Giri - Thoughts

[Musubi Dojo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giri_%28Japanese%29

Nina's loyalty thread got me thinking about this.

Are you familiar with term?

What does it mean to you? (What would you consider your obligation to an your instructor to be?)

Is it relevant to your practice or even in the martial arts world today?

Cheers
c

[Nina]

Are you familiar with term?
Never heard before.



Is it relevant to your practice or even in the martial arts world today?

How do you imagine to put giri in the context of MA?
Maybe just train in your particular MA, and don`t seek for insights in other MAs?
To `obey` or follow your superior, not only in the Ma, but also outside the dojo?
Pay for him, when you meet outside for a beer?

[Mark Barlow]

Most view martial arts as a hobby and in that context, giri doesn't carry much weight. For those of us who have dedicated our lives to the study and propagation of a particular martial art, it can be a determining factor in how we train.

Ninjo, or personal desires and wants, supersede duty and responsibility for 99% of students. Of course, in a society where the individual is seen as almost always more important than the group (at least from the individual's point of view) that's not surprising.

When you realize that true giri is a 2-way street and that the sensei also has a duty to the student, it doesn't seem so ridiculous.

[shugyo]

Giri, That brings me back...
I first heard about giri, Ninjo, Gi, Misogi etc at a budo theory seminar given by Yamanaka Sensei of Markham Ontrario shortly before my Shodan grading, which I guess would but it just over three years ago.

Giri as I understand it works both ways. Your instructor must be ethical and give you dedication and thus you carry there ON (or something along those lines) and you can never fully repay there ON so you have to keep training hard.

Living the martial way does an excellent job at describing these concepts.

Ben

[Brian R. VanCise]

Most view martial arts as a hobby and in that context, giri doesn't carry much weight. For those of us who have dedicated our lives to the study and propagation of a particular martial art, it can be a determining factor in how we train.

Ninjo, or personal desires and wants, supersede duty and responsibility for 99% of students. Of course, in a society where the individual is seen as almost always more important than the group (at least from the individual's point of view) that's not surprising.

When you realize that true giri is a 2-way street and that the sensei also has a duty to the student, it doesn't seem so ridiculous.

Nice Mark! I think it is a very important concept and yet it seems to be very hard for people from out culture to understand it.

[Musubi Dojo]

When you realize that true giri is a 2-way street and that the sensei also has a duty to the student, it doesn't seem so ridiculous.

This is the part I think is mostly lost.

Can you further define the duties on both sides Mark? (or just give examples)

[David Craik]

'Giri' translates as 'right reason' and stems from Confucian concepts. In China, Confucian ethics made this moral obligation primarily to one's parents and ancestors, while in old Japan warriors mainly held giri toward the Emperor or a feudal lord.

There are extreme chasms of cultural difference, as well as simple differences in situation between what a bushi would consider giri and what we could approximate. A Confucian society is based on community, while we in the West tend to be more individualistic. Since the economy of old Japan was based on the farming of rice, rigid standards of etiquette and ethics were developed as rice farming was at the time very labor intensive and required people to live and work in extremely close quarters. A martial arts teacher in the 1530's would usually be part of or employed by one's clan to whom the student owed absolute fealty, whereas in the West a teacher of any sort is providing a service which you generally pay for which in effect makes the student a 'customer'. For example, we believe the fact that we pay taxes grants us the right to have a say-so in how the government is run, something not the case in the way things were seen in antiquity. Koku paid were an obligation to one's benefactor to assist the common good. 'Giri' can be a dangerous thing when improperly applied to a morally bankrupt or inept superior.

So, to the questions, although I have a degree of loyalty towards instructors and respect for them I cannot say this is truly 'giri' of a sort that a bugeisha had for their clan or I myself had toward the USMC. The only level of loyalty I would even presume to term 'giri' is reserved for my family.

[Mark Barlow]

Let me stress that I tell all of my students that the priorities are Family, Work, Dojo. I don't expect or want someone who will use training as an excuse to slack off on more important responsibilities.

Forrest Morgan's excellent book, LIVING THE MARTIAL WAY, touches on giri. From conversations with him, we both see training with a particular sensei, and by extension, a particular style as a commitment.

