Historical Perspective on the Presas Brother's Arnis. [Archive]

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loki

01-06-2008, 23:59

Dan,

This is historical and good luck.

I'm curious about your description of the event as a showcase of the "Presas family art" as a whole unit with various branches. If I'm not mistaken, each of the brothers recieved very different types of instruction from uncommon instructors.

Can you clarify the link in the arts beyond the Presas name?

Hi All,

This coming February 9th, at my school in Gresham, Oregon, I am hosting the first annual Presas Brothers Arnis Seminar. This is going to be quite a historic event as GMs Remy, Ernesto and Roberto never taught together in the USA. The last time they actually taught as a unit was back in the Philippines pre-Manila so that must've been in the 1960s.

I am teaching the Modern Arnis segment. Mike Bowers (North America Chief Instructor) is teaching the Kombatan (Ernesto Presas) segment and Kurtis Goodwin (Chief Instructor Hinagaran United States) is teaching the Hinagaran Arnis de Mano (Roberto Presas) segment.

I am excited as hell about this seminar as the various aspects of the Presas family art, both the differences and similarities, will be presented for the first time ever under one roof. I have enclosed a jpeg of the flyer below. If you are in my area and can attend, do so. You will not be disappointed.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - I am taping this event for DVD release as well.

Dan Anderson

01-07-2008, 17:46

Dan Anderson

01-07-2008, 21:31

Here is the link for the upcoming seminar.
http://danandersonkarate.com/store/presas_bros_%20arnis_seminar.html#

Yours,
Dan Anderson

loki

01-08-2008, 00:11

So, in essence, what you are offering is how three brothers, who came from the same family stock, took a warrior tradition in individual directions.

Could you expand on the commom beginning from which the brothers and possibly explain what is unique about each of the separate entities?

I'm familiar with GM Remy Presas' Modern Arnis, and have an orientation on GM Ernesto Presas' "Kombatan", but honestly know very little about Roberto Presas' (GM?) Hinagaran Arnis.

How 'connected' are these systems? Do practitioners recieve cross ranking in them?

Hi Paul,

Yes, Presas Family art gives the idea that it is one art. I should have said something like Presas arts or some such. They had the same beginning and evolved into separate entities. The seminar is to show the differences and similarities of that which came from one origin.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

DragonMind

01-08-2008, 12:54

I may be wrong, but I think what Dan is talking about is both the art taught to each of the boys within the Presas family by their father and grandfather and the common roots all three had in the early days of Modern Arnis. Each of them did learn the Presas Family art as it was handed down in the Presas family. Both brothers were part of Remy's creation of Modern Arnis but then went on to study with other folks and eventually established their own systems within the Modern Arnis style - as the Presas family style eventually came to be known.

Dan Anderson

01-08-2008, 17:13

Hi All,

I got from two different sources (on two different coasts) that my flyer might be a hair misleading since I have photos of the Presas brothers, some people might think that the brothers are teaching the seminar. This is not my intention.

We three instructors, Mike Bowers, Kurtis Goodwin and myself, are representing the different arts taught by the Presas Brothers. Mike Bowers is highly ranked in Ernesto Presas' Kombatan and Kurtis Goodwin is highly ranked in Roberto Presas' Hinagaran Arnis de Mano.

I have upgraded the flyer to show this distinction.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dan Anderson

01-08-2008, 17:18

1. So, in essence, what you are offering is how three brothers, who came from the same family stock, took a warrior tradition in individual directions.

2. Could you expand on the commom beginning from which the brothers and possibly explain what is unique about each of the separate entities?

3. I'm familiar with GM Remy Presas' Modern Arnis, and have an orientation on GM Ernesto Presas' "Kombatan", but honestly know very little about Roberto Presas' (GM?) Hinagaran Arnis.

4. How 'connected' are these systems? Do practitioners recieve cross ranking in them?

Hi Paul,

1. Yes.
2. Jose Banco Presas and Leon Presas taught the bolo batallion in the PI during WWII. Jose taught Ernesto while Leon taught Remy. I believe Roberto learned either from them or his brothers.
3. Me neither. This is why I am excited about this seminar. You can bet that I will be a student when Kurtis runs his segment (Mike's for that matter).
4. Good question. I do not know of any cross ranking between them.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

loki

01-08-2008, 22:51

You are both correct and wrong in parts.

