Question

[a student 1st]

Hello, I am currently working on an article for our newsletter and would like to ask for some help regarding a specfic technique.

Is there a technique in Shorinji Kempo that is the same or similar to Ippon-Dori in Daito-ryu or Ikkyo in Aikido? What I mean is a downward strike to the head and the finish is similar to the others.
If so is their a link to some online video so I can see it. I'm comparing the differences in the technique from other styles that trace their history to Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu.


Thanks for any help.

[Rob Gassin]

Hello Stephen,

Could you suggest a link to videos showing the 2 techniques in question. I am not sure what either of them is.

Cheers,

[a student 1st]

Sure thing. The first is from you tube. (if I can do this right)

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=6PmhwHst4po&feature=related

The first technique shown is what the orginal intent of Ippon dori. The next immediate one shown is the Tachi (standing) version of Ippon dori.

This next one is what the Idori (kneeling) version looks like.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0SO8Zl8dxRIfPsAxZn7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTBzNG1sdTB sBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNsawN0aXRsZQRzZWMDc3I-/SIG=14dgcem17/EXP=1209387260/**http%3a//video.search.yahoo.com/video/play%3fp=ippondori%26ei=UTF-8%26fr=slv8-hptb5%26fr2=tab-web%26tnr=21%26vid=1085637277

I hope I posted these right.
Thanks for your help.
Stephen

[Rob Gassin]

Hello Stephen,

The technique illustrated is similar to the 'okuri' technique family. The closest techniques I can think of are okuri yoko tembin and okuri tembin dori. However, neither of these techniques is a defence to an overhead strike. In their basic form, they are both counters to wrist grabs. However, there is no reason why they could not be performed against an overhead strike. The following link is to a basic explanation of the former technique

http://kenseikai.world.coocan.jp/gihou/kihon/yogo-ef.htm

I hope this helps.

Cheers,

[Gary Dolce]

Hello Stephen,

The technique illustrated is similar to the 'okuri' technique family. The closest techniques I can think of are okuri yoko tembin and okuri tembin dori. However, neither of these techniques is a defence to an overhead strike. In their basic form, they are both counters to wrist grabs. However, there is no reason why they could not be performed against an overhead strike. The following link is to a basic explanation of the former technique

http://kenseikai.world.coocan.jp/gihou/kihon/yogo-ef.htm



I think tembin nage, which can be done following hangetsu uke against a straight punch or following uwa uke nage against shuto uchi would be the equivalent Shorinji Kempo technique. I am not aware of any videos of this technique on the web. Of course, it is hard to evaluate the intent of the technique based on a single video, but in both of the example videos the defender seems to move into the attack, stop it, and then attack the arm.

The way I have learned the Shorinji Kempo technique called tembin nage, involves more movement to the side out the way of the attack, followed by a small deflection of the attack which continues immediately into the leverage on the attacker's upper arm, taking advantage of the attacker's forward momentum. In the end, they are similar techniques but with a difference in timing and body movement, at least based on these two videos. Of course those differences might be based on differences in the attack which are not obvious in the videos.

[Gary Dolce]

At 1:39 in this video is an example of tembin nage against shuto uchi during an embu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRc9246qIBg&feature=related

[a student 1st]

Thanks for the replys. Unfortunately neither is what I was looking for. Great video though.
In Ippon Dori you do enter swiftly, stop the attack by driving backward (keeping the attacker off balance) and then use the arm to drive them to the floor. Then finish.
Thanks again for the help.
Stephen

[Gary Dolce]

In Ippon Dori you do enter swiftly, stop the attack by driving backward (keeping the attacker off balance) and then use the arm to drive them to the floor. Then finish.


If entering and stopping the attack by driving backward are fundamental to ippon dori, I can't think of any equivalent Shorinji Kempo technique against a strike. I believe most, if not all, of our throws against strikes use some combination of re-direction, using the attacker's momentum against him, and manipulation of the wrist, elbow, or shoulder.

In ippon dori, how does the defender avoid turning it into a force against force situation in which the stronger person wins?