By formally becoming a member of a dojo, a person who feels compelled by giri will commit the time and energies to learning that system, supporting the dojo and representing the system in a positive fashion. The instructor is committed to providing practical and effective instruction, supporting the students and the dojo and representing the system in a positive fashion. This is more involved than it might seem. Both student and teacher feel a responsibility to the other that manifests itself in a cooperative effort to become adept in all aspects of the system, not just the "fun stuff", not the easy stuff but everything in the curriculum. The student is saying that I will push myself beyond my prior limits and accept that the sensei has my best interests at heart. The sensei will do whatever it takes to see that the student is able to succeed.

Giri isn't about the sensei mooching off of the student or the student blindly following the sensei. It's about trust and respect, given and received by both parties. Can it be abused? Absolutely. But when a situation exists where both student and teacher acknowledge and understand giri, it creates the possibility for learning and personal growth like no other.

[Musubi Dojo]

Excellent info, thanks guys!

So David you are saying giri is pretty much an archaic concept for MA?

Mark when you talk about giri is that sort of bond between teacher and student a rare thing?

I've read about a third of "Living the Martial Way" but I'm book whore and jump all over the place. I actually started reading it after a post of your's Mark. I'll have to finish it.

What I know of giri sounds like the things I wanted to believe about martial arts when I was a kid, but in my personal experience found to be a mostly a romantic notion.

[Tonersensei]

This sounds like something my Master said to me once: "As Sensei we have a duty to teach, as students you have an obligation to learn." So it really is a two way street if you look at it that way, and that concept can transcend the ages.

[Jonathan Randall]

'Giri' translates as 'right reason' and stems from Confucian concepts. In China, Confucian ethics made this moral obligation primarily to one's parents and ancestors, while in old Japan warriors mainly held giri toward the Emperor or a feudal lord.

There are extreme chasms of cultural difference, as well as simple differences in situation between what a bushi would consider giri and what we could approximate. A Confucian society is based on community, while we in the West tend to be more individualistic. Since the economy of old Japan was based on the farming of rice, rigid standards of etiquette and ethics were developed as rice farming was at the time very labor intensive and required people to live and work in extremely close quarters. A martial arts teacher in the 1530's would usually be part of or employed by one's clan to whom the student owed absolute fealty, whereas in the West a teacher of any sort is providing a service which you generally pay for which in effect makes the student a 'customer'. For example, we believe the fact that we pay taxes grants us the right to have a say-so in how the government is run, something not the case in the way things were seen in antiquity. Koku paid were an obligation to one's benefactor to assist the common good. 'Giri' can be a dangerous thing when improperly applied to a morally bankrupt or inept superior.

So, to the questions, although I have a degree of loyalty towards instructors and respect for them I cannot say this is truly 'giri' of a sort that a bugeisha had for their clan or I myself had toward the USMC. The only level of loyalty I would even presume to term 'giri' is reserved for my family.

Wow.

Great post. I think you are right, many inept and morally bankrupt superiors do capitalize upon the idea of loyalty (see "The Sociopath Next Door"). I think that trying to transplant a culture of century's past upon what is, for the most part, no more than a hobby for most (MA training) is a bit absurd. Of course you are loyal - to those deserving of it; but that is not the same as treating a modern MA instructor as a feudal lord.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Lately it seems that our culture promotes with a passion: what's in it for me! Not what am I learning and how can I give back but only what is in it for me and I want what I want. I had something recently happen that brought this point home clearer than ever.

Now I am not saying that it is not good for a practitioner to know what they want and to go for it. However, it is also important in my mind for a practitioner to maintain ties and to foster good relations. This is what I have always tried to do. The teacher student relationship is a two way street and both have duty and obligation to the other. Once that ends it ends and that my friends is sad.

[David Craik]

So David you are saying giri is pretty much an archaic concept for MA?

Well, of course I cannot speak for all martial arts...can't even speak for one of 'em, really. But I think the crux of the matter lies in how one interprets 'giri'.

I don't define giri as a simple loyalty between teacher and student. Here's an excerpt from 'Bushido' by Inazo Nitobe:

"A feudal lord, unmindful of a sense of obligation to his vassals, felt a sense of responsibility to his ancestors and to the Emperor. He was obliged to act as a father to his subjects, to guard their welfare. The Spanish system of encomienda established in 1503 for colonization of New Spain was almost identical." (emphasis mine)

In this context, there is not really a reciprocal loyalty between lord and vassal (and by extension, teacher and student). In a martial arts (or most other Japanese arts) context one would not feel a sense of duty to the students themselves; the teacher primarily nurtures and trains the students because of an obligation to his ryu. This is similar to the system of apprenticeship - a master may not feel any sense of obligation to the student per se, his loyalty lies to the propagation of his art and in medieval Europe to his guild.