GM Remy Presas only gives credit to learning from his grandfather. His father was busy training and instructing during WWII. He never, during interviews or on either his own and/or Black Belt production videos credits his father with instruction. Also, GM Presas left home at or about 14 years old. Ernesto would have been about 9 years old and Roberto even younger.

The art of "Modern Arnis" was non-existent until GM Remy Presas was in his 20's and had trained in many different styles since leaving home six or more years prior. One of the very influencial (obvious in his early publications) arts being Balintawak w/ GM V. Bacon. What Ernesto and Roberto recieved would not have been referred to as "Modern Arnis" since they were instructed in more 'traditional' fashion by their father and grandfather.

GM Remy Presas' Modern Arnis is and should be recognized as a separate and unique art/system to Ernesto's Kombatan and/or Roberto's Hinagaran arts. To do anything else is a discredit to each of these Presas men as individuals.

Ernesto and Roberto both would have participated in school programs of "Modern Arnis" since their brother, Remy, was so successful in reinvigorating Phillipino interest in a Phillipino art. Remy's physical education program of "Modern Arnis" is still in place if I'm not mistaken. The only other PI art that I know of that has any 'national' distinction to speak of is Pekiti Tersia since it (in some version) is the official martial art of the Phillipino Marines.

My curiosity, since I won't be able to attend the event, is the distinctions between the arts that each of these brothers began. Admittedly, GM R. Presas has overshadowed his brothers within FMA systems because of his contribution to Phillipino cultural pride and recognition, but that accomplishment has, I think, created the misconception that "Modern Arnis" was a Presas family art and that Ernesto's and Roberto's systems are either subsets to Remy's OR that they have any tie to Modern Arnis systemically. They are their own entities to be studied as such.

I may be wrong, but I think what Dan is talking about is both the art taught to each of the boys within the Presas family by their father and grandfather and the common roots all three had in the early days of Modern Arnis. Each of them did learn the Presas Family art as it was handed down in the Presas family. Both brothers were part of Remy's creation of Modern Arnis but then went on to study with other folks and eventually established their own systems within the Modern Arnis style - as the Presas family style eventually came to be known.

loki

01-08-2008, 22:58

1. I think this is a perfect example of the practicallity, ingenuity, and adaptability that is signature to FMA vs. other Asian MA's. Same warrior heritage and family ties, but each brother creating something distinct to pass that warrior spirit on.

2. I doubt that either Ernesto or Roberto would have trained for any extensive time with Remy since he left home at 14. If I'm not mistaken, Remy's primary instruction was almost exclusively credited to his grandfather in his videos and articles/bio. That is not to discredit the influence of his father on him as a role model, simply a recognition that it takes a village to raise a child, so to speak, when Dad is serving his country. Later, I imagine, the boys father would have had more time to be influencial in direct instruction for both Ernesto and Roberto, IMO.

3. Is there any way to get them registered and chatting here? I'd be interested in clarification and new perspectives from them on this.

4. Cross ranking question would be addressed with #3 as well.

Please don't hesistate to contact me if you need help spreading the word on this.

Paul

Hi Paul,

1. Yes.
2. Jose Banco Presas and Leon Presas taught the bolo batallion in the PI during WWII. Jose taught Ernesto while Leon taught Remy. I believe Roberto learned either from them or his brothers.
3. Me neither. This is why I am excited about this seminar. You can bet that I will be a student when Kurtis runs his segment (Mike's for that matter).
4. Good question. I do not know of any cross ranking between them.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

loki

01-10-2008, 16:01

Way to go Dan. Honesty in advertising.

I had a run in years back when an instructor was trying to claim teaching credentials/experience that was not just inflated but flat out false. His response, sadly, was to say that if anyone asked him about it, he would explain it....

Stuff like this is why you present yourself as a stand up guy....

Hi All,

I got from two different sources (on two different coasts) that my flyer might be a hair misleading since I have photos of the Presas brothers, some people might think that the brothers are teaching the seminar. This is not my intention.

We three instructors, Mike Bowers, Kurtis Goodwin and myself, are representing the different arts taught by the Presas Brothers. Mike Bowers is highly ranked in Ernesto Presas' Kombatan and Kurtis Goodwin is highly ranked in Roberto Presas' Hinagaran Arnis de Mano.

I have upgraded the flyer to show this distinction.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

DragonMind

01-10-2008, 16:02

You are both correct and wrong in parts.

