to be so brave??!) those decisions will stay with you for all your life-to your pride, amusement or shame-but whether it’s pride, amusement or shame it will be lifelong, so choose as well as you can.
So, at this point, I’ll be saying that I hope of all your holidays, Thanksgiving through New Year’s, were better than mine, and offer my very best wishes for the best of years-a series of moments filled with nothing but happiness and joy, surrounded by beauty and bounty. An unreasonable request, I know, but just what I’m praying for all of you-just as I have for every day of my short life, really, for all the good it has or hasn’t done….