So now that I've muddied the waters the short answer is no, I don't feel it's an archaic concept. Certainly a concept that exists well beyond the sphere of martial arts into nearly every field of endeavor. But I think the distinction between being loyal to the student for the student's sake and training a student the best you can for your art/ryu/superiors' sake is worth noting.

[Mark Barlow]

Excellent info, thanks guys!


Mark when you talk about giri is that sort of bond between teacher and student a rare thing?


I think so. As I mentioned earlier, most people view martial arts as a hobby, not a way of life. If you visit the dojo a couple of times a week and see it as just a different form of exercise, Giri is irrelevant. To be honest, I don't know of many sensei who are willing to uphold their end of the bargain, either.

Forrest trained with me during his last few years in the Air Force. Initially, it was informal and he was more of a frequent guest than true student. After a year or so, we talked and he explained that with his future (he was nearing retirement) uncertain, he had been unwilling to fully commit to Akayama Ryu but when he did join, he showed just the type of dedication you'd expect from him. He was promoted to shodan in 2002. Due to health considerations, he doesn't train anymore but he still supports the Ryu and attends our Camps regularly. In this context, I think Giri can extend even after the student moves away and is unable to train.

Anyone wishing to meet Forrest can join us at our Summer Camp in New Orleans this July. We'll also have our Webmaster, Robert Carver there along with several outstanding instructors from across the country as well as Canada and the Caribbean.

[David Craik]

Mr. Morgan seems like a great fellow and 'Living the Martial Way' is an excellent book, though the whole 'warrior' thing I find a little cloying.

I am sorry to hear he may be in poor health though. The ideas and concepts in his book ring so true.

[Mark Barlow]

Forrest's general health is good. He has joint problems which keep him off the mat.

[David Craik]

It's good to hear it isn't a more serious kind of problem. He would be a neat person to meet, I think.

[Josh Reyer]

First, I have to say I'd feel less than comfortable relying on an article that uses a Transformers episode to illustrate a cultural concept.

Let us not rush to fetishize yet another Japanese word. Giri simply refers to the things you must do as part of interacting with other people. Hence, "giri-choko", chocolate given on Valentine's Day not because you have feelings for someone, but because it's an office thing. "Giri-otosan", father-in-law. Giri is not something just for superiors and subordinates, it's something that's part of every relationship, in some way. It's not something you can choose to have or feel, like loyalty, it is something that's demanded of you by society. Acting contrary to giri is self-centered at best, anti-social at worst.

Teacher-student relationships, particularly in budo, work off of on, not giri. "On" is obligation of a different stripe -- it's the debt you incur to your teacher for his time and effort. You repay this "on" by showing him it was worth his while.

IMO, however, neither "giri" nor "on" should be an issue at all for a Western student learning from a Western teacher. Rather than play Japanese, it would be far healthier and meaningful if they interacted naturally, as their culture dictates.

[Mark Barlow]

I don't think anyone here was attempting to make Giri into some mystical experience. Reading back over all the posts, it seems we're all on the same sheet of music.

It's always good to have feedback and viewpoints from someone who has daily contact with a society that holds so much interest for so many folks on this board. Please continue to share your insights.

[Musubi Dojo]

IMO, however, neither "giri" nor "on" should be an issue at all for a Western student learning from a Western teacher. Rather than play Japanese, it would be far healthier and meaningful if they interacted naturally, as their culture dictates.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

So you're saying the cultural aspects of an MA turn out being a reverse "engrish" sort of scenario?

Where would you draw line? Japanese terminology? bowing? Or just intangible concepts? Where does respect turn into a weird sort of cult?

What Mark said about having someone living in the culture to comment. :D

Cheers
c

[Josh Reyer]

This makes a lot of sense to me.

So you're saying the cultural aspects of an MA turn out being a reverse "engrish" sort of scenario?

Where would you draw line? Japanese terminology? bowing? Or just intangible concepts? Where does respect turn into a weird sort of cult?