GM Remy Presas only gives credit to learning from his grandfather. His father was busy training and instructing during WWII. He never, during interviews or on either his own and/or Black Belt production videos credits his father with instruction. Also, GM Presas left home at or about 14 years old. Ernesto would have been about 9 years old and Roberto even younger.

The art of "Modern Arnis" was non-existent until GM Remy Presas was in his 20's and had trained in many different styles since leaving home six or more years prior. One of the very influencial (obvious in his early publications) arts being Balintawak w/ GM V. Bacon. What Ernesto and Roberto recieved would not have been referred to as "Modern Arnis" since they were instructed in more 'traditional' fashion by their father and grandfather.

GM Remy Presas' Modern Arnis is and should be recognized as a separate and unique art/system to Ernesto's Kombatan and/or Roberto's Hinagaran arts. To do anything else is a discredit to each of these Presas men as individuals.

Ernesto and Roberto both would have participated in school programs of "Modern Arnis" since their brother, Remy, was so successful in reinvigorating Phillipino interest in a Phillipino art. Remy's physical education program of "Modern Arnis" is still in place if I'm not mistaken. The only other PI art that I know of that has any 'national' distinction to speak of is Pekiti Tersia since it (in some version) is the official martial art of the Phillipino Marines.

My curiosity, since I won't be able to attend the event, is the distinctions between the arts that each of these brothers began. Admittedly, GM R. Presas has overshadowed his brothers within FMA systems because of his contribution to Phillipino cultural pride and recognition, but that accomplishment has, I think, created the misconception that "Modern Arnis" was a Presas family art and that Ernesto's and Roberto's systems are either subsets to Remy's OR that they have any tie to Modern Arnis systemically. They are their own entities to be studied as such.Some of your points don't jibe with other information that has been published regarding Roberto. See the article entitled Hidden but Not Lost at http://www.stickarts.com/articles.html

I have also heard from Dan and others about Ernesto and Remy's collaboration before Ernesto went on to form Kombaton.

loki

01-10-2008, 23:18

Some of your points don't jibe with other information that has been published regarding Roberto. See the article entitled Hidden but Not Lost at http://www.stickarts.com/articles.html

I have also heard from Dan and others about Ernesto and Remy's collaboration before Ernesto went on to form Kombaton.

Modern Arnis is a 'trademark' and legally recognized, in the Phillipines, to be owned by the Presas family. It has more to do with probate law in the Phillipines than any family style that the three brothers would have shared as a root system under the instruction of father or grandfather. Pallis Pallis and Crossada were the systemic names that GM Remy used.

If Ernesto and Roberto choose to market it as such, that is their choice. It isn't "wrong" because they own the name and should as family inheritors to Remy's work. That is where it belongs, IMO. But, it also isn't necessarily accurate, historically, if you consider that Remy was taught crossada and palis-palis by his grandfather Leon Presas, from the age of 6 through 14 years old. Then went over to the island of Cebu and began studying
Balintawak under Anulfo Mongcal, Timeteo Marranga and
GM Venancio Bacon, in that order, begining in 1952 through
1959. He was given permission to start his own system by
GM Bacon in 1959.

At that point in time, Ernesto would have been 14 years old.
Remy would have been 23 years old. Remy was in Cebu and Ernesto was still living with their parents in Negros.

When Remy first began teaching Modern Arnis, he was working
out of his own gym and at several colleges on Negros before he
moved to Manilla on Luzon Island. There he taught out of a gym
and at the National College of Physical Education in 1965. If Ernesto was training with Leon, the grand father, and Jose, I believe what he would have been studying was Pallis Pallis and Crossada styles. Ernesto would have 20 years old.

Both Ernesto and Roberto would have learned their art from their father,
Jose Banco Presas, but what they learned and teach is not the same art as their older brother, Remy. And, according to Remy's own statements, Modern Arnis was a system that he asked GM V. Bacon of Balintawak to start, not his father/grandfather.

And, since GM Remy Presas' system was incorporated into the national physical education program of the Phillipino public school system, both Ernesto and/or Roberto would probably have had some early exposure to Modern Arnis through that more so than direct contact with GM Remy.

Now, I am being a stickler for history on this one, I know. I am NOT saying either Ernesto or Roberto did not earn their own respect and rank through hard work and dedication. I am saying that the legal ownership of "Modern Arnis" name in the Phillipines as part of Gm Remy Presas' estate settlement is not the same as all three brothers training in the same martial system and eventually forming their own branches.