[Gary Dolce]

In retrospect, my previous answer and question were a bit too hasty. There are Shorinji Kempo throws that can be done entering strongly and stopping the attack - uwa uke nage and oshi uke nage come to mind. In both cases the attack is stopped by catching it early before the attack has reached full speed (answering my question). In both cases however, the block is immediately followed by a very strong atemi to the attacker's body, which also helps unbalance the attacker prior to the throw. In both of these techniques, the defender moves inside the attacker's arm, rather than outside as in tembin nage or ippon dori. Both can also be done with less force against the attacker's arm and more emphasis on blending with the attacker's motion (leaving out the atemi after the block), which is the way I prefer to do them. Likewise, tembin nage can be done with a more aggressive block and strong atemi (either punch or kick) followed by the throw. I think my preference for the version I described earlier, using the attacker's momentum against him, affected my memory of variations on the technique.

[Rob Gassin]

Stephen,

In many respects, Hapkido has more in common with Daito-ryu and Aikido. In fact the style of blocking depicted in the Youtube video you posted, is quite common in that style. If you ask the same question on the Hapkido forum, you are likely to get some interesting replies.

Cheers,

[a student 1st]

In ippon dori, how does the defender avoid turning it into a force against force situation in which the stronger person wins?

You do need to catch the attack early or you would end up in a contest of strength. However if you are late you can do Ippon Dori Ura. Which lets the attack to pass by and you catch the arm blend with the energy and redirect. If you attempt to perform Ippon Dori and you feel if your going to be overpowered you can allow the attacker to push through and go into gyaku dasuki. In it you pass your right arm around the left side of his neck and grasp your right hand with your left and perform a choke, then drive him to the floor. His arm is force upward by your shoulder and trapped.


In many respects, Hapkido has more in common with Daito-ryu and Aikido. In fact the style of blocking depicted in the Youtube video you posted, is quite common in that style. If you ask the same question on the Hapkido forum, you are likely to get some interesting replies.

I read that Hapkido was another "child" of Daito-ryu. I was invited to stop by a local Hapkido school this Tuesday and was planning of asking the instructor the same question.

I'm also supposed to get with a friend of mine that is studing Hakko-ryu and ask the same question again.

Rob and Gary thanks again for the help. I like the disscussion. :bow:

[Koshu]

. . . I'm also supposed to get with a friend of mine that is studing Hakko-ryu and ask the same question again. . . .
Stephen --- The equivalent technique in Hakkoryu is Uchi-Komi-Dori, and for the purposes of this post, "Hakkoryu" refers to Hakkoryu offshoots moreso than the mainline ryu (which I haven't studied, though based on video I've seen of their waza, the following applies to the mainline as well). Uchi-Komi-Dori doesn't utilize the ippon-ken to the flank as typically seen in Daito-ryu's Ippon-Dori. However, depending on a given school's interpretation, the second strike may be a shuto to the attacking arm that transitions into a linear takedown (as demonstrated by Kondo in the first video for which you provided a link) or circular takedown with tai-sabaki more like aikido (at our dojo, both are taught, though we consider the circular takedown to be a henka).

Curious as to how your friend learned it (is he with the mainline?).

[a student 1st]

Thanks for the information. Is there by any chance a video like some where?


Curious as to how your friend learned it (is he with the mainline?).

As for if he is with the mainline, I just don't know. I attended a seminar once at his Aikido dojo where he had his instructor come in from North Carolina. He was Japanese. However I don't remember his name. He covered so many techniques in the hour I can't remember a one. Plus it was over two years ago.

I've not had a chance to meet with him yet. When I do I'll ask for some info on his instructor.
The Aikido school is located in Knoxvile Tn. Their web site is www.knoxvilleaikido.com

Thanks again for the info.

The Hapkido instructor didn't really anything that looked like Ippon Dori. That just shows you how other systems addapt.

Stephen

[David Dunn]

Stephen, you might get a bit of an answer by looking at this:
http://www.unix-d.co.jp/md/_eng/waza/waza.htm

The late, great Mori Doki Sensei.

[a student 1st]

Thanks for the link. I'll be sure and watch the videos.

Thanks again for all the help.

Stephen

[David Dunn]

Stephen,
the video contains some examples of how we do (or aim to do at least) irimi followed by nage. The basic syllabus versions of the waza use atemi, but Mori Sensei used to say that it wasn't true juho if you used atemi. Okuri gote and its variants are the most similar to the waza you showed above. The nearest thing I can think of that really looks similar is ura nage, a defence against koshi nage.