What Mark said about having someone living in the culture to comment. :D

Cheers
c
There are certain cultural trappings that I think budo should have to maintain its link to Japan. These are things easily transplanted. Bowing, I think, is fine, because it has an equivalent idiom in Western culture. As gentlemen once bowed to ladies, and as fencers and military people salute, so does bowing function in budo. Likewise, clothes are an easy and tangible way to touch base with an arts cultural roots.

Terminology, I think, is also good, although prone to pitfalls. When a student learns that that front kick they learned is called "mae-geri" in Japanese, that's another cultural connection. When they title a section of their martial art book "Geri waza" (diarrhea techniques), something's gone wrong... I think, then, that anyone deciding to teach terminology has a responsibility to truly understand the terminology, and pass that understanding along to their students. In this case, it would be that "mae" means "front", "keri" means "kick", and when you stick them together it becomes "mae-geri".

Related to this is the problem of concepts. Go to an English martial arts board (even a kendo specific one) and ask what "zanshin" means, and you'll get a bunch of different answers. There's a Xerox effect as each person has it explained to them in a different way, they add their own take on it, and then pass that on. The Japanese, OTOH, have no such confusion because while each art may have a it's own spin on it, the word itself has a basic meaning that's largely understood by everyone. To a certain extent, I think that confusion among Western practitioners can't be helped, but I also think that the martial arts community in general is too lax when it comes to words. I suppose that's my own bias, as I'm a languages kind of guy.

But now, take this basic problem of words and concepts, and now tack on social relationships. This is where I think the real problems are. The dojo equivalent of "engrish" is perhaps unavoidable, but when people start playing with social roles they don't fully understand, I think that's when things are in danger of going towards cults and unhealthy relationships. Particularly in the case of these hierarchal relationships. Japanese spend their whole lives navigating such waters. For non-Japanese, it's ripe for abuse, by both parties. IMO, this is not an aspect of Japanese culture that can really be learned a few hours a week in the dojo.

[Mark Barlow]

For some of us, our involvement with martial arts involves more than a few hours a week. Over the last 32 years, I've had long-term, close relationships with 2 Japanese instructors and trained for extended periods with a handful of others. The first mention I had of Giri was from one of them and it wasn't an attempt to manipulate or abuse the teacher/student relationship, it was to explain why he was willing to drive from Oklahoma to Alabama, spend 8+ hours a day on the mat with me for a week and why he expected me to drive to Oklahoma and invest an equal amount of blood,sweat and tears.

It's very possible that when a Japanese instructor explains giri, zanshin or any Japanese/Budo/Bugei concept to non-Japanese, they use Concept 101 language or Gaijin Explanations for Dummies. I can appreciate the concepts regardless of how fundamental my understanding of them may be.

[Josh Reyer]

For some of us, our involvement with martial arts involves more than a few hours a week. Over the last 32 years, I've had long-term, close relationships with 2 Japanese instructors and trained for extended periods with a handful of others. The first mention I had of Giri was from one of them and it wasn't an attempt to manipulate or abuse the teacher/student relationship, it was to explain why he was willing to drive from Oklahoma to Alabama, spend 8+ hours a day on the mat with me for a week and why he expected me to drive to Oklahoma and invest an equal amount of blood,sweat and tears.

I'm confused. Did you assume I was making reference to your situation? Because I think "Japanese teacher & Western student" is pretty clearly different from the "Western teacher & Western student" scenario I was talking about, even before we got to the obvious difference between long-term, close relationships with Japanese instructors versus "a few hours a week in the dojo". Needless to say, one is much more conducive to grasping aspects of Japanese culture than the other.


It's very possible that when a Japanese instructor explains giri, zanshin or any Japanese/Budo/Bugei concept to non-Japanese, they use Concept 101 language or Gaijin Explanations for Dummies. I can appreciate the concepts regardless of how fundamental my understanding of them may be.

And I never suggested you couldn't. What I'm talking about is "transmission loss", the kind of effect you get from a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a tape. Any one person can certainly go to the source and get an "clean, high-quality copy". I'm talking about when they pass that info on their students and those students pass that info on to their students, and so on. I know a number of people who have good understanding of these concepts and terms. But I'm talking about the community as a whole.

[Nina]

Could anybody please give examples, how giri can be expressed in a student-teacher relationship?

[Harlan]

Well, I should think it depends on the people/dynamic. In my limited training, and as a relative beginner, it's best expressed through practice. No words, genuflections, floor washing, etc.

'Show up and practice.'

Sometimes this is harder than it sounds. ;)