The hierarchy of system/style or style/system is a side issue, but as far as I have understood it, System is the major heading that outlines the totallity of material to be instructed, under which an individual would find their particular 'style' through regular practice.

Dan,
My intent is not to sour your announcement. As I said, I'm just a stickler for things like this. You, yourself, in an earler post stated that the three brothers systems should be identified as separate and not under one heading, so, in that, we seem to be in agreement.

I hope that rep's from the Kombatan and Hinagaran systems can join in to describe the nuances of their particular training. NOT in comparison to Modern Arnis, but on their own merits, as it should be. Any GM should be able to stand on his own merits, and these three brothers all seem to do so.

DragonMind

01-11-2008, 09:49

Modern Arnis is a 'trademark' and legally recognized, in the Phillipines, to be owned by the Presas family. It has more to do with probate law in the Phillipines than any family style that the three brothers would have shared as a root system under the instruction of father or grandfather. Pallis Pallis and Crossada were the systemic names that GM Remy used.

If Ernesto and Roberto choose to market it as such, that is their choice. It isn't "wrong" because they own the name and should as family inheritors to Remy's work. That is where it belongs, IMO. But, it also isn't necessarily accurate, historically, if you consider that Remy was taught crossada and palis-palis by his grandfather Leon Presas, from the age of 6 through 14 years old. Then went over to the island of Cebu and began studying
Balintawak under Anulfo Mongcal, Timeteo Marranga and
GM Venancio Bacon, in that order, begining in 1952 through
1959. He was given permission to start his own system by
GM Bacon in 1959.

At that point in time, Ernesto would have been 14 years old.
Remy would have been 23 years old. Remy was in Cebu and Ernesto was still living with their parents in Negros.

When Remy first began teaching Modern Arnis, he was working
out of his own gym and at several colleges on Negros before he
moved to Manilla on Luzon Island. There he taught out of a gym
and at the National College of Physical Education in 1965. If Ernesto was training with Leon, the grand father, and Jose, I believe what he would have been studying was Pallis Pallis and Crossada styles. Ernesto would have 20 years old.

Both Ernesto and Roberto would have learned their art from their father,
Jose Banco Presas, but what they learned and teach is not the same art as their older brother, Remy. And, according to Remy's own statements, Modern Arnis was a system that he asked GM V. Bacon of Balintawak to start, not his father/grandfather.

And, since GM Remy Presas' system was incorporated into the national physical education program of the Phillipino public school system, both Ernesto and/or Roberto would probably have had some early exposure to Modern Arnis through that more so than direct contact with GM Remy.

Now, I am being a stickler for history on this one, I know. I am NOT saying either Ernesto or Roberto did not earn their own respect and rank through hard work and dedication. I am saying that the legal ownership of "Modern Arnis" name in the Phillipines as part of Gm Remy Presas' estate settlement is not the same as all three brothers training in the same martial system and eventually forming their own branches.

The hierarchy of system/style or style/system is a side issue, but as far as I have understood it, System is the major heading that outlines the totallity of material to be instructed, under which an individual would find their particular 'style' through regular practice.

Dan,
My intent is not to sour your announcement. As I said, I'm just a stickler for things like this. You, yourself, in an earler post stated that the three brothers systems should be identified as separate and not under one heading, so, in that, we seem to be in agreement.

I hope that rep's from the Kombatan and Hinagaran systems can join in to describe the nuances of their particular training. NOT in comparison to Modern Arnis, but on their own merits, as it should be. Any GM should be able to stand on his own merits, and these three brothers all seem to do so. I certainly mean no disrespect to any of the Presas family. Perhaps we can continue this discussion in the FMA forum. Maybe it is just writing style, but some of your statements come across as deductions rather than first hand knowledge. I'm simply going by conversations I've had with Dan and others who spent many years with Remy.

tgace334

01-11-2008, 09:56

Interesting stuff. Perhaps Im reading impaired, but what exactly is it that ya'll are debating here?

Dan Anderson

01-11-2008, 17:03

Loki,

Modern Arnis is a 'trademark' and legally recognized, in the Phillipines, to be owned by the Presas family. It has more to do with probate law in the Phillipines
Your source, please?

And, according to Remy's own statements, Modern Arnis was a system that he asked GM V. Bacon of Balintawak to start, not his father/grandfather.
Your source, please. I have him saying that he told Ancion Bacon that he wasn't going to teach his style (balintawak) and was going to form his own system. This is in the video taped interview with Joe Rebelo.

I hope that rep's from the Kombatan and Hinagaran systems can join in to describe the nuances of their particular training. NOT in comparison to Modern Arnis, but on their own merits, as it should be. Any GM should be able to stand on his own merits, and these three brothers all seem to do so.
It's harder than hell to find spare time to get us together to work on the seminar let alone contribute to this discussion. All three of us run commercial schools and are busy, busy, busy. Yes, the three brothers easily stand on their own merits.

Hi Tom,
No debate, really. My first poster hit some people as misleading so I revised it and it did a left turn at Albuquerque and now is in history phase. It's all good. Too bad both of you don't live up here. Love to see you at this event.

All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

loki

01-11-2008, 21:26

Dan,

I'm going to do some digging for referencing on this. Unfortunately, it isn't as easy as pulling internet links since it is a hodge podge of older articles, interviews and sound bites from videos for the Bacon point you are referring to.

As for sourcing the Presas family rights and ownership to GM Presas' "Modern Arnis" system name, that was discussed and posted up on another forum a while back. If you can't find it there, I will see if I can do some digging for another citation of it.

I wish I could be there too. Guess I'll just have to win the lottery....:bow:

Loki,

Your source, please?

Your source, please. I have him saying that he told Ancion Bacon that he wasn't going to teach his style (balintawak) and was going to form his own system. This is in the video taped interview with Joe Rebelo.

It's harder than hell to find spare time to get us together to work on the seminar let alone contribute to this discussion. All three of us run commercial schools and are busy, busy, busy. Yes, the three brothers easily stand on their own merits.

Hi Tom,
No debate, really. My first poster hit some people as misleading so I revised it and it did a left turn at Albuquerque and now is in history phase. It's all good. Too bad both of you don't live up here. Love to see you at this event.

All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

loki

01-11-2008, 21:30

Dan,

We all know busy, believe me. I'm not talking about spending hours holding hands over candle light, here. I'm talking about a reference to an on line source/website or even a brief couple o' paragraph blurbs that summarize what makes each art 'signature' and unique.

It might even be helpful as part of your marketing campaign. In PR circles it's common to give teasers or very brief (because folks are busy all around) descriptors of the 'what' aspect of the 5 W's if it is not commonly known.

I'll see if I can find something to post up here to help out too.

Loki,
It's harder than hell to find spare time to get us together to work on the seminar let alone contribute to this discussion. All three of us run commercial schools and are busy, busy, busy. Yes, the three brothers easily stand on their own merits.

Kasan

01-17-2008, 17:08

jenga

01-18-2008, 10:49

Tim Kashino

01-18-2008, 19:28

If this post is way off topic, I request for the mods to split the thread.

Some of your points don't jibe with other information that has been published regarding Roberto. See the article entitled Hidden but Not Lost at http://www.stickarts.com/articles.html

I have also heard from Dan and others about Ernesto and Remy's collaboration before Ernesto went on to form Kombaton.

I’m not so sure I can buy into the collaboration theory. It is true that at one time all of the Presas brothers were under the Modern Arnis banner, but I would venture to say that it wasn't as collaborative as one might be led to believe. It is a fact that the younger Presas brothers were present and active during the development and conceptualizing of Modern Arnis, but to credit them with major contributions to the art may be an exaggeration.

Let me say this before I go further: I do not wish to take anything away from the personal accomplichments of any of the Presas brothers. I'm writing the following post, I have made every effrot to remain objective in presenting the data contained therein. I mean no disrespect to the remaining Presas brothers or anyone else, though I'm sure somebody somewhere will believe otherwise.

There is a lot of information out there that is quite vague, and even contradictory. However, I have been able to pull a timeline together. I’m posting it here not to take anything away from the two younger Presas brothers (they are accomplished martial arts masters in their own right), but rather to put things in perspective for those of us who seem to accept everyone else’s version of history at face value, no matter how convoluted it may seem.

What we do know is that Remy learned from Leon (grandfather) and "Birong" Presas (uncle), Arnulfo Moncal, Timoteo Marranga and Anciong Bacon. Ernesto states that he learned from Jose Presas (the father), while Roberto cites Remy as his first instructor. According to oral statements from Remy, Jose did not teach Remy because he thought he was “slow”. In reality Remy was a lefty trying to orient himself to a right handed world.

Note: We know who taught Remy. He told us, and other GMs confirmed it. The younger Presas brothers are a bit more vague as to who taught them and when.

We also know that Remy was born in 1936. Ernesto was born in 1945, and Roberto was born in 1947.

When Remy left home at age 14 (1950), Ernesto was 5 and Roberto was 3.

Remy returned home about two years later (1952) and found that the Balintawak training he received enabled him to beat other stickfighters in the area. Remy would have been 16; Ernesto 7 and Roberto 5. After a brief stay at home, Remy left again for Cebu.

In 1953, Jose bagan teaching the family style of arnis to Ernesto.

(Sidebar: The identity of the arnis players that Remy had beaten is unknown. I wonder if Jose might have been one of them. Such an event would have held quite a bit of irony as well as some personal validation for Remy, given that Jose didn’t want to teach the “slow” son. This is purely speculation on my part.)

In 1956 or 57, Remy returned home supposedly with Bacon’s “blessing” to start his own system. This is a pivotal time in the timeline, as 1957 appears to be when the “development” of Modern Arnis officially began. Remy was 21, Ernesto was 12 and Roberto was 10.

(Sidebar: Remy promised Bacon that he would not attach the label “Balintawak” to what he taught. This might indicate to some that he left before he was a “finished” student. Again, speculation on my part.)

In 1961 Remy began teaching arnis as a Phys Ed course at De LaSalle College and the University of Negros Occidental - Recolletos. His teaching position at these institutions took Remy out of Hinigaran and north to Bacolod City, which is a couple of hours by tour bus (several hours by jeepney) – not exactly walking distance. Remy was 25, Ernesto was 16 and Roberto was 14.

In 1969 Remy moved to Manila. Remy was 33, Ernesto was 24 and Roberto was 22.

According to Jose Paman’s book Arnis Self-Defense, “the Presas brothers moved to Manila…traveled to Osaka Japan that year to demonstrate arnis techniques at Expo ’70 (a World’s Fair event)…” That same year, Ernesto established the ARJUKEN Karate Association, teaching Modern Arnis, Shotokan karate, “combat judo”, Okinawan kobudo and kendo. ARJUKEN was an acronym for ARnis, JUdo and KENdo.

Another statement from that same book relates “Shortly after Remy had moved to the United States in 1975, he received press coverage in which he was dubbed ‘the Father of Modern Arnis’ leading people to believe that he was solely responsible for developing the system known as Modern Arnis. In the mean time Ernesto and Roberto remained in Manila teaching their respective methods, also under the term Modern Arnis".

After contemplating various names for his system, Ernesto changed the name of his art to “Kombatan” to differentiate his system from that of his older brother.

Information about Roberto is very sparse and as such he is a rather obscure figure. His relationship in the time line is below:

From http://www.kurtisgoodwin.com/grandmaster_roberto_presas_the_u.htm

“After the loss of both parents Grandmaster Roberto began training with his brother Remy. He said his brother Ernesto wasn’t interested in training in the beginning but eventually joined in and all three trained together. His brother Remy later took on a job relocating him to Cebu where he trained with a few different groups and later establishing his own path. This left Grandmaster Roberto training and working with his brother Ernesto.”

This appears to be the period between 1950 and 1957.

Summarized from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Presas

In 1960 Roberto began training in karate. In 1967 he began training in arnis. In 1972 joined Ernesto as an instructor for ARJUKEN and attained “5th Dan in Arnis.” In 1973, he was promoted to “8th Dan Arnis.”

(Sidebar: For a martial artist to 10th kyu to 8th dan in six years is practically unheard of, and 26 year old 8th Dans are quite rare; which causes me to raise an eyebrow as I say “that’s quite an accomplishment”)

In 1995 Roberto created his system of Hinigaran Arnis de Mano.

I could go further, but I feel that I would be splitting hairs and probably ruffling a lot feathers. My purpose in compiling this information is to show that Remy and Modern Arnis were in the development of the arts of Ernesto and Roberto, not the other way around. To say so would be re-inventing history, IMO.

The notion that “it’s all Presas Arnis” is only partially accurate, and amounts to a braod generalization. Yes, all three brothers carry the name “Presas.” Yes, all three brothers became skilled in arnis. Yes, apparently each system has its root in the old Presas system passed on from Leon, Jose and “Birong” Presas. Given the differences in age and the chain of events, it’s important to ask “who influenced whom.” IMO it is very clear that as Remy was developing Modern Arnis he facilitated the development of his younger brothers and their subsequent arnis systems.

loki

01-18-2008, 23:01

Well structured post Tim. I have compiled a few articles from older hard copy publications (which is what took so long to find them in dusty boxes in dusty garages....) which support your theory concerning facilitation vs. instruction.

I do think that each of the three systems would be interesting to see in action. Remy's, based on what we have learned, definitely lept from the Grandfather/Uncle base and did something that embraced Balintawak as well. But, Roberto and Ernesto would seem like more 'pure' sources of the instruction from the Grandfather/Uncle as well as the Father of the three boys.

Pure speculation on my part, but I would guess that the differences we might see would be:

Grandfather/Uncle: Old school, bare bones, passed down in a less formal setting, focused on skill and fighting.

Father: Old school as well, but more structured and linear in the instructional model because of the pedagogical influence of military training and designing FMA instruction for the Army. Possibly more fundamental and streamline as well. Most of the good military training, regardless of topic or time period shares a KISS aspect to it.

I'll post up my article digging early next week (College starts up again, crazy time). And I would love to see/hear/read anything on Ernesto or Roberto systems to fill in some gaps if anyone knkows.

If this post is way off topic, I request for the mods to split the thread.

The notion that “it’s all Presas Arnis” is only partially accurate, and amounts to a braod generalization. Yes, all three brothers carry the name “Presas.” Yes, all three brothers became skilled in arnis. Yes, apparently each system has its root in the old Presas system passed on from Leon, Jose and “Birong” Presas. Given the differences in age and the chain of events, it’s important to ask “who influenced whom.” IMO it is very clear that as Remy was developing Modern Arnis he facilitated the development of his younger brothers and their subsequent arnis systems.

Tim Kashino

01-19-2008, 00:45

...I do think that each of the three systems would be interesting to see in action. Remy's, based on what we have learned, definitely lept from the Grandfather/Uncle base and did something that embraced Balintawak as well. But, Roberto and Ernesto would seem like more 'pure' sources of the instruction from the Grandfather/Uncle as well as the Father of the three boys...

Well, I have only seen video of Ernesto from his Philippine Combatant Series. Ernesto's system appears to share a similar (if not the same) core of basics. The few video clips from featuring Roberto also demonstarte some similarities. I would venture to say that the similarities stem more from working with their older brother than from the "old school" Presas family system.

This is why I say that:

From http://www.kurtisgoodwin.com/grandma...esas_the_u.htm

“After the loss of both parents Grandmaster Roberto began training with his brother Remy. He said his brother Ernesto wasn’t interested in training in the beginning but eventually joined in and all three trained together. His brother Remy later took on a job relocating him to Cebu where he trained with a few different groups and later establishing his own path. This left Grandmaster Roberto training and working with his brother Ernesto.”

This appears to be the period between 1950 and 1957.

The during that time, Ernesto was between 5 (in 1950) and 12 (in 1957) years of age. He is on record as starting his arnis training with his father at age 8 (1954). This brings an interesting question to light: How much training could Ernesto had under the tutelage of his father? This is what I meant when I alluded to conflicting information.

It would seem that Remy had the "lions share" of training in the the family system being trained by Leon and Birong Presas from age 6 (1942) to age 14 (1950).

I'm fairly certain that what remains of the old family system is found in the "Classical Styles" that Remy taught. I would also be prone to speculate that the single best representation of the family system is represented on Remy's original 6 video tape seriesin the sections demonstrating Classical Arnis, Espada y Daga, Crossada and Palis Palis.

Pure speculation on my part, but I would guess that the differences we might see would be:

Grandfather/Uncle: Old school, bare bones, passed down in a less formal setting, focused on skill and fighting.

Father: Old school as well, but more structured and linear in the instructional model because of the pedagogical influence of military training and designing FMA instruction for the Army. Possibly more fundamental and streamline as well. Most of the good military training, regardless of topic or time period shares a KISS aspect to it.

We'll never really know, but it's a safe guess. The only person that could really tell us is no longer with us.

... I would love to see/hear/read anything on Ernesto or Roberto systems to fill in some gaps if anyone knows.

Me too.

Tim Kashino

01-19-2008, 00:57

But,... Roberto and Ernesto would seem like more 'pure' sources of the instruction from the Grandfather/Uncle as well as the Father of the three boys.

Based on my observations of the available informantion, I would disagree. Everything points to Remy facillitating the training of the younger brothers, IMO.

Tim Kashino

01-19-2008, 04:38

I found another piece of information that contradicts with some of my previous posts. In the back of the Ernesto's first book, The Art of Arnis, there is a picture of Jose Presas y Bonco with the years "1907-1979" under his name.

From http://www.kurtisgoodwin.com/grandma...esas_the_u.htm

“After the loss of both parents Grandmaster Roberto began training with his brother Remy. He said his brother Ernesto wasn’t interested in training in the beginning but eventually joined in and all three trained together. His brother Remy later took on a job relocating him to Cebu where he trained with a few different groups and later establishing his own path. This left Grandmaster Roberto training and working with his brother Ernesto.”

What time period could it be that the statement about Remy leaving for Cebu after the death of both parents? By 1979 Remy was already in the US, he wasn't job hunting in Cebu. I'm confused.

Is this a case of the writers, interviewers and webmasters getting it wrong? Eh, could be.

Dan Anderson

02-02-2008, 15:39

For the sake of oversimplification I'll bet that one of the major differences between Kombatan and Hinagaran Arnis de Mano is the number of weapons that Kombatan uses. I know from various sources that Ernesto Presas has incorporated a buttload of different weapons into Kombatan. He also likes to promote it as a "complete system."

Good research, the both of you. Saves me time. ;) Seminar is exactly one week away and then I'll have on tape some of the differences between MA, K & HAdM. Good fun in a week. All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Rich Parsons

09-20-2008, 22:01

. . .

If Ernesto and Roberto choose to market it as such, that is their choice. It isn't "wrong" because they own the name and should as family inheritors to Remy's work. That is where it belongs, IMO. But, it also isn't necessarily accurate, historically, if you consider that Remy was taught crossada and palis-palis by his grandfather Leon Presas, from the age of 6 through 14 years old. Then went over to the island of Cebu and began studying
Balintawak under Anulfo Mongcal, Timeteo Marranga and
GM Venancio Bacon, in that order, begining in 1952 through
1959. He was given permission to start his own system by
GM Bacon in 1959.

Actually, what I was told by GM Presas and also by GM Buot was that Remy wanted to create his own style. He asked permission from GM Bacon to teach, not to create the style. He asked Bacon out of respect as he was a recognized student and fighter from the Bacon Club/School. GM Bacon told him he could teach but not to call it Balintawak as it was not all what Bacon taught, but also included other teachings from his other instructors.

. . .

Both Ernesto and Roberto would have learned their art from their father,
Jose Banco Presas, but what they learned and teach is not the same art as their older brother, Remy. And, according to Remy's own statements, Modern Arnis was a system that he asked GM V. Bacon of Balintawak to start, not his father/grandfather.

See above for clarification on what he did ask.

. . .

Now, I am being a stickler for history on this one, I know. I am NOT saying either Ernesto or Roberto did not earn their own respect and rank through hard work and dedication. I am saying that the legal ownership of "Modern Arnis" name in the Phillipines as part of Gm Remy Presas' estate settlement is not the same as all three brothers training in the same martial system and eventually forming their own branches.

Sorry, Paul, but I also am a stickler for history.

. . .
Dan,
My intent is not to sour your announcement. As I said, I'm just a stickler for things like this. You, yourself, in an earler post stated that the three brothers systems should be identified as separate and not under one heading, so, in that, we seem to be in agreement.

I hope that rep's from the Kombatan and Hinagaran systems can join in to describe the nuances of their particular training. NOT in comparison to Modern Arnis, but on their own merits, as it should be. Any GM should be able to stand on his own merits, and these three brothers all seem to do so.

I agree also, but clarification is good and not everyone is out with an hidden agenda to get someone else.

loki

09-22-2008, 09:55

Not sure how this fits into the discussion.

I agree also, but clarification is good and not everyone is out with an hidden agenda to get someone else.

It's been awhile since the announcement, I'm interested in feedback from anyone who attended.

W/the line up, it should have been very interesting.

loki

09-22-2008, 10:03